Making Your Calling and Election Sure

[Yod]

Is there a difference between being baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and being visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost?

If there is, might the one be mistaken for the other?

If there is not, why are there two phrases for the exact same thing?

[Mark]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Mark,

Serious question here ---
Do you believe that a person can have their calling and election made sure without receiving the 2nd anointing ordinance in the temple, or is that ordinance necessary?
Also, if a married couple does receive the 2nd anointing ordinance, have they had their calling and election made sure?

I had a friend several years ago who was somewhat obsessed with knowing more about the 2nd anointing, and how necessary it might be to attain exaltation in the highest kingdom. Therefore, I did a lot of research into the subject, as well as asking a few temple presidents about it, but I never felt I had a clear answer. I am not asking you to provide the definitive answer, I am just wondering what your personal belief is (I will not mock it) as it seems you have also done a lot of reading on the subject.

Thanks!

Here is an interesting article for you to read about the 2nd anointing ordinance Lizzy. Lisle Brown has also written in the past extensively about this ordinance. I enjoy ready about early church practices and feel inspired at seeing the hand of the Lord in guiding the fledgling church. I am indebted to its early faithful Saints and leaders who remained faithful and who followed the inspiration they received in establishing the Kingdom for all of us to benefit from. I do have a witness that the Lord continues to guide and direct us today through Living oracles who continue to seek for the Lords will in our modern world. Some early more common practices like 2nd anointing are not as prevalent today and I have my own thoughts on reasons behind that. I do feel that there are very distinct differences between calling and election being made sure which is done between an individual and the Lord and 2nd anointing. I know the Lord will not withhold any blessing or right from his children into the eternities if they will remain faithful to Him and honor their sacred covenants made at baptism and in the Lords house Regardless of whether ordinances like the 2nd anointing are administered in mortality.

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[Finrock]

My responses in blue:

You asked the following of Obrien:



My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart. Finrock. Do we have a prophet of god or don't we? Are we supposed to listen and heed his counsel or not? You keep ignoring the fact that for LDS, listening to the counsel of the prophet is not a matter or maybe I will or maybe I won't, I'm supposed to listen to him and I should heed his counsel.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

Do you understand the point of this post of mine that you are quoting? From your responses in blue it appears to me you've missed the point. Before I invest time in responding to comments that are missing the point, are you sincerely interested in knowing what I am saying? I don't mind conversing, but we have to make sure we are understanding one another and I don't think you understand what it is I am saying based on what you are asserting and asking of me.

Also, write this down somewhere or commit it to memory: I am a true believing Mormon, active and happy in the Church. One could claim here that I am equivocating, but I would say I'm reclaiming the meaning of a true believing Mormon from those who have hijacked this phrase or acronym.

You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.

?

-Finrock

I guess I'm missing your point, but please don't try to explain it to me. I'm afraid that you are a conundrum. You say you are 'tbm', but you criticize tbms. I never said you were disaffected, disloyal or apostate, all I know is what you write. I said you sound judgmental and critical of others that you accuse of only putting on a show of religiosity. If you think I'm wrong, you might want to read through your own posts. Maybe you are not expressing yourself as you'd like to. Maybe you are sending messages you don't mean to send. There seems to be a disconnect in how your perceive your own views and how I and others perceive your views.

Here's a thought: If you want others to believe you are 'TBM' maybe you could refrain from constantly criticizing those you identify as 'TBM'.

I'm not interested in proving myself to you, AI2.0. I'm interested in a sincere dialogue. If you want to make assumptions and mischaracterize my words so that you can judge me, that is your problem, not my problem.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself as I like and clearly there is a disconnect in how you perceive my views. But I'm sincere and I'm ready to converse with any sincere party who is also interested in dialoging on equal terms. I'm ready to clarify anything that I've written with a person who is sincerely interested in understanding and dialoging. If you don't fit the bill, then don't participate. There are many others on this forum who are happy to engage in a sincere dialog.

If I'm constantly criticizing TBM, then I'm constantly criticizing myself. I'm not afraid to look in the mirror. But, you mischaracterize my words once more because I'm not constantly criticizing TBM. I'm criticizing pharisaical notions and dispositions and attempting to identify what in my view constitutes the true meaning of religion.

-Finrock

[seekingtruth]

There is a perception that having your calling and election made sure means that you have gotten to the point where you no longer sin or that you are exempt from sinning or from making mistakes. There is a lot here to be said but I want to keep this simple so understand that I'm not being extremely thorough in my explanation but don't think that I'm neglecting the whole just because I'm not mentioning it right now.

Before we can have our calling and election made sure we must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. This is an event that occurs at some point in our life. It may occur at the time when we are baptized by water and are then confirmed. It may happen after. We may be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and not know it. Meaning, we might have had an experience that we recognized as something powerful, real, and true, yet we did not associate that experience with being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Now, given these things, there must come a point in a person's life when they receive this gift of the Holy Ghost. We receive it by having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must also receive it in the sense that we must recognize the gift that has been given or we must realize and recognize that we have been given a gift. The scriptures give us the answer as to how we can recognize that we have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets have described it as having a mighty change of heart. A burning in the bosom. Being overcome by the Spirit. Having our nature changed. All of these are descriptions of the event of being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. I want you to know and anyone else who is reading my post, that I know, I understand, I acknowledge, and I recognize that prior to having one's calling and election made sure, one must have a mighty change of heart and have their nature changed. In several posts in the course of several months I have testified and spoken to this fact. If people are being genuine, sincere, and are paying attention to what I have been writing, they will see that this has been my position all along.

Having a mighty change of heart or having our natures changed is a real, concrete, and a literal thing which is perceivable and palpable. One way to describe this is that prior to having your nature changed, you struggled to do good. You had to strive and you did good out of a sense of duty or maybe because your priesthood leader challenged you to do good, like do your home teaching. Maybe you were motivated by guilt or maybe you were motivated by a desire to please your leaders or maybe you were motivated by a desire to be seen as a good Mormon or maybe you were really trying hard to do good even though you didn't really feel it or didn't feel the love. But, you were struggling to do good. This is how it is when we are in a carnal state or when our natures have not yet been changed by fire and the Holy Ghost. After our having this mighty change of heart or after having our natures changed, we will feel a natural disposition, desire, and willingness to do good because of a love of God and a love of others. Our desires, our motivations, have changed. Another way to describe this is that we got to a point in our life where we recognized we are nothing and that we have fallen short of God's glory and we recognize completely that we are hopeless sinners, unworthy to be in the presence of God. Let me pause here and say that this is true of everyone, no matter how righteous you think you are, you are in fact an unprofitable servant. Not everyone realizes this yet, but eventually they will. But, going back to what I was saying...We felt this sense of our own nothingness and our own filthiness and maybe in this state of depression or state of self realization you called out to God and to Christ to have mercy on you. When your heart was sufficiently broken and your spirit sufficiently contrite and when you called out to God in this state, something wonderful happened. All of a sudden you were overcome with this complete feeling of acceptance, love, joy, and forgiveness. You suddenly realized that God has this unrelenting, undying love for you and He forgives you. You recognize that even though you have been so unfaithful and adulterous in your relationship with Christ, He, Christ, has never faltered or waivered from His loyalty and faithfulness to you. This recognition overwhelms you! How can it be that someone can have such mercy, such love, such goodness towards a person who has been so filthy, so vile, and so unfaithful? It boggles the mind and it overwhelms your heart. In fact, perhaps at this point you begin to sob and to cry because of this immense feeling of love, acceptance, and forgiveness from Christ. It is at this point that something wonderful and something miraculous has occurred: God has made you clean, forgiven you, and has performed a mighty work and a wonder by replacing your stony, sinful, carnal heart with a heart of flesh. Less poetically stated, God has made you a new person. You have been born again. You have been born of the Spirit, been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and you have been changed forever. You will be in a spiritual high for some time...but...eventually you recognize that all is not done. Eventually you recognize that you are still encompassed about by sin and decay. Eventually you recognize that although a mighty miracle has been performed, you are still full of weaknesses and still prone to sinning. But, you also know now that God is quick to forgive and quick to apply His mercy upon you. Our trials will increase, new tests will arrive, and if we continue down the path that we are on we will be sealed up unto eternal life. Joseph Smith was a very flawed individual. Abraham was a very flawed individual. Many in the scriptures who we know received the promise were very flawed individuals, yet, they received the promise. What does it mean to prove oneself? What is time to God? Are we really demonstrating to God our faithfulness, He who knows the beginning from the end? Or is it really about us believing, accepting, and recognizing the faithfulness, the power, the might, the glory, and the goodness of Christ and the Father?

Finally, God does not lie. Once He makes a promise to you, He means it. He doesn't waiver, falter, or fail. We will continue to sin. We have been conceived in sin and we live in sin. Yet, the promise remains, even if you backpedal. Unless you commit the unpardonable sin, once your calling and election has been made sure, you will have eternal life. You will be saved and will receive your exaltation.

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

2 Nephi 4:
15 And upon these I write the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heart pondereth them, and writeth them for the learning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

Helaman 5
41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.

42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.

43And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.

44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

45And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.

46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea, a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:

47 Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.

48 And now, when they heard this they cast up their eyes as if to behold from whence the voice came; and behold, they saw the heavens open; and angels came down out of heaven and ministered unto them.

49 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt.

50 And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people, declaring throughout all the regions round about all the things which they had heard and seen, insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced of them, because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received.

51 And as many as were convinced did lay down their weapons of war, and also their hatred and the tradition of their fathers.

52And it came to pass that they did yield up unto the Nephites the lands of their possession.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

Mosiah 4
1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them.

2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them...

...20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

Alma 36:

My son, give ear to my words; for I swear unto you, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land.

2 I would that ye should do as I have done, in remembering the captivity of our fathers; for they were in bondage, and none could deliver them except it was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and he surely did deliver them in their afflictions.

3 And now, O my son Helaman, behold, thou art in thy youth, and therefore, I beseech of thee that thou wilt hear my words and learn of me; for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.

4 And I would not that ye think that I know of myself—not of the temporal but of the spiritual, not of the carnal mind but of God.

5 Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been born of God I should not have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy angel, made these things known unto me, not of any worthiness of myself;

6 For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.

7 And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did tremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the fear of the Lord came upon us.

8 But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.

9 And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.

10 And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of three days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.

11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.

12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

14Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

25Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;

26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.

27 And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has delivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still deliver me.

28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.
29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of bondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.
30 But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence. Now this is according to his word.

[Mark]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.

[Finrock]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.

May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Writing in the proud, thin skinned self righteous manner that you always do, I'm sure you will not be able to see the irony and inconsistency between these 2 posts of yours, but I am sure others will appreciate it.

1)

You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.

2)

May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

hmmmmm....

Regards,

George Clay

[Mark]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.

May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

So typical. Instead of addressing the points made by John Pontius in my quote of him You pick out one summation word of my post as it pertains to communicating sacred things to others and then go on to lecture me about the inappropriate nature of my use of the word "inappropriate". It appears to me you are more interested in deflecting from his points than you are in addressing them honestly. So be it. I would normally just shut this conversation down but there is an important point I am trying to make here even if you are not interested in addressing it. I will use your own post you made on the Elliaison board to illustrate one of those points. After explaining your past sexual and emotional abuses at the hands of family members of which I was very sorry to hear of and then outlining your Spitirtual experience as you sought for relief from all your pain and suffering you then go on to explain how you received your calling and election made sure by saying this:

"My trials did not cease however, after this experience, but I was filled with great strength and giving power and knowledge that has allowed me to endure. One I had a particularly bad experience in my relationships. I felt totally abandoned, sorrow, and I was feeling alone again. I prayed to God and I asked Him to comfort me and that I needed His strength. It was during this prayer that I was again filled with the Spirit, but this time it was this engulfing feeling of warmth and love and tenderness and mercy and goodness and kindness. I knew it was Heavenly Mother. She entered my heart, knowing that I have been abandoned by my earthly mother, and she told me at that time that She would never abandon me. I felt and saw in my mind this image of Heavenly Mother busting through all the darkness and all crap that was there in my life and She was telling me that I had suffered enough and She would not have none of that any more. I felt and I knew at that point that I was now Hers. She comforted me and gave me relief. Enough was enough and I have been saved. I will not be abandoned again, not by Her. She will never abandon me. I did not immediately recognize this as my calling and election but as I continued to read and study and ponder the thought kept coming to me that I have been saved. Thanks, in part to what I had read from Amonhi, I put together this experience with my calling and election. I did not want to just be making something up and so I didn't commit to the thought for a long time. I didn't speak to anyone about it (except anonymously). I didn't want to commit to this being my C&E but as I continued to ponder and to pray in my heart, the thought just kept coming to me and my reasoning was, if Heavenly Mother is not going to abandon me and if I am Hers, how is this not an assurance of eternal life. Finally, I came to accept that this was indeed my C&E. I prayed and asked. But, more than anything else, I feel in my heart that I am saved. I feel in my heart that God will be there for me. I feel in my heart that He has accepted my sacrifice and I know that I will not abandon Him/Her just as They will not abandon me. I feel peace and an assurance of a promise made."

Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.

I would also point out the legitimacy of Bro. Pontius statement regarding sharing intimate spiritual experiences such as having ones calling and election made sure with those who are prepared to hear such sacred and holy things. There is much counsel that has been given for our benefit scripturally and through our Prophets outlining the value of protecting our sacred experiences from those unprepared to hear and understand them. Discernment is paramount as we do so.

[Finrock]

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.

May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

So typical. Instead of addressing the points made by John Pontius in my quote of him You pick out one summation word of my post as it pertains to communicating sacred things to others and then go on to lecture me about the inappropriate nature of my use of the word "inappropriate". It appears to me you are more interested in deflecting from his points than you are in addressing them honestly. So be it. I would normally just shut this conversation down but there is an important point I am trying to make here even if you are not interested in addressing it. I will use your own post you made on the Elliaison board to illustrate one of those points. After explaining your past sexual and emotional abuses at the hands of family members of which I was very sorry to hear of and then outlining your Spitirtual experience as you sought for relief from all your pain and suffering you then go on to explain how you received your calling and election made sure by saying this:

"My trials did not cease however, after this experience, but I was filled with great strength and giving power and knowledge that has allowed me to endure. One I had a particularly bad experience in my relationships. I felt totally abandoned, sorrow, and I was feeling alone again. I prayed to God and I asked Him to comfort me and that I needed His strength. It was during this prayer that I was again filled with the Spirit, but this time it was this engulfing feeling of warmth and love and tenderness and mercy and goodness and kindness. I knew it was Heavenly Mother. She entered my heart, knowing that I have been abandoned by my earthly mother, and she told me at that time that She would never abandon me. I felt and saw in my mind this image of Heavenly Mother busting through all the darkness and all crap that was there in my life and She was telling me that I had suffered enough and She would not have none of that any more. I felt and I knew at that point that I was now Hers. She comforted me and gave me relief. Enough was enough and I have been saved. I will not be abandoned again, not by Her. She will never abandon me. I did not immediately recognize this as my calling and election but as I continued to read and study and ponder the thought kept coming to me that I have been saved. Thanks, in part to what I had read from Amonhi, I put together this experience with my calling and election. I did not want to just be making something up and so I didn't commit to the thought for a long time. I didn't speak to anyone about it (except anonymously). I didn't want to commit to this being my C&E but as I continued to ponder and to pray in my heart, the thought just kept coming to me and my reasoning was, if Heavenly Mother is not going to abandon me and if I am Hers, how is this not an assurance of eternal life. Finally, I came to accept that this was indeed my C&E. I prayed and asked. But, more than anything else, I feel in my heart that I am saved. I feel in my heart that God will be there for me. I feel in my heart that He has accepted my sacrifice and I know that I will not abandon Him/Her just as They will not abandon me. I feel peace and an assurance of a promise made."

Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.

I would also point out the legitimacy of Bro. Pontius statement regarding sharing intimate spiritual experiences such as having ones calling and election made sure with those who are prepared to hear such sacred and holy things. There is much counsel that has been given for our benefit scripturally and through our Prophets outlining the value of protecting our sacred experiences from those unprepared to hear and understand them. Discernment is paramount as we do so.

I don't disagree with Pontius. However, clearly there are examples of individuals who have shared sacred spiritual experiences. We find them all over the scriptures. Detailed, intimate, spiritual experiences. I don't disagree with discernment. But, who is the judge as to what is or is not appropriate to share or when to share it? There are people who feel it is inappropriate for me to discuss my childhood abuse. It makes them feel uncomfortable. I use to feel uncomfortable doing it too. I didn't want to put myself out there and become a target of derision and of being misunderstood. However, I've overcome that particular vanity in my life. I'm willing to sacrifice my reputation and put it all on the line to testify of the goodness and greatness of God. I am not afraid of what others might think of me or how they might judge me because I know God has my back. I've been down that road of keeping myself closed up not allowing myself to be vulnerable and it did not produce good fruits. The Spirit prompts me to say and to testify and to share of the experiences that I have because ultimately they show the goodness and the greatness of God. I have my calling and I have my job and task to do in this life. You have yours. I won't judge you for not sharing intimate spiritual experiences or things in your life that show you are vulnerable. I understand that it takes courage and guts to reveal weaknesses for others to judge, to ridicule, or to mock. For you at this stage in your life it may be inappropriate, but to take your personal/cultural/societal centric view and then conclude from that view that it is intrinsically inappropriate to share intimate spiritual experiences is just silly. But, you take it a step further and make this circular argument that inappropriate broadcasting of sacred experiences is a good indicator that what is being communicated is false. That's nonsense, my friend.

Whatever I have written about my personal experiences has been as a result of the Holy Spirit prompting me to write it, therefore it is has not been inappropriate. When God says to do something, it is good and best to obey, despite the personal risks one might endure for doing so.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

I'm not interested in proving myself to you, AI2.0. I'm interested in a sincere dialogue. If you want to make assumptions and mischaracterize my words so that you can judge me, that is your problem, not my problem.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself as I like and clearly there is a disconnect in how you perceive my views. But I'm sincere and I'm ready to converse with any sincere party who is also interested in dialoging on equal terms. I'm ready to clarify anything that I've written with a person who is sincerely interested in understanding and dialoging. If you don't fit the bill, then don't participate. There are many others on this forum who are happy to engage in a sincere dialog.

If I'm constantly criticizing TBM, then I'm constantly criticizing myself. I'm not afraid to look in the mirror. But, you mischaracterize my words once more because I'm not constantly criticizing TBM. I'm criticizing pharisaical notions and dispositions and attempting to identify what in my view constitutes the true meaning of religion.

-Finrock

Your response below to Mark's sharing a quote with you, helped me determine the value of this discussion;

May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.


You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.

So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.

[Finrock]

Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.

Thank you for being happy for me.

When I was a missionary and to this very day, I was taught and I taught those investigating the Church to not take my word for it. I invited them to ask God with faith and with sincerity, in the name of Jesus Christ, so that they could know that the things I was teaching them were true through their own experiences. We as Mormons ask people to explicitly and to only trust the spiritual feelings that they receive from the Holy Ghost. There is no other way for a person to know the truth of anything, be it if God is real, if the Book of Mormon is true, to if one has their calling and election, unless they have received a witness and a knowledge of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit that matters most. We invite people to make life altering decisions based purely on a spiritual feeling that they will receive in their hearts and in their minds if they ask God in faith and in sincerity to know the truth of all things.

There is not shortcut, but there are eternal principles that apply and we can rely on the Holy Ghost. We don't need to be afraid of the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.

Good counsel and a good way to approach people.

You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.

I do have things to teach others, especially the things that the Spirit has asked me to teach and to say. For sure I am a teacher for those who hear, I just don't always know who those people are. Some people don't have anything that they can teach me. Some people do have things that they can teach me.

So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.

You're welcome.

-Finrock

[Mark]

I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.

Good counsel and a good way to approach people.

You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.

I do have things to teach others, especially the things that the Spirit has asked me to teach and to say. For sure I am a teacher for those who hear, I just don't always know who those people are. Some people don't have anything that they can teach me. Some people do have things that they can teach me.

So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.

You're welcome.

-Finrock

I have a suggestion for you Finrock and Amonhi and all the other people who feel a need to "teach" others about sacred and eternal doctrines of the gospel. Why not let the Spirit of the Lord be their teacher? Isn't that the proper way and method that has been set up by the Lord for people to learn the mysteries of the Kingdom? Point people to the Spirit and let Him teach them according to their level of preparation and faith. Don't supplant the true source of light and truth.


9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

[diligently seeking]

Mark, truth is-- in our mortal probation, according to our "level of preparation and faith / the softness or hardness of our heart" when truth is expounded according to how doctrine is expounded we will either be "illuminated(changed) by the LIGHT of the everlasting word" or will not.

It has been my heart hurting observation that every ward I have ever attended the majority of members (remember majority represents 51% or more) do not reflect "blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after rightousness for they shall be filled with the holy ghost". The majority will take what their Bishop expounds over the pulpit as truth vs knowing and being able to discern truth correctly because they ( along with what they're being taught in church) are independantly feasting upon the words of Christ which would teach them all things that they should do.. My bishop last Sunday said we are agents unto our selves to affect change and that we should not soley rely on the grace of Christ. He loves to talk about ascending through work work and work. He speaks around the edges of the atonement.

What a blessing to have our level of faith and preparation be to the point where we can move forward to know truth by the witness of the spirit vs being spoon fed through, too often, the falability of the flesh.


D&C84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

D&C 93:

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the LIGHT.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the LIGHT is under condemnation.

Edit: make no mistakes my Bishop is a good man. It simply is too easy for myself / the least saint all the way to upper echelon ranks of church to error for one reason or another... Christ is the sure rock that we should be founded upon. All other foundations are sand. All the more reason to be learned through study and prayer and fasting-- filled with the gifts of the spirit and free flow of pure intelligence like the sons of Mosiah were = SURE DISCERNMENT !

Alma 17
1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.
2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God...

[diligently seeking]

2 Nephi 31
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

[marc]

Mark's advice to let the Spirit be our guide is good. Sometimes, though, one is moved upon by the Spirit to bear witness of one's experience and let people take it or leave it. I still feel moved upon by the Spirit to offer up my witness from time to time.

D&C 123:13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—
14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.
15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

[marc]

This is purely semantic, but I have difficulty with the phrase make/making your calling and election sure. We can't make anything sure, only the Lord can do so.I strongly desire to have my calling and election made sure, and I hope that I am worthy of that blessing while in mortality.

I just read this. We can indeed make it sure, else the apostle Peter and Joseph Smith would not have said so. Although only God can save us, it is we who must choose to be saved. It is we who must choose to act while in the flesh. We must desire it and not only desire it but come unto it. We must obey and labor and sacrifice. If we are to be acted upon, we must first act. Hoping alone is insufficient.

[BackBlast]

With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.

I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.

They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.

[Finrock]

With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.

I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.

They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.

Good points. Thanks for sharing.

-Finrock

[diligently seeking]

With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.

I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.

They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.

Great stuff! Thank you for sharing.