Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

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samizdat
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Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by samizdat »

I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but here he was spot on:
Contrast the reaction of King Benjamin’s audience with modern expectations and sensibilities. We want to hear smooth things. We want our self-image enhanced. We want stories that tell us we are good people in a good place doing good things and getting better every day. We want to feel reassured. King Benjamin’s audience felt threatened, unnerved and dismayed. They were reduced to fearful trembling, instead of hurrahs for their greatness. A sermon like the one King Benjamin delivered would drive the audience out the doors today.

I don't agree with the premise he showed at the very last sentence, but he was spot on in that the natural man desires to hear stories about how they feel good. It is good to tremble at times, especially when you realize you can be doing things a LOT better.

Keep that in mind as you read the reaction recorded in Mosiah, Chapter 4: “when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them. And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.” (Mosiah 4: 1-2.)

Fear had come upon them! They viewed themselves in their carnal state! They thought themselves less than the dust of the earth! They cried out for mercy! Interesting indeed!

Yep. Get your lives in order. That was what the message of King Benjamin was.

No hymns were sung thanking God for a prophet-king to guide them. No hymns proclaiming that all is well, all is well. No praise to the man who shook their hearts and minds with fear. Instead, it was contrition and prayer for Christ’s atoning blood to remove their sins and purify their hearts.

Honestly this is where Denver Snuffer at times turns me off. This is easily seen by some as a mockery of the Church hymns. There was thankfulness for Benjamin, not so much in the hymnal aspect but in the aspect that they had a wise leader looking upon them. Their ultimate thanks were to Christ however and not to Benjamin.

We read this stuff but don’t recognize any contrast between ourselves and these earlier “saved” people. We think we’re like them. But we are not. We’re nothing like them in our faith, in our practices, in our humility and in our understanding of God’s plan of salvation. We are filled with pride and foolishness, leading one another about from vanity to trifles, like drunkards who vomit upon one another and then view the results as proof of our inspiration. (Isa. 28: 1-3.) We get angry at the idea we need repentance because we are not yet saved. Our anger is proof we have fallen for Satan's lies. (2 Ne. 28: 20.)

This seems to be more of a problem where the Church is "strong". Where the Church is "weaker", I have seen people like unto the people of King Benjamin. The error here is not so much in the Church but in the complacency of its members, and when the leaders are infected too, that bodes very bad for the progression of the ward or stake.

Joseph Smith decried the Saints of his day (with a lamentation that has increased in relevance in our own) with these words: “How vain and trifling have been our spirits, our conferences, our councils, our meetings, our private as well as public conversations—too low, too mean, too vulgar, too condescending for the dignified characters of the called and chosen of God. None but fools will trifle with the souls of men.” (TPJS, p.137.) If sermons were trifling in his day in ours they are vaccuous. This thin gruel cannot sustain us. Oddly, we are supposed to be constantly reminded of the need for spiritual nourishment to sustain life.

Up to here he did very well. There is thin gruel compared with some of the meatier matters of the Gospel. We have the words of the Prophets to study, we have the scriptures. Then again I could understand the Nephites' frustration with not receiving more: IT IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SEEK MORE LIGHT FROM ON HIGH. Until today's members start to seek for light from on high they will not receive more of these things, but will be taken away even all that they have.

When you participate in religious conventions dominated by theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation it is a substitute for the Spirit, not the Spirit itself. Theatrics are never an adequate substitute for Gospel substance. Everything money can buy can make an impressive show, but in the end it is just another example of how you can buy anything in this world for money. Being heart-warmed is not the same thing as being brought to repentance.

This is where I disagree completely where there is an obvious mocking of General Conference. I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort. He improves though where he says that theatrics cannot substitute the Gospel from that point forward.

You will lose your soul if you seek foolishness instead of truth. Like King Benjamin’s audience, you should be afraid. Your only hope is through Christ.
Here he is correct.

I don't see Snuffer as a bad guy here, and on most things he is on the way to happiness. But there are obviously some sticking points. The people DID thank King Benjamin. That is evident in the scriptures. But he is right where he says that it is Christ who we should thank the most, not any man, woman, or child...

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TZONE
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by TZONE »

What did King Benjamin say when they TRIED to thank him?
19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
You see, he refused to accept their thanks. He refused to be brought into the spot light, and directed it ALL to Jesus Christ. So here we have King Benjamins example where our praise should be directed. The Lord used this to teach us that we should not give any praise to man.

In fact he goes on after they give praise to Him and makes this declaration,
Vs 21.. I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
Compared to vs 19, "if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!:

He was basically saying look I am still an unprofitable servant, don't thank me. There is only one Good, God.

AGain verse 20
you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you
Whenever you bring praise or thanks to man, you are not giving your WHOLE soul to God.

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marc
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by marc »

Excellent topic. King Benjamin was not only their king, anointed after their manner of kings (read Jacob), but a prophet as well. Typically, prophets deliver messages of glad tidings or messages of warnings. King Benjamin minced no words.

As for what Denver said about theatrics, etc., general conference doesn't come to mind, but what does are the many HeartSell products that have been released in the media. I have personally experienced that emotional "manipulation" and can contrast it with the power of the Holy Ghost--that consuming fire, which not only has filled my entire being, but the entire room as well. There is a stark contrast.

There is SO much more to dissect in King Benjamin's entire address, two of which teach us to put off the natural man and also retaining a remission of our sins by imparting of our substance to those who petition according to their "wants."

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Rose Garden
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Rose Garden »

I'm probably going to regret this, but . . .

The main problem I see with Denver's stuff is that everyone seems to think he is only referring to the church. It is much more comfortable to say, oh, yeah, that's totally how the church is, so glad I'm awake to it. But what is not comfortable is to realize that it's no better singing praises to Denver Snuffer than it is to the church leadership, even if you do it in a different way. It's no better being heart-warmed by Denver than it is the church leadership, even if it doesn't take light and expensive equipment to generate that heart warming. It's no less vulgar and trifling to talk of Denver than it is to talk of the church membership if that talk does not bring you to the point where you are so spiritually in tune that you could join with thousands of others in saying the exact same thing at the exact same time.

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marc
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by marc »

One can easily take Denver out of the equation by diving into the Book of Mormon. If you spend a substantial amount of time studying and pondering what Nephi taught, what King Benjamin taught, what Mormon and Moroni taught, and liken the history and doctrine to yourself, it won't take long at all to humble yourself to the dust. Believe me, I know. I was and am a perfect example of what Isaiah prophecied concerning not only the house of Israel as a whole, but the average Isrealite. We are, after all, of the same house, whether directly descended or adopted. We are still the Lord's covenant people. That should never carry any degree of relief, but instead should carry a tremendous sense of responsibility. We are, as a whole, falling for the same pitfalls as the ancient saints and the Nephite saints. We will suffer the same cleansing, too.

DrJay
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by DrJay »

The title of this thread is repulsive all by itself. I will put my hope in Jesus Christ, thank you. I hope that DS would also be offended.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Original_Intent »

As far as theatrics go, I will go out on a limb here where no one else in this thread has gone, it certainly does apply to General Conference.

Listen to the multiple talks and listen to the intonation, the polished delivery, the dramatic pause. these are talks that largely have been rehearsed multiple times and have been vetted and approved. These are talks that have been submitted to the Ensign for publication before they have been given.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a polished message that is practiced for optimal results. It has it's place, in my opinion. But it shouldn't be all there is. I want to hear a prophet's voice delivering a message as it is given to him in that very moment what he shall say. I don't believe we have had that for years, and has been quite minimal for decades.

Certainly the spirit can testify to the truth of a well-rehearsed speech. Too often we get anecdotal stories that are either amusing or serve only to highlight what a righteous person the speaker is and demonstrates what a good servant they are. This is well-described as theatrics, as well as the room being darkened with a pillar of light on the podium.

So unlike everyone else in this thread, I think the comment regarding theatrics was dead on and not offensive even if it was a reference to General Conference.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

By this simple test you may know.


Does he give you his word for money,


Yes or no?

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stillwater
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by stillwater »

DrJay wrote:The title of this thread is repulsive all by itself. I will put my hope in Jesus Christ, thank you. I hope that DS would also be offended.
The title of the blog post is "Your Only Hope".
The author was Denver Snuffer.
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/ ... -hope.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No offense need be taken.

That being said, it gave me pause at first also.

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stillwater
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by stillwater »

samizdat wrote: I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort.
I agree with Original Intent's post about general conference. I do think that is part of what DS was referencing. But there are much more fitting examples. Did you watch Elder Nelson's Christmas Devotional address? It was the very essence of everything Denver described: "theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation".
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear, I'm not finding fault with the message of that talk. But it is impossible to claim that Elder Nelson's method of presentation doesn't employ the strategies described in Snuffer's post.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

So that you may judge even more.


"eloquent orator" Isaiah 3:3



Yes or no?

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

So if these men are paid,


and are eloquent orators,


Yes or no?


You will know.


Jesus Christ and Enoch and Melchizedek were not paid nor were they eloquent orators but spoke plainly the truth.


Does this help anyone out there?
Last edited by Robert Sinclair on May 7th, 2014, 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by A Random Phrase »

DrJay wrote:The title of this thread is repulsive all by itself. I will put my hope in Jesus Christ, thank you. I hope that DS would also be offended.
It made me laugh. I had an image of a video stuck on a scene of Princess Leia sticking a card into an android over and over again, saying, "Obiwan, you are our only hope ... Obiwan, you are our only hope ... Obi...."


End of DS's post:" Your only hope is through Christ."
Last edited by A Random Phrase on May 7th, 2014, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dannyk
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Dannyk »

stillwater wrote:
samizdat wrote: I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort.
I agree with Original Intent's post about general conference. I do think that is part of what DS was referencing. But there are much more fitting examples. Did you watch Elder Nelson's Christmas Devotional address? It was the very essence of everything Denver described: "theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation".
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear, I'm not finding fault with the message of that talk. But it is impossible to claim that Elder Nelson's method of presentation doesn't employ the strategies described in Snuffer's post.
Agreed Bob! This was the exact thought that came to mind. That was one of my least favorite Christmas Devotionals that I can remember, primarily because I was so thrown off by exactly the theatrics that were on display during that talk of Elder Nelsons. Perhaps it just wasn't my cup of tea, and other people really loved it. But I thought it was down right creepy (and that has very little to do with what I think of Denver....I absolutely was turned off by the bland and boring voiceover they used for the God's voice, the whole thing felt creepy. If you're going to bother spending that much time and money producing something, I can't believe that it turned out that poorly.)

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Original_Intent
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Original_Intent »

stillwater wrote:
samizdat wrote: I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort.
I agree with Original Intent's post about general conference. I do think that is part of what DS was referencing. But there are much more fitting examples. Did you watch Elder Nelson's Christmas Devotional address? It was the very essence of everything Denver described: "theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation".
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear, I'm not finding fault with the message of that talk. But it is impossible to claim that Elder Nelson's method of presentation doesn't employ the strategies described in Snuffer's post.
Heh, the essence of our religion is "The Seven habits of highly effective __________"

I have been reading a lot on leadership and management as my company's CEO has a few hundred and has put them at our disposal to read.

It's all a rehash of Art of War, really, the hundreds of books published. And what I see in GC are men and women who exemplify the "leadership" mentality of Babylon, Covey style.

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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

All of you need to remember that these leaders of the house of Ephraim are your fellow brothers of this house. While many things are written against them of the prophets of old, you ought to consider as I have what if the Lord had placed me in that place. And if you knew I had an embarrassing moment yet to come of acknowledging that yes it is true we have not met with Jesus Christ face to face in secret meetings in the temple as he has hid his face from us as we now see why. And we now are willing to keep this law of God to be equal in our temporal things and are going to see that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints gets a deed and title to a home for their inheritance of a sanctuary for them to live and pray with their own family.
I want you to consider deeply the words of Jesus Christ to do unto your brother as you would have done to you. To love them and to be there for them when this time comes. To have faith that great good is about to happen as Moroni testified to Joseph Smith of the words of Joel that would soon be.

It would be well worth it to search diligently these words of Joel and come to know and understand every word he spoke.

These men shall return and they will bring his bride out of the closet for the bridegroom but they will do it according to the word of God.
They must join with the Jews upon this land to make things right with the laws of this land so they can just give title and deeds without penalty from our own government. They along with the Jews must change the laws to reflect the will of God. No one on this earth knows this better than the Jews who have remained faithful overall for thousands of years and to this day carry the law with them of inheritance from the Lord to Joshua 1:6. And with our second witness given in D&C 42:30 there can be no doubt as to the will of God.

Judah has the right as the first born of Israel to lead as is manifested in Zechariah 8:23. And they most certainly want to keep the United Order of the feast of tabernacles given unto them and will keep this ( Zechariah 14:16)

We most certainly do not want to remain in one house separate from them (Amos 6:9)

So everyone be wise and understanding and loving and come to know what is written in the "One Stick" held in your hands O house of Ephraim.



And be glad ye children of Zion, great good is about to happen soon. Moroni did not lie to Joseph Smith these things will surely be here soon.

Awake and be full of joy and have faith that the Scriptures are true and about to be fulfilled to your great happiness.

Finally Liberty and Justice for all in righteousness. That the New Jerusalem may be established upon this land as promised as all 12 tribes are here and there is plenty of room for us all, unlike Jerusalem in Israel where land is scarce and no room for all of us.

I am thankful for Brian who helped make it possible for me and for others on this sight who caused me to seek deep within the Scriptures to come to know these things.

Thank you- to all of you diligently seeking the truth,
Your friend and fellow brother,
Robert Sinclair ♡

P.S. and may we all continue to grow and come to know the truth of all things:)

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Jason
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Jason »

stillwater wrote:
samizdat wrote: I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort.
I agree with Original Intent's post about general conference. I do think that is part of what DS was referencing. But there are much more fitting examples. Did you watch Elder Nelson's Christmas Devotional address? It was the very essence of everything Denver described: "theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation".
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear, I'm not finding fault with the message of that talk. But it is impossible to claim that Elder Nelson's method of presentation doesn't employ the strategies described in Snuffer's post.
What Christmas devotional by anyone of whatever religion or background that doesn't include - theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation???

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

The fact remains for any.

Are they paid for their word?


And are they like unto eloquent orators without the spirit of God manifested from within?


This is a key given to you in the Scriptures given you.

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stillwater
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by stillwater »

Legion wrote:
stillwater wrote:
samizdat wrote: I see no theatrics, manipulation, or anything of the sort.
I agree with Original Intent's post about general conference. I do think that is part of what DS was referencing. But there are much more fitting examples. Did you watch Elder Nelson's Christmas Devotional address? It was the very essence of everything Denver described: "theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation".
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear, I'm not finding fault with the message of that talk. But it is impossible to claim that Elder Nelson's method of presentation doesn't employ the strategies described in Snuffer's post.
What Christmas devotional by anyone of whatever religion or background that doesn't include - theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation???
Did anyone suggest other religions don't do the same thing?

I think it's telling that the best argument in favor of Nelson's presentation is that it is not significantly more manipulative than the what you would find in any other brand of Christianity.

As a side note, I liked the theatrics, mood lighting, and musical manipulation at the downtown SLC cathedral MUCH more than I've ever enjoyed the sterile saccharine productions of our church.

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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Aussie »

In regards to the conference talks being rehearsed. Well imagine if the prophet or apostles just said what came to them straight from God or what they really felt needed to be addressed? People would leave, crying their eyes out, saying "This is to hard to bear and the truth has cut me to the core."

Just imagine what publicity it would bring to the rest of the world about our church. The fulfilling of the gentiles will come soon enough. The church will be persecuted and treated worse than the pioneers were treated in just a few short years. As a result we could be killed and be running for our lives in just a couple of years .

I suppose Heavenly Father does not want this to happen to prematurely before he has set his hand again and sent his servants out to his vineyard one last time to proclaim the restored Gospel.

As far as Denver Snuffer goes it seems to me that one of his main gripes is that plural marriage has been done away with. Although he proclaims to be against it. This seems to be one area that he feels that Joseph Smith brought in and later prophets have disregarded and therefore are leading the church astray?

He then talks about Enoch and says that Joseph was not able to do what Enoch did. However Joseph tried to do what Enoch did because the Law of Concecration is a higher law than the lower law of plural marriage. It seems that Snuffer wants plural marriage brought back and this may be because he is a pervert.

I believe that Denver Snuffer is one of those false prophets that are out in the desert that are talked about in the scriptures. He may not even realise himself that he has been taken by a spirit or spirits of devination. In the scriptures it talks about even the very elect could be deceived in the last days if were possible.

Satan is pulling one awesome snuff movie on all these followers of Snuffer. Unfortunately in a real snuff movie you loose your physical life. However by following the Snuff man you may loose your eternal soul.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Rose Garden »

How could anyone lose their eternal soul if they truly desire to come unto Christ, whether they are following Denver, Monson, or Brad Pitt to do it? Do you really think that the Lord is going to look at his precious children who are deceived and yet truly doing their best to worship him and just say, sucks for you! Is Christ mighty to save or not?

All that we are required to do is our best. That is all that was ever required. If we desire to come unto Christ, he will open our eyes. He has the power to do it. He has the desire to do it. He can do it.

SamFisher
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by SamFisher »

Aussie wrote:In regards to the conference talks being rehearsed. Well imagine if the prophet or apostles just said what came to them straight from God or what they really felt needed to be addressed? People would leave, crying their eyes out, saying "This is to hard to bear and the truth has cut me to the core."

Just imagine what publicity it would bring to the rest of the world about our church. The fulfilling of the gentiles will come soon enough. The church will be persecuted and treated worse than the pioneers were treated in just a few short years. As a result we could be killed and be running for our lives in just a couple of years .

I suppose Heavenly Father does not want this to happen to prematurely before he has set his hand again and sent his servants out to his vineyard one last time to proclaim the restored Gospel.

As far as Denver Snuffer goes it seems to me that one of his main gripes is that plural marriage has been done away with. Although he proclaims to be against it. This seems to be one area that he feels that Joseph Smith brought in and later prophets have disregarded and therefore are leading the church astray?

He then talks about Enoch and says that Joseph was not able to do what Enoch did. However Joseph tried to do what Enoch did because the Law of Concecration is a higher law than the lower law of plural marriage. It seems that Snuffer wants plural marriage brought back and this may be because he is a pervert.

I believe that Denver Snuffer is one of those false prophets that are out in the desert that are talked about in the scriptures. He may not even realise himself that he has been taken by a spirit or spirits of devination. In the scriptures it talks about even the very elect could be deceived in the last days if were possible.

Satan is pulling one awesome snuff movie on all these followers of Snuffer. Unfortunately in a real snuff movie you loose your physical life. However by following the Snuff man you may loose your eternal soul.
Good points. Globalization has cut the legs out from what can be said at conference. Globalization and localization tends to do that. You have to dumb things down and create unsexy, vanilla content that translates well and applies to everyone, to the lowest common denominator. ETB's talks were so great because he was talking to Americans and addressing our needs. I wish the GAs could stand up and say what the want, be themselves. Some of those conference talks are, literally, torture. I wish it didn't have to be that way, but that's the world we're in.

Speaking of Snuffer and potential false prophets, Joseph Smith said even the elect would be deceived. By "elect," he meant covenanted members (endowed members). It's frightening that a false prophet could be so clever as to lead devout members astray. I'm not sure Snuffer qualifies as a false prophet. Yes, fools who follow him go so far as to call him a prophet, but does DS call himself a prophet?

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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Once again if the man says for your money I will tell you the truth.



Go not after him.



Do not buy his books do not pay for his lectures, period.

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BMC
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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by BMC »

Sigh..... #-o

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Re: Denver Snuffer Your Only Hope

Post by Lion's Den »

Robert Sinclair wrote:Once again if the man says for your money I will tell you the truth.



Go not after him.



Do not buy his books do not pay for his lectures, period.
Deseret book$$.... Cash Cow for any and all wanna be prophets.

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