Denver Snuffer says you don't need him "if". Why do you think you do?

[endlessQuestions]

This is a fork off of the "Who's jumping off the Denver Snuffer train?" thread. I was recently invited by one of Mr. Snuffer's followers to consider being rebaptized and so found myself beginning to study his teachings. Almost immediately I found this teaching:

"What I have written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon. If you understood the scriptures you wouldn’t even need what I’ve written."

This teaching caused me to ask two questions. The first was this:

QUESTION: "Is it true that what Denver has written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon?"

I spent a little bit of time looking at what he's written and the answer seemed obvious (and more importantly, verifiable, although I haven't taken the time to quantify how much of what he's written is taken from the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon).

UNCONFIRMED, BUT VERIFIABLE ANSWER: A very small amount of what Denver writes is taken from the scriptures, although the percentage would vary depending on whether you accept The Church of Jesus Christ's position regarding what scripture is, or Denver Snuffer's. The vast majority of what Denver has written is his interpretation of what he believes the scriptures are trying to communicate.

So the first part of his teaching evaluated to false. This led me to my second question

QUESTION: "Do I need Denver Snuffer to understand the scriptures?"

This seemed important because an equivalent way of saying what Denver said is "if you understand the scriptures, you don't even need anything I've written." Well, the first thing that I had to ask myself was this: "endlessismyname, do you understand the scriptures?". The answer came immediately: no, if by understanding the scriptures we mean knowing everything about them. But then another thought followed: "endlessismyname, what does it mean to understand the scriptures?" Again, the answer came quickly: I don't know. So I looked at what the word "understand" means. Apparently it means "perceive the intended meaning of". The thought then came, "who do you think is more qualified to teach you the intended meaning of the scriptures: me, or Denver Snuffer?" Point well taken.

ANSWER: I don't need Denver Snuffer to understand the scriptures. He might help me understand them if anything he says is true, but combing through the volumes of work he's produced seems daunting, particularly when I have the source documents Snuffer says contain all the knowledge I need (scriptures) right in front of me, and the being who can unquestionably tell me what the intended meaning of the words are, since he is the one who caused them to be written. What can I say? I'm lazy, and I'd rather read the source material than the commentary and let the author help me perceive what the intended meaning of the document is than listen to a man who may or may not have received authority from God to reveal that intended meaning to me. I'm risk averse, and the latter course of action seems risky.

All this led me to...

CONCLUSION: I am inclined to ignore Mr. Snuffer and his teachings unless something has changed between when he wrote those words and today. I am hereby inviting him to explain to all of us whether something has changed since he provided his earlier teaching, and, if it has, what it is that has changed and why we now need him even if we have it within our power to understand the scriptures and work out our own salvation without his intercession.

Before today I would have been willing to entertain others' arguments regarding this last point but Denver made it very clear in his blog post yesterday that "I have NO SPOKESMAN" (http://denversnuffer.com/2016/01/second-hand-rumors/). If it's to be explained, then Snuffer asks that he be allowed to speak for himself. I'm willing to allow him to, if he's willing to speak.

I am, on the other hand, happy to hear why those who follow him believe that they can't understand the scriptures without Denver Snuffer as their guide, and why they've therefore decided to accept his interpretations as authoritative and follow his teachings, up to and including his teaching that you must be rebaptized.

The invitation has been extended. Is there anyone who is willing to take the position that we cannot understand the scriptures without reading and listening to Denver Snuffer (even just for argument's sake)? It seems I'll need to do a bit more work to see if I can bring the invitation directly to Snuffer's attention, which I will work on today. If anyone knows the man, or how to most easily get a hold of him, I would be indebted to you if you would extend the invitation on my behalf, or provide relevant contact information so I might do it myself. A quick (perhaps too quick) look at his blog didn't reveal a "Contact" page or an email address on any of the pages.

[jeffreyrichardson_]

I am, on the other hand, happy to hear why those who follow him believe that they can't understand the scriptures without Denver Snuffer as their guide, and why they've therefore decided to accept his interpretations as authoritative and follow his teachings

I foresee a lot of rebuttals to "those who follow him" and "can't understand the scriptures without Denver Snuffer as their guide."

Simply because that's not true.

At any rate, private message coming your way.

[Zathura]

You'll have to post this on a forum with more of the Denver Supporters.

I actually think that everything he said has scriptural basis. It mostly comes from D&C, Lectures on Faith, and Journals about Joseph.

I don't need to defend him though, I haven't felt a need to do the things he says we need to do. I'm good in the Church, God will continue to do his work.

[endlessQuestions]

Thanks to all who have PMed me regarding my request. I've been provided a couple ways to try to contact Mr. Snuffer and have sent some emails that state the following:

-------------------
Mr. Snuffer,

I've created a post over at ldsfreedomforum asking you to clarify a teaching you put forth some time ago. The link to that posting is viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41084" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

All the relevant information regarding my question can be found on the posting, so I won't repeat it here.

Thank you for considering my invitation to have a dialogue about this particular teaching. I'm sending this request from an anonymous email address out of a desire to remain entirely unknown, as I'd rather have people focused on the facts rather than the personalities insofar as it is possible. My handle on ldsfreedomforum is endlessismyname. Any reply you make to this email will only be available to me for one hour from when it is sent, so I will monitor this inbox for the next 12 hours and then try again tomorrow if I haven't heard back. Another option is for you to send me a private message on the forum.

Thanks,

endless

-------------

I'll provide an update if/when I hear back, or tomorrow AM if I haven't heard anything.

[endlessQuestions]

Stahura,

I will simply point out that teaching things that have a scriptural basis is not equivalent to teaching God's will. I trust you could find examples of what I mean in the scriptures if you felt so inclined.

Thanks for your reply!

[zionminded]

Denver has some really good things to say, and I agree with much (not all) of it. The problem is we don't need to follow Mr Snuffer, and we should follow Christ. Ones doesn't need to go through the things he brings up, but if you do, take each interesting point to the Lord and have him tell you what you need to know, and ignore.

[marc]

2 Nephi 28:14...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

If you have the spirit of prophecy, then you don't need another man, even a prophet, to guide you to come unto Christ for the Holy Ghost will tell you all the things you should do. The things of God can only be understood by the Spirit. If one relies on man's interpretations of scripture, no matter his calling, he is relying on the arm of flesh. Thus it not of God. The only reason to have "official interpretations" in church is so that those without the Spirit can understand them. But without understanding by the Spirit, it is meaningless. It does not produce conversion, but merely conformity.

D&C 50:17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

If you understand why the Book of Mormon is a new covenant, then there is no point in asking anyone anything. The fact remains that you lack knowledge or else you would know whether or not to disregard Denver's message or to seek out everyone else's input. There is clearly a gap that you are trying to fill. If you don't think you need anyone's help to understand the Book of Mormon, then this should be the end of it. But I'll leave you with one final thought.

1 Nephi 15:8 Have ye inquired of the Lord?

[Gad]

[North_Star]

Well....it's good to see his name can again be mentioned here. It's been a while since I've been here....Think I'll hang around for a few days to see how this evolves.

p.s. I think Gad has a good point.

[Gad]

Well....it's good to see his name can again be mentioned here. It's been a while since I've been here....Think I'll hang around for a few days to see how this evolves.

p.s. I think Gad has a good point.

Plus, it is a cool song. Check out his Fighting Trousers one.

[North_Star]

LOL! I will. Thanks.

p.s.s. I've recently discovered Unknown Hinson music....pretty funny stuff too.

[endlessQuestions]

Denver has graciously responded to my message and if you desire you can follow the rest of the conversation over on his blog at http://denversnuffer.com/2016/01/an-email-ldsff/

Thanks again for everyone's help in putting me in touch with him. I hope a documented answer to my question will be available in the near future for all who desire to see it.

Once the conversation is over, I will most likely take the entirety of it and post it on this thread so that those who come through later will be able to see everything without having to bounce back and forth between sites.

[boo]

Of course you do not NEED any man to explain the scriptures to you if you have the HG because" it will show( and tell you )all things what you should do" 2 Nephi 32:5 However in as much as we are not equal in our spiritual gifts the Lord specifically commanded that we should " teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" D &C 88:77. So am I to understand that you are criticizing someone about whom you know very little because he follows the express scriptural admonition of God. Further more you must already know that DS claims that he didn't want to do any of this " stuff" and would not have except he was commanded by the Savior in multiple personal visitations. If you want a basis to criticism it seems to me you have picked a remarkably weak one. The guy has written 15 or so books and made outrageous claims that have the potential to split the church. Man up and don't be a sophist .Attack his fundamental claims not some highly nuanced one time comment that nobody really cares about.

[Obrien]

Stahura,

I will simply point out that teaching things that have a scriptural basis is not equivalent to teaching God's will. I trust you could find examples of what I mean in the scriptures if you felt so inclined.

Thanks for your reply!

Agreed, thus the need for following inspiration from the holy spirit.

I was going to post an altogether different response, but I listened to the prompting not to...

Is the question about rebaptism important to you, or is it just a springboard to discussion?

[Rose Garden]

I believe my answer to this dilemma can be universally applied. Read Denver when the Spirit tells you to or when you want to. Otherwise feel free to ignore him.

[Jesef]

I agree with Boo on this one. Attacking a nuanced logical contradiction in one statement seems very insignificant when weighed against all of Denver's earth-shattering claims. Why not dialog with him about his claims of direct personal encounters with the risen Lord Jesus Christ and the result of those producing his 10 talks and declaring the entire LDS Church basically rejected by the Lord and no longer offering authoritative/binding ordinances? You really should read this post to get some context on his current position (if you have not already):
http://denversnuffer.com/2015/12/come-unto-christ/

With that said, I do see the contradiction in the statement you're referencing.

[Jesef]

And with his responses to you, endless, I also feel shafted - I've sent him many e-mails to which he never responded. Why do you receive the special treatment?

[Obrien]

And with his responses to you, endless, I also feel shafted - I've sent him many e-mails to which he never responded. Why do you receive the special treatment?

Endless IS Denver Snuffer....... =))

[Jalden]

I don't think there is any attack of Denver going on here. In fact I think Denver will agree in large measure (agree that we don't need him if we have the scriptures), and of course we should expect him to agree, after all he is the one who said it (that the scriptures are sufficient, etc.). Furthermore, he has said such things on many occasions (in other words, not a one time comment). He has repeatedly said words to the effect that he (Denver) is weak and nothing, that the scriptures contain the fullness, that the spirit can teach us all things, that nobody should be following him, that he has no respect for people who follow him, etc, etc.

Of course, none of this negates in any way the scriptural injunction to teach one another. The question, I think, is not at all about whether Denver should be teaching us, or whether we should likewise be teaching others, or about whether or not he has any truth to share. The question is only about the value, or weight, of Denver's words.

Do his word carry special weight? As in, he is the messenger of the Lord, and therefore ignoring Denver's words will put us at risk of ignoring the Word of God to us in our day (which will bring upon us condemnation). Or, is he just another one of us, who's words can be inspiring and instructive, but are not necessarily binding upon us, and therefore placing special significance upon his teachings (i.e. placing them on par with, or even ahead of, the standard works) will put us at risk of placing our trust in man, setting him up as an idol in place of God, and his words in place of God's Words (which will bring upon us condemnation)? This is the question. And it is a marvelous one.

Peace.

[endlessQuestions]

Well if Log is a robot I suppose I might be Denver Snuffer... but I'm not. :))

I don't know why Denver chose to respond to me. I will say that I've had great luck in getting people to respond to my inquiries when others have had no such luck. If anyone wants to discuss my thoughts on why that might be, feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to have the conversation. Or we can start a thread; there's nothing secret about how I approach issues like this, and I'm happy to share with everybody what I've learned.

I'm not sure how to respond to some of the other comments. My aim is simple, and my desires pure.

I aim to get an answer to a question that sincerely puzzles me. At this point I have as good a shot as I can hope for to accomplish that.

My desire is to learn the truth regarding if and/or how Denver Snuffer is related to my discipleship. Getting an answer to this question is a piece of information that will help me fulfill my desire.

I understand that many of you feel you have already learned for yourself how to relate to this man who claims to have been commissioned by Christ to perform a work in His name. I have not - but I'm one step closer today than I was yesterday. I appreciate your patience as I work through the issue in the way I feel comfortable doing it.

endless

[Jesef]

So, which is it, Jalden? Have you obtained an answer to those questions you pose?

[Zathura]

And with his responses to you, endless, I also feel shafted - I've sent him many e-mails to which he never responded. Why do you receive the special treatment?

He responded to me once a long time ago, to a simple question. I'm sure he's incredibly busy. You probably just need to catch him at the right time

[Zathura]

My desire is to learn the truth regarding if and/or how Denver Snuffer is related to my discipleship. Getting an answer to this question is a piece of information that will help me fulfill my desire.


endless

I think the answer to your question is found in his 10th lecture, in which he says that God has renewed the commandment to be baptized in the name of Jesus by someone who has god given power to do so, like 3 Nephi 11. It doesn't require leaving the church(although you will be excommunicated for doing so) and you don't enter into another church by doing so.
If He is God's messenger, then you'd be foolish NOT to be re-baptized, since that command would be of God and this would help you in your discipleship. If he's not, then you can diregard what he said because it wouldn't make a difference in your relationship with God.

So, you just need to know by the power of the Holy Ghost if Denver Snuffer is God's messenger, or if he is not God's Messenger. If you pray and seek enough, you will obtain an answer.

[Jesef]

Stahura, did you obtain that answer? What was it and was it by the power of the Holy Ghost we've been discussing?

[Zathura]

Stahura, did you obtain that answer? What was it and was it by the power of the Holy Ghost we've been discussing?

I did not obtain that answer, that is why I have not taken any action.