The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I don't owe it to you to answer your questions.
However, I did, it's not my fault you don't understand.

You cannot answer it without people seeing how crazy your theory really is!

THIS IS OFFENSIVE, IT IS NOT MY THEORY.
IT IS DOCUMENTED FACT THAT JOSEPH, BRIGHAM, AND THE 12 TAUGHT IT.

[LoveIsTruth]

Besides you say Christ, the Only Begotten, did not redeem Adam. Yet the scripture says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

I rest my case. I think there is enough evidence to prove your theory false.

He is not talking to Adam, he is talking about Adam when he is talking to us saying "thou hast fallen".

Try again.

Adam is the fallen one in this context. So the Son of God is talking to him. Or you say that Adam did not fall?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I don't owe it to you to answer your questions.
However, I did, it's not my fault you don't understand.

You cannot answer it without people seeing how crazy your theory really is!

And I did answer your question.
And you continue to demonstrate that it is beyond your grasp.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Besides you say Christ, the Only Begotten, did not redeem Adam. Yet the scripture says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

I rest my case. I think there is enough evidence to prove your theory false.

He is not talking to Adam, he is talking about Adam when he is talking to us saying "thou hast fallen".

Try again.

Adam is the fallen one in this context. So the Son of God is talking to him. Or you say that Adam did not fall?

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam" is about, not to Adam.

[LoveIsTruth]

In the endowment "Elohim" always refers to the Father of Jesus and of Adam. Hence Jesus and Adam are brothers.

And you have not answered why God said to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

I don't owe it to you to answer your questions.
However, I did, it's not my fault you don't understand.

You cannot answer it without people seeing how crazy your theory really is!

And I did answer your question.
And you continue to demonstrate that it is beyond your grasp.

I don't remember you answering it. Would you be so kind to repeat your answer, please? Thanks.

[LoveIsTruth]

Besides you say Christ, the Only Begotten, did not redeem Adam. Yet the scripture says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

I rest my case. I think there is enough evidence to prove your theory false.

He is not talking to Adam, he is talking about Adam when he is talking to us saying "thou hast fallen".

Try again.

Adam is the fallen one in this context. So the Son of God is talking to him. Or you say that Adam did not fall?

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam" is about, not to Adam.

Is not Adam the fallen one in this context?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Here are official words of a Prophet:

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church, October General Conference 1976. "Our Own Liahona"
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... a?lang=eng

And yet again, the Adam God theory is something that apostates taught.
Brigham and Joseph did not teach theory, they taught revelations fro God.

You are the apostate. You teach that Adam is the Most High. So the words of Spencer W. Kimball apply directly to you!

I HAVE NEVER TAUGHT ADAM GOD THEORY.
I HAVE ONLY PRESENTED THE REVELATIONS TAUGHT BY JOSEPH AND BRIGHAM.
The scriptures teach that Adam is the most high.
Michael(Adam) is the archangel. The scriptures teach that.
The scriptures also teach that Adam is the ancient of days, one of the titles/descriptions of God the Father.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

He is not talking to Adam, he is talking about Adam when he is talking to us saying "thou hast fallen".

Try again.

Adam is the fallen one in this context. So the Son of God is talking to him. Or you say that Adam did not fall?

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam" is about, not to Adam.

Is not Adam the fallen one in this context?

I don't see where it says that.

But this is Moses, after the true identity and nature of God was removed from the scriptures
because of the wickedness of the Israelites.

Why do you keep beating on me, It is not my doctrine
it was revealed to Joseph and Brigham, and the 12.
Go take it up with them. Go tell them they are wrong.

I get that you don't believe it.
It is ok with me that you don't believe it.
I'm not forcing it on you.
I'm not demanding anything of you.

And the threat "you better change you position" is completely inappropriate. (before you go off, I didn't say who offered this threat, nor am I implying anyone in particular did - but I did receive that threat)

[freedomforall]

Here are official words of a Prophet:

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church, October General Conference 1976. "Our Own Liahona"
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... a?lang=eng

And yet again, the Adam God theory is something that apostates taught.
Brigham and Joseph did not teach theory, they taught revelations fro God.

Guess again.

Adam–God doctrine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Adam–God doctrine (or Adam–God theory) was a theological doctrine taught in mid-19th century Mormonism by church president Brigham Young, and accepted to some degree by later presidents John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff, and by apostles who served under them in the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Although rejected today by the LDS Church, the doctrine is still an accepted part of the modern theology of some Mormon fundamentalists.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/col ... misgod.htm

Do Mormons believe that Adam is God?

Any reference which claims that Young taught that Adam was God the Father and the Father of Jesus Christ, if it is intellectually honest, must deal with the many issues which I have brought up here, and which all of the anti-Mormon sites discussing the Adam-God doctrine ignore (*without exception!*).

Namely,

1. When taken in context, the whole point of Young's 1852 sermon seems to be to contrast views of the Holy Ghost fathering Jesus vs. God the Father. In the sermon he indicates Eloheim is God the Father.

2. In numerous places, Young states that Adam is Michael, not Eloheim.

3. The statement that Adam is our god is consistent when viewed in a "chain of command" context. There are numerous statements by both Young and Smith to the effect that Adam presides over the spirits of all men.

4. In numerous places Young refers to the Father as a separate being from Michael.

5. In numerous places, Adam is referred to as having "sinned".

6. In many places, Young says that Jesus was begotten by his Father in heaven.

7. Church leaders from as far back as I can find (~1910) have denied that the church teaches the doctrine of Adam being God the Father.

8. In many places Young refers to Adam as being distinct from the Lord (having received commandments from the Lord, etc.), and in many places Young equates the Lord with our Father in heaven.

9. In the hundreds and hundreds of pages of Young's sermons, only a handful (2 or 3) of them have reference to his supposed view of Adam as God the Father; conversely there are plenty of references to the traditional view of Adam.

10. In at least one case I quoted, Young is crystal clear about distinguishing between the Father of Jesus and Adam: (Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.238, Brigham Young, July 24, 1853) "I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ... the Bible declares He [the Father] has a corporeal body; that in His likeness, precisely, He created Adam."

11. In another case, Young says Adam "walked and talked with and knew the God of heaven."

12. In many other cases, Michael is called an "archangel", and is clearly distinguished from the Father and the Son.

13. Young calls Eloheim, "God our heavenly father."

14. Adam in included in lists of the prophets (i.e., along with Enoch, Noah, etc.), clearly equating Adam's role in history with that of other mortal men and not with God.

15. Other church leaders from the same time period (Pratt, Taylor, Kimball) also clearly distinguish between Adam and God the Father (including mentions of God our Father giving instructions to Adam, and Adam being mentioned as a "servant of God", distinct from "the Father and the Son").
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A sermon delivered by President Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle,

Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852.
It is my intention to preach several discourses this evening, but how many I do not know.

"My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. ...
...bringing the Elders into great difficulties."

OK, let me give you my immediate reactions to the text:

1. BY says this is a "sermon", not a revelation.

2. The point of the sermon, as mentioned in the first paragraph, is to discuss "who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary." Note that in this context, BY mentions that the Son and the Father have physical bodies ("person of tabernacle"), but not the Holy Spirit.

3. He doesn't seem to like the "infidel" view that "God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ"

4. BY does say that Adam is "the only God with whom WE have to do".

6. Regarding the father of Christ, it is very unclear to me as to whether BY is referring to God the Father (Elohim), or to Adam. He says the father was the "first of the human family", which would imply Adam (but not necessarily, since Elohim could be interpreted as the first of the human family via the Mormon doctrine that we can become like God). Also, the antecedent in this sentence is not clear: "when he [he who?] took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven..." Is it Adam? Is it the Father? Is it Jesus? I personally think the sentence makes the most sense if "he" refers to Jesus, since the begetting of Jesus seems to be the central theme of the sermon. Thus, BY is saying Jesus's tabernacle was begotten by the Father (as opposed to the Holy Spirit). Yet, it could easily be parsed as either of the other two choices I mentioned. It is rather ironic that he concludes this very ambiguous section by saying that other preachers when trying to expound on the subject, "tell nothing".

Likewise, when BY says "the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven", it is ambiguous, since Mormon doctrine (esp. temple ceremony) teaches clearly that Elohim visited Adam in the garden of Eden. Thus, the "character" could be either Adam, or God the Father.

7. BY *does* clearly differentiate between the Father and Adam in the following paragraph, referring to "Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael".

8. The concluding statement seems to have been the heart of BY's message: "remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost".

My personal opinion is that the whole point of BY's address was to teach that Jesus Christ was begotten by God the Father, rather than the Holy Ghost. I don't think he was teaching that Adam = God the Father, since (as I mention in point #7) he clearly distinguishes between the two. I'm not sure where he was going with the statement that Adam is our Father and our God; perhaps it was symbolic of the priesthood "chain of command". I also do not think that he was claiming Adam was the father of Jesus Christ, since the entire point of the sermon seems to be that Jesus was begotten by God the Father (as compared to the Holy Ghost).

I think that many of these ambiguities were due to problems in the recording; however, it seems like BY should have cleared them up before written publication (assuming he was still around when it was published).

In any case, it seems that if BY really believed that Adam is the same as God the Father, he would have said so on other occasions. Practically no other references to him teaching this exist. If BY wanted the church to teach this doctrine, other church leaders would have also taught the doctrine. That does not seem to be the case. As near as I can tell, the LDS church has *never* taught that Adam is God the Father, or that Adam is the Father of Jesus.

Again, taken from: https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/col ... misgod.htm
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... God_theory

Brigham Young gave over 1,500 sermons (NOT ALL REVELATIONS) that were recorded by transcribers. Many of these were published in the Journal of Discourses, the Deseret Evening News, and other Church publications. In about 20 of these he brought up the subject of God the Father's relationship to Adam. Many of his comments fit easily into current LDS doctrine, while some have engendered controversy.

Adam-God was eventually incorporated into the teaching of some 20th century polygamous break-off sects, who consider it a doctrine whose absence in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is proof that the Church is in apostasy.

Rejection of Adam-God by the LDS Church

As far as can be determined, none of Brigham Young's successors in the presidency of the Church continued this teaching in public, and by the presidency of Joseph F. Smith (1901–18) there were active moves to censure small groups that taught Adam-God.

One of the earliest statements from the Church rejecting Adam-God teachings was made by Charles W. Penrose in 1902:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never formulated or adopted any theory concerning the subject treated upon by President Young as to Adam.[5]

In October 1976 general conference, Spencer W. Kimball declared the Church's official position on Adam-God:

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.[6]

Again, taken from : https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... God_theory
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, the Adam-God doctrine and Adam-God theory is one and the same.
This doctrine isn't worth the paper it is written on.
This doctrine was never accepted as canon.
It is highly likely that interpretations from early transcribers was amiss.
Only Fundamentalist groups still teach this stuff
This doctrine has been denounced by modern day prophets...those way beyond 1852 that is.
One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink.
One cannot go to heaven with one foot in hell
One cannot go to heaven on the shirt tail of another.
Don't trust in the arm of flesh, including ourselves.

Prov 3:5,6
5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;

and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,

and he shall direct thy paths.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Here are official words of a Prophet:

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church, October General Conference 1976. "Our Own Liahona"
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... a?lang=eng

And yet again, the Adam God theory is something that apostates taught.
Brigham and Joseph did not teach theory, they taught revelations fro God.

Guess again.

Adam–God doctrine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Adam–God doctrine (or Adam–God theory) was a theological doctrine taught in mid-19th century Mormonism by church president Brigham Young, and accepted to some degree by later presidents John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff, and by apostles who served under them in the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Although rejected today by the LDS Church, the doctrine is still an accepted part of the modern theology of some Mormon fundamentalists.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/col ... misgod.htm

Do Mormons believe that Adam is God?

Any reference which claims that Young taught that Adam was God the Father and the Father of Jesus Christ, if it is intellectually honest, must deal with the many issues which I have brought up here, and which all of the anti-Mormon sites discussing the Adam-God doctrine ignore (*without exception!*).

Namely,

1. When taken in context, the whole point of Young's 1852 sermon seems to be to contrast views of the Holy Ghost fathering Jesus vs. God the Father. In the sermon he indicates Eloheim is God the Father.

2. In numerous places, Young states that Adam is Michael, not Eloheim.

3. The statement that Adam is our god is consistent when viewed in a "chain of command" context. There are numerous statements by both Young and Smith to the effect that Adam presides over the spirits of all men.

4. In numerous places Young refers to the Father as a separate being from Michael.

5. In numerous places, Adam is referred to as having "sinned".

6. In many places, Young says that Jesus was begotten by his Father in heaven.

7. Church leaders from as far back as I can find (~1910) have denied that the church teaches the doctrine of Adam being God the Father.

8. In many places Young refers to Adam as being distinct from the Lord (having received commandments from the Lord, etc.), and in many places Young equates the Lord with our Father in heaven.

9. In the hundreds and hundreds of pages of Young's sermons, only a handful (2 or 3) of them have reference to his supposed view of Adam as God the Father; conversely there are plenty of references to the traditional view of Adam.

10. In at least one case I quoted, Young is crystal clear about distinguishing between the Father of Jesus and Adam: (Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.238, Brigham Young, July 24, 1853) "I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ... the Bible declares He [the Father] has a corporeal body; that in His likeness, precisely, He created Adam."

11. In another case, Young says Adam "walked and talked with and knew the God of heaven."

12. In many other cases, Michael is called an "archangel", and is clearly distinguished from the Father and the Son.

13. Young calls Eloheim, "God our heavenly father."

14. Adam in included in lists of the prophets (i.e., along with Enoch, Noah, etc.), clearly equating Adam's role in history with that of other mortal men and not with God.

15. Other church leaders from the same time period (Pratt, Taylor, Kimball) also clearly distinguish between Adam and God the Father (including mentions of God our Father giving instructions to Adam, and Adam being mentioned as a "servant of God", distinct from "the Father and the Son").
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A sermon delivered by President Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle,

Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852.
It is my intention to preach several discourses this evening, but how many I do not know.

"My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. ...
...bringing the Elders into great difficulties."

OK, let me give you my immediate reactions to the text:

1. BY says this is a "sermon", not a revelation.

2. The point of the sermon, as mentioned in the first paragraph, is to discuss "who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary." Note that in this context, BY mentions that the Son and the Father have physical bodies ("person of tabernacle"), but not the Holy Spirit.

3. He doesn't seem to like the "infidel" view that "God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ"

4. BY does say that Adam is "the only God with whom WE have to do".

6. Regarding the father of Christ, it is very unclear to me as to whether BY is referring to God the Father (Elohim), or to Adam. He says the father was the "first of the human family", which would imply Adam (but not necessarily, since Elohim could be interpreted as the first of the human family via the Mormon doctrine that we can become like God). Also, the antecedent in this sentence is not clear: "when he [he who?] took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven..." Is it Adam? Is it the Father? Is it Jesus? I personally think the sentence makes the most sense if "he" refers to Jesus, since the begetting of Jesus seems to be the central theme of the sermon. Thus, BY is saying Jesus's tabernacle was begotten by the Father (as opposed to the Holy Spirit). Yet, it could easily be parsed as either of the other two choices I mentioned. It is rather ironic that he concludes this very ambiguous section by saying that other preachers when trying to expound on the subject, "tell nothing".

Likewise, when BY says "the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven", it is ambiguous, since Mormon doctrine (esp. temple ceremony) teaches clearly that Elohim visited Adam in the garden of Eden. Thus, the "character" could be either Adam, or God the Father.

7. BY *does* clearly differentiate between the Father and Adam in the following paragraph, referring to "Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael".

8. The concluding statement seems to have been the heart of BY's message: "remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost".

My personal opinion is that the whole point of BY's address was to teach that Jesus Christ was begotten by God the Father, rather than the Holy Ghost. I don't think he was teaching that Adam = God the Father, since (as I mention in point #7) he clearly distinguishes between the two. I'm not sure where he was going with the statement that Adam is our Father and our God; perhaps it was symbolic of the priesthood "chain of command". I also do not think that he was claiming Adam was the father of Jesus Christ, since the entire point of the sermon seems to be that Jesus was begotten by God the Father (as compared to the Holy Ghost).

I think that many of these ambiguities were due to problems in the recording; however, it seems like BY should have cleared them up before written publication (assuming he was still around when it was published).

In any case, it seems that if BY really believed that Adam is the same as God the Father, he would have said so on other occasions. Practically no other references to him teaching this exist. If BY wanted the church to teach this doctrine, other church leaders would have also taught the doctrine. That does not seem to be the case. As near as I can tell, the LDS church has *never* taught that Adam is God the Father, or that Adam is the Father of Jesus.

Again, taken from: https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/col ... misgod.htm
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... God_theory

Brigham Young gave over 1,500 sermons (NOT REVELATIONS) that were recorded by transcribers. Many of these were published in the Journal of Discourses, the Deseret Evening News, and other Church publications. In about 20 of these he brought up the subject of God the Father's relationship to Adam. Many of his comments fit easily into current LDS doctrine, while some have engendered controversy.

Adam-God was eventually incorporated into the teaching of some 20th century polygamous break-off sects, who consider it a doctrine whose absence in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is proof that the Church is in apostasy.

Rejection of Adam-God by the LDS Church

As far as can be determined, none of Brigham Young's successors in the presidency of the Church continued this teaching in public, and by the presidency of Joseph F. Smith (1901–18) there were active moves to censure small groups that taught Adam-God.

One of the earliest statements from the Church rejecting Adam-God teachings was made by Charles W. Penrose in 1902:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never formulated or adopted any theory concerning the subject treated upon by President Young as to Adam.[5]

In October 1976 general conference, Spencer W. Kimball declared the Church's official position on Adam-God:

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.[6]

Again, taken from : https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... God_theory
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, the Adam-God doctrine and Adam-God theory is one and the same.
This doctrine isn't worth the paper it is written on.
This doctrine was never accepted as canon.
It is highly likely that interpretations from early transcribers was amiss.
Only Fundamentalist groups still teach this stuff
This doctrine has been denounced by modern day prophets...those way beyond 1852 that is.
One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink.
One cannot go to heaven with one foot in hell
One cannot go to heaven on the shirt tail of another.
Don't trust in the arm of flesh, including ourselves.

Prov 3:5,6
5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;

and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,

and he shall direct thy paths.

None of this is from the cannon of scripture, why are you bothering with all of it?
You believe anything anyone says except Joseph, Brigham et al.
Most websites that contain Adam God are apostate or anti mormon.

Have you found the Adam God Theory Document?
Joseph and Brigham did not teach theory, they taught revelations.

What Joseph and Brigham taught was not alleged, it is recorded fact, in documents supported by the church.

[freedomforall]

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Now remove some words and see what it says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, saying: ...thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

The operative word here is "SAYING." The Holy Ghost fell upon who? Adam......."saying".......that thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed....

Try again to interpret this wrongly!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Now remove some words and see what it says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, saying: ...thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

The operative word here is "SAYING." The Holy Ghost fell upon who? Adam......."saying".......that thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed....

Try again to interpret this wrongly!

What ever, here interpret these.

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

[freedomforall]

Most websites that contain Adam God are apostate or anti mormon.

Have you found the Adam God Theory Document? If you look at Adam-God doctrine you are looking at Adam-God theory...it is one and the same crap proven by smarter men in the church.
Joseph and Brigham did not teach theory, they taught revelations. According to thorough research by smarter men, this doctrine was not from any revelations, merely sermons...clearly not the same thing. Think outside the proverbial box, man.

What Joseph and Brigham taught was not alleged, it is recorded fact, in documents supported by the church. And I'm certain you can provide these so called documents? You need badly to get your facts straight, instead of grasping at straws and calling them truth. This whole Adam-God nonsense is nothing but a huge strawman that has been knocked down time and again by those in the know.

I doubt, highly, that you even took the time to read my posted snippets of material, let alone find out how creditable the sources are. Do you want truth and facts or just theories you want to cling to and call facts?

[freedomforall]

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

Now remove some words and see what it says:

"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, saying: ...thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

The operative word here is "SAYING." The Holy Ghost fell upon who? Adam......."saying".......that thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed....

Try again to interpret this wrongly!

What ever, ...whatever? You have been emphatically proven wrong and you say whatever? You cannot acknowledge your blatant disregard for how scripture actually reads, and you say whatever?

The following stuff is old news to be discarded immediately. It is from sermons not revelations, if you were to check. I did check, because I wanted to know. This crap is nothing more than a huge strawman that has been knocked down repeatedly...and the only one trying to keep it upright is you.

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

[freedomforall]

As far as can be determined, none of Brigham Young's successors in the presidency of the Church continued this teaching in public, and by the presidency of Joseph F. Smith (1901–18) there were active moves to censure small groups that taught Adam-God.

One of the earliest statements from the Church rejecting Adam-God teachings was made by Charles W. Penrose in 1902:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never formulated or adopted any theory concerning the subject treated upon by President Young as to Adam.

[freedomforall]

Brigham never developed the teaching into something that could be reconciled with LDS scripture and presented as official doctrine.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... _Theory.3F

[LoveIsTruth]

The Prophet said:

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church, October General Conference 1976. "Our Own Liahona"
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... a?lang=eng

I HAVE NEVER TAUGHT ADAM GOD THEORY.

"Adam is the Most High" is the Adam-God theory. And it is wrong, and has been condemned as such. (See above).

I HAVE ONLY PRESENTED THE REVELATIONS TAUGHT BY JOSEPH AND BRIGHAM.
The scriptures teach that Adam is the most high.

I think in case of Joseph it is a gross misinterpretation of his words. I am not sure about Brigham, but in either case, it was never canonized, and was officially rejected. And most importantly it is self-contradictory, and contradicts the words of God and multiple scriptures, including the endowment. So, yeah, it is wrong.

Michael(Adam) is the archangel. The scriptures teach that.

Yes "under the counsel and direction of the Holy One" (D&C 78:16)

The scriptures also teach that Adam is the ancient of days, one of the titles/descriptions of God the Father.

No. Merely a prince:

"Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life." ( D&C 78:16 )

Prince serves under a King. So "prince" does not fit the Most High.

[LoveIsTruth]

Is not Adam the fallen one in this context?

I don't see where it says that.

• "fall of Adam" (Mosiah 3:19)
  
  "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." ( Mosiah 3:26 )
  
  "atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam" ( Mosiah 4:7 )
  
  "Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people." ( Alma 12:22 )
  
  "And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." ( Alma 12:23 )
  
  "all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual." ( Hel. 14:16 )
  
  "Adam fell" ( Moses 6:48 )

Do you still deny that Adam fell?

Why do you keep beating on me,

Because you keep pasting pages and pages of garbage in my thread.

It is not my doctrine
it was revealed to Joseph and Brigham, and the 12.
Go take it up with them. Go tell them they are wrong.

I already did. First of all I think it is a gross misinterpretation of what Joseph said. Secondly, even if any of these people believed this garbage it does not make it true. Why?
1) Because Joseph said their personal opinions a liable to be wrong, just as any other man's.
2) It contradicts modern canonized scripture.
3) It has been officially condemned by a Prophet of God in 1976. and
4) Most importantly: It is COMPLETELY NUTS! It is a blatant self-contradiction.

I get that you don't believe it.
It is ok with me that you don't believe it.
I'm not forcing it on you.

Is this why you pasting the same thing over and over again?

[LoveIsTruth]

What do you think it means in the endowment when Elohim says to Adam: "unto dust shall thou return" and "we will provide for you a Savior?" As well as saying to Adam: "Thou shall worship God in the name of the Son forever more."

After the garden, Adam is a stand in for us, everything said to Adam is actually being said to us. Why, because we are to become Adams, and this is the process such that we will be an Adam. We are expected to become and Adam the endowment is trying to get us to expect that of ourselves, to actually think of ourselves as an Adam in the making.

You have a real problem here: You try to dismiss the scriptures spoken to Adam, by saying it was not really spoken to Adam, but only to us.

But you cannot have it both ways. If we are to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve, then whatever is said to us, is also said to Adam. Otherwise, if Adam is exempt from what is being said, so are we, because we are to consider ourselves as though we were Adam and Eve!

So you contradict yourself again.

The truth is: Whatever is said to Adam applies to Adam, AND to us as well.

And it was said to Adam:

"I am the Only Begotten of the Father [not of Adam] from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will." ( Moses 5:9 )

So here is your problem, my friend: You demand that we accept dubious statements of Brigham Young in their plain word meaning. But you do not afford the same courtesy to the revealed words of God in the Book of Mormon, in Doctrine and Covenants, and in Perle of Great Price, and in the Endowment.

A double standard indeed. And why are you skewed so heavily against the canonized scripture in favor of condemned interpretations of personal opinions that contradict plain reading of the scripture?

That is a very odd bias indeed.

[freedomforall]

I have had LP's that repeated the same sounds over and over and over again that I merely tossed in the trash. But here we have a message as if a non-stop, battery operated, machine just keeps going and going and going. The repetitive postings of BY and JS are at a catastrophic level at this point. And they aren't even scripture!

The force by which this ridiculous doctrine is being presented is beyond redundant, sensibility and concern for the testimony of others. It appears to be a cold-hearted way to make everyone mad , frustrated and irritable , not to mention having to hear false doctrine at a high rate of speed.

I guess by feeding trolls we get what we deserve, more trolling, and more false doctrine to deal with.

[LoveIsTruth]

Well, FF, you gave him some good info. Thanks!

[freedomforall]

Do you believe it?

Mormon 9:11,12
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. SEE: Mosiah 15:1-5


The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...is...Jehovah.

It is Jehovah that created Adam. So the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot be, or is not Adam.

Exodus 6:3
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

This puts a kink in your theory. Unless you claim the bible and the Book of Mormon, both, to be false.

God The Father is not Adam. How many times must this fact be proven to you?

[HappyCamper8]

So here is your problem, my friend: You demand that we accept dubious statements of Brigham Young in their plain word meaning. But you do not afford the same courtesy to the revealed words of God in the Book of Mormon, in Doctrine and Covenants, and in Perle of Great Price, and in the Endowment.

A double standard indeed. And why are you skewed so heavily against the canonized scripture in favor of condemned interpretations of personal opinions that contradict plain reading of the scripture?

I'm having a hard time taking some of these statements seriously. It seems to be the same thing I keep saying over and over. Is this not circular reasoning? The references given every time of why Adam-God whatever anybody calls it etc... is wrong are not from canon or revelation but from a sermon. The only thing from canon are the scripture references and those are obviously up for interpretation as has been for 1000's of years.

Brigham is wrong because it wasn't revelation or canon, but only a sermon. Kimball/Penrose are right because they said it in a sermon. <------ That doesn't work!

By the way, I'm not preaching Adam is God or theory or doctrine, whatever anybody calls it. I'm just trying to point out the above statements don't work.

[LoveIsTruth]

I'm having a hard time taking some of these statements seriously. It seems to be the same thing I keep saying over and over. Is this not circular reasoning? The references given every time of why Adam-God whatever anybody calls it etc... is wrong are not from canon or revelation but from a sermon. The only thing from canon are the scripture references and those are obviously up for interpretation as has been for 1000's of years.

Brigham is wrong because it wasn't revelation or canon, but only a sermon. Kimball/Penrose are right because they said it in a sermon. <------ That doesn't work!

By the way, I'm not preaching Adam is God or theory or doctrine, whatever anybody calls it. I'm just trying to point out the above statements don't work.

You missed a few points, my friend:

a) I always said the strongest evidence to me against "Adam greater than Jesus" theory is reason, based on revealed word of God in the canon. These are the evidences I use. I used statements from Kimball only to counteract Hidingbehind's false believe that whatever prophet says must be infallible. And I showed to him it is not true because we have two prophets directly contradicting each-other.

b) Even though Kimball's condemnation of the false theory came in a sermon, still it is true, because it is in perfect harmony with canonized scripture and reason.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

[LoveIsTruth]

I wish to point out again, that it is not a coincidence, that this seemingly unrelated battle over "Adam greater than Jesus" theory took place in this thread about Adam's fall.

Why?

Because the false theory (originally offered by the devil himself) that "there was no other way" for Adam to know good and evil or to have children, but by partaking of the forbidden fruit is a natural consequence of "Adam greater than Jesus" garbage.

Again, the author of "there is no other way" theory is the devil. And many still fall for it in the church, just like in the past many fell for "Adam greater than Jesus" lunacy.

These two false theories, actually flow from each-other. And both are wrong.

One false "Adam greater than Jesus" theory has already fallen and has been officially condemned.

The other "there was no other way" lie, originated by the devil, still lingers, but this falsehood too will fall in time, because Reason and Truth are unconquerable. You might as well dethrone Jehovah, as to prevail against the Truth. It cannot be done.

Watch and see... The Truth will triumph to the absolute uttermost.

Thank you.