Did Joseph F. Smith Hide “Strange” First Vision Account?

[kennyhs]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

My Granddaughter always says, " Be End," instead of " The End."

So what you have to say is, " The End?" That's not what the Book Of Mormon teaches, how many Prophets were in the BOM? How many in the Bible?
The Lord Jesus Christ established His Church, i.e. Prophets, Apostles, teachers etc. Why on earth do " Some of you," think you have learned a little more?

Jesus Christ founded this church the same way he founded it through Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses: by calling a Prophet He restored that very same church through Joseph Smith, as He did with past prophets. After all, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Be End

[zionminded]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

This is interesting. How do you explain 1830? Can you give more information?

[Joel]

Sadly, Leejae died last year.

[Rachael]

:ymapplause:

I think the story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery illustrates the power of mercy over justice.

The woman broke the law, the men there were justified in stoning her. Just as in many ways, we are perfectly justified in picking up stones to cast at church leaders. "And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;...And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;" (D&C 1:25-27)

Pick up that stone, brother.

Remember though that Jesus showed another way. I believe that those men who dropped the stones and walked away were better than most of us. I see an incredible act of humility and understanding. It must have been so hard to let go of those stones, to feel the cold and gritty potential, the control. To drop the stone and allow the judgement to fall into the hands of the Lord.

Whatever their motivations, I see a noble deed worthy of our respect. What was right was more important than being right.

I like this, but perhaps there is a gender issue. I'm not with the ordain women crowd (as my disclaimer), but the man wasn't getting stoned. It takes two to tango. And there aren't any GA females, not really, it's kinda like an emeritus status. But that isn't a precise way to articulate it, but it's been a long day

[oneClimbs]

I like this, but perhaps there is a gender issue. I'm not with the ordain women crowd (as my disclaimer), but the man wasn't getting stoned. It takes two to tango. And there aren't any GA females, not really, it's kinda like an emeritus status. But that isn't a precise way to articulate it, but it's been a long day

I agree with you Rachael, there IS indeed and has been an inequality or perhaps even an injustice when it comes to gender among the people of God. I'm not with the ordain women crowd either, but I do think that the way women operated in the church back in Joseph's day was closer to where things should probably be. We've gone backwards in many ways, but forwards in others. I think it is safe to say that we are far from Zion and even further from the order that lies beyond the veil.

Abraham 4:18 speaks volumes to me. "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed." I think God gives us a lot of room to try and figure things out, he doesn't force his will on us, he does allow quite horrific things to happen so it isn't shocking to see how he might allow a particular policy to be perpetuated without intervention. This sounds very cold and frustrating but I've pondered this quite a bit and have come to some understanding that I'm not sure I could enunciate here without a LOT of room.

I have spent the better part of the last year studying much about the male/female dynamic and especially the divine Mother. I have learned quite a bit and I feel like I have only barely peeled back a layer but it has revolutionized my perspective on things. While I know that there is much that can probably be done better, and other things that could easily bless the saints if they were simply reinstated, there are bigger things at play.

Good things are ahead, there's more that what we see on the surface. The present gender situation is what it is, but it will not be what what is in the end. The male/female dynamic is an eternal principle, it is in everything and there is a wonderful purpose behind it. Yes, most of the characters in scriptures are men, but the other side is there if you know where to find it, it's everywhere and deeply woven.

LDS theology captures it, it's in there. We actually openly profess the existence of a Heavenly Mother, think about how great that is! All I'm saying is that in some areas, we will simply have to be patient. In others, we can have our minds opened to wonderful truths right now. To me, it is enough for the moment to know these things. I have four daughters (no sons) and I am so excited to be able to share what I have learned with them as they grow. I love what we as men and women have between us and what we are together, it's a great thing.

[Obrien]

I like this, but perhaps there is a gender issue. I'm not with the ordain women crowd (as my disclaimer), but the man wasn't getting stoned. It takes two to tango. And there aren't any GA females, not really, it's kinda like an emeritus status. But that isn't a precise way to articulate it, but it's been a long day

I agree with you Rachael, there IS indeed and has been an inequality or perhaps even an injustice when it comes to gender among the people of God. I'm not with the ordain women crowd either, but I do think that the way women operated in the church back in Joseph's day was closer to where things should probably be. We've gone backwards in many ways, but forwards in others. I think it is safe to say that we are far from Zion and even further from the order that lies beyond the veil.

Abraham 4:18 speaks volumes to me. "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed." I think God gives us a lot of room to try and figure things out, he doesn't force his will on us, he does allow quite horrific things to happen so it isn't shocking to see how he might allow a particular policy to be perpetuated without intervention. This sounds very cold and frustrating but I've pondered this quite a bit and have come to some understanding that I'm not sure I could enunciate here without a LOT of room.

I have spent the better part of the last year studying much about the male/female dynamic and especially the divine Mother. I have learned quite a bit and I feel like I have only barely peeled back a layer but it has revolutionized my perspective on things. While I know that there is much that can probably be done better, and other things that could easily bless the saints if they were simply reinstated, there are bigger things at play.

Good things are ahead, there's more that what we see on the surface. The present gender situation is what it is, but it will not be what what is in the end. The male/female dynamic is an eternal principle, it is in everything and there is a wonderful purpose behind it. Yes, most of the characters in scriptures are men, but the other side is there if you know where to find it, it's everywhere and deeply woven.

LDS theology captures it, it's in there. We actually openly profess the existence of a Heavenly Mother, think about how great that is! All I'm saying is that in some areas, we will simply have to be patient. In others, we can have our minds opened to wonderful truths right now. To me, it is enough for the moment to know these things. I have four daughters (no sons) and I am so excited to be able to share what I have learned with them as they grow. I love what we as men and women have between us and what we are together, it's a great thing.

We have time (and some of us have interest.)

[oneClimbs]

We have time (and some of us have interest.)

That's just the thing, I'm not sure I have the time to detail everything, or the ability to summarize.

Perhaps I can leave a few ideas. Consider agency, justice, and mercy, I know those are big topics but we understand that God must be perfectly just and that he is also perfectly merciful. This is paradoxical which means the reconciliation of these two things is something that perhaps only God understands in the big picture.

On a smaller scale, there are some things to observe in scripture. The Book of Mormon says repeatedly that those who keep the commandments will prosper in the land and this appears to be some kind of guarantee. Now you might expect the book to show only stories of the good guys always winning, but that isn't the case.

Abinadi dies horribly by fire, as do men, women, and children at the hands of evil men. People of Ammon are slaughtered even as they keep their covenant to not take up arms, and many righteous Nephites die in war.

On the other hand, the Stripling warriors are delivered, Alma and Amulek are miraculously delivered, and many more are delivered.

What we find is that in some cases God intervenes and in other cases he doesn't. There is no clear explanation why. Now here's where this is going to get very hard, both from a comprehension standpoint and from the fact that there are two life experiences that I cannot share in detail. One is dark and one is light, one involves me and the other my sister in two separate but what some would call supernatural experiences.

In both cases, we desired God's intervention. In my sister's case, the intervention came immediately upon request and was full of light. In my case, I sat for years and years in darkness and I was pushed to my breaking point. Intervention did come, but at the final hour, at the very last minute, but not after years of suffering and scars that remain. For some however, that intervention never comes.

Off and on over the course of the years, I would ponder why I had to go through so much pain and why so many prayers went unanswered. Only a few months ago I was pondering this again and a very simple thought came into my mind, "You're still here." It may seem like a little thing, but this brought an incredible amount of closure to me. I thought of how dark life once was and how hopeless everything seemed. But now I have a wonderful life and have seen so much good and light. I have a beautiful family, and although I could easily complain about this or that, the knowledge and hope I have has lifted me to a place of incredible peace that I never thought possible.

I realized something then about God. He knows us intimately well, what will break us and what won't. It appears he intervenes at the point where justice would be violated if he did not, and this seems to have something to do with why he doesn't intervene in certain cases. I think that speaks to the strength of the individual and their ability to endure even the most horrific of things, even until death. He sees and understands a much larger picture and the inner world of each human soul in ways we cannot even understand. We only see the outside, the pain, and the suffering, the cracks in the brittle outer vessel, but he sees the powerful soul he knew for eons before this earth was created. You see, we also only see the outward interventions, but do we ever consider the untold inner interventions that may occur far more in the lives of those that don't receive outward interventions? We straddle two worlds, remember, and we typically only focus on the one we most readily think we understand, hence the paradoxes.

You see a homeless man on the street and you say, "Look at all these people with their wealth and this poor man wandering homeless on the streets, it's injustice!" Yet, I spoke to such a man named David who had family begging to take him in, a pastor who was willing to pay for a ticket for him to travel home any time he wanted, and people who provided him with food, and supplies to help him. But he refused to accept any help. So in reality, there was justice and mercy but if you didn't see both sides you would assume the worst. Part of the problem is that the worst side is the most easy to identify, it is the most visible and closest to the surface.

This reality is the same for all of us. We see, we judge, and we refuse to be comforted. We think we see.

I have summarized years of personal experiences and so many accounts that you may also be familiar with in the scriptures. You really need to ponder the vast chasm between our short years of experience and incredible understanding and overall perspective of a being who can create worlds and has vision and understanding that makes ours look like a ripple in the ocean.

But how to you explain that to a child who has been raped or a person who has been horribly mutilated and disfigured in a fire? How do you tell that to a grieving parent? You don't, and you can't. No explanation, no matter how much sense it makes or no matter how clear or wonderful the bigger picture brings no comfort to you when in that moment of pain.

You need a friend, someone to cry with you and be there with you through it. We need people to mourn with those that mourn and who are willing to comfort those that stand in need of comfort. See we miss what is really important, we don't trust in the solutions that are plain before us but sound so simple we toss them aside. We are not here to comprehend the big picture, we are here to TRUST. We are here to help the one, not to be like Alma and exclaim "O, that I were an angel..." God will deal with justice and mercy, it's our job to seek out the lost and comfort the one.

There is more but it is more technical and theoretical. Think about intelligences, The Book of Mormon says the dust of the earth obeys, therefore it must remember. Our bodies are dust and "Down among his nerve cells and fibers the molecules are counting it, registering and storing it up... (Pres. David O. McKay, quoting William James in Conference Report, April 1956, 7-8.) Every act, the darkest sin, to the great atonement, are all recorded in the dust of this earth. D&C 130:6-8 states: "The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim." Think of what this earth will become to us, what we are inheriting. Think about our modern technology that allows people all over the world to share knowledge instantly. What will happen when this exalted world joins the others? All things below testify of things above, there are principles that work on many levels. What is the exalted version of a network?

D&C 122:7 states:

"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."

That's the best I can do, I don't understand it all, but I've seen enough to trust God.

[Older/wiser?]

I also thru life's experiences understand of what you speak, and sometimes it appears justice might be violated, He may not intervene, will you go the full length as the Savior did to save those souls who would be lost if justice comes into play. Alma 27 the most beloved people
Perished but in so doing saved those who did the murderous acts repented and were saved.
Are we not asked to go the distance to save those whom we can? Is this not in a small way
Stating we believe in our Savior , enough to do as He did . I fall short , but the one time I did not fail Him I received a balance on the scale I cannot deny. To mourn with those that mourn
I believe we will be brought to that , that it will come as we become converted to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but I think it will come as the " Saints" suffer and bow the knee and confess He is the Christ redeemer of all. So the coming years and personal experiences of suffering will if we allow it bring us to Him. We may be broken but I hear in my mind "the Lord loves broken things". I know of the perfection of His timing, and His Infinite Love.

[Joel]