The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Hidingbehindmyhandle, do us all a favor and leave this thread.

You do not respond to specific questions, instead you spam this thread with pages and pages of cut and paste garbage.

Please leave.

Thanks.

I don't know what specific question you are talking about, give me a reference and I'll do my best.
Just backing up what I say, if you don't like it, don't read it or leave.

[LoveIsTruth]

I don't know what specific question you are talking about, give me a reference and I'll do my best.

I post it again, for your convenience:

So you keep asserting that Adam is greater than Christ.

Consider this:

You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; ..." (Moses 4:23)

"the curse of Adam is taken from them in me [Christ]" (Moroni 8:8)

The question is:

How can the "greater" be a curse to his posterity, according to God, and He who removed the curse and saved the "greater" (and all his posterity) from the fall and death, be the "lesser"?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I don't know what specific question you are talking about, give me a reference and I'll do my best.

I post it again, for your convenience:

So you keep asserting that Adam is greater than Christ.

Consider this:

You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; ..." (Moses 4:23)

"the curse of Adam is taken from them in me [Christ]" (Moroni 8:8)

The question is:

How can the "greater" be a curse to his posterity, according to God, and He who removed the curse and saved the "greater" (and all his posterity) from the fall and death, be the "lesser"?

is this scripture, where did it come from?
You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.
I suspect it is not or it contains error

however
You are cursed in the name of Adam => For as in Adam all die
Because of Adam we have mortal bodies which contain the seeds of death, so we will die
If not for Adam, we would we would not have mortal bodies and therefore not die.

your are blessed in the name of Christ => even so in Christ shall all be made alive
after we die Christ will redeem us if ... when ...

There is nothing in these two statements that establishes any hierarchical relationship
so there is no evidence one way or another.

You will have to look else where for evidence to determine the hierarchy.

If you wish, I can provide it.
- either in straight direct statements from Brigham Young
- or follow some logic in the cannon of scripture
- or both if you chose, but I wouldn't want to offend you with too much "garbage"

what would you like?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Instead of waiting for your answer here it is, I made it as short as I could while covering as much as I could

Just to be thorough:
Adam and Michael are the same personage.

D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

And Michael is not "a" but "the" archangel. (only one)

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

What is an archangel – the word is prefixed arch-angel

What is the meaning of the root word Arch?
It comes from the GREEK archos. From this basic meaning it is associated with chief or head or king or origin in one way or another. You can make many words with ARCH, from ARCHbishop to ARCHfoe, from ARCHfriend to ARCHilar.

And what is an angel?

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King Angel
or Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones
Whereas Christ does not yet have a physical body – mortal or immortal

Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

So who has greater power? Adam or Christ?
that would be Adam.
Is a person of greater power superior or subordinate to one of lesser power
that would be superior
Therefore Adam is superior to Christ.

Back to Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones would make him God the Father.
And looking at “Adam, the father of all” might make sense as the father of all the spirits that come to this world rather that father of all mortals, which he is not.

And all of the above give credibility to

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

At least this teaching of Brigham Young is in complete harmony with the cannon of scripture.
And of course it would.
Joseph Smith taught this to Brigham - “ and Joseph taught this principle”
Joseph Smith translated and brought forth the Book of Mormon
and the D&C is mostly revelations given to Joseph Smith
why would anyone expect anything else?

[LoveIsTruth]

I don't know what specific question you are talking about, give me a reference and I'll do my best.

I post it again, for your convenience:

So you keep asserting that Adam is greater than Christ.

Consider this:

You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; ..." (Moses 4:23)

"the curse of Adam is taken from them in me [Christ]" (Moroni 8:8)

The question is:

How can the "greater" be a curse to his posterity, according to God, and He who removed the curse and saved the "greater" (and all his posterity) from the fall and death, be the "lesser"?

You are cursed in the name of Adam => For as in Adam all die
Because of Adam we have mortal bodies which contain the seeds of death, so we will die
If not for Adam, we would we would not have mortal bodies and therefore not die.

your are blessed in the name of Christ => even so in Christ shall all be made alive
after we die Christ will redeem us if ... when ...

There is nothing in these two statements that establishes any hierarchical relationship
so there is no evidence one way or another.

Really?

• "an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: ... This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father [who's Father? Adam's Father! Therefore the Only Begotten is the Son of Adam's Father, not of Adam! It is obvious!], which is full of grace and truth.
  Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.
  And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father [not of Adam!] from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." (Moses 5:6-9)

Jesus never transgressed: "Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." ( D&C 20:21-22)

Adam did transgress: "Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." (D&C 29:40)

Why would the "greater" be less righteous, and therefore in need of being redeemed by the "lesser?"
Is not greatness and therefore intelligence measured by obedience to the commandments of God in the long run?
Jesus didn't need to be redeemed, because he was perfect and blameless. Adam did need redemption because he "became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." (D&C 29:40) Which is greater: that which is perfect and needs no redemption, or that which is imperfect and needs redemption and a Savior?

Why would the "greater" be commanded to repent, believe in the "lesser" and be baptized in the name of the "lesser", and worship God in the name of the "lesser" forever more.

Are you out of your mind?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I don't know what specific question you are talking about, give me a reference and I'll do my best.

I post it again, for your convenience:

So you keep asserting that Adam is greater than Christ.

Consider this:

You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; ..." (Moses 4:23)

"the curse of Adam is taken from them in me [Christ]" (Moroni 8:8)

The question is:

How can the "greater" be a curse to his posterity, according to God, and He who removed the curse and saved the "greater" (and all his posterity) from the fall and death, be the "lesser"?

You are cursed in the name of Adam => For as in Adam all die
Because of Adam we have mortal bodies which contain the seeds of death, so we will die
If not for Adam, we would we would not have mortal bodies and therefore not die.

your are blessed in the name of Christ => even so in Christ shall all be made alive
after we die Christ will redeem us if ... when ...

There is nothing in these two statements that establishes any hierarchical relationship
so there is no evidence one way or another.

Really?

• "an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: ... This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father [who's Father? Adam's Father! Therefore the Only Begotten is the Son of Adam's Father, not of Adam! It is obvious!], which is full of grace and truth.
  Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.
  And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father [not of Adam!] from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." (Moses 5:6-9)

Jesus never transgressed: "Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." ( D&C 20:21-22)

Adam did transgress: "Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." (D&C 29:40)

Why would the "greater" be less righteous, and therefore in need of being redeemed by the "lesser?"
Is not greatness and therefore intelligence measured by obedience to the commandments of God in the long run?
Jesus didn't need to be redeemed, because he was perfect and blameless. Adam did need redemption because he "became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." (D&C 29:40) Which is greater: that which is perfect and needs no redemption, or that which is imperfect and needs redemption and a Savior?

Why would the "greater" be commanded to repent, believe in the "lesser" and be baptized in the name of the "lesser", and worship God in the name of the "lesser" forever more.

Are you out of your mind?

I am under no obligation to answer you and I was really hesitant to offer yo and answer you question because I am quite tired of the mocking and critical attitude. 95% of the responses have been really negative, rude, mocking and have misrepresented what I have said. and I'm pretty sure that is going to be blamed on me as well.

So, if you really want an answer, change the attitude.
A friend and I discovered this doctrine about the same time, his attitude was like yours. he kick and faught it, but eventually he finally said "I have no choice, It is true".
where as my attitude was, "I don't understand, this is what I've been taught, how can I harmonize the two. Thing came easily and peacefully with much inspiration as to where to look. Totally different experience than my friend. However, I know of no other with a stronger testimony of this doctrine than he.

So, if you want an answer from me, treat me with a little respect and ask questions rather than criticism answers.
It's up to you, but I'm just not going to respond to that kind of attitude anymore, I don't have to.

[LoveIsTruth]

Instead of waiting for your answer here it is, I made it as short as I could while covering as much as I could

Just to be thorough:
Adam and Michael are the same personage.

D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

And Michael is not "a" but "the" archangel. (only one)

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

What is an archangel – the word is prefixed arch-angel

What is the meaning of the root word Arch?
It comes from the GREEK archos. From this basic meaning it is associated with chief or head or king or origin in one way or another. You can make many words with ARCH, from ARCHbishop to ARCHfoe, from ARCHfriend to ARCHilar.

And what is an angel?

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King Angel

So far so good.

or Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones

Now he does, after Christ's resurrection. Back then he didn't because resurrected bodies do not die, but Adam did die.

Whereas Christ does not yet have a physical body – mortal or immortal

Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Yes, back then Christ did not have a corporal body. Now he does. And only after Christ was resurrected was Adam resurrected.

"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead," (Acts 26:23)

"Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise." ( 2 Ne. 2:8)

So who has greater power? Adam or Christ?

Which one of them has the power to redeem and resurrect the other? According to scriptures it is Christ. Christ redeemed Adam. Not the other way around!

that would be Adam.

Then you are a fool.

Is a person of greater power superior or subordinate to one of lesser power
that would be superior
Therefore Adam is superior to Christ.

As I said, you have a problem with reason, my friend. Big problem!

Back to Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones would make him God the Father.

He was not resurrected back then in the garden because he died. And resurrected bodies do not die.

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." (Gen. 5:5) And this is according to the words of God who said to Adam, if Adam transgressed: he "shalt surely die." (Alma 12:23) Which Adam did. So he was not a resurrected personage in the garden.

And looking at “Adam, the father of all” might make sense as the father of all the spirits that come to this world rather that father of all mortals, which he is not.

He is fore-father of the mortals. That's what "father" in this context means. Because the scriptures teach we are the spirit children of the same being who created Adam.

And all of the above give credibility to

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

Fore-father. Not the direct Father, unless you make the words of God void.

At least this teaching of Brigham Young is in complete harmony with the cannon of scripture.

It is in complete contradiction to the canon of scripture, as I just demonstrated to you.

And of course it would.
Joseph Smith taught this to Brigham - “ and Joseph taught this principle”
Joseph Smith translated and brought forth the Book of Mormon
and the D&C is mostly revelations given to Joseph Smith
why would anyone expect anything else?

Because it contradicts the scriptures, logic, and reason, and the revealed word of God. Trifles like these.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

that would be Adam.

Then you are a fool.

Is a person of greater power superior or subordinate to one of lesser power
that would be superior
Therefore Adam is superior to Christ.

As I said, you have a problem with reason, my friend. Big problem!
Not your friend - not my problem

Then I will stop being a fool, nice talking to ya, bye

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

OK now I'm going to really raise some eyebrows, and some eyer no doubt.

I used this scripture to show that Michael is the archangel.
and indeed, Michael is always the name of the archangel - king angel - king immortal

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

And in most other places, Michael refers to Our Current Father.
But in this verse it does not, it's all about timing.
These verses refer to the time after Adam-Ondi-Aham.
After all the keys to preside over the earth have been returned to Adam, our Current Father.
And After Adam then bestows them all on Christ, because it is his world now, he bought and paid for it.
And now Christ become the Adam/Michael of the world to come.
So in this case, it refers to Our Current Christ.
So, I wonder who the next Christ is.


Believe, don't believe, whatever.

[LoveIsTruth]

You should wonder where your reason's gone. You are delirious!

[MODERATOR NOTE: this is inappropriate.]

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

You should wonder where your reason's gone. You are delirious!

That's the kind of Christian response I've come to expect from you.

[LoveIsTruth]

You should wonder where your reason's gone. You are delirious!

That's the kind of Christian response I've come to expect from you.

It's quite accurate, because you are incapable of answering questions, because if you did, honestly, the insanity of your position would be clearly manifested.

Did Adam redeem Christ, or did Christ redeem Adam?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

You should wonder where your reason's gone. You are delirious!

That's the kind of Christian response I've come to expect from you.

It's quite accurate, because you are incapable of answering questions, because if you did, honestly, the insanity of your position would be clearly manifested.

Did Adam redeem Christ, or did Christ redeem Adam?

I'm wondering what your credentials are that you can judge mental acuity and health
from a few written lines. That is amazing.

[LoveIsTruth]

Here you go again. Dodging the question, because you CANNOT answer it without revealing how insane your position really is!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I don.t understand. you say I have mental issues but you are demanding that I answer your questions?

[LoveIsTruth]

Ha ha. I ask you questions so it may be readily apparent to those that read your responses, that your position is fundamentally insane.

For your sake though, I hope you are just a good man blinded by incorrect belief in "authority." But alas, this is a lesson you must yet learn or your fate will be like that described in (1 Kings. 13:18-24 ), where one prophet believed another in contravention to the word of God.

[MODERATOR NOTE: This comment is inappropriate]

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Ha ha. I ask you questions so it may be readily apparent to those that read your responses, that your position is fundamentally insane.

For your sake though, I hope you are just a good man blinded by incorrect believe in "authority."

Speaking of authority,
here is some authority on the subject
I suppose i have the same mental acuity and health he does

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

[LoveIsTruth]

Prophets can be wrong in their personal opinions. Joseph told you so. But you do not believe even him!

But this is a lesson you must yet learn or your fate will be like that described in (1 Kings. 13:18-24 ), where one prophet believed another in contravention to the word of God.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I guess it is possible the the entire First Presidency and Quorum of Apostles that taught it right up until their deaths
could be wrong. Even when they taught in public speeches, General Conference, and public newspaper, thy just might be wrong.
and even when one of them was almost excommunicated for teaching against it, but he repented and returned to full fellowship
in the 12, it still might me possible. And even the ancient early christian writings of the Churches in the years following the death of the Savior taught it, well maybe.
But I wouldn't bet on it.
It seems as though you are, but the odds are really really really long.

[LoveIsTruth]

I guess it is possible the the entire First Presidency and Quorum of Apostles that taught it right up until their deaths
could be wrong. Even when they taught in public speeches, General Conference, and public newspaper, thy just might be wrong.
and even when one of them was almost excommunicated for teaching against it, but he repented and returned to full fellowship
in the 12, it still might me possible. And even the ancient early christian writings of the Churches in the years following the death of the Savior taught it, well maybe.
But I wouldn't bet on it.
It seems as though you are, but the odds are really really really long.

The "odds" of 2+2=4 are ABSOLUTE. They are as certain as the pillars of heaven. Even more.

And unless you take Reason as your guide, you can never be saved, because Reason is the Truth, and the language of the Gods.

Reason, and the words of God, including those in canonized scriptures of this true Church tell me with ABSOLUTE certainty that Jesus saved Adam and Adam's posterity from fall and death, both spiritual and temporal, on conditions of repentance. And the Spirit of God testifies to me the same. Therefore Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, and NOT of Adam, who is a god under Jesus, and is in need of Jesus' mercy and redemption, which he certainly received.

That is my testimony to you, friend. Forgive me for being harsh. I simply found this insult to reason to be unbearable! But I am certain you mean well. You are just deluded with a false doctrine (according to Spencer W. Kimball as well).

Cheers.

[LoveIsTruth]

Everyone, I just realized something interesting:

The false idea that "there was no other way for Adam" that was started by the devil, and that so many still believe, is directly derived from the false idea that Adam is greater than Jesus.

One follows the other. Both are false.

One "Adam greater than Jesus" nonsense has been officially denounced by the Church in 1976 through Spencer W. Kimball; the other that "there was no other way" for Adam but to partake, contrary to God's commandment, still lingers, but it too will fall, just as sure as the first falsehood fell!

Truth is unconquerable. All will learn this. All.

He who has ears to hear let him hear.

[LoveIsTruth]

So, I wonder who the next Christ is.

I think it is obvious. The next Christ is the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead. And the next Father is Christ.

[LoveIsTruth]

The Title given Michael(Adam), the archangel (king resurrected being) proves who he is. And D&C 129 is supporting evidence that he was a resurrected being of flesh and bones while Christ (before the Atonement) was a being of spirit body.

No disharmony here. Yet it goes ignored.

Can a resurrected body die? I hope you agree that it cannot. Yet the scripture says:

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." (Gen. 5:5) And in another place it says that if Adam did NOT die, it would make God a liar: "And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." (Alma 12:23)

Thus unless you throw away the Scriptures, or call God a liar, you have an irrefutable proof that Adam did die, which directly contradicts what you are saying, because resurrected bodies CANNOT die.

Secondly, Adam was called Michael, the archangel even before his resurrection, just like Jesus, who is Jehovah, was called the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, even before he was born. You have to agree that Jesus (Jehovah) was a God even BEFORE his birth, for scriptures tell us that much. And so is the Holy Ghost a God, even though he does not yet have a body. So if being a God is accurate for people before they are even born, why being an archangel is not accurate for Adam BEFORE his resurrection? It is. So calling Adam archangel does not mean he was already resurrected. It is a title he had even BEFORE God put into him the breath of life and gave him a body.

Thirdly, after the resurrection, many of those who are not gods will also be called angels. "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."(D&C 132:17) So having a body, or even a resurrected body, does not make you greater in intelligence and authority than Jehovah, the God of the whole earth, who was so even BEFORE his birth and resurrection.

Cain will also be resurrected, but he is not greater than Jehovah in intelligence and authority before or after Jehovah's birth.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory." ( D&C 88:24 )

"And they who remain shall also be quickened [resurrected]; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." ( D&C 88:32 )

So your logic that resurrection somehow makes one spirit greater in intelligence and authority than another is wrong, because if that were true, then resurrected Cain, who will go to outer darkness after his resurrection, will be greater in intelligence and authority than the God of Israel, Jehovah, before He was born, which I hope you agree is utter lunacy!

So your logic and reasoning are fundamentally broken on this point, my friend.

The only question remains, are you man enough to admit that your were wrong?

But whether you do or not, it does not change the truth that Jesus, before and after his resurrection, was greater than Adam in intelligence and authority, and that Jesus redeemed (and resurrected) Adam, and not the other way around!

[LoveIsTruth]

Brigham, the best man to teach the true nature of God, told us that much of the Garden story is a hollow toad stool story, a fable designed to hide more than it teaches. A story to satisfy but not to teach enough to condemn.

Most of the scriptures you contradict about Adam and the Garden are modern day revelations received through and recorded by Joseph himself. What you are saying contradicts: The Book Of Mormon, The Book of Moses in the Perle of Great Price, and the D&C, all received by revelation through Joseph himself.

So your statement about thousand year old, and therefore supposedly irrelevant scriptures is totally wrong. Why? Because it was given by God anew (He could have given anything else) in THIS dispensation for OUR day, through a modern-day Prophet of God, through a proper channel of unanimous consent of the authorities of the church, which God himself appointed.

"Adam greater than Jesus" garbage violates that channel, because that doctrine was officially condemned in 1976 by Spencer W. Kimball, a prophet for the Church. And more importantly it contradicts reason and the revealed word of God.

And besides, you have to agree, that canonized modern day scripture received by revelation of God has more weight than un-canonized, and officially condemned by a Prophet in 1976, personal opinions of earlier prophets at odds with reason and with the revealed word of God.

Joseph taught you this. But you do not believe him.

Moreover you are incapable of answering questions because it quickly collapses the entire house of cards you promote.

> Did Adam die after the fall?

> What about point by point refutation of your analysis of D&C 129 I gave you in the previous post?

No answer? Of course not. Because you CANNOT answer anything except "Brigham and Joseph said it." Yet it is in direct contradiction of what the scriptures and reason say.

It is not enough to say "Joseph or Brigham said it." Let's agree on that at least! Why? Because Joseph himself said it is NOT enough.

What is enough? Proof by reason based on revealed word of God, including that in, and in harmony with, canonized scriptures of this Church.

> Can we agree at least on that?

Thanks.

Unless you missed it ">" means a specific question. And if you cannot, or do not answer them, it proves my point that you CANNOT answer them without collapsing the whole house of cards you cling to.

[LoveIsTruth]

Here is another great way to prove that Jesus is over Adam:

It is a 3 step proof:

Step 1: Adam (Michael) is not the Most High:
"saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman;
Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life." ( D&C 78:15,16 )

Step 2: Jesus is the Son of the Most High:
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. (1 Nephi 11:6 )

Step 3: Therefore Jesus is NOT the direct son of Adam, and Adam is NOT the direct Father of Jesus.

Done.

This should put an end to this lunacy!