Is it wrong to be a feminist?

[butterfly]

What aspects of the feminist agenda are out of step with what God wants for His daughters?
I've heard several complaints that women who choose anything other than marriage and/or kids are not following the Savior. Is this accurate or just a cultural perception?

Is it wrong for a woman to go to college, get degrees (not just a husband), and start a career in something she's skilled at and loves doing?
Is it wrong for her to develop her own faith to use the priesthood, which God can share with her even if she doesn't have a husband?
Is it wrong for her to turn down marriage, to choose to remain single as long as she remains chaste?
Or if she is married, is it wrong to choose to have a career instead of kids?
Is it wrong for her to join the military?

Why do some people believe that it's wrong for a woman to be successful in life outside of marriage and children?

[ebenezerarise]

In a word, yes.

[Ezra]

I would say all those are wrong in that they are selfish.

Any way in which we put our own desires above what God has asked is wrong.

The drive for a degree is usually money worldliness. The drive for military service is usually to prove to others ones bravery strength. Not to mention most likely you will be working to fulfill a sceem of secret combination in doing so.

Turning down marriage usually is for some selfish reason. Not wanting kids same.

It's the same boat for men too.

[ebenezerarise]

What I really detest about feminism is the attack they make on women who choose to embrace their roles as mothers and wives while running homes, businesses, and getting degrees and such. It's not that women can't or shouldn't do those things -- it is that they have greater roles that come first. In the history of my family are scores of strong, independent women who accomplished so much and served so many yet they are scorned by other women for not being bitter and anti-male.

[braingrunt]

First, I will not be able to give facts or citations, my beliefs are presented and you can take it or leave it. Maybe the spirit could be a second witness to some of what I say.

I believe it's important for a woman to be able to gain dignified employment and be paid fairly when necessary.

However, I believe it is not right in general for women to work full time. Yet, however poorly people judge this necessity, it has to be left to their judgement.

-One evil that has resulted from women in the workplace is the growing need for a second income, just to match the power that a single income had in the 50's. In other words traditional families have had burdens added to them partly because of the growing number of women making the choice to work--and by so doing forging new economic norms and realities.

So economics itself begins to push more mothers into the workplace.

-As for me, I take it as self-evident that two working parents results in less happy and secure children. This is another evil. I'm sorry but it has and will come with a cost, a destructive one. Some such children will surely be less eager for family, or if they are eager, some of them will be less practiced and less skilled in healthy righteous family life--and will struggle to execute it.

In other words, the proliferation of two working parents will tend to the weakening of the family unit, as a societal meme that people strive for and value. The church has warned that the weakening of the family will bring upon us the destructions prophecied.

-As an aside, I also take it as self evident that role reversal, men staying home and women working, is not ideal. While I think it is far superior to two working parents, I'm sure it is not the will of the Lord generally. Men and women are different.

Stop to think logically for a second. We wouldn't for one millisecond doubt that God meant for female cats to raise their litters. We'd never doubt that cows have mental and emotional calfrearing skills which bulls lack. We'd even likely fully accept that even among more intelligent animals, females are uniquely appropriate as childrearers. Apes, elephants, and even dolphins (supposedly as smart as us by some estimations).

But wait, you say, we're not animals, you say. Well, you're right. We can do better than them. But based on the patterns of nature, either according to God's will, or evoltion if you must: it's sheer lunacy to think that men and women would have the same nature and mandate. If we resist what God or nature fitted us for, I predict eventual dissatisfaction and dysfunction. This will be another wound to people in general and families specifically.

-One other problem with working for the sake of working (and this goes for both men and women), is that what we are working for, however noble, can only be useful for sustaining our telestial lives and building up the telestial kingdom. Letting that work supercede work that actually can have celestial and eternal value, could only be the result of spiritual sickness.

And the work where you can have the most eternal power, by far, is raising your OWN children in the gospel. The effect a primary teacher can have, while important, is nothing compared to what a mother and father can have. In my mind, there's literally no comparison.

If God does not bless you with children, I think adopting if possible is almost a responsibility.


Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[zionminded]

We live in a culture (and church) with strong paternal biases and traditions. This includes the priesthood, leadership and cultural beliefs.

There is a fine line between pride and supporting women equality and the divine feminine; women for change is a positive thing IMO.

[braingrunt]

If we are mistreating or disrespecting women, we should stop it.

[jbalm]

What aspects of the feminist agenda are out of step with what God wants for His daughters?
I've heard several complaints that women who choose anything other than marriage and/or kids are not following the Savior. Is this accurate or just a cultural perception?

Is it wrong for a woman to go to college, get degrees (not just a husband), and start a career in something she's skilled at and loves doing?
Is it wrong for her to develop her own faith to use the priesthood, which God can share with her even if she doesn't have a husband?
Is it wrong for her to turn down marriage, to choose to remain single as long as she remains chaste?
Or if she is married, is it wrong to choose to have a career instead of kids?
Is it wrong for her to join the military?

Why do some people believe that it's wrong for a woman to be successful in life outside of marriage and children?

There's nothing wrong with any of that stuff.

[Jonesy]

I agree with feminism in the sense that they should be treated fairly and have equal opportunity.

However, I just believe that a woman's greatest calling is at home with kids.

From the Proclamation to the World:

HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

Children are our primary responsibility. I would love to stay home full time and be with them, but my wife has such an intrinsic capability to do so that I just don't have. I'm lucky to have a job so that she doesn't have to work.

My wife is extremely capable. Her schooling was mostly paid for based on her academic achievements and she has a master's degree. Before we had kids, she worked full-time with a well-paying job. But now, even though she loved what she did, she sacrificed it to stay home with our kids. She has been so unselfish and self-sacrificing to do so. My son, just a few weeks old, requires that my wife have a very strict diet. He requires a lot of attention. She doesn't have to do many of the things she does for our children, but she wants to do it for our kids. I've never seen my wife at such a capacity she's at. It's inspiring to say the least.

Let me say this: she wouldn't get nearly the spiritual depth nor growth right now taking care of the kids than she ever would while working full time.

There is so much a woman can do at home and nurture the kids if they would just tap that creative source. I'm almost jealous the type of real learning and teaching opportunities they have. The potential is endless. The home is a women's clay, and though it requires great sacrifice and dedication, it can be molded into producing great fruit. I think if a woman would ask God to give them a vision of the fruit of motherhood, it would be one of the most desirable and rewarding things she could accomplish here. My wife and I still have a great relationship which only fuels her success as a great mother.

About schooling and such; I think the woman has a great opportunity to be taught by the Lord himself rather than by these Babylonian schools which is mostly required for a man to provide for his family. But if a woman feels the need to get an education, then by all means she should do so.

And I get stuck working. So, yes, maybe it would be selfish to her and her kids. Ok, I don't know about selfish, but she sure would be robbing herself of an amazing opportunity.

[butterfly]

What I really detest about feminism is the attack they make on women who choose to embrace their roles as mothers and wives while running homes, businesses, and getting degrees and such. It's not that women can't or shouldn't do those things -- it is that they have greater roles that come first. In the history of my family are scores of strong, independent women who accomplished so much and served so many yet they are scorned by other women for not being bitter and anti-male.

It bothers me, too, when stay at home moms are criticised for their decisions to not work. And I also agree that when there are children involved, parents should raise them as much as possible, instead of relying on daycares and preschool programs, etc. I know moms who are glad to send their kids to these pre-k schools starting at age 3, which, if not a necessity, is too young IMO.

However, I believe that it's valuable for women to go to college and learn a skill they could use in the workplace. Going to college can expose women to new ideas, cultures, and ways to solve family problems. If a woman only knows what she grew up with, and she goes from her childhood home to being married, I believe she's more likely to repeat the mistakes her own parents made. Going to college can teach her new solutions that are practiced around the world for childrearing.

In addition, I've noticed that women who have the choice to work part-time can find a satisfying break from the unending work of motherhood. I've also noticed that some men don't particularly enjoy staying home with the kids because of all the work involved. So they say "it's a woman's job" , thinking that's the reason they don't find fulfillment. But I think the truth is "it's a hard job", and one that neither parent feels qualified for.

I also believe that if we taught women that they can accomplish things outside of serving their families, meaning knowledge and skills that contribute to their personal development, we'd see less depression and shop-aholics among LDS women.

[jbalm]

And then there are women that can't have kids.

Are their lives just pointless?

[inho]

There is nothing wrong in being feminist.

Of the things mentioned, the only bit questionable is choosing not to have kids because of career. God has commanded us to multiply and replenish the earth. Obviously, this is a commandment for men too. If a man chooses not to have children, or does not live up to his role as father, it is wrong too.

It is also very important to understand that if we teach that the most important thing a woman can do is to give birth and raise kids, it might have unwanted consequences. (It is of course very important, but women can do many other meaningful things too.) Not all women are able to have children. Not all women will find a good man to marry. If ones fate is to stay single, it is a pity to not have education and worked for a career. Too much focus on marriage may pressure people to marry someone who is not good for them.

[butterfly]

I would say all those are wrong in that they are selfish.

Any way in which we put our own desires above what God has asked is wrong.

The drive for a degree is usually money worldliness. The drive for military service is usually to prove to others ones bravery strength. Not to mention most likely you will be working to fulfill a sceem of secret combination in doing so.

Turning down marriage usually is for some selfish reason. Not wanting kids same.

It's the same boat for men too.

I don't believe it's always selfish. Doesn't God want each of His daughters to be happy? Shouldn't they have a chance to personally develop their own interests and skills? What if a woman is blessed with a knack for learning or science or medicine?

Once a woman has children, most if not all of her personal time is gone; she is also told that this time of constant servitude, often without time to care for her own needs, is supposed to be the happiest time of her life. And while I agree, that it is very rewarding to be a mother, and I gladly chose it when I had lots of other options, I can see why many women deteriorate into nagging their husbands, depression/anxiety, and ultimately discontentment.

I think women need to feel good about being happy just as individuals and not that they can only find joy as a wife or mom.

[butterfly]

And then there are women that can't have kids.

Are their lives just pointless?

Exactly, a woman has more to do in life and more purpose than only bearing children. We should prepare women for joy with or without kids. Women eventually reach menopause, and then life continues.

[braingrunt]

And then there are women that can't have kids.

Are their lives just pointless?

Exactly, a woman has more to do in life and more purpose than only bearing children. We should prepare women for joy with or without kids. Women eventually reach menopause, and then life continues.

I'm not disagreeing with this except for the negative connotation of the word "only".
Education is good. My wife has a bachelors degree. I was supportive of her getting her masters degree, but she decided without any encouragement/discouragement from me, entirely of her own accord, to stop a couple of semesters short.

As for women who can't have kids, I've already addressed that. As for those who can't find decent companions, they should do as the church suggests and prepare for work. If they are in their situation without fault, then they can be confident that they are filling the measure of their creation. However, if they willfully choose to ignore God's command, then something is wrong.

[1eunga]

Imma say the most important purpose in life for women is to bare children. Have all the success in life u want, but if u respect God, respect his plan.

[butterfly]

About schooling and such; I think the woman has a great opportunity to be taught by the Lord himself rather than by these Babylonian schools which is mostly required for a man to provide for his family. But if a woman feels the need to get an education, then by all means she should do so.

I used to think this as well. "As soon as I become a mom, instinct will kick in and I will know how to do everything." Loving your kids is instinctual, but knowing how to parent is not. My husband had a great mom, whereas I didn't really have good female role models. So when we had kids, it was my husband who was teaching me how to be a loving mother. The rest I learned from going to college, reading books, researching, asking questions, and of course, praying.
My point is, being a good parent requires more than birthing a child.
I now have more patience with the kids than my husband does, but that is because I've been staying at home and getting lots of practice, not because I am a woman.

[Rensai]

Feminism has led to abortion, the destruction of the family, etc. How can there be any question it is bad?

[ebenezerarise]

It bothers me, too, when stay at home moms are criticised for their decisions to not work. And I also agree that when there are children involved, parents should raise them as much as possible, instead of relying on daycares and preschool programs, etc. I know moms who are glad to send their kids to these pre-k schools starting at age 3, which, if not a necessity, is too young IMO.

However, I believe that it's valuable for women to go to college and learn a skill they could use in the workplace. Going to college can expose women to new ideas, cultures, and ways to solve family problems. If a woman only knows what she grew up with, and she goes from her childhood home to being married, I believe she's more likely to repeat the mistakes her own parents made. Going to college can teach her new solutions that are practiced around the world for childrearing.

I completely agree.

In addition, I've noticed that women who have the choice to work part-time can find a satisfying break from the unending work of motherhood. I've also noticed that some men don't particularly enjoy staying home with the kids because of all the work involved. So they say "it's a woman's job" , thinking that's the reason they don't find fulfillment. But I think the truth is "it's a hard job", and one that neither parent feels qualified for.

Any priesthood holder who feels "it's a woman's job" should be taken out and shot.

I also believe that if we taught women that they can accomplish things outside of serving their families, meaning knowledge and skills that contribute to their personal development, we'd see less depression and shop-aholics among LDS women.

Women are taught those things. Some choose to engage in worldly pursuits that lead to depression and other ills. Men do too.

[ebenezerarise]

And then there are women that can't have kids.

Are their lives just pointless?

Of course not and you know it.

[ebenezerarise]

Women eventually reach menopause, and then life continues.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. I would just add that the roles of grandmothers cannot be understated. They continue to serve in nurturing capacities well after their children are grown -- first to their grown children and especially their daughters who have become mothers themselves, and then to their grandchildren. They play a critical role.

There is also service to other women, men and children to provide in whatever capacity they choose in the family, church or community.

Feminism likes to box those who don't adhere to their bitter agenda by saying women are held back or just don't embrace these roles outside of motherhood. That's false.

There are plenty of incredible women with their hands still on the plow, doing the work of men, as it were, while still championing those unique things that make them women. I personally believe that women are, for the most part, super human. Feminism is a philosophy that holds them back and puts them down.

[Contemplator]

There are a lot of opinions that are based upon our current, or historically recent, circumstances. If we go back to the prototype for a married couple, Adam and Eve, we see the following in Moses 5:

1 And it came to pass that after I, the Lord God, had driven them out, that Adam began to till the earth, and to have dominion over all the beasts of the field, and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow, as I the Lord had commanded him. And Eve, also, his wife, did labor with him.
2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.
3 And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters.

The notion of a man working and woman staying home is, in historical terms, quite recent. Survival dictated that the man and the woman both labored for the good of the family. The proclamation on the family defines "primary" areas of responsibility and then reminds us that we are equal partners in all things. I think a woman and a man, as equal partners, should figure out how to provide for the spiritual, emotional and temporal needs of their family. And, we should all probably spend less time second-guessing others choices in these matters.

[Jonesy]

I used to think this as well. "As soon as I become a mom, instinct will kick in and I will know how to do everything." Loving your kids is instinctual, but knowing how to parent is not. My husband had a great mom, whereas I didn't really have good female role models. So when we had kids, it was my husband who was teaching me how to be a loving mother. The rest I learned from going to college, reading books, researching, asking questions, and of course, praying.
My point is, being a good parent requires more than birthing a child.
I now have more patience with the kids than my husband does, but that is because I've been staying at home and getting lots of practice, not because I am a woman.

I can agree with that. Loving them is the easy part. The how-to part isn't. What I mean to say is that learning from the Lord isn't necessarily instinct either. I also think that because society has been broken down along with the family (because the family has been broken down), then we start to substitute it with a career, more education, etc.

I say screw all that. My wife has networked with other mothers that creates a bond reaching out to our community. She gets hands-on, real-life, social skill and learning that exceeds that of any university. She gets exactly the knowledge she's seeking because she uses it and learns it from other mother's who've been there and done that. They put their knowledge to work immediately. And if it doesn't work, it's for her benefit and new-found wisdom.

My whole point, I guess, is the more we reject Babylon and try and learn through the Lord (where true knowledge and wisdom originates) then the more we become Zion.

[Ezra]

I would say all those are wrong in that they are selfish.

Any way in which we put our own desires above what God has asked is wrong.

The drive for a degree is usually money worldliness. The drive for military service is usually to prove to others ones bravery strength. Not to mention most likely you will be working to fulfill a sceem of secret combination in doing so.

Turning down marriage usually is for some selfish reason. Not wanting kids same.

It's the same boat for men too.

I don't believe it's always selfish. Doesn't God want each of His daughters to be happy? Shouldn't they have a chance to personally develop their own interests and skills? What if a woman is blessed with a knack for learning or science or medicine?

Once a woman has children, most if not all of her personal time is gone; she is also told that this time of constant servitude, often without time to care for her own needs, is supposed to be the happiest time of her life. And while I agree, that it is very rewarding to be a mother, and I gladly chose it when I had lots of other options, I can see why many women deteriorate into nagging their husbands, depression/anxiety, and ultimately discontentment.

I think women need to feel good about being happy just as individuals and not that they can only find joy as a wife or mom.

Men ,woman all people only find happiness in what they personally choose to find happiness in.

It's a personal choice. And can change at a drop of a hat.

When we boil it down. The question of what we need to be happy is really the same for all people unless they are stuck in their selfish mind set.
We need nothing.
The key to happiness is not having more it's simply wanting less.

We each have the same capabilitys to find happiness in nothing.

D&c 121 33-43 states pretty clearly that many are called few are chosen because they care sooooooooooooooo much about the things of the world!!!!!!!!!! And they aspire to the honors of men.

So we as people should be striving to be the opposite. Not being worldly not caring what men think. Not keeping up with the jones.

People have an idea that they need wealth a degree a nice car nice house nice clothing to be able to travel or do something out of the ordinary. Be a doctor on and on and on in order to be happy. They are constantly are looking outward to find happiness. Constantly looking to personal accomplishment as a means to find happiness. Doing and striving all day many things in hope to find happiness and fulfillment.

And they will never find it.

They may get moments of happiness. Temporary glimpses when they reach a goal. But they are fleeting.

True happiness only happens when we discover that we are our own source of it.

And once you figure that out......... You don't have to waist so much of your time energy and means in obtaining it.

Your free to be free. And free to be happy no matter what.

[Kitkat]

I think the whole idea of "feminist" is a little twisted. I think there is nothing wrong with enjoying that fact that you are a woman and wanting to do what is fulfilling to you.

The whole idea of the "workforce" is only a little over a hundred years old. Women used to work the land alongside their husbands, and the kids joined in too. Those pioneers were the ultimate working women So if you take the idea further than perhaps it is less than ideal to have the fathers off in the workforce. The way God dropped the family in the world left the husband and wife working the land together.

Also, just food for thought those of you who are aware of the mirco-loan funds available in third world countries they started by ONLY loaning to women. They found that women were driven to repay the loan and support children in a way some men weren't when they were given the means. I do NOT say this to bash on men, but to say there is potentially nothing wrong with women helping to provide for their families.