The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[freedomforall]

I have repeatedly proven by scripture alone, that Michael/Adam had a body of flesh and bones, a resurrected body before he entered the Garden.

No you have not. You have only regurgitated words of others. I said to provide actual living scripture from canon telling us that Adam was a resurrected being prior to coming to earth, Come on, just one. Book, chapter and verse.

What is your purpose here, anyway? To do this:

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

so you better rethink your position.

Only through patience and long suffering
NOT THREATS
In this you attempt, as Satan does, to take away my agency.
I will believe what I will believe and have a forded you the same.
I have rejected no prophets.
I have not caused the contention.
I have testified what the Lord's anointed have said.

The cannon of scripture says that Adam is Michael.
The cannon of scripture says that Michael is the archangel.
The cannon of scripture says that angels are resurrected personages of flesh and bones.
The cannon of scripture says that Michael is a personages of flesh and bones.
The cannon of scripture says that Michael was the archangel before the Garden
The cannon of scripture says that Michael is a personages of flesh and bones before the Garden

[HappyCamper8]

Could somebody put a link to the reference where President Kimball declared this stuff false doctrine?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Could somebody put a link to the reference where President Kimball declared this stuff false doctrine?

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in a remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 56; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Could somebody put a link to the reference where President Kimball declared this stuff false doctrine?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... a?lang=eng

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.
October 1976 | Our Own Liahona Spencer W. Kimball President of the Church

The Adam-God theory is not what Joseph and Brigham taught, they taught Doctrine, not theory.
The Adam-God theory is a paper written by apostates and has very little in common or resemblance
to what Joseph and Brigham taught.

This miss understanding of the difference of Theory and Doctrine has caused much confusion and unbelief, which was the intent of
the Adam-God theory.


Satan is a great counterfeiter. He counterfeits truths for two main reasons reasons, if it sounds familiar maybe someone will believe it instead of the truth, and to make a mockery of the truth thus making even the truth unpalatable and unbelievable. So if he can't get you to believe his falsehoods, you won't believe the truth either. Works pretty good doesn't it. How many reject the doctrine because the theory has been rightfully denounce.

Examples:
Witches crystal ball - forgery of urim and thumim
Witches coven - forgery of the true order of prayer
reincarnation - forgery of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives

[HappyCamper8]

I'm confused. So the Liahona? That's not canon, so wouldn't that be considered opinion anyway?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I'm confused. So the Liahona? That's not canon, so wouldn't that be considered opinion anyway?

Because it was the current President of the Church, Spencer W. Kimball.

[HappyCamper8]

I'm confused. So the Liahona? That's not canon, so wouldn't that be considered opinion anyway?

Because it was the current President of the Church, Spencer W. Kimball.

I see what you are saying. I've heard in this discussion from somebody, that if it's not canon, it's opinion. I'll have to check, actually because I may be mistaken and I could have made that up in my mind!

[Thinker]

I interpret that Adam & Eve story as a parable to be likened to us, not literally.

The fruit represents
1. free agency - essential to God's plan - and also
2. a degree of spiritual birth (eyes being opened to discern) - also essential to God's plan.

There was no other way, in that sense.

Still, as symbolic parables, you could look at it from many different angles & liken it to us individually and in relationships.

Try reading the Book of Mormon. Great reading and enlightening as well. Without the Adam and Eve story really occurring, we would not be here talking about it. It's in the book!

I have read it many times!
But I've also gone to the temple and realize that Adam and Eve represent us, male and female.
Trying to shove a symbolic, spiritual parable into history or science is ridiculous and misses the point.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I'm confused. So the Liahona? That's not canon, so wouldn't that be considered opinion anyway?

Because it was the current President of the Church, Spencer W. Kimball.

I see what you are saying. I've heard in this discussion from somebody, that if it's not canon, it's opinion. I'll have to check, actually because I may be mistaken and I could have made that up in my mind!

And also realize that he was not speaking of what Joseph and Brigham taught, he was talking about what apostates taught.

[LoveIsTruth]

I have all the writings of the Lord's anointed.

The problem is that they are self-contradictory. And you chose to believe the bad part, and to deny the good, the one that the Lord approved.

that is your opinion
there is nothing wrong with what I believe

Except that it blatantly contradicts modern day scriptures (all 3 books of them) and the temple endowment which says the same thing!

it is one line of "line upon line"
and without it, the next line is difficult if not impossible.

"Line upon line" is not a license for self-contradiction. Learn this: self-contradiction is the definition of error.

there is beautiful doctrine beyond Adam is God, but not for you, you are damned at Adam is God. You chose to go no further.

There are Gods without any beginning, and there will be without end. I know that. You just got the order wrong.

Adam was saved, redeemed, and resurrected by Jesus after Adam's fall and death, after his partaking of the fruit.
Jesus saved Adam, not Adam Jesus. And Jesus is the Son of the Most High, and not of Adam, and Jesus was assigned by Elohim to save Adam, as you have seen in the Temple.

But I guess to you Temple endowment is also "old wife's fables."

At least it is clear to everyone now where you stand.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I have all the writings of the Lord's anointed.

The problem is that they are self-contradictory. And you chose to believe the bad part, and to deny the good, the one that the Lord approved.

that is your opinion
there is nothing wrong with what I believe

Except that it blatantly contradicts modern day scriptures (all 3 books of them) and the temple endowment which says the same thing!

it is one line of "line upon line"
and without it, the next line is difficult if not impossible.

"Line upon line" is not a license for self-contradiction. Learn this: self-contradiction is the definition of error.

there is beautiful doctrine beyond Adam is God, but not for you, you are damned at Adam is God. You chose to go no further.

There are Gods without any beginning, and there will be without end. I know that. You just got the order wrong.

Adam was saved, redeemed, and resurrected by Jesus after Adam's fall and death, after his partaking of the fruit.
Jesus saved Adam, not Adam Jesus. And Jesus is the Son of the Most High, and not of Adam, and Jesus was assigned by Elohim to save Adam, as you have seen in the Temple.

But I guess to you Temple endowment is also "old wife's fables."

At least it is clear to everyone where you stand.

It is not my opinion that they are self contradicting.
I have read some things that I don't understand, but that is different.
And the are times when they spoke to a particular audience, so not as forthright.
There is no scripture that says Adam is redeemed by Christ.
I hope everyone knows that I stand with Joseph and Brigham.
I can't think of a better place to stand.
Where ever you see them standing, you will see Christ there as well.
Heber Q. Hale said that is what he saw in his vision. Joseph and Christ together.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I have all the writings of the Lord's anointed.

The problem is that they are self-contradictory. And you chose to believe the bad part, and to deny the good, the one that the Lord approved.

that is your opinion
there is nothing wrong with what I believe

Except that it blatantly contradicts modern day scriptures (all 3 books of them) and the temple endowment which says the same thing!

it is one line of "line upon line"
and without it, the next line is difficult if not impossible.

"Line upon line" is not a license for self-contradiction. Learn this: self-contradiction is the definition of error.

there is beautiful doctrine beyond Adam is God, but not for you, you are damned at Adam is God. You chose to go no further.

There are Gods without any beginning, and there will be without end. I know that. You just got the order wrong.

Adam was saved, redeemed, and resurrected by Jesus after Adam's fall and death, after his partaking of the fruit.
Jesus saved Adam, not Adam Jesus. And Jesus is the Son of the Most High, and not of Adam, and Jesus was assigned by Elohim to save Adam, as you have seen in the Temple.

But I guess to you Temple endowment is also "old wife's fables."

At least it is clear to everyone now where you stand.

It is the endowment that prompted me to seek the truth. And when I read the truth, I didn't believe it. But it was the endowment that then convinced me that what I read was the truth. Every single word has meaning, but not always what we think.

[LoveIsTruth]

It is not my opinion that they are self contradicting.
I have read some things that I don't understand, but that is different.
And the are times when they spoke to a particular audience, so not as forthright.
There is no scripture that says Adam is redeemed by Christ.

This shows your profound ignorance of Scriptures, my friend!

• "And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Also in the Temple, Elohim says to Adam: "We will provide for you a savior."

I hope everyone knows that I stand with Joseph and Brigham.

No, you deny the words of Joseph in modern day scriptures, in endowment, and even in his warning not to take his personal opinion at odds with scriptures as word of God. You deny his words!

I can't think of a better place to stand.
Where ever you see them standing, you will see Christ there as well.
Heber Q. Hale said that is what he saw in his vision. Joseph and Christ together.

Yes. Just stop denying Joseph words, as you now do!

[LoveIsTruth]

It is the endowment that prompted me to seek the truth. And when I read the truth, I didn't believe it. But it was the endowment that then convinced me that what I read was the truth. Every single word has meaning, but not always what we think.

What do you think it means in the endowment when Elohim says to Adam: "unto dust shall thou return" and "we will provide for you a Savior?" As well as saying to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

It is the endowment that prompted me to seek the truth. And when I read the truth, I didn't believe it. But it was the endowment that then convinced me that what I read was the truth. Every single word has meaning, but not always what we think.

What do you think it means in the endowment when Elohim says to Adam: "unto dust shall thou return" and "we will provide for you a Savior?"

It does not say that Adam is redeemed by the Savior.
If Adam is the Father, faced with losing his spirit children forever.
And Elohim is Adams Father, as Brigham says,
Then "we will provide for you a Savior" makes sense, even with a totally different meaning.
If Adam had not left the earth after eating the seeds of death, he would have died and "unto dust shall thou return".
But he did leave.
Even Spencer Kimball Said that Adam became mortal by eating the food of the earth and then became immortal again.

Try again.

[LoveIsTruth]

It says: "We will provide for you a Savior that YOU may be redeemed, and come back into our presence." So you are wrong again.

And "unto dust shall thou return"? You missed that.

So "thou shalt surely die" did not mean "surely die" just as the devil said, right? Well you have the devil agreeing with you. But scriptures and God disagree with you.

And what are you going to do with:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Deny it too?

Because you say Christ did not redeem Adam.

And if someone is fallen, why is it that they need no redemption? Or are you saying Adam did not fall?

This whole theory is quite unhinged!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

It is the endowment that prompted me to seek the truth. And when I read the truth, I didn't believe it. But it was the endowment that then convinced me that what I read was the truth. Every single word has meaning, but not always what we think.

What do you think it means in the endowment when Elohim says to Adam: "unto dust shall thou return" and "we will provide for you a Savior?" As well as saying to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I already answered the first two.

After the garden, Adam is a stand in for us, everything said to Adam is actually being said to us. Why, because we are to become Adams, and this is the process such that we will be an Adam. We are expected to become and Adam the endowment is trying to get us to expect that of ourselves, to actually think of ourselves as an Adam in the making.

Note: All the names used to refer to deity, except maybe Jesus, are not individual names but are Titles used to identify a Role.
The word Elohim is plural of Elo. Sometimes Elohim refers to the council of Gods. But when it refers to a single individual, it is
designating the one that holds the keys, the one that is presiding. There are times when Elohim refers to Adams Father, and times when it refers to Adam( The Father). I know of no instance where Elohim refers to Christ, but I do know of a place where Michael refers to Christ.
Michael is the Role Title of God the Father while in heaven.
Adam is the Role Tittle of God the Father while on the earth.
Jehovah is the Role Title of the Savior of the world before the Atonement.
I'm not sure about Christ, I believe it is the Role Title of the Savior after the Atonement,
But I'm not sure if it is used on other worlds. I believe so, but not sure.
How does one know, by the context.

[LoveIsTruth]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

It says: "We will provide for you a Savior that YOU may be redeemed, and come back into our presence." So you are wrong again.

And "unto dust shall thou return"? You missed that.

So "thou shalt surely die" did not mean "surely die" just as the devil said, right? Well you have the devil agreeing with you. But scriptures and God disagree with you.

And what are you going to do with:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Deny it too?

Because you say Christ did not redeem Adam.

And if someone is fallen, why is it that they need no redemption? Or are you saying Adam did not fall?

This whole theory is quite unhinged!

There are explanations, but Joseph and Brigham taught them.
And you have already rejected them.

Why will you not continue to try to prove Joseph and Brigham wrong and try to understand instead.
Or at least say, that is what they taught but I don't believe it.
They did teach it and kicking against it is not in your best interest.
To just say I don't believe it and walk away is probably the best you can do now.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

No, it does not, at first it is Adams father, later it is Adam.

[LoveIsTruth]

There are explanations, but Joseph and Brigham taught them.
And you have already rejected them.

Why will you not continue to try to prove Joseph and Brigham wrong and try to understand instead.
Or at least say, that is what they taught but I don't believe it.
They did teach it and kicking against it is not in your best interest.
To just say I don't believe it and walk away is probably the best you can do now.

You are right. I don't believe it because it is self-contradictory, and contradicts the words of God himself given through Joseph in the Scriptures.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I don't owe it to you to answer your questions.
However, I did, it's not my fault you don't understand.

[LoveIsTruth]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I don't owe it to you to answer your questions.
However, I did, it's not my fault you don't understand.

You cannot answer it without people seeing how crazy your theory really is!

[LoveIsTruth]

Besides you say Christ, the Only Begotten, did not redeem Adam. Yet the scripture says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

I rest my case. I think there is enough evidence to prove your theory false.