Faith

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Frederick
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Faith

Post by Frederick »

I've been doing a series of posts that involve gaining a scriptural understanding of various terms we frequently use in our church. I believe that for the most part we seriously misunderstand the terms we frequently use on nearly an every day basis. Terms like priesthood, and priesthood keys, or charity, hope, faith, etc...

I would like to dedicate this thread to a scriptural understanding of faith. Legion has done a great job in referencing several scriptures in a discussion we've had on another thread. Rather than derail that thread any further, I thought it would be good to move it here.
Legion wrote:Agree to disagree. If you take those two verses of Moroni w/o the context of the rest of chapter 7...perhaps we could agree. In fact I would agree with you in the collective sense....as Moroni is speaking to the collective people. But in light of the rest of the chapter...and speaking of judging individual's faith...I take a different perspective. Again its in the works and the way people lead their lives. Also there is a purpose as well as a timing element to angelic visitations which Moroni covers in verses 22-26 & 29-31.

I guess we'll have to end up disagreeing, which is just fine. There is no compulsion in the gospel. I'd love to persuade you to see otherwise, but we are all free to believe as we wish. I seriously love how well you've referenced the scriptures. I think we see different things in them, but I love that you are using scriptures as a basis for your views.

As for Moroni speaking to everyone, yes I think he was speaking to everyone, meaning everyone needs to see those fruits of faith. Honestly, I think the Seventh Lecture is equally clear, as it says when we have faith we have visions, revelations, dreams as well as every necessary thing in order that the possessor of faith might obtain salvation. However, even more it said where faith is, so is the knowledge of God. And knowledge is described in that lecture as well as the scriptures as what the Brother of Jared had, meaning he saw Christ, he had perfect knowledge.

I love all of the other scriptures you posted and referenced. They're all great. I see different things in them likely, but I think they're all great. I think it comes down to understanding scriptural vocabulary. Such as charity being the pure love of Christ. Seriously, what exactly does that mean? Is it some incredibly powerful love that you just feel?

Honestly, if I hadn't been in the presence of Christ, I would have no idea. In other words, the vocabulary, such as charity describes Christ. But this word and description are only truly or completely understood when brought into His presence. It is then one can feel and know exactly what is being referenced. That is why if you are found possessed of charity, it will be well with you. This is not an earthly love. This love is only experienced in the presence of the Savior and deity. This is what happens when the veil is parted. I also believe that this is something that we receive as a gift from Him. We don't just work really hard to get it. He gives it to us based on the softness of our hearts.

All of those scriptures you speak of describe parting the veil and being brought into the presence of the Savior. This is what is meant by eternal life. To know God and to know Christ. Even the oath and covenant of the priesthood speak of being brought to this knowledge. It says specifically that if you turn away altogether, you will not receive forgiveness in this life or the next. Not ever receiving forgiveness is something only possible for a son of perdition. This is not something that many LDS people are capable of being.

Receiving the oath and covenant that is spoken of in D&C 84 is not something you necessarily receive at an LDS ordination. This is something far greater.

We have a great vocabulary in our church. Yet, I do not feel that we understand hardly any of it. It is not until we begin to part the veil and are taught by true messengers from the Father that we start to receive all that He has to offer us. We are taught how to do this in the temple.

Mormon's words are very very difficult. To take what he says at face value is very difficult because so few of us have received what he is speaking about. However, even Nephi said the truth can sometimes be hard to hear. Mormon's words are reinforced by very clear teachings in Lecture Seventh. That is why the Lectures are so valuable. They are a manual on how to part the veil. They describe what true faith brings. Faith brings "knowledge" of God. As it says in the Lectures, where faith is, so is the knowledge of God. Conversely if you have not faith, neither will you have the knowledge of God.

Works can certainly be present without faith, but the knowledge of God will always accompany faith, as it says so clearly in Lecture Seventh.

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Simon
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Re: Faith

Post by Simon »

The lack of faith we all have is shown by the truth that God created the worlds by faith. Do we truely understand that power? Melchesidek received his priesthood because he had faith. Faith is a power that moves things, and I have no doubt that when miracles, visions, dreams and angels minestering to us are not present, we lack faith. See how powerful faith was in the instance of the brother of Jared. We can only rent the veil by that kind of faith. We can reach zion only with that kind of faith. Without it we cant please the Lord.

deep water
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Post by deep water »

The best way to understand Faith; what is is, how it works, how to gain it is by reading Orson Pratt's work, THE TRUE FAITH. This work is the precursor to the lectures on faith by JS. I have never read or understood any better thinking than what Orson gives us in that booklet. Enjoy!!!! END OF SUBJECT..

chase
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Re: Faith

Post by chase »

Read the Lectures

Frederick
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Re: Faith

Post by Frederick »

I realize I actually started this thread as a continuation of a previous conversation. For those new to this subject, I am going to post some relevant scriptures that were referenced in regards to the subject of faith.
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. (Moroni 7)
for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith...

For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

By their faith they could obtain heavenly visions, the ministering of angels, have knowledge of the spirits of just men made perfect, of the general assembly and church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven, of God the judge of all, of Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and become familiar with the third heavens, see and hear things which were not only unutterable, but were unlawful to utter.
(Lecture Seventh, "Lectures on Faith")

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Franktalk
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Re: Faith

Post by Franktalk »

Faith is knowing that we do not know everything yet knowing that there exist all knowledge. Faith is the trust we have in God to give us truth and knowledge when we are able to take it. Some truth is relative to where we are on the path. Faith comes from trust. The measure of faith is the measure of desire to know what we do not know today. In time faith turns into the ability to use the knowledge we acquire.

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Simon
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Post by Simon »

To me, faith is one of the powers within the gospel that take a little more effort to truely comprehend it... Even if we have understood much about it, there will still be aspects to is that we have to learn more about..

It is by faith that Moses passed the sea, by faith the walls of Jericho fell, by faith divers pophets subdued kingdoms, wrought rightousnesss, obtained promises, stopped the mout of lions. It was by faith that Abraham went to offer isaac, It was by faith that Nephi could free himselfe from being bound, It was by faith that the Liahona funtioned. By faith the priesthood is bestowed. By faith, worlds are created...

This leaves to ask, what can we do at all without faith?

To what extend to we really comprehend that power?

I think I am still far away from an perfect understanding..

reese
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Re: Faith

Post by reese »

Frederick wrote: I think it comes down to understanding scriptural vocabulary. Such as charity being the pure love of Christ. Seriously, what exactly does that mean? Is it some incredibly powerful love that you just feel?

Honestly, if I hadn't been in the presence of Christ, I would have no idea. In other words, the vocabulary, such as charity describes Christ. But this word and description are only truly or completely understood when brought into His presence. It is then one can feel and know exactly what is being referenced. That is why if you are found possessed of charity, it will be well with you. This is not an earthly love. This love is only experienced in the presence of the Savior and deity. This is what happens when the veil is parted. I also believe that this is something that we receive as a gift from Him. We don't just work really hard to get it. He gives it to us based on the softness of our hearts.


.
Fredrick thank you for this post. I agree with all of it. Speaking of charity specifically, I have long understood that charity has nothing to do with our love of anything or anyone and we have no ability to 'create it'. It is God's love for us. I appreciate what you have said here. I has added another dimension of understanding for me. Charity is only truly understood when we are brought into his presence, and that is being possessed of it.....having experienced it because we have experienced him.

Our misunderstanding of vocabulary is a huge stumbling block to be overcome. It makes me think of Laman and Lemuel and the struggles they had in letting go of false belief. Its hard.

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ajax
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Re: Faith

Post by ajax »

So when Mormon invites us to pray with all the energy of heart for charity, he is actually inviting us to pray to enter the presence Christ?

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Simon
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Re: Faith

Post by Simon »

reese wrote:
Frederick wrote: I think it comes down to understanding scriptural vocabulary. Such as charity being the pure love of Christ. Seriously, what exactly does that mean? Is it some incredibly powerful love that you just feel?

Honestly, if I hadn't been in the presence of Christ, I would have no idea. In other words, the vocabulary, such as charity describes Christ. But this word and description are only truly or completely understood when brought into His presence. It is then one can feel and know exactly what is being referenced. That is why if you are found possessed of charity, it will be well with you. This is not an earthly love. This love is only experienced in the presence of the Savior and deity. This is what happens when the veil is parted. I also believe that this is something that we receive as a gift from Him. We don't just work really hard to get it. He gives it to us based on the softness of our hearts.


.
Fredrick thank you for this post. I agree with all of it. Speaking of charity specifically, I have long understood that charity has nothing to do with our love of anything or anyone and we have no ability to 'create it'. It is God's love for us. I appreciate what you have said here. I has added another dimension of understanding for me. Charity is only truly understood when we are brought into his presence, and that is being possessed of it.....having experienced it because we have experienced him.

Our misunderstanding of vocabulary is a huge stumbling block to be overcome. It makes me think of Laman and Lemuel and the struggles they had in letting go of false belief. Its hard.
I agree with that so much. I believe that we can obtain charity only once we have experienced the love, and joy of being forgiven by the Lord himselfe. Once we have tastest from the tree of life, we want to share these sweet fruits with our fellowmen.. It is way different from what we consider as love...

Rand
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Re: Faith

Post by Rand »

Moro 10:20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.

Moro 7:46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

IF Charity only comes from a personal visit from the Savior, then one could not fall after such a visit, because Charity Never Faileth. If they fell from that place, their charity would cease to be and then charity would fail, so charity must not be the result of such a visit. Unless that visit can only come to one who cannot become perdition.

reese
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Re: Faith

Post by reese »

Rand wrote:Moro 10:20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.

Moro 7:46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

IF Charity only comes from a personal visit from the Savior, then one could not fall after such a visit, because Charity Never Faileth. If they fell from that place, their charity would cease to be and then charity would fail, so charity must not be the result of such a visit. Unless that visit can only come to one who cannot become perdition.
If someone fell from such a visit it would be them that fell, not necessarily charity. Because even after being given charity, it is still God's love for us not our love for something or someone, right? So when it says that charity never faileth, couldn't we read God never faileth. It sounds right that a fullness of charity would only come with receiving a fullness of God.

Rand
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Re: Faith

Post by Rand »

We can love with God's love. If we do that, we can have the Love of God, or Charity. So I think we can gain that love, but I don't think it is the consequence of an experience so much as a pattern of being, and as a result doing.

If I am not mistake, we do not receive a fulness of God even if we receive that visit that is talked so much of on this forum. A fulness will come in time, but the promise of the fulness can come now. At least this is my understanding. Thoughts?

reese
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Re: Faith

Post by reese »

Back to faith. Lecture seven says this:
....what are we to understand by a man's working by faith? We answer--we understand that when a man works by faith he works by mental exertion instead of physical force. It is by words, instead of exerting his physical powers, with which every being works when he works by faith.
....Faith, then, works by words; and with these its mightiest works have been, and will be, performed.
As Fredrick said above, it is possible to have works without faith. Much as we confuse our own works and acts with charity, are we also confusing our own works and acts as faith? According to LoF-7 the works of faith are only "physical" works after they have been accomplished by words and no physical exertion on our part. Moses parting the Red Sea, faith like mustard seed will move a mountain, or pluck up a tree and toss it into the sea, etc. are good examples of the kind of works faith does.

Have we redefined all of our "good works" into "works without faith".......

If it is taken further in the Lecture we are told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Because only with faith are we able to lay hold upon eternal life. So if we have redefined what faith actually is according to God, are we hedging up our eternal progression?

reese
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Re: Faith

Post by reese »

Rand wrote:We can love with God's love. If we do that, we can have the Love of God, or Charity. So I think we can gain that love, but I don't think it is the consequence of an experience so much as a pattern of being, and as a result doing.

If I am not mistake, we do not receive a fulness of God even if we receive that visit that is talked so much of on this forum. A fulness will come in time, but the promise of the fulness can come now. At least this is my understanding. Thoughts?
I think you are right, receiving the 2nd comforter is not receiving a fullness. I think that charity is like other things. It is received in doses until that perfect day, when a fullness of everything is received.
It must be possible for someone to "receive the gift of charity" and still fall. I think being in the presence of the Lord we would certainly experience charity for what it really is.......my thoughts.

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Simon
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Re: Faith

Post by Simon »

Rand wrote:Moro 10:20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.

Moro 7:46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

IF Charity only comes from a personal visit from the Savior, then one could not fall after such a visit, because Charity Never Faileth. If they fell from that place, their charity would cease to be and then charity would fail, so charity must not be the result of such a visit. Unless that visit can only come to one who cannot become perdition.
I agree here with reese... Those who posess charity will never fail if they retain that gift.. But charity is not forced upon a soul, and can be abandoned by choice. While in this world, all of us, even Christ were and are in danger to fall each single minute, otherwise free agency would not be in effect.

We can never fall when we build upon Christ.. But to build on Christ is not a one time act, but it is an constant following of him. We have to follow him until he has perfected us in all things

Rand
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Re: Faith

Post by Rand »

So the visit with the Savior comes from charity, not the other way around.

My point is that we will come into the presence of our Lord and our Redeemer, because we have carried out cross, finished the race, done all necessary to prove ourselves His in every way. And by virtue of our journey to Him, we will have gained the capacity to love the way He loved, or Charity. We will certainly experience His love in that visit, but I beleive that if we have't already acquired that gift of charity, we won't be in HIs presence in the first place.

Rand
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Re: Faith

Post by Rand »

reese wrote:
Rand wrote:We can love with God's love. If we do that, we can have the Love of God, or Charity. So I think we can gain that love, but I don't think it is the consequence of an experience so much as a pattern of being, and as a result doing.

If I am not mistake, we do not receive a fulness of God even if we receive that visit that is talked so much of on this forum. A fulness will come in time, but the promise of the fulness can come now. At least this is my understanding. Thoughts?
I think you are right, receiving the 2nd comforter is not receiving a fullness. I think that charity is like other things. It is received in doses until that perfect day, when a fullness of everything is received.
It must be possible for someone to "receive the gift of charity" and still fall. I think being in the presence of the Lord we would certainly experience charity for what it really is.......my thoughts.
We are one in this Reese. Thanks for your clarity in writing.

Frederick
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Re: Faith

Post by Frederick »

20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.
21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.
25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni, Chapter 10)
This is such an interesting chapter. Yet, I believe to fully understand it we have to rid ourselves of what we think these words mean. We cannot place our own definition of the terms used in this scripture and expect to understand what we are being taught.

Having a false idea or incorrect ideas of what these terms mean is unbelief. When speaking of faith, hope and charity, we are told that these accompany the power and gifts of God. These gifts are mentioned in the previous verses and support what Mormon said in Moroni 7, namely we will see mighty miracles and behold angels and ministering spirits, as well as having the gift of prophecy and other gifts.

All of these gifts deal with parting the veil. But most importantly note what it says in verse 25, none doeth good among you, no not one!!!! Because if there is anyone who doeth good, i.e. are endowed with the gifts mentioned in verses 9-20, then these gifts are received from God, or in other words it is God who does the work. Man does nothing. We are all beggars.

We learn this in Mosiah 4 and also Mosiah 2.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? (Mosiah, Chapter 4)

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. (Mosiah, Chapter 2)
We do nothing of our own. We are given all that we have. Charity is received as a gift. Honestly, I think the only thing we can do of our own is decide how much of the word of God we accept. We can choose to harden our hearts, or to allow His word to enter our hearts and we can choose to follow Him. We can choose to listen to the traditions of our fathers, or we can cast off our unbelief and learn directly from Him. Casting off our unbelief can be very difficult.

However, we can know if we are on the right track, it is witnessed by the power and gifts of God present in our life. The gifts mentioned in verses 9-20 can come severally, in other words, don't expect to only be able to receive one of them.

I can only speak from experience. I honestly cant say that I have a full or complete understanding of anything. Yet, when speaking of Charity, it is something I have only experienced in the presence of deity. It seemed to be nothing I possessed of my own, it covered me like a cloak. It was poured out upon me. It was nothing I earned, created, worked for.... It was a gift I received from Him.

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Simon
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Re: Faith

Post by Simon »

Rand wrote:So the visit with the Savior comes from charity, not the other way around.

My point is that we will come into the presence of our Lord and our Redeemer, because we have carried out cross, finished the race, done all necessary to prove ourselves His in every way. And by virtue of our journey to Him, we will have gained the capacity to love the way He loved, or Charity. We will certainly experience His love in that visit, but I beleive that if we have't already acquired that gift of charity, we won't be in HIs presence in the first place.

I believe once we sacrifice the Lord our inperfect love, he will make it complete. We can not obtain charity without being forgiven of our sins, for this will enable us to have compassion on the sins of others as the Lord has it. I think we never can have charity on our own, or merely by good works. But in all thngs can we only proove ourselves in imperfection, and only Christ can make us complete. Just as I understand it :)

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Re: Faith

Post by hyloglyph »

Hey guys, awesome thread :)

I was just talking about those verses from Moroni 7 with a friend. He has a pretty standard modern mormon view of things but like me, is very interested in learning more.
When I brought up those verses he read them and said yes, that sounds pretty plain...if miracles aren't happening and angels aren't appearing, then there is no faith. And without these things we cannot be saved.

So then he asked an awesome question...how do we get this kind of faith?
I honestly don't know for sure. I'm not there yet. It is a gift I think.
How do we get it?

reese
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Re: Faith

Post by reese »

hyloglyph wrote:Hey guys, awesome thread :)

I was just talking about those verses from Moroni 7 with a friend. He has a pretty standard modern mormon view of things but like me, is very interested in learning more.
When I brought up those verses he read them and said yes, that sounds pretty plain...if miracles aren't happening and angels aren't appearing, then there is no faith. And without these things we cannot be saved.

So then he asked an awesome question...how do we get this kind of faith?
I honestly don't know for sure. I'm not there yet. It is a gift I think.
How do we get it?
According to LoF there is only one way to acquire faith, it is through sacrifice.

hyloglyph
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Re: Faith

Post by hyloglyph »

reese wrote:
hyloglyph wrote:Hey guys, awesome thread :)

I was just talking about those verses from Moroni 7 with a friend. He has a pretty standard modern mormon view of things but like me, is very interested in learning more.
When I brought up those verses he read them and said yes, that sounds pretty plain...if miracles aren't happening and angels aren't appearing, then there is no faith. And without these things we cannot be saved.

So then he asked an awesome question...how do we get this kind of faith?
I honestly don't know for sure. I'm not there yet. It is a gift I think.
How do we get it?
According to LoF there is only one way to acquire faith, it is through sacrifice.
Yes. I read the part about the sacrifice of all things. How do you know what and how to sacrifice though if you dont have a strong line of communication between you and heaven open yet?

I mean, I think communicating with angels might precede giving up lands, money, family, reputation and life...or am I wrong?

Frederick
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Re: Faith

Post by Frederick »

hyloglyph wrote:
reese wrote:
hyloglyph wrote:Hey guys, awesome thread :)

I was just talking about those verses from Moroni 7 with a friend. He has a pretty standard modern mormon view of things but like me, is very interested in learning more.
When I brought up those verses he read them and said yes, that sounds pretty plain...if miracles aren't happening and angels aren't appearing, then there is no faith. And without these things we cannot be saved.

So then he asked an awesome question...how do we get this kind of faith?
I honestly don't know for sure. I'm not there yet. It is a gift I think.
How do we get it?
According to LoF there is only one way to acquire faith, it is through sacrifice.
Yes. I read the part about the sacrifice of all things. How do you know what and how to sacrifice though if you dont have a strong line of communication between you and heaven open yet?

I mean, I think communicating with angels might precede giving up lands, money, family, reputation and life...or am I wrong?
As with anything we read in the scriptures, we tend to place our own definitions on the words. When it comes to sacrificing all things, you will be taught by the Spirit what that means for you. The question of how you get there is a great question. I think one of our biggest stumbling blocks is our own heart. Is it capable of truly receiving the word of God?
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. ( Alma, Chapter 12)
What is in our heart is also key to being made perfect in Christ.
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. ( Moroni, Chapter 10)

God is love. Ungodliness is the opposite of love, fear, doubt, etc.... Rid your heart of fear and doubt, ask God to fill your heart with His love. Ask God to help you see and understand as He sees. Ask Him to help you understand the same things that the prophets who wrote the scriptures understood. That is what Nephi did, he asked to behold the same things his father saw and then he asked for the interpretation of Lehi's dream.

Ask, and it shall be given. Knock and it shall be opened unto you.

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ajax
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Re: Faith

Post by ajax »

hyloglyph wrote: Yes. I read the part about the sacrifice of all things. How do you know what and how to sacrifice though if you dont have a strong line of communication between you and heaven open yet?
I'm speaking personally here hylo. Think impressions to the mind. Think internal dialogue with God ala Snuffer's example in TSC.
“A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God [Mind of God, lec 5], will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God [Mind of God, lec 5] and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” - Joseph Smith
Ponder and pray on Lecture 6. Begin a dialogue. Ask questions. See what comes to mind.

Be believing that when ideas come, they come from God. This can be hard. It really is moving from unbelief to belief. Sometimes I still wonder.

When you believe you have been instructed from God, follow the instructions. Be aware that the adversary will ramp up his efforts. I am currently doing something I believe God has asked me to do over a period of time. During this same time temptations have increased. I haven't been perfect in resisting. Oftentimes I have failed. I know the adversary is trying to frustrate me.
I often feel like Nephi in 2 Nephi 4. I believe the Lord loves me and will forgive as I strive to push forward.

I hope that helps somewhat. I'm right with you. I have the same questions often. I am very new to this.

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