Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

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Lizzy60
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Lizzy60 »

butterfly wrote:
lgr3065 wrote:Bishops are under no obligation for confidentiality-state and federal laws override in many cases. If members had any idea to the extent their confidences have been and are being betrayed, they would be appalled! Have personal knowledge of the lack of confidentiality. Church teaches guilt (such as the temple recommend questions). Christ teaches forgiveness. Be very careful what you discuss. Obrien is correct, there is nothing in scripture that says you must go to a man with more power or Priesthood than you to be forgiven.
So you're saying that a bishop is not legally required to maintain confidentiality in the same way that a therapist or mental health care professional is supposed to?
In what way exactly would state or federal laws override confidentiality? (I expect they would in the case of child abuse or someone planning to harm themselves).
A bishop is not required to maintain confidentiality. A friend of mine counseled with our bishop about ways she could improve her marriage. She very specifically asked him NOT to say anything to her husband. However, the bishop felt he could give the husband some good advice on treating his wife better. That did not end well. Husband berated wife for saying anything about their marriage to the bishop. She told me that she got yelled at for several days. I can sort of see his point -- once you tell your bishop or RS president, or home or visiting teacher anything, you may become a topic of ward council meetings. You know, they can't help you if they don't know all the dirt on you.

Knowing what I know after serving as RS president, I will never tell any ward member, including the bishop, anything I don't want announced over the pulpit.

freedomforall
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by freedomforall »

butterfly wrote:
lgr3065 wrote:Bishops are under no obligation for confidentiality-state and federal laws override in many cases. If members had any idea to the extent their confidences have been and are being betrayed, they would be appalled! Have personal knowledge of the lack of confidentiality. Church teaches guilt (such as the temple recommend questions). Christ teaches forgiveness. Be very careful what you discuss. Obrien is correct, there is nothing in scripture that says you must go to a man with more power or Priesthood than you to be forgiven.
So you're saying that a bishop is not legally required to maintain confidentiality in the same way that a therapist or mental health care professional is supposed to?
In what way exactly would state or federal laws override confidentiality? (I expect they would in the case of child abuse or someone planning to harm themselves).
IMHO, if a person truly repents before a bishop and God, that bishop is under no obligation to run to authorities of law, depending on the attitude of the person repenting. During the repenting process, the Lord, in his own way will pass consequences that cannot be mistaken for chastening methods. I had to bear the buffetings of Satan for several weeks, a very scary thing to pass through, before my sins were remitted. True repentance of serious sin(s) is not a picnic.
The bishop is under an obligation to keep his mouth shut so other members of the ward aren't passing gossip around. I've heard crappy stories of bishops that just have to blab what they know to others. I hold no respect for them whatsoever. The bishop I had was very strict but kept his mouth shut. I could respect strictness but not a blabber mouth. Later, my bishop was called upon to ordain me to office of High Priest. At the time, he had to drive at least forty miles from LA to Riverside CA in thick traffic to meet my request. That's how much I loved him. And that's what he did for me knowing my past sins...and still loving me.
In cases of murder, kidnapping, human trafficking and the like, these are a different matter where the law may supersede confession. I'm sure the Lord knows how to handle these types of cases where confession and repentance comes into play.

lgr3065
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by lgr3065 »

This is a tad off topic.However, confession is a complicated issue in today's culture. Medical etc are required depending on state law. Clergy traditionally have been exempt. However, that has changed in recent times. if someone comes in to confess abuses, for example, the bishop is required to call the Church hotline of lawyers, some states require reporting to authorities, others do not (this includes UT, AZ, ID and I think NM), they are consulted on how to proceed-often are required to inform the individual that this information will be reported. Sexual, often Bishop is required to interview the other party to get their side of the story. Sometimes, it is left to the of the local leader as to how to proceed. The Secret Handbook gives some guidelines. The purpose is to protect the corporation at all cost, sometimes at the expense of the victim. Problems arise if the victim also comes in and states the alleged abuse, a lot of folks get involved and often the rights of the victim or overridden to the perps rights-it can be a legal mess and the church wont pay for it (they will sometimes pay for counseling). I don't have sources handy but info can be queried in google and researched,if you so desire. So, bottom line, be very careful what you report to the lds leadership. Sometimes it is better served to go directly to the police. Our laws complicate the repentance process. Bottom line, there are legal issues and there are spiritual issues that have to be addressed. In the case of this young man -- what is the position of the girl? Was whatever happening consensual? She now comes under scrutiny like wise.

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gkearney
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by gkearney »

I would like to point out here that we have no way of knowing:

1. If this young man has really done anything that would even require him to speak to the Bishop. I really doubt his mother would be in a position to know with certainty what is or is not going on between her son and this young woman.

And

2. We don't know even if there was an issue if it has already been address in private between this young man and his Bishop. Again his mother likely would not know the particulars of such a meeting.

Everyone here seems to be assuming the worst in this case which I find troubling. This is a private matter between the boy, the girl and the Lord and perhaps the Bishop an not for public speculation on the Internet.

freedomforall
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by freedomforall »

Obrien wrote:
freedomforall wrote: ... Again, you posted some real good passages, Obrien.
Thanks - those are some of my personal favorites. Yes, many, many more could be cited backing up the assertion, for a faithful person, that Christ is the Judge and that He saves. I just don't see where we are to be in authority and judge one another for and in behalf of an institution - I don't buy that concept. Yes, we are to judge righteous judgement, but I believe that refers to discerning good from evil and avoiding the evil. Let God judge and absolve sin as He sees fit.

So, going back to the OP, the soon-to-be missionary should go Christ for forgiveness, as well as mama. :)
I simply assert that this scripture:

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

A good bishop is a servant just as is a prophet. Therefore we need to go to a bishop for serious sin as the scriptures indicate.

Only the Lord can remove anguish of heart and soul. But the bishop is a go between in that effort. I know, been there, done that. I know.

butterfly
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by butterfly »

Lizzy60 wrote:
butterfly wrote:
lgr3065 wrote:Bishops are under no obligation for confidentiality-state and federal laws override in many cases. If members had any idea to the extent their confidences have been and are being betrayed, they would be appalled! Have personal knowledge of the lack of confidentiality. Church teaches guilt (such as the temple recommend questions). Christ teaches forgiveness. Be very careful what you discuss. Obrien is correct, there is nothing in scripture that says you must go to a man with more power or Priesthood than you to be forgiven.
So you're saying that a bishop is not legally required to maintain confidentiality in the same way that a therapist or mental health care professional is supposed to?
In what way exactly would state or federal laws override confidentiality? (I expect they would in the case of child abuse or someone planning to harm themselves).
A bishop is not required to maintain confidentiality. A friend of mine counseled with our bishop about ways she could improve her marriage. She very specifically asked him NOT to say anything to her husband. However, the bishop felt he could give the husband some good advice on treating his wife better. That did not end well. Husband berated wife for saying anything about their marriage to the bishop. She told me that she got yelled at for several days. I can sort of see his point -- once you tell your bishop or RS president, or home or visiting teacher anything, you may become a topic of ward council meetings. You know, they can't help you if they don't know all the dirt on you.

Knowing what I know after serving as RS president, I will never tell any ward member, including the bishop, anything I don't want announced over the pulpit.
I'm glad to have found this out. This will definitely change the way I discuss things with my bishop.
It makes me wonder how all interviews would go if they were prefaced with the bishopric member stating: "I have the right to share anything you tell me with anyone I choose."

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Mark
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Mark »

Obrien wrote:
freedomforall wrote: ... Again, you posted some real good passages, Obrien.
Thanks - those are some of my personal favorites. Yes, many, many more could be cited backing up the assertion, for a faithful person, that Christ is the Judge and that He saves. I just don't see where we are to be in authority and judge one another for and in behalf of an institution - I don't buy that concept. Yes, we are to judge righteous judgement, but I believe that refers to discerning good from evil and avoiding the evil. Let God judge and absolve sin as He sees fit.

So, going back to the OP, the soon-to-be missionary should go Christ for forgiveness, as well as mama - she ought to seek forgiveness, too. :)

If you dont buy the concept of a Bishop being called and appointed to be a common judge among the inhabitants of the wards and branches of the church with the responsibility to conduct worthiness interviews, counsel members, and administer church discipline then you might as well just throw out several sections of the Doctrine & Covenants beginning with section 107 verses 73-81 and section 46 verses 27-29 for starters . The Lords house is a house of order. If you truly believe in the restoration then you will not deny the proper roles of Priesthood authorities to minister and act in stewardship responsibility as outlined by the revelations of the Lord thru the Prophet Joseph.

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Tetraman
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Tetraman »

I had a companion on my mission that had some unresolved issues involving sexual transgression. He was the most miserable person I have ever met in my life. Suffering almost to the point of being ill most of his mission. He could not function as a missionary. He finally confessed to the mission president and was sent home. It was the first time he had peace of conscience since being set apart as a missionary.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by A Random Phrase »

wwjd wrote:What would Jesus do?

Simple - let your son alone, let the spirit teach him in this, give him his agency and love him as God and the spirit do their loving perfect work with his child he loaned to you.
Triple Amen to this. It is vital for him to learn through his own experiences. It is vital for him to come to God on his own terms, in his own time and way - even if that means through painful experiences such as realizing he does not have the Spirit and cannot teach.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by A Random Phrase »

gkearney wrote:I would like to point out here that we have no way of knowing:

1. If this young man has really done anything that would even require him to speak to the Bishop. I really doubt his mother would be in a position to know with certainty what is or is not going on between her son and this young woman.
Exactly!
And

2. We don't know even if there was an issue if it has already been address in private between this young man and his Bishop. Again his mother likely would not know the particulars of such a meeting.
Exactly!

Everyone here seems to be assuming the worst in this case which I find troubling. This is a private matter between the boy, the girl and the Lord and perhaps the Bishop an not for public speculation on the Internet.
Exactly!
The assumptions and judgment directed toward a person who has not been proven guilty is disconcerting, to say the least.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by A Random Phrase »

Tetraman wrote:I had a companion on my mission that had some unresolved issues involving sexual transgression. He was the most miserable person I have ever met in my life. Suffering almost to the point of being ill most of his mission. He could not function as a missionary. He finally confessed to the mission president and was sent home. It was the first time he had peace of conscience since being set apart as a missionary.
I knew a missionary who had the same issues. I did not know why he was having such a tough time. He and I would talk often. Finally, the rumor was that he was going to be sent home. Of course, all of us thought that was a horrible thing and wanted him to stay. The mp said it was a good for him to go home. After I got home from my mission, I was at college, waiting in the hall for a class to start. He came up to me and said he had married his girlfriend after he'd gone home. He seemed to think I knew what he was talking about. It took me a minute to put two and two together.

So, yes, it can tear a missionary apart. I wholeheartedly agree. And yet I think it was better for him to have learned this through his own experience than to have someone try to control him and his decisions (if the girlfriend were to say something to the bishop, that would be different, because she was a partner in this).

freedomforall
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by freedomforall »

wwjd wrote:What would Jesus do?

Simple - let your son alone, let the spirit teach him in this, give him his agency and love him as God and the spirit do their loving perfect work with his child he loaned to you.
What would Jesus do? He would most likely tell him to repent right there on the spot and go and sin no more. Even then, the boy has to ask for forgiveness with real intent and full purpose of heart. God cannot sweep sin under a rug for any man or woman. There must be true repentance and remittance of sin. Period.

freedomforall
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by freedomforall »

Does anyone here besides myself assume we've been bamboozled? We've rattled on with ideas but have had no acknowledgement by the OP. I suppose the topic is moot. Oh,well.

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Obrien
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Obrien »

freedomforall wrote:
Obrien wrote:
freedomforall wrote: ... Again, you posted some real good passages, Obrien.
Thanks - those are some of my personal favorites. Yes, many, many more could be cited backing up the assertion, for a faithful person, that Christ is the Judge and that He saves. I just don't see where we are to be in authority and judge one another for and in behalf of an institution - I don't buy that concept. Yes, we are to judge righteous judgement, but I believe that refers to discerning good from evil and avoiding the evil. Let God judge and absolve sin as He sees fit.

So, going back to the OP, the soon-to-be missionary should go Christ for forgiveness, as well as mama. :)
I simply assert that this scripture:

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

A good bishop is a servant just as is a prophet. Therefore we need to go to a bishop for serious sin as the scriptures indicate.

Only the Lord can remove anguish of heart and soul. But the bishop is a go between in that effort. I know, been there, done that. I know.
"Servant" does not necessarily equal "bishop". I'm glad you got some help from a bishop. I've never been harmed by a bishop, but I also don't talk to them much, in their official capacity.

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Obrien
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Obrien »

freedomforall wrote:Does anyone here besides myself assume we've been bamboozled? We've rattled on with ideas but have had no acknowledgement by the OP. I suppose the topic is moot. Oh,well.
Tjmama, author of the original post, has exactly 1 post on the forum. She likely was either so offended by some of the ideas written that she left, or (more likely) she forgot her password and can't get back on to respond...

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shadow
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by shadow »

Obrien wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Does anyone here besides myself assume we've been bamboozled? We've rattled on with ideas but have had no acknowledgement by the OP. I suppose the topic is moot. Oh,well.
Tjmama, author of the original post, has exactly 1 post on the forum. She likely was either so offended by some of the ideas written that she left, or (more likely) she forgot her password and can't get back on to respond...
Or the whole mission thing doesn't matter anymore because tjmama is going to change her name to grandmamma in about 9 months :-?

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Obrien
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Obrien »

shadow wrote:
Obrien wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Does anyone here besides myself assume we've been bamboozled? We've rattled on with ideas but have had no acknowledgement by the OP. I suppose the topic is moot. Oh,well.
Tjmama, author of the original post, has exactly 1 post on the forum. She likely was either so offended by some of the ideas written that she left, or (more likely) she forgot her password and can't get back on to respond...
Or the whole mission thing doesn't matter anymore because tjmama is going to change her name to grandmamma in about 9 months :-?
=)) =))

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by A Random Phrase »

wwjd wrote:What would Jesus do?
Apparently forgive him on the spot if he felt any guilt about it.

Juliet
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by Juliet »

I would tell him that I see he is very interested in his girlfriend and he is treating her as a priority. I would suggest he think it over and decide if he really wants to go on a mission, or stay home and get married. Obviously he really loves her to be so close to the boundaries. Whatever he decides is good and there is no shame either way. But if he does choose to go the route of a mission, he needs to confide to his bishop what he is involved with. Let him choose a heartfelt path because no one should act out ego. There is a parable about 2 sons, one said he wouldn't serve the Lord but later repented. He was more respected then the one who said He would serve the Lord but then never really did. I just think if he really had his heart set on a mission he would know to lock his heart up, but what do I know.

davedan
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by davedan »

The goals is not to have every young man serve a mission but to be worthy and to be married in the temple.

Going on a mission can help young men prepare for marriage but not absolutely necessary.

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gkearney
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Re: Requesting some input on son leaving for mission and not 100% sexually pure

Post by gkearney »

I like how we have besmirched this young man reputation, assuming the very worst possible up to and including a pregnancy, as if neither he nor the girl ever heard of birth control.

The original post off not a bit of proof of anything just a mother's hunch that "something" was going on. There are something a boy does not tell his mother and one of those things is what is, or isn not, going on between him and his girlfriend. Further the mother would not be privy to know what went on between the boy and his Bishop. We simply have no facts here to be engaged in such speculations. This whole matter is between the young man, the young woman his Bishop and the Lord, full stop.

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