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gardener4life
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by gardener4life »

Well, it's interesting you brought that up. Also you get points for using a scripture and having an honest question. I commend you for your trying to do good.

Before I have said we can do better. I believe there are primarily two camps right now among LDS people. D&C 45 (but also in Matthew 25);56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins. 57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day. (What's interesting to note is the 5 foolish virgins from the very beginning thought they could take from those that are good without putting forth effort. This is a good example of something I'll come back to...)

There are those in spiritual Babylon and there are also those that are really seeking him. I would point out a few differences between them.

First there is the story of the first temple being built. Joseph Smith is told to build it when the Saints have been driven out by persecution, and are ridiculously poor. He's told he will BE under condemnation if he doesn't build it, and that if he doesn't build it he will be denied higher access to the gospel. They are also told it can't just be a log cabin, and that it has to be the best thing that they can build. They even are given a standard such that they didn't even have the skills necessary for the architect to build it, which that person was currently living in Canada and had to be recruited. The Saints had to work very hard and were having a hard time during this point. Can you imagine you know you have to ask them to sacrifice even more, including sacrificing their only china ware to be ground up to be put in the mortar to make the exterior sparkle in the sun?

It's interesting that they weren't wealthy when they sacrificed to build the temple. The building of the temple was important. It helped galvanize the Saints into being unified and helped them see how to work together. It also helped them learn to sacrifice, which is what you need to help the poor, and to not focus on 'keeping riches for themselves' but using them to build others up. Anyone can go to a temple who is living worthy of a recommend and it's always a place of equality. When you work together on something you learn to accept people different than you. It also needed to help the Saints see how important and sacred the ordinances were. Also these Saints are praying that the sacrifice of how the temple is made and how it represents Heavenly Father's love that it will help the spirits of those receiving the ordinances accept them.

It's also interesting that someday we'll be giving recommends to Jewish people who will pass the temple recommend interviews and have a different culture than us (and we'll love them too), and others who aren't quite like us from the other parts of the house of Israel, which means we can and do accept people different than we are.

So back to before...it is true that we shouldn't have our hearts on keeping wealth for ourselves. There are bad examples of the scripture you wrote about in 'adorning churches'. I think I can give you a few examples below.

This is a great example of how not to be, Alma 21:5 Therefore, as Aaron entered into one of their synagogues to preach unto the people, and as he was speaking unto them, behold there arose an Amalekite and began to contend with him, saying: What is that thou hast testified? Hast thou seen an angel? Why do not angels appear unto us? Behold are not this people as good as thy people? 6 Thou also sayest, except we repent we shall perish. How knowest thou the thought and intent of our hearts? How knowest thou that we have cause to repent? How knowest thou that we are not a righteous people? Behold, we have built sanctuaries, and we do assemble ourselves together to worship God. We do believe that God will save all men. (You can feel the pride in the verse and also note the inequality of social status'. Along with loving riches and adorning of churches there is social status issues, and worshiping power rather than God, and in true form a predatory system of society based of living off the backs of others while denying equality and the chance to grow for others.)

4 Nephi 1;24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. 25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. (They are already doomed at this point. They are rejecting truth when they already know truth is good; dangerous.)

Alma 31:19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure. 20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers. 21 Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand. 22 Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer unto God, thanking their God that they were chosen of him, and that he did not lead them away after the tradition of their brethren, and that their hearts were not stolen away to believe in things to come, which they knew nothing about. 23 Now, after the people had all offered up thanks after this manner, they returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand, to offer up thanks after their manner. 24 Now when Alma saw this his heart was grieved; for he saw that they were a wicked and a perverse people; yea, he saw that their hearts were set upon gold, and upon silver, and upon all manner of fine goods. 25 Yea, and he also saw that their hearts were lifted up unto great boasting, in their pride. (Also we read the Zoramites were cast out for being poor.)


But wait there's more;

Woes pronounced upon those who breathe out wrath and strife against the work of the Lord—The Nephite record will come forth in a day of wickedness, degeneracy, and apostasy. (Mormon 8 heading)

We even have a clue about when the judgments of God will be poured out upon us and why. The chapter heading of Mormon 8 helps us see how the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled; "...Woes pronounced upon those who breathe out wrath and strife against the work of the Lord..." or in other words, the judgments of God will start when the government / wicked people band together to stop the work of the temples. Woes are destructions and judgments, (but there will be a chance given for us to repent and also for us to gather as much of the house of Israel as we can.) This can also be tied in with some other things that President Benson and Heber C Kimball have to confirm that it's not just a campfire story.

But we also see that some verses in Mormon 8 are for our day and that he's seeing us. It's very clear that he's seeing us, and visions aren't just parables or made up stories, they are real. Yet another pattern that fits in with other patterns and helps us to see what's happening. Such as in ; verse 35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. So he is talking to us about our day, and those scriptures are referring to the wicked but I think it would be more true and appropriate to say that he is describing 'wicked' rather than a certain classification of denominations when he's describing 37 and 38.

It's also true that Brigham Young is the one told us that future latter day saints won't be able to handle riches. And if we can't handle riches what happens is we start denying a future to the young men (there was at least 1 conference talk with clues to this), to only give opportunities to the wealthy and those wearing fine apparel to try to have an easy life. This will continue to happen while the righteous cry out for relief even while they are being cut off to be denied a future entirely; and one of the biggest examples is by teaching the young women to only marry the wealthy but also there are forms of rejecting the poor too by not allowing ourselves to associate with people at church that we don't consider in our same economic level. The biggest example of this though is what I have seen with how the young women treat young men. Thus we have scriptures about 'smite with a stab the crown of the daughter of Zion', 'The daughters of Zion are cursed and tormented for their worldliness'; future woes ahead, and I think that this is true and showing itself right now. I've seen this my entire life. We see a form of this both without and in the churches but happening in the young women rejecting worthy priesthood holders to instead take to non-priesthood holders who have riches,thinking they can convert him. But this is another form of denying temple blessings to the worthy and obedient and giving them to the disobedient and unrepentant, which is another cause of the doom mentioned in Mormon 8. It is against the laws of heaven to deny the future of an obedient and just person and give it to the disobedient and rebellious.

Mormon 8:41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Well this all true, but I would focus more on the positive scriptures though. We read the dream of Daniel when the stone is rolling forth to fill the whole Earth. This is better for us to dwell on. There may be a day of tests upon us ...well now or in the very near now, but overall the stone will still fill the whole Earth. We want to focus on what's positive instead of the doom and gloom scriptures, even though those are true. It's a beautiful idea that the stone of Daniel will fill the whole Earth, and how many countries we are in currently.

Oh well...I probably will offend someone on accident here. Sorry if that's the case but I've only spoken the truth.

e-eye2.0
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by e-eye2.0 »

I have known a few people fall away from the church and it seemed as one of the beginning problems was City Creek. I never had an issue with it. As I remember the area and mall lost a ton of traffice when the gateway was opened. Even when we visited Salt Lake City we would stop in at the Gateway instead of going to the mall by the temple. Then City Creek was built and guess where we go now to shop, (if we go shopping at all in SLC) it's City Creek. The missionary work alone has been worth it and the entire area receives more traffic. This summer when visiting we just toured temple square with our kids but it's very peaceful in the entire area. I know this is just one aspect of building city creek but it simply never bothered me.

The Lord gives you things and expects you to be good stewards and that includes money. If we can't get out of our head that all things we do are consecrated to the Lord that is where we have the issue. Being a good steward over our money and our jobs is spiritual just as going to church and worshiping is. The world has just made business to be business and spiritual to be spiritual. When people say there is the business side of the church and there is the spiritual side of the church they error - It's all the Lords.

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shadow
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by shadow »

Why do so many here sound like Judas? It's amazing to me. The scriptures are right in front of us- read them! Solomon's temple was quite the expensive building. Nephi lamented that his Temple wasn't as nice because he didn't have all the expensive stuff. The Lord commanded the early saints to build a Temple using nice things, and they were dirt poor. The complainers are on the wrong side of the Lord.

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the dour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

The Temples aren't ours, they are the house of the Lord.

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gkearney
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by gkearney »

There was, for a time during the Benson administration, a drive to build less extravagant temples. Perhaps best know of these were the temples in Denver, Colorado and Freiberg, Germany the latter having been built when Freiberg was still in the German Democratic Republic (DDR or communist East Germany)

gardener4life
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by gardener4life »

"The Temples aren't ours, they are the house of the Lord" <-- I like that answer.

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brlenox
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by brlenox »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm One thing I hear from non Mormons is with all the money used to build and maintain temples they could help the poor so much. So why can't we build humble temples and use the millions saved to help the homeless and starving. When Christ returns will He say wow look how decked out these temples and chandeliers are or will He say why havent you helped your neighbor in poverty and starving children. Couldn't temple ordinances still be done in less lavish buildings? And what do you think Christ wants more, hundreds of tens of millions of dollars palaces or for us to do our best to feed His sheep and help the less fortunate in the world? Even Utah has a serious homeless problem. Sorry for the rant but I just don't understand Jesus wanting luxury.
Think of David and Solomon. Why did they build the finest that man could produce?

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Zowieink
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Zowieink »

The new Tuscan temple is an effort to reduce and contain the cost of sacred edifices. In a way, it was an experiment. Typically, the temple department has a preliminary plan and renderings of the celestial room, ordinance rooms, foyers, baptistery. They are sent to a select group to bid. The bids are not opened publically. Eventually a contractor is chosen. They then work with the temple department to "value engineer" the project. (Many times a temple may be a "pet" project of one of the apostles, at which point it starts to really become expensive). In the Tuscan temple example, the architect was given a budget and mandated to stay within that budget. The contractor and architect worked together to achieve a very cost effective building. The cost was easily 1/2 a comparably sized temple built elsewhere. It came in budget, and on schedule.

The Tuscan temple is described as beautifully simple. The Phoenix temple is elegant and restrained. The Gilbert temple is over the top! a great and spacious building, stunning, opulent.) I think the Church leaders are recognizing that these buildings become monuments to the architects and temple department interior designers and project managers as a "feather" in their collective caps. President Monson was none to happy about the opulence and extreme cost of the Gilbert Temple and told the temple department to never do that again, hence Tuscan's temple restrained budget and schedule. It is still a wonderful building for the work of the Lord, they all are. But for me, I prefer the quietness of simplicity. I don't like the architecture and furnishing screaming for attention when I am trying to concentrate on sacred ordinances.

brianj
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by brianj »

Tuscan temple? The temple is being built in Lazio, near Rome, not in Tuscany. And I understand the first Italian temple is not being built with cost saving measures. The statues for the visitor's center are very expensive and they won't even be in the temple.

I would love to see a temple in Florence, but I don't think Tuscany will have a temple anytime soon.

Sunain
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Sunain »

I think the price of the temples is very relative to the world monetary and commodity pricing. Yes, temples cost a lot, only because businesses and countries have set the price of things. All things on this earth were created by Him for our use. He intends for us to use these materials to build things. We want the best quality in construction and the best materials, why would we not?!

I was lucky enough just recently to visit the newly rededicated Montreal temple. Its a small temple but sufficient for the needs of the members in that area of Canada. The temple was first dedicated on June 4th, 2000 and unfortunately, "On Monday, June 2, 2014, the Montreal Quebec Temple closed for a complete renovation of the interior and exterior. The structure was reinforced, replacing the original wood framing with reinforced concrete and steel. And major repairs were carried out including remediation of a mold problem." Substandard materials and construction was used to build that temple and it only lasted 14 years! There is a perfect example of why we need to use the best materials and building techniques. It costs even more for repairs or reconstruction.

Montreal contractors are well known in Canada for their sloppy jobs. It seems the Rome Italy temple also has a similar problem as they changed building contractors.
On March 25, 2017, the construction of the Rome Italy Temple reached an important milestone with the installation of the angel Moroni atop the eastern spire. The event marked the now-steady progression of construction toward completion under the new general contractor.
http://ldschurchtemples.org/rome/
I remember President Hinckley at conference specifically making a point about the generous donations that are put towards temples. Many of us provide what we can because they do cost a lot but construction work in general costs a lot these days so I am not concerned about the price. Similar issue with Cedar Creek, 1.5billion or whatever, yeah, buildings cost money to build. Is anyone saying that materials should be cheaper or the labour should be cheaper?!
President Hinckley surprised the worldwide satellite-broadcast audience by making the following statement in the closing session of general conference on 4 April 1999:

“I feel impressed to announce that among all of the temples we are constructing, we plan to rebuild the Nauvoo Temple. A member of the Church and his family have provided a very substantial contribution to make this possible. We are grateful to him. It will be a while before it happens, but the architects have begun their work. … The new building will stand as a memorial to those who built the first such structure there on the banks of the Mississippi.”
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/pres ... e?lang=eng

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Yahtzee
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Yahtzee »

brianj wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 8:47 pm Tuscan temple? The temple is being built in Lazio, near Rome, not in Tuscany. And I understand the first Italian temple is not being built with cost saving measures. The statues for the visitor's center are very expensive and they won't even be in the temple.

I would love to see a temple in Florence, but I don't think Tuscany will have a temple anytime soon.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious trying to point out a spelling error, but if not I'm nearly certain Zowieink was referring to the Tucson, AZ temple. It's a common misspelling.
And if you were, the winky face is your friend. :D

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Robin Hood
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Robin Hood »

Zowieink wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 6:38 pm (Many times a temple may be a "pet" project of one of the apostles, at which point it starts to really become expensive).
It is well known that President Hinckley took a very keen and personal interest in the Preston, England Temple. He even collected some earth from the groundbreaking and had his family place it in his coffin. He wanted to be buried with a bit of England, and especially that part of England.

At the time, the trend was for small temples, and I believe that is what we would have got at Preston but for President Hinckley's involvement.
I'm not complaining. :)

The rumour was the Preston Temple project came to £93 million. At the time that was around $150 million.

gardener4life
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by gardener4life »

I find it very interesting that people aren't bringing up the fact that part of why the temples are so BIG, which makes them costly, is so that we don't turn people away and that we can include everyone there. The poor can enter therein if they have a recommend; this will be better than selling our temples to give to the poor (someone will say I didn't say sell the temples, but if enough propaganda persists that temples are too costly some anti will have that as the next step), because the blessings of the temple are as a river of blessings and because it gives them a future. Giving someone some scraps of brood while some administrators steal from the poor funds doesn't give them a future. Which is better, a river of blessings or a a few scraps of bread? Which do you give them then?

So are part of why it's built costly because its meant to attract us to it? And we're meant to be attracted to the temple because it is the river of blessings talked about in Daniel and Revelations.

Why is it so important we include everyone in the temples who are living worthy of its standards? Its because we are not elitists and not exclusionists. We want everyone to be able to have what we have. Why do we want to give them everything we have? Because we know as long as we keep passing blessings down to those below us, blessings will keep flowing to us from above us. This is the principle behind Zion, being pure in heart and not withholding love to others; bear one anothers burdens (have equality) which can also mean share our problems and blessings. How do we bear their burdens and blessings? One way is that we give them access to the same chance for a future that we have? Where does that come from? The temple and following the Lord, and standing in holy places. (Standing in holy places can also not just mean the temple but lifting others up with service...hmm that's interesting we're told to stand in holy places when things start getting closer to Christ's coming and now we have new service programs opening up...I wonder why that is...). We don't turn away the poor or kick them out. (Alma & Amulek visit the Zoramites who were persecuted.) We make the temples so big so that that the poor are included there and so there is enough room for everyone. Why would someone complain about the temples if they are invited to have a place there too?

So there's a reason we make it big enough so that we don't have to turn anyone away, and invite all to enter in. The temple is the one place on Earth where everyone will always be equal.
Last edited by gardener4life on August 4th, 2017, 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

brianj
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by brianj »

Yahtzee wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 2:58 am
brianj wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 8:47 pm Tuscan temple? The temple is being built in Lazio, near Rome, not in Tuscany. And I understand the first Italian temple is not being built with cost saving measures. The statues for the visitor's center are very expensive and they won't even be in the temple.

I would love to see a temple in Florence, but I don't think Tuscany will have a temple anytime soon.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious trying to point out a spelling error, but if not I'm nearly certain Zowieink was referring to the Tucson, AZ temple. It's a common misspelling.
And if you were, the winky face is your friend. :D
Nope, I wasn't being facetious. I don't recall ever seeing Tuscon misspelled as Tuscan, and when I saw "Tuscan temple" I immediately thought about Tuscany and became confused.

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Yahtzee
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Yahtzee »

brianj wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 10:49 pm
Yahtzee wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 2:58 am
brianj wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 8:47 pm Tuscan temple? The temple is being built in Lazio, near Rome, not in Tuscany. And I understand the first Italian temple is not being built with cost saving measures. The statues for the visitor's center are very expensive and they won't even be in the temple.

I would love to see a temple in Florence, but I don't think Tuscany will have a temple anytime soon.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious trying to point out a spelling error, but if not I'm nearly certain Zowieink was referring to the Tucson, AZ temple. It's a common misspelling.
And if you were, the winky face is your friend. :D
Nope, I wasn't being facetious. I don't recall ever seeing Tuscon misspelled as Tuscan, and when I saw "Tuscan temple" I immediately thought about Tuscany and became confused.
You know, I didn't even catch the "a"! My brain saw Tuscon, not Tuscan. Well no wonder then!

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Zowieink
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Zowieink »

Sorry, yes, my fingers and brain are not working together. It is the Tucson Temple.

brianj
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by brianj »

Zowieink wrote: August 4th, 2017, 11:53 am Sorry, yes, my fingers and brain are not working together. It is the Tucson Temple.
I hope you didn't take any offense, and I hope to visit the Tuscon temple one day (just not in May through September!)

I also hope to visit a temple in Tuscany one day. But, given a choice, I would prefer to visit a temple in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I have a fascination with Trieste for some reason.

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Thinker
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Thinker »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm One thing I hear from non Mormons is with all the money used to build and maintain temples they could help the poor so much. So why can't we build humble temples and use the millions saved to help the homeless and starving. When Christ returns will He say wow look how decked out these temples and chandeliers are or will He say why havent you helped your neighbor in poverty and starving children. Couldn't temple ordinances still be done in less lavish buildings? And what do you think Christ wants more, hundreds of tens of millions of dollars palaces or for us to do our best to feed His sheep and help the less fortunate in the world? Even Utah has a serious homeless problem. Sorry for the rant but I just don't understand Jesus wanting luxury.
Good questions. I think we all know the answer - but there may be social or other pressure to do what men want over what Jesus would want.

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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by EmmaLee »

I think the Church leaders are recognizing that these buildings become monuments to the architects and temple department interior designers and project managers as a "feather" in their collective caps. President Monson was none to happy about the opulence and extreme cost of the Gilbert Temple and told the temple department to never do that again, hence Tuscan's temple restrained budget and schedule.
If what you say is true about President Monson, his directive has been ignored, as the brand new Meridian, Idaho temple is every bit as opulent and lavish as the Gilbert temple, if not more so.

Crackers
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Crackers »

Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2018, 8:41 am
CelestialAngel wrote: July 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm One thing I hear from non Mormons is with all the money used to build and maintain temples they could help the poor so much. So why can't we build humble temples and use the millions saved to help the homeless and starving. When Christ returns will He say wow look how decked out these temples and chandeliers are or will He say why havent you helped your neighbor in poverty and starving children. Couldn't temple ordinances still be done in less lavish buildings? And what do you think Christ wants more, hundreds of tens of millions of dollars palaces or for us to do our best to feed His sheep and help the less fortunate in the world? Even Utah has a serious homeless problem. Sorry for the rant but I just don't understand Jesus wanting luxury.
Good questions. I think we all know the answer - but there may be social or other pressure to do what men want over what Jesus would want.
"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.

drtanner
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by drtanner »

Crackers wrote: January 21st, 2018, 9:39 am
Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2018, 8:41 am
CelestialAngel wrote: July 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm One thing I hear from non Mormons is with all the money used to build and maintain temples they could help the poor so much. So why can't we build humble temples and use the millions saved to help the homeless and starving. When Christ returns will He say wow look how decked out these temples and chandeliers are or will He say why havent you helped your neighbor in poverty and starving children. Couldn't temple ordinances still be done in less lavish buildings? And what do you think Christ wants more, hundreds of tens of millions of dollars palaces or for us to do our best to feed His sheep and help the less fortunate in the world? Even Utah has a serious homeless problem. Sorry for the rant but I just don't understand Jesus wanting luxury.
Good questions. I think we all know the answer - but there may be social or other pressure to do what men want over what Jesus would want.
"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.
Not sure what it is going to take to help people understand that its not just about giving money to the poor. There is so much more that goes into this. Do we lack the faith in understanding that giving our best to the Lord, and putting him first and sacrificing to worship him qualify us to receive power and miracles from heaven. Becoming pure in heart is the answer to ridding the world of poverty and that is what the temple is all about. I would spend every last ounce of money for the opportunity for all of us to learn this principle.

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David13
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by David13 »

drtanner wrote: January 21st, 2018, 10:10 am
Crackers wrote: January 21st, 2018, 9:39 am
Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2018, 8:41 am
CelestialAngel wrote: July 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm One thing I hear from non Mormons is with all the money used to build and maintain temples they could help the poor so much. So why can't we build humble temples and use the millions saved to help the homeless and starving. When Christ returns will He say wow look how decked out these temples and chandeliers are or will He say why havent you helped your neighbor in poverty and starving children. Couldn't temple ordinances still be done in less lavish buildings? And what do you think Christ wants more, hundreds of tens of millions of dollars palaces or for us to do our best to feed His sheep and help the less fortunate in the world? Even Utah has a serious homeless problem. Sorry for the rant but I just don't understand Jesus wanting luxury.
Good questions. I think we all know the answer - but there may be social or other pressure to do what men want over what Jesus would want.
"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.
Not sure what it is going to take to help people understand that its not just about giving money to the poor. There is so much more that goes into this. Do we lack the faith in understanding that giving our best to the Lord, and putting him first and sacrificing to worship him qualify us to receive power and miracles from heaven. Becoming pure in heart is the answer to ridding the world of poverty and that is what the temple is all about. I would spend every last ounce of money for the opportunity for all of us to learn this principle.

Actually, as has been pointed out here, it would be impossible to ever rid the world of poverty due to the simple fact that there are people who very much like living in "poverty" because it enables them to live their life as they want to live it.
I have never felt that it should be up to me to believe I have the power, or the money, or the ego or whatever, to take that away from them.
dc

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Mark
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Mark »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 14th, 2017, 10:56 am
5tev3 wrote: July 14th, 2017, 9:25 am
Robin Hood wrote: July 14th, 2017, 3:34 am While that is true, the fact is $1.2 billion is a very small amount compared to the funds and assets the church has at its disposal. Especially over a timeframe of a number of years, which is how that figure is arrived at.
And while an argument can be made in favour of the church's position regarding temples, which is the topic of the OP, we start to get into difficulties when things like City Creek are considered.

That said, we are a church and not a homeless charity.
I'm not an expert on City Creek, I have been there a few times though when I have passed through Salt Lake on business, we'd eat at the Cheesecake Factory. The stickiness of the situation as I see it (and correct me if I am wrong in any way) is that the Church owns that property right smack in the middle of downtown where it affects the lives of the other citizens in the community and the economy as a whole.

What it seems to me happened is that they considered what the property was bringing in revenue-wise for the Church and the value it was bringing to the community and over time they considered plans that could make the best use of the property. When you have expensive land in the middle of a city and a huge structure built on it and need to make big changes, that isn't going to be cheap.

They could simply sell the land and lose control of what gets put there and use up all that money in a given period of time, or they could do a project that would continue to bring in revenue continually. Think of the principle of the talents. While I don't personally like the idea of the church building a mall because when you just spit it out like that it sounds course and definitely unappealing.

However, the facts of the situation are that the church owns that land and they had to make decisions on the value it was in it's current state or if it could be more valuable with some investment and a new strategy. Again, I'm just an outside observer but those are some things to perhaps consider.
So the church is as much of a business as it is a church?
Do a little research on what Zion will be like. In fact look into how the temple will be laid out in Jackson County. Do you think the Lord cares about how much it might all cost? All things are the Lords. We are only worthy or unworthy stewards. Temples are not edifices of Babylon. Nothing is to good for the Lord. The streets of the Celestial kingdom appear to be paved with gold. Just think of how much that would cost.. ;)

Juliet
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by Juliet »

I don't know the answer, but I do know that my heart will ache until the day there is no more poor among us. I am aware that good intentions to help does not always help and sometimes tough love is the best way to help people. If I had all the money in the world I would feed the hard workers and the parasites. Even if it ended up being wasted time and time again. I suppose I am foolish in that way. The cities spend so much money on trees in parks and along streets. It bothers me that we don't plant fruit trees so there will be free food for the community.

We are just a church full of fallen people looking for God. Maybe once we find Him, we will be able to help others. But the church is for the poor in spirit and we need help too. The beauty of the temple gives me hope there is a better world beyond this one. I am grateful for its beauty while at the same time aching for those who suffer in poverty. In the end, it will be creating a foundation of righteous principles that will end poverty once and for all. In this way, what we do with our spiritual lives is important. When we create a temple of love in our church, and then home, and then physical bodies, then we will have created abundance spiritually and then what has been created spiritually will become physical.

Should we throw away all the diamonds and rubies just because most rocks are dirt and sediment? Or should we cherish them as an example of what future dirt may someday mineralize and become?

davedan
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by davedan »

Are LDS Temples too expensive?

Short answer = absolutely not.

Long answer:
1. Temples should be built as nicely as is reasonably possible, because it shows the value we place in them.

2. Temples in 3rd-world countries should be just as nice as anywhere else in the world so that a family living in a hut with a dirt floor and have just the exact same wonderful experience in the temple as the wealthiest member in Salt Lake or anywhere else.

3. Judas complained about the expense of the alabaster flask and ointment the women used to anoint Christ feet saying that the ointment could have been sold and money given to the poor. This was Judas' hypocritical attitude just before betraying Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

4. The temple is the answer/solution to global poverty.

5. Temples are embassies of the Celestial Kingdom and are the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Endowed members are its ambassadors.
Last edited by davedan on January 21st, 2018, 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mcusick
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Re: Are temples too expensive?

Post by mcusick »

brianj wrote: July 13th, 2017, 10:37 pm When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts
$1.2 billion in what time-frame?

Answer: 30 years

People complain about the American Red Cross, but if you are concerned with humanitarian aid they give significantly more away:

Numbers from 2016 (http://www.redcross.org/news/press-rele ... -Donations)
$1,736.3 million - Collect, test, manufacture and distribute approximately 6.8 million blood products
$332.8 million – Respond to disasters – nearly 64,000 per year
$65.2 million – Provide more than 369,000 emergency services to our armed forces and their families
$148.3 million - Deliver preparedness, health and safety courses like First Aid and CPR
$119.7 million – Fund international relief programs
$33.2 million – Fund community services (e.g., food banks, transportation programs)

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