The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

No, they did not want their children mortal, nor did they hope to die themselves. They were deceived by the devil. "The serpent BEGUILED me" "Beguile" means to deceive.

Have you not read 2 Nephi. He tells us very clearly that death is a very important part of our eternal progression.
That without it, we would be damned.

Adam and Eve clearly wants us to progress and they were willing to risk death after achieving immortality for themselves, to become mortal temporarily so that we would have a mortal probation in which to prepare ourselves for that which they, Adam and Eve, have achieved.

[BeNotDeceived]

. missed

Oftentimes, a short sentence carries more meaning that a whole paragraph.

Iron sharpens iron, is a sentence used for the title of a radio show, that discusses the subject for hours on end.

Other examples are, "A picture is worth a thousand words" & "Rolling Waters". Is that a sentence? Regardless, it's two word's that aptly express a vital concept.

"and subdue it" from Genesis is something we may read many times, but our failure to heed it's command, must mean the significance thereof, has alluded us. That, or TPTB lead us along like the frog slowly cooking on the stove.

A Reason for the Repetition - New Era October 2016 - new ...
LDS.ORG - New Era
... for something new—new excitement, new entertainment—that we forget that
the Lord's pattern is consistent, and oftentimes repetitive, spiritual ...

That is one hit of many, from lds.org, just click down the list, as scriptures searches are at the top, just as they should be.

[brlenox]

. missed

Oftentimes, a short sentence carries more meaning that a whole paragraph.

Iron sharpens iron, is a sentence used for the title of a radio show, that discusses the subject for hours on end.

Other examples are, "A picture is worth a thousand words" & "Rolling Waters". Is that a sentence? Regardless, it's two word's that aptly express a vital concept.

"and subdue it" from Genesis is something we may read many times, but our failure to heed it's command, must mean the significance thereof, has alluded us. That, or TPTB lead us along like the frog slowly cooking on the stove.

A Reason for the Repetition - New Era October 2016 - new ...
LDS.ORG - New Era
... for something new—new excitement, new entertainment—that we forget that
the Lord's pattern is consistent, and oftentimes repetitive, spiritual ...

That is one hit of many, from lds.org, just click down the list, as scriptures searches are at the top, just as they should be.

Be Not Deceived - I find sometimes that your posts are a bit enigmatic. Which is fun as I pride myself on being able to deduce some degree of intent from just about anything someone writes well except for Aussie Oi when he was around. Anyway, sometimes I will read yours over and over trying to discern what you are indicating ... sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't but it is always a fun puzzle nonetheless. That said, I am not tracking on this post that you sent other than you might be implying that I am excessively verbose...can't tell....

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I wish to point out again, that it is not a coincidence, that this seemingly unrelated battle over "Adam greater than Jesus" theory took place in this thread about Adam's fall.

Why?

Because the false theory (originally offered by the devil himself) that "there was no other way" for Adam to know good and evil or to have children, but by partaking of the forbidden fruit is a natural consequence of "Adam greater than Jesus" garbage.

Again, the author of "there is no other way" theory is the devil. And many still fall for it in the church, just like in the past many fell for "Adam greater than Jesus" lunacy.

These two false theories, actually flow from each-other. And both are wrong.

One false "Adam greater than Jesus" theory has already fallen and has been officially condemned.

The other "there was no other way" lie, originated by the devil, still lingers, but this falsehood too will fall in time, because Reason and Truth are unconquerable. You might as well dethrone Jehovah, as to prevail against the Truth. It cannot be done.

Watch and see... The Truth will triumph to the absolute uttermost.

Thank you.

You have made assertions of false doctrines.
However, brlenox skillfully and eloquently rebutted some of your claims.

Note: This was given as a First Presidency Message in the Ensign,

When Adam and Eve came to this world, they were immortal, instead of blood they had a finer substance.
When they came to this world and partook of it's fruits that contained the seeds of death, the finer substance
was replaced with blood. This made Adam and Eve mortal,

So far so good. But don't mistake them being immortal before the fall with being resurrected. Resurrected being do not, and cannot die (even if they wanted to).

And you have admitted that Adam and Eve were immortal when they came to the garden.
How does one become immortal but by the resurrection of the just.
Even the perfected bodies of translated beings are not immortal, they must still experience death in a twinkling.

And I have also shown that the cannon of scripture support that Adam and Exe were immortal by showing
through D&C 129:1 that an archangel is a king resurrected being.
Those with immortal Bodies have more Honor, Glory, and Power than those with spirit bodies, Jesus's state at the time of the Garden.
So Adam in no way is, ever was, ever will be, subordinate to Christ

Is, it is not I or brlenox that teach falsehood.

[BeNotDeceived]

. missed

Oftentimes, a short sentence carries more meaning that a whole paragraph.

Iron sharpens iron, is a sentence used for the title of a radio show, that discusses the subject for hours on end.

Other examples are, "A picture is worth a thousand words" & "Rolling Waters". Is that a sentence? Regardless, it's two word's that aptly express a vital concept.

"and subdue it" from Genesis is something we may read many times, but our failure to heed it's command, must mean the significance thereof, has alluded us. That, or TPTB lead us along like the frog slowly cooking on the stove.

A Reason for the Repetition - New Era October 2016 - new ...
LDS.ORG - New Era
... for something new—new excitement, new entertainment—that we forget that
the Lord's pattern is consistent, and oftentimes repetitive, spiritual ...

That is one hit of many, from lds.org, just click down the list, as scriptures searches are at the top, just as they should be.

Be Not Deceived - I find sometimes that your posts are a bit enigmatic. Which is fun as I pride myself on being able to deduce some degree of intent from just about anything someone writes well except for Aussie Oi when he was around. Anyway, sometimes I will read yours over and over trying to discern what you are indicating ... sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't but it is always a fun puzzle nonetheless. That said, I am not tracking on this post that you sent other than you might be implying that I am excessively verbose...can't tell....

Not implying that at all. There is always a trade off between saying too much, and saying too little. Search functions and dynamic linking are now available to all. Try searching "iron sharpening iron". There is a popular Christian radio program that goes by that title, but really their Iron lacks the refinement of modern revelation. Lds.org is alway a good reference, and now we can take a phrase, such as the examples I provided, and pair it with a members name to better learn their thoughts, on a given subject.

Solving a puzzle is a good way to describe how we go about "rightly dividing the word of truth". Placing words in quotes means they are from an authoritative source. There is also a trade off between readability, effort to compose, and ease of reading. The quotation marks date back to before HTML or BBcode, and get the job done. Generally those are short exact quotes from memory, which I present in most readable form.

Truth is a progression "line upon line", "precept upon precept", "here a little, and there a little". Chiasmus, is a word I just searched for at lds.org. Predictably nothing in the standard works, but surprisingly only one instance in General Conference. Chiasmus is not a word in the scriptures, but rather it is a word that describes a unique style used to write them.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng

That was the one address, found by searching "Chiasmus". Surprisingly too was that it's not on YouTube. I've seen "Chiasmus" written many times, but this was the first time that I have heard it spoken. So that makes two new things I learned composing this post. The word of the lord is described as a two edged sword, by which we all may sharpen our iron, as we help others to sharpen theirs.

Should you do some searching you will find a few related discussions that may provide some background. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I look forward to further discussions going forward. Actually I think it's great the effort you're willing to put forward to write lengthy posts, and your desire to ground what you write, in solid scripture.

[LoveIsTruth]

Joseph Smith restored the Eternal Doctrine of Polygamy. It was believe, taught, and practiced by the faithful. But it is not taught or practiced today. Why? Because it was made illegal? No, not at all. It was withdrawn from the Church due to unbelief and iniquity.

That contradicts the words of the Prophet in Canonized Scripture again:

"Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise." (D&C OD—1)

So the reason for stopping the practice was precisely because it was made illegal. And you contradict the scripture again. You seem to have a knock for that.

Many righteous apostles and prophets were polygamists. They stopped the practice only because it was made illegal, because the church, as a body, was incapable of protecting themselves against an armed and wicked government. And yes, if the Church as a whole were righteous enough, no power on earth could have driven them out of Zion. But there was no general unbelief about polygamy.

The same is true with this Doctrine.
The body of the Church, even in the face of modern prophets revelations,

Like the words of Spencer W. Kimball saying that "Adam = the Most High" is false doctrine?

cling to the hallow toad stool stories designed to keep the Israelites in the dark about the true nature of God, as they wished.

"The hallow toad stool stories" found in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Perle of Great Price and the Endowment? All modern day canonized scripture received through a true prophet. What was the reason to give these scriptures a new, in their pure form, if they were just "hallow toad stool stories?" And why do you have so little respect for revealed word of God in the Scriptures of this church given through the Lord's anointed? That seems to contradict your statements about respecting their words, especially when under the inspiration and revelation of the Almighty.

God will not violate your agency, if you don't want to know, you will not know. If you want to know you will eventually, if you do your part.
If you don't want to know, don't read the posts.

I do want to know. And I KNOW that what you are teaching is utter garbage. And so also said a Prophet of God, Spencer W. Kimball (if reason and canonized scripture were not enough for you).

Pres. Kimball does show that Adam and Eve, through eating the fruits of this world, had the finer fluid replaced with blood. Thus they and their children were mortal. And that was the change due to the "transgression". So what were Adam and Eve before they ate the fruits, when they had finer fluid, not blood. If they mortal after the change they had to be immortal before the change. After the change "bodies of flesh and blood". Before the change "bodies of flesh and bones" - as in D&C 129:1. Resurrected bodies of flesh and bones.

Yes, immortal bodies of flesh and bones, but NOT resurrected bodies, nor were they resurrection-equivalent bodies.

And, first of all you cannot be resurrected if you did not die. They were created immortal and died only AFTER partaking of the fruit.

Secondly, resurrected bodies CANNOT die: "they cannot die" ( Alma 12:18 ). Adam however did.

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." ( Moses 6:12 ) This is scripture restored in its purity via true, modern day Prophet of God, which you again contradict.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Joseph Smith restored the Eternal Doctrine of Polygamy. It was believe, taught, and practiced by the faithful. But it is not taught or practiced today. Why? Because it was made illegal? No, not at all. It was withdrawn from the Church due to unbelief and iniquity.

That contradicts the words of the Prophet in Canonized Scripture again:

"Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise." (D&C OD—1)

So the reason for stopping the practice was precisely because it was made illegal. And you contradict the scripture again. You seem to have a knock for that.

Many righteous apostles and prophets were polygamists. They stopped the practice only because it was made illegal, because the church, as a body, was incapable of protecting themselves against an armed and wicked government. And yes, if the Church as a whole were righteous enough, no power on earth could have driven them out of Zion. But there was no general unbelief about polygamy.

The same is true with this Doctrine.
The body of the Church, even in the face of modern prophets revelations,

Like the words of Spencer W. Kimball saying that "Adam = the Most High" is false doctrine?

cling to the hallow toad stool stories designed to keep the Israelites in the dark about the true nature of God, as they wished.

"The hallow toad stool stories" found in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Perle of Great Price and the Endowment? All modern day canonized scripture received through a true prophet. What was the reason to give these scriptures a new, in their pure form, if they were just "hallow toad stool stories?" And why do you have so little respect for revealed word of God in the Scriptures of this church given through the Lord's anointed? That seems to contradict your statements about respecting their words, especially when under the inspiration and revelation of the Almighty.

God will not violate your agency, if you don't want to know, you will not know. If you want to know you will eventually, if you do your part.
If you don't want to know, don't read the posts.

I do want to know. And I KNOW that what you are teaching is utter garbage. And so also said a Prophet of God, Spencer W. Kimball (if reason and canonized scripture were not enough for you).

Pres. Kimball does show that Adam and Eve, through eating the fruits of this world, had the finer fluid replaced with blood. Thus they and their children were mortal. And that was the change due to the "transgression". So what were Adam and Eve before they ate the fruits, when they had finer fluid, not blood. If they mortal after the change they had to be immortal before the change. After the change "bodies of flesh and blood". Before the change "bodies of flesh and bones" - as in D&C 129:1. Resurrected bodies of flesh and bones.

Yes, immortal bodies of flesh and bones but NOT resurrected bodies, nor were they resurrection-equivalent bodies.

And, first of all you cannot be resurrected if you did not die. They were created immortal and died only AFTER partaking of the fruit.

Secondly, resurrected bodies CANNOT die. Adam however did.

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." ( Moses 6:12 ) This is scripture restored in its purity via true, modern day Prophet of God.

Utah became a US territory in 1850.
"The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was a federal enactment of the United States Congress that was signed into law on July 8, 1862 by President Abraham Lincoln"
Polygamy was illegal in the US for 28 years before the Church voted to curtail it. It was not dropped due to illegality. A public statement was made to appease the law but for 28 years polygamy was practiced and persecuted by the law.

So if Adam and Eve had immortal bodies but not resurrected, how is that? There are only three typee of physical bodies. Mortal bodies of flesh and blood subject to death. Translated perfected bodies, still subject to death, but in a twinkling. And finally, perfected resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

So which of these three did Spencer W. Kimball say they had?
Mortal? No, you've already admitted they were immortal.
Translated, translated bodies are not immortal. You have to be mortal to be translated. and you've already admitted they were immortal.
That leaves only resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

That is unless there is a forth type. Is there? Do the scriptures tell of a forth type?
Tell us all about that forth type. Immortal but not resurrected. How does it happen. How does one qualify for such?
Give us all the scriptural references on that, if you can.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

And while you are looking for scripture on none resurrected immortal bodies,
find also where Joseph or Brigham or Pres. Kimball or Pres. Hinckley or
Pres. Monson said that all the scriptures are perfect, that they have no
errors. Let's see that quote as well. But then that quote would not be
in the scriptures would it. So it would not be cannon!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

The scriptures are wrong.

Either Adam is not the archangel and did die.
Or Adam is the archangel and did not die.

The disharmony is within the scriptures.
Therefore the scriptures can not be used to resolve it.
Why not turn to the person most responsible for bringing forth all canonized scripture except the Bible.
Wouldn't he clear this up for us. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this very conundrum
is what prompted Joseph's inquiry that lead to the revelations on this subject.
And there it is, he did resolve it for us. He got a revelation on it.
And do you know what he said, he said Adam didn't die.
Well that changes everything doesn't it.
And that is the real problem that is just unacceptable to those that kick against the pricks.
It changes everything and we just can't have that kind of change, can we.

[LoveIsTruth]

However, the fact is that deception is the key intent and it has noting to do with the specific words used but is dependent on the intent of Satan.

That is factually incorrect. Satan said "thou shall not surely die", yet Adam died. (I hope you agree with that, because the scriptures tell us explicitly in multiple places that Adam did indeed die, and that God would be "a liar" if Adam did not die).

So here you have a solid proof that not only "intent" was a deception, but actual words.

Given that, it should be obvious that the words "there is no other way" were also a factual and literal deception, as I said in the OP. Because if "there is no other way" than God is a liar again, because he gave a self-contradictory commandment, and thus contradicted himself: "the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Nephi 3:7). Transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them.

So the actual phrasing of "there is no other way: is perhaps a poor place to define possibilities because the deception transcends the meaning of the words and hinges exactly upon intent to define where the deception lies.

The phrase "there is no other way" was the main deception in the Garden, because a) It is factually false, and b)was the one reason for the wrong decision that Adam and Eve made.

And if you say the decision they made was not wrong, then why use the word "temptation." If there is nothing wrong, there was no temptation! It is that obvious. Yet, they did make a wrong choice according to the plain reading of the scripture:

• "Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." ( D&C 29:40 )

I remind everyone the obvious truth that many seem to forget, especially in the story of Adam and Eve:

Wrong = that which is contrary to the commandments of God.
Right = that which is according to the commandments.

Adam went contrary to the commandments of God, therefore he was wrong by definition. If you contradict that you fight against reason and truth, and make God a liar.

It is this act of deception that taints the words he uses which are perfectly correct

I just unequivocally demonstrated that Satan's words were not only intention-wise, but literally and FACTUALLY incorrect.

However, would we class his words as perfectly accurate and full of truth? Well, we might if we took a look at Alma 12:31

Alma 12:31

31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—

Here Alma uses the same words as Satan used to describe the change from eating the fruit

Opening eyes to know good and evil as the result of transgression are factually correct.

But that was not the lie.

The lie was that "there was no other way." That is the big lie. That is the key to the whole story.

There indeed WAS another way, or God would be a liar and would cease to be God! What was that OTHER way? Simply to resist the temptation of the devil! That's all. Because eyes are opened to know good from evil by resisting temptations, just as much as by yielding to them, as amply demonstrated by Jesus, who was born with the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had in the garden, but had his eyes opened to know good from evil by resisting temptations, and not by yielding to them.

• "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good." ( 2 Ne. 17:15 )

This is the proof of the veil over Jesus mind at birth.

• "Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." ( D&C 20:21,22 )

This is the proof that he never yielded to any temptations.

Thus it plainly demonstrates that it was the exposure to the temptation and not the fruit per say that opened their eyes. This is why it was called "the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened.

Thus I think the premise of the OP a bit too simplistic as to think the deception was confined to the lie being the words he chose as opposed to the intent of his heart.

It was both.

if we only need to resist sin to learn of right and wrong why is it that only one being has done exactly that.

That is not true. Learning right from wrong is a process. And it continues through most of people's life in this world. Eyes are opened in degrees, until they are completely opened. And when they are completely opened, there remains no more mercy for men, because they become fully responsible. Therefore they remain guiltless only inasmuch as they live according the the light and truth they possess.

So in the righteous, most of the "eye opening" is done by resisting temptations, and in the wicked most of the eye-opening is done by yielding to them.

Thus all who live on earth have a part of their eye-opening attributed to resisting temptations, rather than yielding to them.

In Jesus we have the uncommon example of a man who had ALL (and not just a part) of his eye-opening due to resisting temptation.

So opening of eyes to know good and evil, at least in some part, by resisting temptations, is universal to all beings.

In Jesus it was complete.

In this "other way" scenario that is proposed in this OP how would we have ever learned and grown sufficient that we could not sin.

Good question. And I gave the answer in the OP. In fact the Lord himself gave the answer when he described the conditions that will prevail on earth during the Millennium:

• "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:55-58)

Thus billions of children born in the Millennium will "grow up without sin unto salvation." How is it possible? Because they will continually be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, because they will continually be faithful and devoted to him, despite of their possible (honest) mistakes.

So these billions of children will learn and grow sufficient that they would not sin and be saved and exalted, and do all this "without sin unto salvation" as the scripture says.

That was the option available to Adam, but he dropped the ball. But the Lord in his mercy still holds out this option to all, and it will be a common occurrence in the Millennium.

The conditions on earth in the Millennium will be similar to those before the fall:

• "Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and [restored to] its paradisiacal glory."
  (Articles of Faith 1:10)

That is how "how would we have ... learned and grown," as you asked.

In other words given agency and a choice between right and wrong it is obvious that all mankind was going to sin - obvious because we can see that it has been so. So to focus on not sinning ever is the wrong end of the equation.

Again, not true. Billions of children (arguably about half of all those born on earth) have died before the age of accountability who have never sinned, nor ever will sin (because when they are resurrected, celestial beings do not sin).

• "But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me; For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, " ( D&C 29:46-48 )

How are these billions going to grow as you asked? "Without sin unto salvation" (D&C 45:58),-- the Lord responds,-- just like those billions of children in the Millennium.

So this is the right "end of the equation" that was commanded by the Lord himself.

Too bad many did not listen to him. But many will and have.

The Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to keep. Learn this. It is key to the whole thing.

The fall was a fair means of putting everyone on the same playing field. Clean slate, and then each individual intelligence gets to sort itself into the kingdom which possess the law by which they are able to be governed.

The fall is not necessary to sort everyone.

Consider that before the fall the earth was in a terrestrial state, paradisiacal glory. After the fall the earth entered telestial state. After Christ comes back he will cleanse the earth by fire and restore it back to paradisiacal glory, terrestrial state, similar to that that existed before the fall.

In this terrestrial state many will "grow up without sin unto salvation" (D&C 45:55-58), yet many will also become sons of perdition at the end of the Millennium and start a war against Christ which they will lose.

Did you notice this: In the terrestrial state of paradisical glory there will be sons of perdition, which are even lower than telestials.

So Adam did not have to fall to give his children room to exercise their agency, because even in a paradisiacal terrestrial, pre-fall glory people are free to exercise their agency and become sons of perdition, if they so choose.

Thus Adam did not have to fall to allow his children agency in the paradise. It (agency) is always present, no matter the state. It exists even in Heaven itself, hence the war that took place their in the pre-existence.

So again, the fall was unnecessary to allow agency to Adam's posterity.

In other words, without the fall and the conditions that required every intelligence to define the kingdom to which they were naturally suited as an act of noncompulsion we would observe the exact conditions that Satan desired in his plan. He said he would make them all come back and be celestial citizens.

Again, this is false as I just explained.

Even in Heaven itself the agency and the ability to choose one's glory is amply present.

This ability exists in EVERY level of God's creation and in every kingdom, because agency is an eternal principle unconquerable, protected, and guaranteed by God himself.

Everyone, everywhere is ultimately free to choose their destiny. God made sure of that.

However, this would be an act of force and compulsion for everyone of those spirits who could not abide a celestial law and were better suited to a telestial or terrestrial law and glory and would not be able to declare that they were an intelligence of a lower order.

Again, not true, because even in a terestrial state, in the Millennium itself, people will be free to declare themselves sons of perdition, as the scriptures plainly demonstrate.

They would be forced, which is completely against the laws of being a God into conditions in which they would not be happy.

No, they are always free to kick themselves out of ANY kingdom of glory in any degree, as Satan demonstrated, by kicking himself out of the Celestial Kingdom of God itself! So also are those sons of perdition at the end of the Millennium, and so also would have been those of Adam's posterity if Adam did not fall.

In essence, from my perspective this rewrite as represented in the OP is simply a rewording of Satan's plan to find a means to allow all intelligences to return to God the Father.

False again, as I just explained.

They are free to kick themselves out of ANY kingdom of glory, and they do kick themselves out, as scriptures plainly demonstrate. So the freedom to choose their destiny is always preserved, in any degree of any kingdom, fall or no fall.

Is there anyone who might think that if there was some "other way" for the Father to avoid sending his firstborn Son, in the Spirit, and only born Son, in the flesh, that he would not have taken advantage of that "other way". Is there anyone that would consider the Father so heartless, ambivalent and contracted in His feelings of love for his Son that he would require so great a sacrifice if there was some "other way"

You fundamentally confuse to very different situations. There is no other way to achieve God's blessings but by keeping his commandments. But there is ALWAYS another way when one is tempted to transgress them. This is FUNDAMENTAL difference which you confuse.

There is ALWAYS another way when one is tempted. ALWAYS! Or God would cease to be God. Learn this. It is very important! It is key.

However, the Savior understands "there is no other way" and he rises up to be delivered up to his accusers and he under goes a suffering so inconceivable that D & C 19 only tries to convey meaning as Christ reflects on "the only way" to fulfill the Fathers plan which was initiated in a Garden, by a tree while talking to a snake who only knew enough to say "there is no other way".

Yes, and the snake lied, but God told the truth.

There was no other way but to keep the commandment. And there was definitely another way, other than yielding to the temptation. So the Savior was right, and the snake was wrong. Surprised? I am not.

"Would that I might not drink the bitter cup" - had there of been any other way no Father, or father could endure the pleading of his Son to provide that other way if it existed. However, it did not.

That's right: there is no other way but to keep the commandment. And there is ALWAYS another way, instead of transgressing it.

It is fundamental difference.

And you, and every one else must understand this difference.

And surely there would be no change in the Father's reply to us as we wept for so great a sacrifice and with tear filled eyes and a head hung low He would say through those tears with a voice choking back an eternity of emotion - "There is no other way..." "there is no other way"...Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep - "there is no other way."

Precisely. There is no other way but to keep the commandment. And there is ALWAYS another way instead of breaking it.

Learn this. It is key.

Thanks, my friend.

[LoveIsTruth]

No, they did not want their children mortal, nor did they hope to die themselves. They were deceived by the devil. "The serpent BEGUILED me" "Beguile" means to deceive.

Have you not read 2 Nephi. He tells us very clearly that death is a very important part of our eternal progression.

That without it, we would be damned.

Really? How about the Millennium where:

• "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." ( D&C 101:29 )

Will they be damned in the Millennium? No! That twinkling of an eye is not even worthy to be called "death" hence the Lord says of the Millennium "there is no death."

The same or similar blessing was offered Adam: "no death" from the beginning. But he dropped the ball, and was cursed as the result.

Adam and Eve clearly wants us to progress and they were willing to risk death after achieving immortality for themselves, to become mortal temporarily so that we would have a mortal probation in which to prepare ourselves for that which they, Adam and Eve, have achieved.

All this was clearly possible without the fall, or the Father would not have commanded them NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit!

There was another way!

A much better way indeed. The same, or very similar way to that which will prevail in the Millennium where "there is no death" as the Lord himself says.

I am certain that of millions of worlds that God has created there has been many that did not fall, and that started off in a paradisaical terrestrial glory of Eden, similar to that which will be upon this earth during the Millennium, where untold billions of children will grow up "without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

Thus the fall was unnecessary, had Adam listened to the Father.

The devil lied, and the Father told the truth! Is it so hard to believe?

[LoveIsTruth]

And you have admitted that Adam and Eve were immortal when they came to the garden.
How does one become immortal but by the resurrection of the just.

Not really. Adam was created immortal before his fall, but was not resurrected yet because he has not yet died then.

Even the perfected bodies of translated beings are not immortal, they must still experience death in a twinkling.

Yes translated does not mean immortal.

And I have also shown that the cannon of scripture support that Adam and Exe were immortal by showing
through D&C 129:1 that an archangel is a king resurrected being.

You cannot be a "resurrected being" if you have never died. Adam did not die until AFTER his fall.

Those with immortal Bodies have more Honor, Glory, and Power than those with spirit bodies,

That is factually wrong. Cain, a son of perdition, will have an immortal body, just like everyone who was ever born on earth. Yet it would be wrong to say that Cain, when he is resurrected and goes to hell will have "more Honor, Glory, and Power" than Jesus before He was born.

Jesus' intelligence, authority and standing in the order of God was way above that of Adam, even before Jesus was born.

That's why Adam in the flesh was commanded to "repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore" ( Moses 5:8 ) even BEFORE Jesus was born. Why would God command that to Adam, if the Son was not greater than Adam in intelligence and authority? That would make no sense at all!

So Adam in no way is, ever was, ever will be, subordinate to Christ

Is, it is not I or brlenox that teach falsehood.

Yes, you teach falsehoods, as I just clearly proven. And proven the same many times before, for anyone who is guided by reason, which you are clearly not.

You are guided by blind boot-licking of "authority" and in that, ironically you contradict the very authority you profess allegiance to!

[LoveIsTruth]

So if Adam and Eve had immortal bodies but not resurrected, how is that? There are only three typee of physical bodies. Mortal bodies of flesh and blood subject to death. Translated perfected bodies, still subject to death, but in a twinkling. And finally, perfected resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

So which of these three did Spencer W. Kimball say they had?
Mortal? No, you've already admitted they were immortal.
Translated, translated bodies are not immortal. You have to be mortal to be translated. and you've already admitted they were immortal.
That leaves only resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

That is unless there is a forth type. Is there? Do the scriptures tell of a forth type?
Tell us all about that forth type. Immortal but not resurrected. How does it happen. How does one qualify for such?
Give us all the scriptural references on that, if you can.

Fair analysis. And yes you are right, there is a fourth type as you said.

What scriptural proof?

The same you just gave. The scriptures clearly say that Adam was immortal before the fall, and became mortal after the fall. So that is your fourth type, because we clearly know that resurrected bodies do not and "cannot die." (Alma 12:18)

This is called using one's reason, which you studiously avoid doing.

I am not trying to offend you, friend. I am just pointing out the obvious. I feel you are a good man, but you believe too many errors because you refuse to believe reason in favor of supposed "authority," even when that authority clearly tells you NOT to believe it!

[LoveIsTruth]

And while you are looking for scripture on none resurrected immortal bodies,
find also where Joseph or Brigham or Pres. Kimball or Pres. Hinckley or
Pres. Monson said that all the scriptures are perfect, that they have no
errors. Let's see that quote as well. But then that quote would not be
in the scriptures would it. So it would not be cannon!

Wrong again! It is in the canon:

• "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." (Book of Mormon Title Page)

[LoveIsTruth]

The scriptures are wrong.

Either Adam is not the archangel and did die.
Or Adam is the archangel and did not die.

The disharmony is within the scriptures.

The scriptures are not wrong on this: Adam is the archangel AND he did die.

Just like Jesus was the Savior even before he was born, and he too died.

And Jesus was the first one to rise from the dead, and resurrected Adam, which Adam was commanded during his life on earth to repent and to believe in the Son, and to worship God in the name of the Son forever more.

So scriptures are perfectly harmonious on this point. Your erroneous interpretations, however, are not.

Therefore the scriptures can not be used to resolve it.

Scriptures are perfectly correct on this point and they definitely can and should be used to resolve it.

Why not turn to the person most responsible for bringing forth all canonized scripture except the Bible.
Wouldn't he clear this up for us. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this very conundrum
is what prompted Joseph's inquiry that lead to the revelations on this subject.
And there it is, he did resolve it for us. He got a revelation on it.

Where is it?

All we have is self-contradictory reports of interpretations and personal opinions at odds with perfectly harmonious canonized scriptures on the subject.

And do you know what he said, he said Adam didn't die.

Where?

Well that changes everything doesn't it.

No it doesn't, because he did not say it.

And that is the real problem that is just unacceptable to those that kick against the pricks.
It changes everything and we just can't have that kind of change, can we.

Where did he say it?

Can you prove it?

All you have is second hand self-contradictory reports that contradict modern day revelations in the scriptures and the reason itself!

• "And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." ( Alma 12:23 )
  
  "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." ( Moses 6:12 )

[LukeAir2008]

You have to remember that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is essentially a fairy story made up by Moses for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth.

If you really believe that God made a little mud pie man and then took a rib out while he was sleeping and made that into a woman then you might as well believe that the First Man was made from gingerbread.

Contrary to what our friend Lovels Truth is saying, Adam and Eve could not have conceived physical children without undergoing a change in their physiology. They achieved this by partaking of fruit of a lower order.

[LoveIsTruth]

You have to remember that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is essentially a fairy story made up by Moses for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth.

Prove it.

If you really believe that God made a little mud pie man and then took a rib out while he was sleeping and made that into a woman then you might as well believe that the First Man was made from gingerbread.

I believe what the scriptures say. Have you not read:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
(Ezekiel 37: 1-10)

How is that for "gingerbread?"

Would you say this too is "a fairy story made up by [Ezekiel] for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth?"

I hope not, for it would speak too little of your faith.

If God can reconstitute a human body from ashes scattered across the sea, why can he not make a perfect body from the dust as he said?

Contrary to what our friend Lovels Truth is saying, Adam and Eve could not have conceived physical children without undergoing a change in their physiology. They achieved this by partaking of fruit of a lower order.

I have proven that wrong. You have not proven otherwise.

Your statement is without basis in fact. That is the "fairy story" and you believe it because you "cannot handle the truth."

Cheers.

[LukeAir2008]

You have to remember that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is essentially a fairy story made up by Moses for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth.

Prove it.

If you really believe that God made a little mud pie man and then took a rib out while he was sleeping and made that into a woman then you might as well believe that the First Man was made from gingerbread.

I believe what the scriptures say. Have you not read:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
(Ezekiel 37: 1-10)

How is that for "gingerbread?"

Would you say this too is "a fairy story made up by [Ezekiel] for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth?"

I hope not, for it would speak too little of your faith.

If God can reconstitute a human body from ashes scattered across the sea, why can he not make a perfect body from the dust as he said?

Contrary to what our friend Lovels Truth is saying, Adam and Eve could not have conceived physical children without undergoing a change in their physiology. They achieved this by partaking of fruit of a lower order.

I have proven that wrong. You have not proven otherwise.

Your statement is without basis in fact. That is the "fairy story" and you believe it because you "cannot handle the truth."

Cheers.

God has communicated with living Prophets in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times and has corrected the errors that you are now trying to resurrect.

You are trying to restore ignorance and falsehoods which admittedly many do love.

How are men and women created? They are born after conception. There is no other way.
Moses 6:59 says that Adam was 'born into the world by water and blood and the spirit which I have made and so became of dust a living soul.

As Adam was the First Man upon this planet and yet according to Moses 6 was born, he cannot have been born upon this planet.

I understand that we need opposition and false teachers and false prophets so I thank you for playing that part.

[freedomforall]

You have to remember that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is essentially a fairy story made up by Moses for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth.

Prove it.

If you really believe that God made a little mud pie man and then took a rib out while he was sleeping and made that into a woman then you might as well believe that the First Man was made from gingerbread.

I believe what the scriptures say. Have you not read:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
(Ezekiel 37: 1-10)

How is that for "gingerbread?"

Would you say this too is "a fairy story made up by [Ezekiel] for those who could not and still cannot handle the truth?"

I hope not, for it would speak too little of your faith.

If God can reconstitute a human body from ashes scattered across the sea, why can he not make a perfect body from the dust as he said?

Contrary to what our friend Lovels Truth is saying, Adam and Eve could not have conceived physical children without undergoing a change in their physiology. They achieved this by partaking of fruit of a lower order.

I have proven that wrong. You have not proven otherwise.

Your statement is without basis in fact. That is the "fairy story" and you believe it because you "cannot handle the truth."

Cheers.

God has communicated with living Prophets in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times and has corrected the errors that you are now trying to resurrect.

You are trying to restore ignorance and falsehoods which admittedly many do love.

How are men and women created? They are born after conception. There is no other way.
Moses 6:59 says that Adam was 'born into the world by water and blood and the spirit which I have made and so became of dust a living soul.

As Adam was the First Man upon this planet and yet according to Moses 6 was born, he cannot have been born upon this planet.

I understand that we need opposition and false teachers and false prophets so I thank you for playing that part.

Thank you for being a MSA. We know that some here have to play that part as well.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 56; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimball; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Here we have a rather recent prophet that echoes the testimonies of the prophets of the restoration.
And their testimony proves you wrong. We have Many witnesses against you, Fist Pres. and Quorum
of Apostles that all testified to what Spencer w. Kimball said to the whole Church in a First Presidency Message.

Do you dare say that all these prophets are wrong. You cling to the foolish traditions of your fathers,
the stork stories, the hollow toad stool stories, the fairy tales told the wicked and idolatrous
Israelites by Moses because they rejected the Law of The Gospel, they didn't want the Melchizedek
priesthood, they didn't want to know the true identity and nature of God.

"Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

So if Adam and Eve had immortal bodies but not resurrected, how is that? There are only three typee of physical bodies. Mortal bodies of flesh and blood subject to death. Translated perfected bodies, still subject to death, but in a twinkling. And finally, perfected resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

So which of these three did Spencer W. Kimball say they had?
Mortal? No, you've already admitted they were immortal.
Translated, translated bodies are not immortal. You have to be mortal to be translated. and you've already admitted they were immortal.
That leaves only resurrected immortal bodies of flesh and bones.

That is unless there is a forth type. Is there? Do the scriptures tell of a forth type?
Tell us all about that forth type. Immortal but not resurrected. How does it happen. How does one qualify for such?
Give us all the scriptural references on that, if you can.

Fair analysis. And yes you are right, there is a fourth type as you said.

What scriptural proof?

The same you just gave. The scriptures clearly say that Adam was immortal before the fall, and became mortal after the fall. So that is your fourth type, because we clearly know that resurrected bodies do not and "cannot die." (Alma 12:18)

This is called using one's reason, which you studiously avoid doing.

I am not trying to offend you, friend. I am just pointing out the obvious. I feel you are a good man, but you believe too many errors because you refuse to believe reason in favor of supposed "authority," even when that authority clearly tells you NOT to believe it!

Hook, line and sinker. There is no forth type.
There are only three types of physical bodies.
You teach false doctrine that there is an immortal body that is not resurrected.
You are now making things up to keep your fairy tail that Adam dies.
He died only in the fairy tail, In reality he did not die.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

This is called using one's reason, which you studiously avoid doing.

I am not trying to offend you, friend. I am just pointing out the obvious. I feel you are a good man, but you believe too many errors because you refuse to believe reason in favor of supposed "authority," even when that authority clearly tells you NOT to believe it!

Yes, the Doctrines of Eternity are reasonable.

You denied that Adam had an immortal body in the garden.
You deny that Christ is subordinate to Adam.

Do you deny that Michael has a body of flesh and bones?

Now he does, after he was resurrected, AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, because Jesus was "first to rise."

Before that Adam was very dead: spirit and body separated as God promised "unto dust shall thou return." Which Adam did.

Do you deny that Michael is the King resurrected personage?

Now he is. But he is a Prince under Jesus: "Who hath appointed Michael your prince" (D&C 78:16 )

I reasoned with you, showing you that Adam(Michael) is the archangel and that arch means king and an angel has an immortal body (D&C 1291)
Yet, you denied that.

I reasoned that Christ, having a body of spirit, was subordinate to Adam, having a resurrected immortal body.

Then I showed you a quote from Spencer Kimball saying Adam had an immortal body.
And to that you agreed but made up some unreasonable fiction of immortality without resurrection.

And I laid the trap of a forth physical body type and asked for scriptural proof.

You took the bate, swallowed the hook and presented unreasonable circular logic to prove fiction.

In the reasoning department "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

[LoveIsTruth]

God has communicated with living Prophets in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times and has corrected the errors that you are now trying to resurrect.
You are trying to restore ignorance and falsehoods which admittedly many do love.

"Ignorance and falsehoods" the Prophets themselves brought forth and restored in their purity in the modern day scripture? Hardly.

How are men and women created? They are born after conception. There is no other way.

How are men resurrected from ashes sprinkled across the ocean? I assure you, they are not "born after conception" for that. They are put together particle by particle exactly as Ezekiel described (Ezekiel 37: 1-10).

Moses 6:59 says that Adam was 'born into the world by water and blood and the spirit which I have made and so became of dust a living soul.

Right. In his body there is blood and water and spirit. All made from the dust. All matter is made from one particle/substance anyway. What's your point?

As Adam was the First Man upon this planet and yet according to Moses 6 was born, he cannot have been born upon this planet.

I don't understand this. Can you please rephrase that?

And yes, he was not born upon this planet, and I suspect, his corporal body was not born of a woman at all.

I understand that we need opposition and false teachers and false prophets so I thank you for playing that part.

You are the false teacher here, friend. And you don't even know it.

[LoveIsTruth]

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 56; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimball; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Here we have a rather recent prophet that echoes the testimonies of the prophets of the restoration.
And their testimony proves you wrong. We have Many witnesses against you, Fist Pres. and Quorum
of Apostles that all testified to what Spencer w. Kimball said to the whole Church in a First Presidency Message.

Do you dare say that all these prophets are wrong. You cling to the foolish traditions of your fathers,
the stork stories, the hollow toad stool stories, the fairy tales told the wicked and idolatrous
Israelites by Moses because they rejected the Law of The Gospel, they didn't want the Melchizedek
priesthood, they didn't want to know the true identity and nature of God.

"Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

Do you mean the same Spencer W. Kimball who said "Adam=the Most High" is false doctrine? The same false doctrine you try to promote here. Who is "found wanting," my friend?

[LoveIsTruth]

Hook, line and sinker. There is no forth type.
There are only three types of physical bodies.
You teach false doctrine that there is an immortal body that is not resurrected.
You are now making things up to keep your fairy tail that Adam dies.
He died only in the fairy tail, In reality he did not die.

You mean this "fairy tail?"

• "And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." ( Alma 12:23 )
  
  "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." ( Moses 6:12 )

It is sad, that modern day scripture restored in its purity by modern day Prophets is but "fairy tail" to you.