The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Hidingbehind, no offense but I am confused at what you are saying.

My understanding is that BY taught that Adam is Michael, the father of us all by mortal ancestry, and the head of all dispensations making him a God/Judge to us.

Not that Adam/Michael is Heavenly Father.

The key holder of the dispensation of the fullness of time ie this dispensation is Joseph Smith, he presides over the earth and the church now
standing between us and Christ.

This is what Brigham taught

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

[Seek the Truth]

Do you happen to know if Journal of Discourse is online in a decent format?

[Seek the Truth]

In tpjs pg 157 Joseph Smith indicates that Adam holds the keys of all the dispensations, and Joseph Smith is subservient to Adam.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Do you happen to know if Journal of Discourse is online in a decent format?

It is available from many places, just google it.

[inho]

Do you happen to know if Journal of Discourse is online in a decent format?

My favorite is scriptures.byu.edu, mainly because of the Topical index and Citation index.

Very readable version is jod.mrm.org, it is hosted by antimormons though.

Scanned pds are available at archive.org, more readable pdfs at http://www.jhuston.com/jod.htm.

Fair has also online version of JoD (with links to scanned pdfs).

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

In tpjs pg 157 Joseph Smith indicates that Adam holds the keys of all the dispensations, and Joseph Smith is subservient to Adam.

Since Adam is God, that is true. When a Keyholder delegates some of his keys to another, he still holds them all.
In the Garden, the first Presidency was
Elohim - Adams Father
God the Father - Adam - Christs Father
Jehovah - Christ - Savior of the world

Some time after the garden, a new First Presidency was formed.
God the Father, adam, Christs Father
Christ - the Savior
Holy Ghost - the D&C tells us his identity, if you can find it

Adam delegated the keys to Christ who delegated the keys of each dispensation to the prophet of that dispensation who delegates keys to the living prophets.

What the council at Adam-Ondi-Ohman will be all about is each dispensation head to return and report on his keys to Christ.
Then Christ will return and report on his keys to Adam.

Adam, now as Elohim, will then Give Christ the keys to be the Adam of the next generation of time and a new world which he will populate with all those he redeems as his Spirit Children just as Adam did.

[LoveIsTruth]

There was no need for Christ to redeem him Adam did not die,
He was a personage of flesh and bone, not mortal but immortal.

What you are saying contradicts the following scriptures:

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." (Moses 6:12)

What you say also makes God a liar, because he said:

"But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." (Abraham 5:13)
and again:
"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return." ( Moses 4:23-25)

So what you are saying directly contradicts these scriptures and the words of God himself. That should be enough to end this conversation, if you were guided by a speck of reason. But apparently you are not. Your only support is blind and false appeal to "authority." Here in is your FUNDAMENTAL (not to mention mental) problem!

I've proven that by scripture alone on another thread.

Armed with this, Michael the Archangel has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And he is the head angel. (arch prefix - best, top, head)
Christ on the other hand, is a just man made perfect, he has a spirit body.
Michael, with a a resurrected body of flesh and bones and the head angel is superior to Christ, a just man made perfect with a spirit body

Wow! You are really off the deep end, aren't you?
Christ is the Son of God. Adam is Michael, the archangel. Both were spirits before they came to the earth. But Christ is superior (in authority and intelligence) to Adam both before and after his birth. This is why even before Christ was born, Adam was commanded by God to repent, to believe in Christ, and to be baptized in His name. Why would the greater be baptized in the name of the lesser? It doesn't make ANY sense. It is utter lunacy!

It is Elohim that Sends Adam, Elohim is Adams Father.

Jehovah speaks to Michael and tells him that they will create a world. Michael obediently obliges.

Moreover, Elohim says to Michael, that if he should fall, Elohim will provide for him a Savior. Yet you say "there was no need for Christ to redeem him [Adam]." You contradict God and scripture almost at every turn!

The First Pres. Approved and Funded the compilation and publication of the Journal of Discourses, a primary source of the written material.

Yes, which documents the errors of the prophets, among other things. Maybe it is for the purpose of testing thick heads like yours, will you believe reason and the word of God himself, rather than mistaken personal opinions of fallible men who happened also to be prophets.

You failed so far.

As far as being canonized, Brigham has a little to say

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

The cannon of scripture is determined through "Common Consent".

Yes. It is determined by UNANIMOUS consent of the general authorities of the church. This was never reached with "Adam greater than Jesus" lunacy because it is so blatantly wrong! It is an insult to basic logic and reason itself, it contradicts the scriptures almost on every page, and it contradicts the words of God himself!

Therefore, by all metrics, it is wrong.

My God, you are thick!

[LoveIsTruth]

Therefore, Adam and Eve "could" not have children prior to the fall. They "shall" not have children prior to the fall. They "will" not have any children prior to the fall. They would have no children because they were yet innocent and were not sexually attracted to each other, and "could" not because they were not mortal...yet.

No matter how it is sliced, they were to be barren until they transgressed the law.

Read the OP. I already answered this delirium.

I conclusively proved there that resisting temptation would have opened their eyes, and would have allowed them to have children without the fall, precisely as God commanded them. Because it was the exposure to the temptation, and not the fruit that opened their eyes.

Just like Jesus eyes were opened to know good and evil by resisting temptations, instead of yielding to them.

Read the OP.

Thanks.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

There was no need for Christ to redeem him Adam did not die,
He was a personage of flesh and bone, not mortal but immortal.

What you are saying contradicts the following scriptures:

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." (Moses 6:12)

What you say also makes God a liar, because he said:

"But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." (Abraham 5:13)
and again:
"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return." ( Moses 4:23-25)

So what you are saying directly contradicts these scriptures and the words of God himself. That should be enough to end this conversation, if you were guided by a speck of reason. But apparently you are not. Your only support is blind and false appeal to "authority." Here in is your FUNDAMENTAL (not to mention mental) problem!

I've proven that by scripture alone on another thread.

Armed with this, Michael the Archangel has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And he is the head angel. (arch prefix - best, top, head)
Christ on the other hand, is a just man made perfect, he has a spirit body.
Michael, with a a resurrected body of flesh and bones and the head angel is superior to Christ, a just man made perfect with a spirit body

Wow! You are really off the deep end, aren't you?
Christ is the Son of God. Adam is Michael, the archangel. Both were spirits before they came to the earth. But Christ is superior (in authority and intelligence) to Adam both before and after his birth. This is why even before Christ was born, Adam was commanded by God to repent, to believe in Christ, and to be baptized in His name. Why would the greater be baptized in the name of the lesser? It doesn't make ANY sense. It is utter lunacy!

It is Elohim that Sends Adam, Elohim is Adams Father.

Jehovah speaks to Michael and tells him that they will create a world. Michael obediently obliges.

Moreover, Elohim says to Michael, that if he should fall, Elohim will provide for him a Savior. Yet you say "there was no need for Christ to redeem him [Adam]." You contradict God and scripture almost at every turn!

The First Pres. Approved and Funded the compilation and publication of the Journal of Discourses, a primary source of the written material.

Yes, which documents the errors of the prophets, among other things. Maybe it is for the purpose of testing thick heads like yours, will you believe reason and the word of God himself, rather than mistaken personal opinions of fallible men who happen also to be prophets.

You failed so far.

As far as being canonized, Brigham has a little to say

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

The cannon of scripture is determined through "Common Consent".

No. It is determined by UNANIMOUS consent of the general authorities of the church. This was never reached with "Adam greater than Jesus" lunacy!

My God, you are thick!

I do remember being asked for a sustaining vote the last time the D&C was extended.

You can believe what you want to believe.
I find it interesting that in your reply here, you removed
the scripture that Proves Adam was a resurrected being in the Garden.
You can bare false witness as to my mental state and you can call
me names and you can even take the name of God in vane,
I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.
But there are mountains of documents containing the writings of what
Joseph and Brigham and the 12 taught and I find it to be good so I will
believe what they taught and I will continue to resolve for myself
anywhere the teachings appear to conflict with the scriptures.
I do admit, there is that appearance, but study and understanding
has always resolved them in favor of Joseph smith and Brigham Young.

[Seek the Truth]

I would prefer less slamming and more citations, thanks

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I would prefer less slamming and more citations, thanks

I cited.
You ignored.
You slammed.
I made note of the slamming.
If you prefer less slamming then stop slamming.

When I first discovered this stuff it blew my mind,
it was so different than the milk toast we are taught
in SS, PQM and SacM. But the little tidbit I discovered
I absolutely new to be true, it was all the ramifications,
the consequences of that little bit being true that shook
me to my core. But to my surprise, instead of rejecting
it all I found my self asking how can this be true? I know
this little bit here is true but how is it possible in any way
that all this other stuff is true? I searched and searched
the scriptures to no avail.
So I went to a friend and told him what I found. He is a
superb researcher. He was flabbergasted but took on the
challenge. He found The Teachings of The Doctrine of Eternal Lives.
We both read it, studied it, devoured it. Went back to original
sources when ever possible. we both developed a testimony of it
but he did first. I believed it was true I wanted it to be in the
scriptures. So I searched the scriptures. And I found it there,
I didn't know what I was looking for the first time but this time
I did and it turned up all over the place. I am still finding it
in new places.

So, I will say to anyone who wants to know, seek and ye shall find,
knock and it shall be opened up to you. The writings of the prophets,
while they were partially taught to the church, some were just among
them selves and they are more blunt and more plain. While the scripture
are veiled in symbolism and traditions in teaching. But they do contain
the same teachings as what was written by the prophets, not as complete
and clear, but there none the less.

So, you can continue to believe what you believe or you can seek and knock.
It is up to you. But to say that someone else is off the deep end, or has mental problem
or is thick because you have not found what they have is just not you call.

There is this funny thing, apostates can leave the church but they can't leave it be.
So if you don.t believe, why not just leave it be, and the ones that do believe.

There are some who ask in sincerity in private messages and I do what I can.
But I'm not likely to caste much of my pearls here, for obvious reasons.

But it is all your choice, make it a good one, one that will not lead to regret later.

[Seek the Truth]

i didnt slam you and i didnt ignore you. i'm not an apostate i'm not criticizing the church or brethren, or even you.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

i didnt slam you and i didnt ignore you. i'm not an apostate i'm not criticizing the church or brethren, or even you.

You said i was off the deep end, had mental problems and was thick.
I didn't say you were an apostate, it was a similitude to to say if you don't like it then leave it and leave it be.
The only thing I said about you was

I cited.
You ignored.
You slammed.
I made note of the slamming.
If you prefer less slamming then stop slamming.

And

So, you can continue to believe what you believe or you can seek and knock.
It is up to you. But to say that someone else is off the deep end, or has mental problem
or is thick because you have not found what they have is just not you call.

And you can believe what you want.
but didn't accuse you of criticizing at all.

whatever

[inho]

i didnt slam you and i didnt ignore you. i'm not an apostate i'm not criticizing the church or brethren, or even you.

You said i was off the deep end, had mental problems and was thick.

One could think that you are thick, since you are blaming Seek the Truth about things that LoveIsTruth said :p

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

i didnt slam you and i didnt ignore you. i'm not an apostate i'm not criticizing the church or brethren, or even you.

You said i was off the deep end, had mental problems and was thick.

One could think that you are thick, since you are blaming Seek the Truth about things that LoveIsTruth said :p

Thank you inho,
I was really confused.
I apologize to Seek the Truth, clearly I am wrong about that.
it is entirely my fault and I am sorry.

[Seek the Truth]

No problem, happens to everybody. I would like to continue this line of inquiry, I haven't ever run into a person who actually on the merits advances this doctrine. I have been studying it since 1989 off and on and it is fraught with landmines. Would be interested in your research.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

No problem, happens to everybody. I would like to continue this line of inquiry, I haven't ever run into a person who actually on the merits advances this doctrine. I have been studying it since 1989 off and on and it is fraught with landmines. Would be interested in your research.

Thank you,
I really feel terrible about confusing you with LoveIsTruth,
and I really appreciate inho for call me out on my error.

Here is list to start with.
Some have comments, some don't.
I'll respond to any question the best I can

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Before the Atonement, only The Father was perfect.
3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your
Father who is in heaven is perfect.
After the Atonement, both The Father and The Son are perfect.
John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night
cometh, when no man can work.
Day is mortal life, night is death
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I'm showing you how to be a Father
To be a Father you must first be a Son
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in
subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all
liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and
brimstone: which is the second death.
Alma 42:9
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon
all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were
cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind
should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
Helaman 14:16-17
16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and
redeemeth all mankind from the first death--that spiritual death for all
mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the
Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things
spiritual.
17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even
all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
Mosiah 27:25-26
25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men
and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born
again yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to
a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons
and daughters
We get new bodies, both spirit bodies and physical bodies
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26 And thus they become new creatures and unless they do this, they
can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God
New bodies, innocent again
Alma 42:9
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon
all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were
cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind
should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
All suffer spiritual death
2 Nephi 2:14
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and
learning for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the
heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to
act and things to be acted upon.
2 Nephi 2:16
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for
himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be
that he was enticed by the one or the other.
God gives us our agency by allowing us to chose the good from the evil
2 Nephi 9:8-16
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh
should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who
fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil,
to rise no more.
If we didn"t die, we could not be redeemed thus leaving us subject to sin forever
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become
devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God,
and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself yea,
to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself
nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto
secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of
darkness.
without death and redemption we counl not become innocent again
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our
escape from the grasp of this awful monster yea, that monster, death
and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the
spirit.
God provided a Savior, His Son, to Atone which allows him to redeem us.
11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of
Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall
deliver up its dead which death is the grave.
we will be born physically again
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death,
shall deliver up its dead which spiritual death is hell wherefore, death
and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive
spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies
and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other and it is by the
power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
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we will be redeemed from hell and become the children of God
13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the
paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the
grave deliver up the body of the righteous, and the spirit and the body
is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and
immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like
unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.
14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and
our uncleanness, and our nakedness and the righteous shall have a
perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being
clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.
15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from
this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they
must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel and
then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to
the holy judgment of God.
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it,
and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are
righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy
still wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels and
they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them and their
torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up
forever and ever and has no end.
D&C 43:18
18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven
the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of
God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping
nations: Ye saints arise and live ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall
call again.
D&C 77:2
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the
same verse? A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator,
John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man,
and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air that
which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal and
that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual the
spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast,
and every other creature which God has created.
D&C 101:31
31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but
shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up,
and his rest shall be glorious.
D&C 129:1-3
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are
resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones--
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not
Page:13 2017-07-27 04:20:37
flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not
resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
You have to have a body to be in the presence of God, a perfect body, ether physical or
spiritual
D&C 88:27
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual
body.
even though we all suffer spiritual death, we shall be born again spiritually
D&C 88:32
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they
shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are
willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which
they might have received.
you will only be able to enjoy the glory to which you attain.
D&C 76:25
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who
was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only
Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the
Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
Satan was cast out of heaven, spiritual death, and not remorn physically
D&C 76:26-27
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him--he was
Lucifer, a son of the morning.
Son of the Morning - he came forth, redee med, in the morning of the first resurrection
(spiritual)
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the
morning!
suffered spiritual death
D&C 76:32
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it
had been better for them never to have been born
D&C 76:36-39
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and
brimstone, with the devil and his angels--
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power
because they will not be redeemed
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time
of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
all who do not rebel but eventually repent will be redeemed
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the
dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain,
who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
D&C 76:42-44
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into
his power and made by him
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands,
except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has
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revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them-they shall go away into
everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal
punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where
their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their
torment-
D&C 76:69
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the
mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect
atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
they are reborn spiritually
D&C 93:20
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness,
and be glorified in me as I am in the Father therefore, I say unto you,
you shall receive grace for grace.
D&C 93:23
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father that which is Spirit,
even the Spirit of truth
we as spirits were there
D&C 93:32
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under
condemnation.
D&C 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element,
inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy
we are a spirit and we are added apon
D&C 93:38
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning and God having
redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,
innocent before God.
The Father redeemed us in the beginning of this eternal round or generation of time
D&C 76:24
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were
created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters
unto God.
Ether 3:14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world
to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and
the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even
they who shall believe on my name and they shall become my sons and
my daughters.
The Sone, the new Father, will redeem us in the beginning of the next eternal round or
generation of time
Page:15 2017-07-27 04:20:37
Seek the Mysteries
1 Nephi 2:16
16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young,
nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to
know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord and
behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the
words which had been spoken by my father wherefore, I did not rebel
against him like unto my brothers.
Jacob 4:8
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How
unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him and it is
impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth
of his ways save it be revealed unto him wherefore, brethren, despise
not the revelations of God.
1 Nephi 10:19
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find and the mysteries of God
shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in
these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to
come wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
1 Nephi 1:1
1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught
somewhat in all the learning of my father and having seen many
afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly
favored of the Lord in all my days yea, having had a great knowledge
of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of
my proceedings in my days.
Mosiah 2:9
9 And these are the words which he spake and caused to be written,
saying: My brethren, all ye that have assembled yourselves together,
you that can hear my words which I shall speak unto you this day for I
have not commanded you to come up hither to trifle with the words
which I shall speak, but that you should hearken unto me, and open
your ears that ye may hear, and your hearts that ye may understand,
and your minds that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your
view.
Ether 4:13-14
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater
things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest
unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the
foundation of the world and it hath not come unto you, because of
unbelief.
Mormon 8:27-3
27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto
2017-07-27 04:20:37 Page:16
the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.
3 Nephi 26
3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time
that he should come in his glory--yea, even all things which should
come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt
with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll,
and the heavens and the earth should pass away
D&C 88:40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence wisdom receiveth
wisdom truth embraceth truth virtue loveth virtue light cleaveth unto
light mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own justice
continueth its course and claimeth its own judgment goeth before the
face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth
all things.
D&C 76:7-8
7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries
of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make
known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things
pertaining to my kingdom.
8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to
come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Are you aware of this?

The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives
http://ldssoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... -Lives.pdf

[Seek the Truth]

no i have never heard of it.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

no i have never heard of it.

It is the place to start.
It is all the research into the original writings
containing the doctrine all done for you.

The "author" didn't write it, he compiled it.
Don't bother with the scriptures I gave you
until read this. I would call it the definitive
work on this Doctrine.

It is not an easy read, but it is well worth the time.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

There is also "THE ATONEMENT TALK by Cleon Skousen also called "The Real Atonement

It is not about Eternal Lives, but it adds some foundation:

THE ATONEMENT Talk By Cleon Skousen
President Kimball introduced one subject in General Priesthood Meeting
that isn't generally discussed that I want to comment on because it's
the whole foundation of Easter that's never discussed. We just don't
talk about it, and we're the only people that know about it. And we've
almost lost it as a doctrine of the Church. So I was quite thrilled
when President Kimball introduced it. He said:
"I want everybody to understand that in this life we only have a very
limited amount of priesthood authority to function with. There are many
ordinances that as yet must be given to us in the next world. One of
them is the ordinance of resurrection. We're not allowed to perform
that ordinance here. It's an ordinance of the priesthood, we'll get it
over there.
Over in the next life we'll also have the ordinance of begetting spirit
children with spirit bodies and that's something that we have no power
or capacity to do here. Physical bodies, yes, but not spirit."
Then he got onto a theme that I'm sure may have sounded a little strange
to some ears. He said:
"You'll be able to have access to the intelligences in the universe and
organize them and make planets and organize kingdoms."
Now this is a beautiful doctrine that it's time we discussed a little
bit more because if we understand that principle, it will help us to
comprehend why there had to be an atonement. I don't know whether this
bothers you or not, but as I was a little boy sitting in Sunday School
and they talked about the terrible suffering of Jesus on the cross, I
would say to my Sunday School teacher, "Who wanted that? What was all
the suffering for? Everybody talks about all the suffering. What was
it for? Who was it to satisfy?" And my teacher said, "Well, it was to
satisfy Heavenly Father." And that didn't answer my childish questions
either. Seems like if Heavenly Father wanted us to come down on this
earth, after we'd repented, He'd just say, "Come back on up, you did the
best you could." What did we need all this suffering up there for?
When I (Cleon Skousen) went on my mission I asked James Widtsoe, my
mission president, all my childhood questions concerning all the
suffering of Jesus. Why all the pain? President Widtsoe said, "This is
the most profound question of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it
shouldn't be answered unless people are first capable of at least
wondering about it so they can hear the answer. The answer to this
question is what President Kimball was talking about in priesthood
meeting. He didn't associate it with the subject of the Atonement, but
it's the foundation of it."
The following are passages in the scriptures--the answers to the
questions of the pain of the atonement. If you look each one up you
will appreciate them much more than if you just say, "Now I know where."
Actually read each passage and you'll begin to see what a marvelous
ocean, an avalanche, a veritable waterfall of truth has poured out upon
the saints in the latter days, and some of it we've allowed to run off
without appreciating what it really represented. Now, first of all, is
II Nephi 2:14. This is what you'll read:
And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and
learning; for there is a God, and He hath created all things, both the
heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to
act and things to be acted upon.
Father Lehi says that everything in the universe is made of two things.
This is where we get our "building blocks" concept--something to act and
something to be acted upon. Now the next reference is D&C 93:29.
The thing which acts is called "eternal intelligences". In the plural--
eternal intelligences! The next one is D&C 93:30.
These intelligences are independent and act voluntarily. They are not
compelled. The heavens wait on them until they obey. They don't do
anything until they are ready, just like us! And our Heavenly Father
built the whole universe with this element of action, this energy factor
in the universe is intelligence and it only operates as fast and in a
direction that it is willing to follow. Now Abraham 3:19.
These intelligences are graded from the lowest to the highest and the
highest is God's intelligence Himself. And we're in between. Some of
the intelligences are assigned to the elements, and some were assigned
to plant life and some were assigned to animals and those that were his
very special, superior, super deluxe intelligences were given bodies in
his image. And you are they. You are very, very, very special people.
Now Joseph Smith describes this in Documentary History of the Church
Vol. 4, p. 519. He says:
"And I explained to the Quorum of the Twelve and their wives the
doctrine of the eternal progression of intelligences."
Then he doesn't tell us what the explanation was. So you have to go to
Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt and Heber C. Kimball and they tell what
was explained to them but they got the doctrine from him. Our next one
is D&C 93:33.
That which is acted upon is called "eternal element" (two blocks--act,
acted upon)--element, matter. Joseph Smith said that matter exists on
two dimensions-- the very refined element is called spirit. And the
more coarse element is called this temporal matter we've got here,
physical (D&C 131:7-8). It's all matter but it exists on two planes.
Like ice and water. They're the same thing but they're on different
dimensions. Everything is made up of a combination of intelligence and
matter. They are the building blocks of the universe. (Abraham
4:10,12,18; Helaman 12:8-9)
Now if you're interested in science, this will be very exciting
information. Our most advanced research scientists in the pure research
area have just proven this to be true. Matter does not function
mechanically. It has an element of finite intelligence in it, they say.
That's what Bergsen called it--the French philosopher. It can
distinguish, it can choose, it doesn't always do what the rules say.
Some of these little elements are just as ornery as you and me. They go
wandering around--and in the aggregate we say that that's the law of
chemistry. In the aggregate, yes, but you look at them individually and
they're fooling around. As a matter of fact, Robert Milligan said that
if all the elements were obeying all of the rules of chemistry, you
would never die. Through rebellion in the flesh. And they're called
seeds of death--you may have heard of that before. Now at God's
command, element which has received intelligence attached to it, at
God's command it will obey. You want a mountain to move? Talk to it.
"MOVE!" "YES, SIR." And they move when God commands it, or his
priesthood does it by his authorization. When God commands, these
intelligences obey, in the elements. That's Jacob 4:6; I Nephi 20:13.
Now listen to Brigham Young discussing this principle. There is life or
intelligence in all matter through the vast extent of all the
eternities. It is in the rock, in the sand, in water, air, the gases,
and in short, in every description and organization of matter whether it
be solid, liquid, or gaseous. Particle operating with particle. Now,
all of a sudden, we begin to catch the vision of the miracle of God's
creation. He goes up into the outer darkness of unorganized
intelligences and unorganized bits of element and combines them together
so that a little tiny bit of element has an intelligence attached to it
and now you can command it. They're combined in certain ways. The Lord
has given to all of them a pattern, which becomes the law by which they
operate. Some will accept electricity and some will resist it. Some
will combine with various things and you get a combination--2 parts
Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen--and we call it water. That's because they
were organized in that way. They're so marvelously organized that you
can take one single little complex organization--it's called a cell--and
it's fertilized by another cell. And within 9 months because of the DNA
organization that is set up there by highly intelligent Heavenly Father,
that will grow into trillions of cells, called a human being. All by
design. You can almost stand in a worshipful feeling toward our
Heavenly Father as you realize what is possible in that organizational
structure. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.368-369)
Now let me show you a miracle. See that hand? That is made of dirt!
You want to see a miracle in engineering and Godly power, it's in that
hand. That is made of dirt! And our Heavenly Father can speak to all
those little intelligences and He could turn them back into dirt that
fast. Or He can say to them--as to the hand of Moses--"My children,
halfway, not all the way, just halfway." Like leprosy, maybe? "Moses,
put your hand into your bosom." So he puts it in and the Lord says,
"Now, my children, Moses, take your hand out." Leprosy! Dripping,
incurable, on the way back to dirt. "Moses, put your hand back into
your bosom." Then the Lord says, "Now my children, as you
were--everybody back in your places. Take your hand out, Moses." Ah!
Beautiful, clean, strong, pink flesh. That's the miracle of God.
Children are a miracle. Everything around us is a miracle, and for the
first time we're beginning to understand. God speaks and they obey.
Things are made of that which acts and that which is acted upon, and
they've been identified for us by name and President Kimball said that
in the next world--that's where we have access to these intelligences to
organize our own great systems. Now, our Heavenly Father says, "Do you
know what makes me God?" You might want to put this down. The source
of God's power is D&C 29:36, Moses 4:1,4.
Here he talks about the source of his power--what makes him God. What
do you think it turns out to be? What makes a being suddenly or over
the process of time a God? MY HONOR is my power. My honor is my power.
So that when I speak and say, "water, reorganize into wine--a very high
grade of wine, please," there's no problem. They reorganize. We called
it a miracle. It was nothing in the world but obedient intelligences.
That's the doctrine.
Now keeping that in mind, that's D&C 29:36, what would happen if the
Father violated the confidence of those intelligences? What do you
think would happen? No church on the face of the earth has dared to
announce the doctrine contained in the Book of Alma, Chapter 42. No
church has dared to suggest that God could fall. And our Heavenly
Father says, "I want you to know that I walk the razor's edge of
Celestial Law continually in order to maintain the confidence and the
honor of all these who trust me because that's the source of my power."
This gives us a whole new understanding of our Heavenly Father. In Alma
42:13,22,25 he repeats it over and over again. And in Mormon 9:19 it is
repeated. If He were unjust, if He were arbitrary, if He were false in
any sense, He would what? CEASE TO BE GOD. Who dares to suggest that
anything could happen to challenge the power of the almighty Elohim,
chief of the Gods? Our Heavenly Father says, "I want you to understand
me. I work within very strict rules. I have to function so that I
enjoy their confidence and do not violate it." Now Alma 34:9.
The Father says, "Once I had put you down into the second estate, I lost
complete control over the possibility of bringing you back Myself." God
the Father cannot save us. These are doctrines of the church that we
seldom put in these dimensions. But this is the Easter story. This is
really the Easter story. In fact, it says there that if there had not
been some way to get us back to the presence of the Father, and it had
been left to the Father and He had been helpless to get us back, we
would have ended back in outer darkness with Satan and his hosts. We'd
have gone the same route they went. And everything that had been
organized by the Father in connection with us, our earth and the other
earths on which part of this family is located and all of the creations
connected with it, would have disintegrated and gone back to outer
darkness, disorganized, That's the scripture.
Now this takes all the magic out of creation. All of a sudden, we can
understand it, in our finite way. All of a sudden, our Heavenly Father
becomes much more rational, comprehensive, and our appreciation begins
to accelerate as we begin to realize what a remarkable, beautiful,
powerful personality He is. II Nephi 9:9 is where it says we would end
up with Satan and his angels were there no atonement. That it is
absolutely beyond the capacity of our Heavenly Father to lift children
who have stumbled while learning the difference between good and evil
back into His presence. Because He has to operate according to law and
all the other intelligences would say, "Father, now they have sinned and
come short of Thy glory. They cannot come back. Remember all the laws
that held us back? We didn't get to be those top people, we were graded
down. Remember? Remember laws? You kept talking about laws . . ."
These are they who demand justice and will not let us return. And
should God try it, as it says in Alma, they would cease to honor Him.
And He would cease to be God. That's the doctrine.
Then how do we do it? How do we do it? Alma 34:11. No person can
suffer for the sins of another person, that's the law. The law says no
person can suffer for the sins of another person. That's what these
little intelligences are saying--"that's the law." Now, you just stop
and think why that is so. If I commit a very serious offense could my
brother die for it and satisfy you people? Even though we love each
other and my brother says, "No, don't let him be killed, I'll die for
him." Do you think everyone would be happy about that? No, it would
violate your sense of justice. And it does all these little
intelligences. And Alma 34:11 says, "No person can die or be punished
for the sins of another person and have it acceptable as justice." See,
there's demands of justice. That's what these little intelligences are
doing. "There's an offense there, they cannot come back, Father."
Everybody see the problem?
Now, the genius of the solution. The Gods know that these little
intelligences have a capacity for compassion. Compassion--just like you
and me. Intelligences have a capacity for compassion. Therefore, the
atonement is based not on law, but mercy. That's Alma 34:15. In other
words, we're going to try and get to these little intelligences in some
way so that we can overcome the demands of justice. With what?
Sympathy, mercy--so that we'll actually overcome the demands of justice.
That's Alma 34:15.
Now, once the families of Gods--and they must have worked this out eons
and eons ago with other families, so this is a pattern. Remember when
they were selecting the Savior? Jesus volunteered, but Satan said, "You
know, Father, this is very old fashioned, this just isn't necessary. We
can satisfy the intelligences of the universe. Just put our children in
straight jackets and get them through the second estate . . . it's a
great idea, I thought of it. I really would like to get credit for it
because I'm offering the whole family, the whole human family,
insurance. All I'm asking you to do is to give up the hang-up that the
family has always had on this free agency thing. It's only for this
little bit of time. We'll put them in a straight jacket, get them
through the second estate-- no body can object to them then. We've
taken them down, they've got bodies, we've prevented them from violating
any laws . . . bring them back . . . it's that simple."
"No!" the father said, "it isn't that simple." Apparently implying that
if you introduce compulsion into our eternal plan of salvation, or into
the cosmic universe, you put coercion there. Anyway, your sowing the
seeds of what? . . . Revolution, disintegration. Everything we have
out there is moving as it is willing to move. You don't get revolution
that way.
Then Satan says, "I'll start a revolution." And he does. I wouldn't be
a bit surprised if the real followers of the Father there, for a while,
were a minority. And we had a big uncommitted, in the middle, majority.
Jesus said, "Father, I'll do it your way--I'll do it the way they've
always had to do it. We do have casualties, true--but, at least we
maintain a voluntary participation that you've always done in the past.
And I know someone has to suffer in order to have that atonement, and
create that sense of compassion, but I'll do it." And so we had a big
argument, and the revelation says that the war in heaven was a testimony
meeting.
As we said one to another, "The Father's way is the right way. Now you
don't want to introduce compulsion. If you start compulsion, who says
where it could end? Lucifer's trying to steal the throne of our
Heavenly Father and he wants the glory for it and there's nothing in
that direction but rebellion and destruction." We finally got 2/3's on
our side. I won't be surprised when we see this in the vision if we
only had a minority to begin with. But we finally got 2/3's. And the
other 1/3 went for no-risk insurance. They wouldn't take a chance with
us.
All right, now, how does this atonement work? Watch how the principle
functions. Now you're an intelligence. You are capable of being
subjected to so much sympathy and compassion, you've stopped asking for
every pound of flesh that the law permits. Ever notice that in
yourself? It works--first the principle. They must have a person who
is infinite as it says in Alma 34--one who is infinitely loved.
Infinite means completely--everybody recognizes this. So we take a
spirit who is so superior He's first counselor in the first presidency
of heaven. He's so honored that when the Father wants something done He
speaks to this person and he tells all the intelligences what to do.
And He's identified as the Word. He's the one through whom the word
passes. He's loved and respected by all, just like the Father. So we
use him. He is infinitely loved. And we have Him come down into the
second estate and live a perfect life without offense so that He can
return to the Father and incidental thereto while laboring among the
human family, we have Him suffer so terribly that the little
intelligences of the entire universe are revolted. It's abhorrent--the
suffering that He went through. They loved Him. As it says in the Book
of Mormon, even the elements of the earth couldn't stand it, and churned
back and forth until the whole face of the land northward was different
than before. The very elements were crying out against this terrible
torture of someone that they loved. And all this was by design. That's
the mission of Jesus Christ. You must suffer so much that those little
intelligences, when you come and plead on behalf of someone who did the
best that he could, which is called repentance--they'll say, "Well, they
really shouldn't go back, but if you want them, after all you went
through for them . . . yes, they can go up." That's the atonement.
And so listen to Alma 34 as we hear the prophets who use to understand
and preach this doctrine extensively, which we've kind of stopped
preaching among ourselves. Listen to this statement here. Alma 34:15.
"And thus He shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on His
name. This being the intent of this last sacrifice--to bring about the
bowels of mercy." Whose mercy? The bowels of mercy . . . whose mercy?
Our Heavenly Father already has mercy toward us. This is His plan. We
don't have to create that in Him. We have to create it in those that
are demanding justice. "Father, they've sinned--come short of the glory
of God." There's where you must arouse the bowels of mercy, which
overpower justice, being the demands of justice. "And brings about the
means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance. And thus mercy
can satisfy the demands of justice. And encircles them in the arms of
safety. While he that exerciseth not faith unto repentance is exposed
to the whole law of the demands of justice. Therefore, only unto them
that hath faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal
plan of redemption."
Now let's turn to D&C 45 and listen to the Savior telling about it.
Verse 3--listen to Him who is the advocate with your Father--who is
pleading your cause before him saying, "Father, behold the suffering and
death of Him who did no sin. In whom thou wast well pleased. Behold
the blood of thy Son, which was shed. The blood of Him who thou prayest
that Thyself may be glorified, Wherefore, Father, spare these my
brethren"--see how He does that? "Spare these my brethren that believe
on my name." He doesn't plead for those who don't believe, He
can't--He's not allowed to--it would rob justice. "Spare these that
believe on my name, that they may come to me and have everlasting life."
And the Father can do it without ceasing to be God.Because of what?
Mercy! Let me give you an example of how that works. During the Civil
War there was a 19 year old soldier who went to sleep on guard duty. A
whole section of the Union army was wiped out in that particular sector.
He lost many of his very best friends all because he went to sleep and
they were able to make a surprise attack on one flank of that particular
defense effort. He survived the battle. He was court-martialed and
sentenced to be hanged for neglect of duty for going to sleep while
servicing as a guard, which was routine military law. The death
sentence and order of execution was placed on the desk of President
Lincoln and he was prepared to sign it. We lost a lot of valuable men
because a 19 year old soldier went to sleep. President Lincoln was
communicated with by a little old woman. This mother said to President
Lincoln, "When this war started, I had a husband and 6 sons. First I
lost my husband, then I lost my sons--5 of them. I just have one son
left. And he's about to be executed for neglect of duty. He feels
terrible about what he did. He knows he deserves to die. President
Lincoln, I wonder if, maybe, because you have the pardoning power under
the constitution, you could find it in your heart to let me have the
last of my family--for my sake?" President Lincoln said to the mother,
"For your sake, I pardon your son. I pray God he'll survive the war and
be a blessing to you all the days of your life." See how compassion
works? We completely overcame the demands of justice. And nobody
criticized President Lincoln for using his pardoning power in that case
once they found out what the plea of that little mother had been. And
that's the way all of us are.
I just pause at this moment to ask the question, "What do you think an
intelligence is?" What is an intelligence? Well, we don't know. It's
a wonderful, self-knowing, eternal little entity that says, "I am." You
see me up her, but what you're really seeing isn't me--this is mine.
And the little "I am" that always existed--I can locate him pretty well.
I touch my chin, and that's outside and below me. Shut your eyes and
touch your right ear-- is that you? Or is that to the right of you?
Notice that? Put your hand on the top of your head. Is that you or is
that above you? Isn't that interesting? Put your fingers out here--is
that you or is that way, way, way out from you? You see, "I am" is
right in there--that's the seat of power. Want to know what an
intelligence is? That's it, that's you! And you're one of the very
advanced intelligences. You're so advanced that one of our brothers on
this level thought that he was as smart as the Father, and tried to take
over the Father's kingdom. Those other little intelligences wouldn't
have thought of that. But the Father's elevated far beyond us. I tell
you, this is an exciting place to be, and it took eons to bring us here
and everyone is so precious. Our Heavenly Father says, "If you see one
of them trying, then backsliding, then he tries, keeps backsliding, you
work with him if you have to forgive him 70 x 7 -- as long as he's
trying--keep in there, push him--we might make it eventually--maybe
we've got an Alma in the making. Who knows?"
Toward the evening they went to the last supper. They partook of the
passover lamb. And he looked out over his 12 apostles and He said, "One
of you will betray me." Peter says to John, "You're closest. You ask
Him, who?" And John the Beloved said, "Master, who?" The Savior
whispered, "He to whom I give the sop." And He picked up a piece of
bread, dipped it in the gravy, handed it to Judas Iscariot and said,
"Judas, whatsoever thou doest, do thou quickly." Judas got up and went
out. I wonder if he suspected that maybe Jesus suspected. We don't
know. We don't think so. He'd already received the 30 pieces of
silver--he'd already approved to betray the Christ. He went out. He
went to see the elders of the city. Now it says that Jesus became very
depressed. And then rose up and he gave that beautiful high priest
prayer found in John, Chapter 17, where he pleads with the Father to,
"Bless these, that they may be one as thou, Father, art in me and I in
Thee-- That they also may be one in us." And He says, "Bless those who
shall believe on their words, who have not seen--that they also may be
one, that we all may be one. I pray not for the world, but for those
that thou hast given me out of the world. That they may be one." And
in the greatest of anguish and suffering He pleaded with that prayer.
Now, He said, "Let us be gone. I need to pray." And so they went from
the part of the city where the poor people lived--we think that's where
it really was--across the temple square, out through the golden gate on
the eastern side, down through the brook Cidron, and up unto the top of
the Mount of Olives. It was dark now, and as He came in, He told eight
of his disciples to stay by the gate. He took Peter, James and John and
went into the grove. Then He had them watch, and He went further up the
hillside into the grove, and apparently only John stayed awake. And
John heard Him fall full-length on the ground and said, "O Father, all
things are possible unto thee. Take this cup from me. Nevertheless,
not my will, but Thy will be done." What He's saying is, "Father, You
are God. You're all powerful--all things are possible unto Thee--don't
make me go through this. We can work it out some other way." And that
angel that came to minister unto Jesus, undoubtedly, explained to Him
something He'd forgotten--He's forgotten His preexistence. He was born
to suffer and die. What the angel must have said, and undoubtedly did,
though we don't have the message--but I won't be surprised if it was
something like this, "O Jehovah, Thou Son of God--You do not have to do
this, unless you wish. But you should know that unless you fulfill this
assignment, the Father will lose not only this family, this whole
family, but the entire creation associated with them. The planets, the
plants, the animals, everything that you used your hands to create, will
be lost to the Father and go back to the chaos of outer darkness from
which it came."
Because when the angel had finished ministering to Him, He said, "Then
Thy will be done." And He sweat drops of blood. The channels of His
lifestream couldn't even contain the fluid of life and it spilled out
into the sweat glands and poured out on His skin as it were great drops
of blood. The agony of that moment. Now you and I couldn't have
endured that--we don't have any idea how terrible that was. But Jesus
has given us some idea of what it was like in the 19th Section of The
Doctrine and Covenants, in which He says, verse 15, "Therefore, I
command you to repent. Repent lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth
and by my wrath and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore. How sore
you know not--how exquisite you know not. How hard to bear you know
not. For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they
might not suffer if they would repent. But if they would not repent,
they must suffer even as I, which suffering caused myself, even God, the
greatest of all, to tremble with pain and to bleed at every pore, and
suffer both body and spirit and would that I might not drink the bitter
cup and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and
finished my preparation unto the children of men." "Now will you accept
it? Will you let me blot them out? I can, if you'll be obedient
through repentance, the spirit will justify you, and I will sanctify
you. I've done it for you. Come unto me." After that, Judas came with
the soldiers, and Jesus heard them coming--He came back and here were
His apostles sound asleep. We don't know what else happened-- John
didn't stay awake. He was tired. Judas came up to Him. It was night--
they had torches--they'd seen Jesus in the temple square but it was
night time and they wanted to be sure and get the right one because the
others will all flee as soon as they grab somebody. And so Judas came
up to Him, Took Jesus in his arms and said, "Hail, Master." And the
Savior looked down at him and said, "Judas, betrayest thou the Son of
Man with a kiss?" The soldiers screamed, "Seize him! Seize him!" And
everybody fled. Then the Savior was taken up to the house of Ananias
and we all remember the terrible night that He spent. We remember the
three denials by Peter--he was petrified--Peter will never forgive
himself for these three denials. The next morning there was an illegal
trial before the Sanhedrin. They can't kill Jesus without the consent
of Pilate, so they take Him into the Antonian, named after Mark Antony
and this was a big fortress that's part of the temple square, and right
in the open square they brought in Jesus and turned Him over to Pilate.
Pilate tried to create sympathy in their hearts by flogging Him and
putting a crown of thorns on His head and blood running down His face,
His robe is just saturated with blood and they bring Him out and say in
Latin, "Behold! Behold the man!" And they scream, "Crucify Him!
Crucify Him! That's not enough." "Bring me water--see ye to it--I wash
my hands of this judgment."
"Crucify Him!" And so they took Him with the cross--carried it as long
as His broken body could endure the pain and finally they took Him up to
the place of the skull and there they nailed Him to the cross and swung
it into position. Two thieves were crucified on either side. The earth
trembled and the sky grew black at noon and remained black with the
ground trembling occasionally clear up until 3 o'clock.
Over in America, the whole continent was in turmoil as were the islands
of the sea. Towards the end, He cried out, "I thirst." On a sponge
they put vinegar up because that was supposed to alleviate the pain a
little bit. He looked down in His agony and He said, "John, behold thy
mother; mother, behold thy son." Apparently Joseph had passed away.
He's just saying, "John, take care of my mother, Mary." And then, after
they'd tormented Him and pestered Him, "Why don't you come down? Why
don't you heal yourself?" All of this is in the 110th Psalm--all of it
was seen by David. He knew the very words Jesus would say. And then
almost when the agony was beyond bearing, and it was getting toward dusk
when they would have to start breaking their legs so they would die
fast, suddenly Jesus looked up and said, "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The Spirit of the Father
had withdrawn from this man-- left Him absolutely alone, hanging on that
cross. But just for a moment--and then the Spirit of God surged back
into Him, to say, in effect, "My Son, I'm here--we did it!" He lifted
up His face and He said, "It is finished. Father, into Thy hands I
commend my spirit." And he departed.
At that moment Jesus became the Christ. He had done what was necessary
to overcome the demands of justice so we could go back. He did it. And
by the power of that great force that was in Him, He now had three days
and nights and would have that body lifted, resurrected, purified, and
glorified, and it's such a thrilling thing to contemplate Mary Magdalene
coming and leaning against the wall of the tomb--she knows that someone
stole the body. She thinks maybe it's the gardener and she sees that
person standing through her tears, standing there. She said, "Master,
if thou hast born Him hence, tell me where thou hast laid Him and I will
bear Him away." And the person said, "Mary." She looked up and said,
"Master!" He said, "Touch me not. I am not yet ascended to my Father
who is in heaven. But go and tell the brethren I ascend unto my God and
their God." And he was gone. That's the Easter story.
And our Heavenly Father suffered so much that night in Gethsemane when
that Son of His lay among the leaves underneath the olive trees and
said, "O Father, if it be possible, take this cup from me." Our
Heavenly Father was suffering so much that moment that He wanted at
least one of His children of the earth to know what that was like that
night for Him. And so He said to our great ancestor, Abraham, "I want
you to take your best, beloved son up onto the top of Mount Moriah and I
want you to offer him unto me as a sacrifice." "My son! To whom you
promised his seed might be like unto the sands of the seashore. Mine
only son and heir. I kill him? And burn him?" And without telling
Sarah, he took this young man, probably in his early teens, up to the
top of Mount Moriah. And Josephus, who had access to all the books of
the temple, says that he said to his son, "My child, I wouldn't have had
you without a special blessing from God to your mother. And He, having
sent you to me, now asks that I send you back--not by disease, or war,
or old age, but as a sacrament unto Him at the hands of your own Father.
I now send you to Him." And he raised the knife. Oh, the anguish of
that father! And in Jacob 4:5 of The Book of Mormon it says that that
was done to symbolize the feelings of the Father and the Son. That was
specifically done so that at least one human father would know what the
pain and anguish was like that night in Gethsemane as Jesus said, "O
Father, all things are possible unto Thee--take this cup from me."
You know as you begin to understand this beautiful doctrine--the
intelligences in the universe, the fact that their honor of God is what
makes Him God--the fact that if He lost their confidence, He'd cease to
be God--these are basic doctrines of the restored gospel as it says in
Jacob 2. Why don't we talk about the atonement more? We don't talk
about the real basis of the atonement--we talk about it as a proven
fact, without ever reaching out and saying, "Heavenly Father, I think I
understand just a little. I think I understand." I don't know what it
does for you but it has made me to love my Heavenly Father like I've
never loved Him before. And I've learned to love the Savior Jesus
Christ like I've never loved Him before. Now that I know what those two
wonderful people did for me and you and our children and all the people
of this world, the planet on which we live--and all the beautiful things
that He's blessed us with. It would have all been destroyed and lost if
those two people hadn't done what they did. I love them for that.
I bear witness that Jesus is the Christ. We have a Father in Heaven who
loves us. The atonement is real. The atonement is effective. The
atonement works. There is a resurrection. There is forgiveness of
sins. Though our sins be as scarlet, if we will truly repent, we can be
restored and taken back to our Heavenly Father cleansed like white snow.
(Isaiah 1:18) I pray our Heavenly Father that He'll help us so we won't
let Him down, so we won't betray the Christ, so we'll be good
missionaries and spread this great message to our neighbors. I pray
that we may be worthy of the atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ which
has been restored for us, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
(Read D&C 128:23)

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

This is not doctrine but it has some great insights

The authors niece lives in my ward, her and her husband are top notch
and she says the same of him

The Kolob Theorem
http://www.rogerknecht.com/wp-content/u ... heorem.pdf

I know the antis are going to have a fit over this
but I consider it to be "out of the best books"

[LoveIsTruth]

Hidingbehind, no offense but I am confused at what you are saying.

My understanding is that BY taught that Adam is Michael, the father of us all by mortal ancestry, and the head of all dispensations making him a God/Judge to us.

Not that Adam/Michael is Heavenly Father.

Precisely correct! Thank you. Well said!

[LoveIsTruth]

Adam, now as Elohim, will then Give Christ the keys to be the Adam of the next generation of time

So you keep asserting that Adam is greater than Christ.

Consider this:

You are cursed in the name of Adam, and your are blessed in the name of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; ..." (Moses 4:23)

"the curse of Adam is taken from them in me [Christ]" (Moroni 8:8)

The lights are on, but nobody seems to be home...

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Brigham says that Adam & Eve are our spirit parents.

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

Brigham says Adam is our Father and God

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

Brigham says the Jesus says he is the Son of Adam

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

Brigham says Adam is Michael is Jesus's Father and our God and Joseph said it to,

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

I've just repeated what Brigham has said.