I would like to dedicate this thread to a scriptural understanding of faith. Legion has done a great job in referencing several scriptures in a discussion we've had on another thread. Rather than derail that thread any further, I thought it would be good to move it here.
Legion wrote:Agree to disagree. If you take those two verses of Moroni w/o the context of the rest of chapter 7...perhaps we could agree. In fact I would agree with you in the collective sense....as Moroni is speaking to the collective people. But in light of the rest of the chapter...and speaking of judging individual's faith...I take a different perspective. Again its in the works and the way people lead their lives. Also there is a purpose as well as a timing element to angelic visitations which Moroni covers in verses 22-26 & 29-31.
I guess we'll have to end up disagreeing, which is just fine. There is no compulsion in the gospel. I'd love to persuade you to see otherwise, but we are all free to believe as we wish. I seriously love how well you've referenced the scriptures. I think we see different things in them, but I love that you are using scriptures as a basis for your views.
As for Moroni speaking to everyone, yes I think he was speaking to everyone, meaning everyone needs to see those fruits of faith. Honestly, I think the Seventh Lecture is equally clear, as it says when we have faith we have visions, revelations, dreams as well as every necessary thing in order that the possessor of faith might obtain salvation. However, even more it said where faith is, so is the knowledge of God. And knowledge is described in that lecture as well as the scriptures as what the Brother of Jared had, meaning he saw Christ, he had perfect knowledge.
I love all of the other scriptures you posted and referenced. They're all great. I see different things in them likely, but I think they're all great. I think it comes down to understanding scriptural vocabulary. Such as charity being the pure love of Christ. Seriously, what exactly does that mean? Is it some incredibly powerful love that you just feel?
Honestly, if I hadn't been in the presence of Christ, I would have no idea. In other words, the vocabulary, such as charity describes Christ. But this word and description are only truly or completely understood when brought into His presence. It is then one can feel and know exactly what is being referenced. That is why if you are found possessed of charity, it will be well with you. This is not an earthly love. This love is only experienced in the presence of the Savior and deity. This is what happens when the veil is parted. I also believe that this is something that we receive as a gift from Him. We don't just work really hard to get it. He gives it to us based on the softness of our hearts.
All of those scriptures you speak of describe parting the veil and being brought into the presence of the Savior. This is what is meant by eternal life. To know God and to know Christ. Even the oath and covenant of the priesthood speak of being brought to this knowledge. It says specifically that if you turn away altogether, you will not receive forgiveness in this life or the next. Not ever receiving forgiveness is something only possible for a son of perdition. This is not something that many LDS people are capable of being.
Receiving the oath and covenant that is spoken of in D&C 84 is not something you necessarily receive at an LDS ordination. This is something far greater.
We have a great vocabulary in our church. Yet, I do not feel that we understand hardly any of it. It is not until we begin to part the veil and are taught by true messengers from the Father that we start to receive all that He has to offer us. We are taught how to do this in the temple.
Mormon's words are very very difficult. To take what he says at face value is very difficult because so few of us have received what he is speaking about. However, even Nephi said the truth can sometimes be hard to hear. Mormon's words are reinforced by very clear teachings in Lecture Seventh. That is why the Lectures are so valuable. They are a manual on how to part the veil. They describe what true faith brings. Faith brings "knowledge" of God. As it says in the Lectures, where faith is, so is the knowledge of God. Conversely if you have not faith, neither will you have the knowledge of God.
Works can certainly be present without faith, but the knowledge of God will always accompany faith, as it says so clearly in Lecture Seventh.