It's all over. Adieu

[Hannant]

Kgrigio, I truly appreciate your thoughts of support.
I had a bad night last night.
In my dream I was transported back to Brigham Youngs day. I was charged with a crime I didn't commit and was sentenced by him to death by knife, even though he knew I was innocent.
Its now in my dreams.
I am taking time off now. Work, church, forums.
My wife has booked us in to see a counsellor next week.
Thank you again for your support. I can empathize so much through this. Its like I'm completely ******up inside at the moment, screaming "I need help here" and I go see what everyone else is talking about here and so much of it is (with respects) the most inane, boring, pointless nonsense that I feel like I'm in an asylum come kindergarten.
Sigh. Will this end?
More faith, doubt your doubt, pray more, go to the temple. Get the answers in the next life.
My problem isnt lack of belief, its that everything, every single foundation my religious belief and identity was built on, just isn't true.
Again- with respects, its no "I don't know if this is the Lord's true church anymore", its "I now know that this isnt the Lord's one true church".
Millions have been here before me I have since learned, but I cannot begin to tell you how alone it feels.
From hero to zero in 2 weeks.
Wife, kids, callings. Someone threw a deck of cards up in the air and the Joker landed on me

[log]

I've been there, and done that. All of us are faced with the crisis of faith at some point.

If you want to leave and follow after your own will, you now have intellectual justification to do so. If you don't want to leave, but only want truth, and are willing to endure the discomfort until it arrives, it will be brought to you soon.

The choice to stay or leave rests with you.

[Hannant]

I've been there, and done that.

Was it doctrinally related, historicity related, or belief in God related?

[/quote]All of us are faced with the crisis of faith at some point.[/quote]


Are we? Are protestants faced with a crisis of faith?
I've said, I don't have a crisis of faith, my problem is with remaining a member of a church I no longer believe is gods one true church, and not damaging myself internally

If you want to leave and follow after your own will,

Thanks Log. I am sure you mean well, but this is classic tactic of mind control groups. You are avoiding the facts and the issues, replacing it with "after your own free will"- inferring that my "will" wants to go sin, have fun, be "the natural man"

This is not entirely about free will

[/quote] you now have intellectual justification to do so. [/quote]

No, you don't want to accept it do you. This has nothing to do with "intellectual" anything

Facts, are facts. And the facts I was sold, no longer stack up. And I ONLY go to LDS sources. I really resent this "mistakes were made but you need more faith hang in there it will come if you are patient" language. That just puts it back on me and that is unfair.

[/quote] If you don't want to leave, but only want truth, [/quote]

Again, I appreciate your care, and offering to help with perspective, but I don't know if I am getting much here anymore

[/quote] and are willing to endure the discomfort until it arrives, it will be brought to you soon.[/quote]

Ah, yes, I get it. Patience. Come to the conclusion you want and then tell people they have to be patience until it arrives. Again, "mistakes we made by members and some leaders". But if YOU leave YOU simply weren't patient enough. You are perpetuating guilt and victimisation

The choice to stay or leave rests with you.

Yes! For the last 3 weeks I've been struggling with this. I was about to write something such as how does that help. But I realise, yes, it does.

Yes, I can breakfree

I am in charge of my own destiny

Goodbye

[log]

I've been there, and done that.

Was it doctrinally related, historicity related, or belief in God related?

All three at once.

All of us are faced with the crisis of faith at some point.

Are we? Are protestants faced with a crisis of faith?

We, who at least at one point sought to be the disciples of Christ, who at least at one point sought the things of heaven - yes, we all have this crisis.

I've said, I don't have a crisis of faith, my problem is with remaining a member of a church I no longer believe is gods one true church, and not damaging myself internally

If you have decided, then do what you feel you need to, and be blessed.

If you want to leave and follow after your own will,

Thanks Log. I am sure you mean well, but this is classic tactic of mind control groups. You are avoiding the facts and the issues, replacing it with "after your own free will"- inferring that my "will" wants to go sin, have fun, be "the natural man"

This is not entirely about free will

I'm being very literal; there is no judgement in that. That is the point of the test: to see what you really want.

you now have intellectual justification to do so.

No, you don't want to accept it do you. This has nothing to do with "intellectual" anything

Facts, are facts. And the facts I was sold, no longer stack up. And I ONLY go to LDS sources. I really resent this "mistakes were made but you need more faith hang in there it will come if you are patient" language. That just puts it back on me and that is unfair.

Let me see if I can put this neutrally. There is always more to the situation than people present. You may indeed have been sold a list of goods by people who don't know more, really, than you do. There's a reason I don't listen to anyone. Even well-meaning people talk out their a$$.

If you don't want to leave, but only want truth,

Again, I appreciate your care, and offering to help with perspective, but I don't know if I am getting much here anymore

I'm really not trying to persuade you to go one way or the other.

and are willing to endure the discomfort until it arrives, it will be brought to you soon.

Ah, yes, I get it. Patience. Come to the conclusion you want and then tell people they have to be patience until it arrives. Again, "mistakes we made by members and some leaders". But if YOU leave YOU simply weren't patient enough. You are perpetuating guilt and victimisation

I speak from experience. Cognitive dissonance is painful. I overcame my test, having endured the pain for two years. You can, too, if you're seeking truth.

The choice to stay or leave rests with you.

Yes! For the last 3 weeks I've been struggling with this. I was about to write something such as how does that help. But I realise, yes, it does.

Yes, I can breakfree

I am in charge of my own destiny

Goodbye

Goodbye.

[Hannant]

We tried

Sigh

[log]

Tried what? The test is perfectly adapted to each one of us. What cut me to the core would not even register as a challenge to others. Likewise, your issue did not trouble me.

[Searching for Kolob]

Got faith?

[Bee Prepared]

A little shaken lately.
Does that mean...you can't sleep, have stomach in not, nausea, anger, inability to buy into/ participate in conversations you would normally dive into, uncertainty over relationship with spouse, wondering who god is now, feeling as though you were an idiot, feeling embarrassed because it seems everyone you know was able to see it but you couldn't, you hear phrases like "speaking ill of the lords anointed" and they mean something entirely different to you, you are afraid you will have an anxiety attack if you go to the temple again when they shut the doors and turn down the lights, you now reconsider all that stuff you had formerly put on the shelf, you get on the internet and look for a deprogramming counsellor, your best friends either don't understand you, so you cant talk to them, or they do understand you but have left the church and are not afraid to "let rip" about things you previously shelved.
You feel like you are cheating on your spouse, you secretly hope your son doesn't go on a mission, you delete your internet history so your spouse doesn't see you spend half the night on mormonthink web site. Going to church drives you nuts, you shake, you sweat, you can't focus or concentrate at work, you press refresh on your phone all day, you worry the work WiFi knows the web sites you visit, you discover there was 75% chance she was 13 and 25% chance she was 14, you discover family search web site has 33 wives, 10 of them married, 27 of them before Section 132 was released.
You worry your spouse could leave you.
And all that each, and every day.
That kind of shaken?
I don't know anything like that

Whoa! I am so sorry you are feeling so low. I can honestly say I have felt many of the things you are describing. I was " Alot" shaken several times in my life. One of the worst was after being divorced, and re-married, my husbands ex-wife didn't want their 3 children anymore. We took them in, giving us 6 children under the age of 8. I thought I could do it, but I started to un-ravel. Guess what? You don't really have an instinct for children that aren't yours, not like you do with your own. I cried myself to sleep everynight, knowing that no one was coming to pick them up. I washed clothing and cooked constantly. I hated my church job because it was " One more thing", I couldn't cope with. Eternal marriage, with this family? Not just no, but " Hell No".
One night after deciding I wanted a divorce, I prayed for help, a desperate last attempt. I had a dream after I finished crying and fitfully went to sleep. I pictured my sweet little daughter in a foster home wondering why her Mother and or, Father didn't want her. If I didn't stay, and help my husband raise these children, that could have been their fate.
For the first time, I stopped feeling sorry for myself. I got organized, I asked for help, and I decided it was sink or swim and I had to swim.
I swam, and I swam, for 17 years and I made it, with the help of My Heavenly Father. I came out of it emotionally mature, a stronger and better person. Ask for help, hang on, " SWIM", you can do it!

[Matthew.B]

Aussie, and his wife, and kids, have gone. Committed Christians, just no longer prepared to suspend disbelief and be untrue to themselves is the easiest way to sum up a long discussion. He can be found at another board that he followed his wife too. They say they have never been happier, which one would expect I guess.

So maybe time to shut this thread down, if Aussie is gone. He's the one who started this. Probably best to let it die.

Good luck with your journey, Hannat. Try to connect with the God who gave you life, and make the requisite sacrifice required to align yourself with His will. It's the only way out of the funk you're in now. God bless you.

[Hannant]

Matthew.
Didn't Christ make the sacrifice for us?
I understand your point. What I am trying to locate is desire, such that it is no longer sacrifice.
Someone suggested going to 10 different churches to get perspective, and to find one I enjoy, one where I feel like I "want" to go to.
Then its not a sacrifice, but a joy.
I have now lost that sense of joy.
Depending on how I feel each day, my senses range from confusion to desperation to anger and so on
I'd be lost in some respects if the moderators shut this thread down. It was good enough for you to offer your perspective.

[Hannant]

A little shaken lately.
Does that mean...you can't sleep, have stomach in not, nausea, anger, inability to buy into/ participate in conversations you would normally dive into, uncertainty over relationship with spouse, wondering who god is now, feeling as though you were an idiot, feeling embarrassed because it seems everyone you know was able to see it but you couldn't, you hear phrases like "speaking ill of the lords anointed" and they mean something entirely different to you, you are afraid you will have an anxiety attack if you go to the temple again when they shut the doors and turn down the lights, you now reconsider all that stuff you had formerly put on the shelf, you get on the internet and look for a deprogramming counsellor, your best friends either don't understand you, so you cant talk to them, or they do understand you but have left the church and are not afraid to "let rip" about things you previously shelved.
You feel like you are cheating on your spouse, you secretly hope your son doesn't go on a mission, you delete your internet history so your spouse doesn't see you spend half the night on mormonthink web site. Going to church drives you nuts, you shake, you sweat, you can't focus or concentrate at work, you press refresh on your phone all day, you worry the work WiFi knows the web sites you visit, you discover there was 75% chance she was 13 and 25% chance she was 14, you discover family search web site has 33 wives, 10 of them married, 27 of them before Section 132 was released.
You worry your spouse could leave you.
And all that each, and every day.
That kind of shaken?
I don't know anything like that

Whoa! I am so sorry you are feeling so low. I can honestly say I have felt many of the things you are describing. I was " Alot" shaken several times in my life. One of the worst was after being divorced, and re-married, my husbands ex-wife didn't want their 3 children anymore. We took them in, giving us 6 children under the age of 8. I thought I could do it, but I started to un-ravel. Guess what? You don't really have an instinct for children that aren't yours, not like you do with your own. I cried myself to sleep everynight, knowing that no one was coming to pick them up. I washed clothing and cooked constantly. I hated my church job because it was " One more thing", I couldn't cope with. Eternal marriage, with this family? Not just no, but " Hell No".
One night after deciding I wanted a divorce, I prayed for help, a desperate last attempt. I had a dream after I finished crying and fitfully went to sleep. I pictured my sweet little daughter in a foster home wondering why her Mother and or, Father didn't want her. If I didn't stay, and help my husband raise these children, that could have been their fate.
For the first time, I stopped feeling sorry for myself. I got organized, I asked for help, and I decided it was sink or swim and I had to swim.
I swam, and I swam, for 17 years and I made it, with the help of My Heavenly Father. I came out of it emotionally mature, a stronger and better person. Ask for help, hang on, " SWIM", you can do it!

BeeP, thank you for those comments and thoughts.
May I offer- how can it be a difficult thing taking in those children......? They were your husbands children.?

To truly understand how I feel, imagine you learn your wife has been having an affair, stayed with you for your money, the DNA tests prove these babies belong to other fathers.
Now, commit to staying in that relationship for the rest of your life.
But you have to sit in lessons about and give talks about your wonderful wife and children.
While she's out with her new lover.
Poor analogy, but that's where I'm at.

[Matthew.B]

Matthew.
Didn't Christ make the sacrifice for us?
I understand your point. What I am trying to locate is desire, such that it is no longer sacrifice.
Someone suggested going to 10 different churches to get perspective, and to find one I enjoy, one where I feel like I "want" to go to.
Then its not a sacrifice, but a joy.
I have now lost that sense of joy.
Depending on how I feel each day, my senses range from confusion to desperation to anger and so on
I'd be lost in some respects if the moderators shut this thread down. It was good enough for you to offer your perspective.

I have two questions for you, so that I can understand more fully where you're coming from. You may have already answered these, but I don't have time to read over every of the 800-plus posts on this thread-- if you have already answered these, you can direct me to your previous answers, or merely say you've already answered them if you don't want to discuss further.

1) Do you believe in the Bible and/or that Jesus Christ was the anointed Messiah, the Savior of all mankind?

2) Have you ever received a spiritual witness of any aspect of work that Joseph Smith completed-- be it the Book of Mormon, D&C, or his role as a prophet of God? (I'm leaving the modern church out of it)

Hope you're having a good day, Hannant. I guess if this thread is helping someone out, maybe it's best to leave it open for a little while longer.

[larsenb]

BeeP, thank you for those comments and thoughts.
May I offer- how can it be a difficult thing taking in those children......? They were your husbands children.?

To truly understand how I feel, imagine you learn your wife has been having an affair, stayed with you for your money, the DNA tests prove these babies belong to other fathers.
Now, commit to staying in that relationship for the rest of your life.
But you have to sit in lessons about and give talks about your wonderful wife and children.
While she's out with her new lover.
Poor analogy, but that's where I'm at.

Hmm . . . Tough place to be in, whether an analogy of your LDS Church/Gospel/Restoration engagement or what is actually going on with your wife.


I think sometimes you have to get back to your base line and stay there for a while, trying not to get strung out on: is it true, what is true, I don't believe it, I can't believe it, I can't go on with it, am I living a lie, is my life a lie, am I harming my wife, my children along with the incessant what if, what if, what if . . . In other words, all the worries and concerns jamming and occupying your mind.

What would such a baseline be: you were born, you exist, you breathe. How do you get there? One way is a meditative practice outlined by Pres. Uchdorf in a recent talk, which he describes as "staying in the middle". Also described by the word Presence, in the article below and which could be characterized as learning how to stay in the present, in the moment. Not getting hung up on items such as I've listed.

To paraphrase his talk, staying in the middle means to accept where you are in the in the middle of time (don’t fly off into worrying about this or that, just take care of the business you are engaged in at the moment). You can do a conscious, meditative exercise of accepting your place in the ‘middle of time’. You can also stay in the middle in a location sense. We are in the middle of an immense arena, spatially (if you believe in the space-time-continuum). Accept that you are in the middle of this arena, as well. Paradoxically, doing this helps you sense the reality of "non-localized space" that I think is a powerful and main characteristic of the eternal.

And of course there are other meditation techniques that help the process of staying in the present and with your baseline.

Here is the article that describes words encompassing baseline attitude adjustment:

10 Words Everyone Should Live By http://sorendreier.com/10-principles-to-live-by/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By Dr. Lawrence Rosen July 10, 2013 6:00 AM EDT

I’ve noticed a trend in wellness circles. Whether in my work with patients or in my yoga classes, I keep coming across the same words. On a given day, one might be the theme of a dharma talk or a TED Talk video someone mentioned to me. (Or, as was the case one strange morning, the same word was featured in both.) I am sure the universe is sending me messages, and the more I mention these to friends and colleagues, it seems like they're hearing the same words.

Which of these words resonates with you? My guess is some will at different times, but they're all good words to live by.

1. Presence: To be fully engaged in what you are doing right now. And right now. And right now. Mindfulness of the present moment is something we never fully attain 100% of the time, but it shouldn’t stop us from trying. Whatever tools you use to cultivate presence, make time to hone them. That is why we practice (not perfect) yoga and meditation.
2. Vulnerability: The willingness to be let others see you as you are. Vulnerability is to admit, “I am human. I am not perfect. I struggle, just like you.” No one has described vulnerability more effectively than Brene Brown. She teaches us that vulnerability is NOT weakness; in fact, being vulnerable is the most courageous thing we can be. Only when we are vulnerable can we truly connect and be open to intimacy.
3. Clarity: Transparency and lucidity of vision and thought. Not just an uber popular, kinda creepy song by Zedd. Clarity is that aha moment when everything is crystal clear and it all just makes sense. I find it comes to me when I’m not trying to achieve it, but allowing my mind to relax and focus. It’s one of those things that the harder you try to achieve it, the further away it may feel.
4. Equanimity: The evenness of mind to stand steady in the face of stress or challenge. I didn’t really “get” equanimity until last weekend, when a very wise friend told me it could best be explained by the phrase, “It’s all good.” The next day, I was meditating on this phrase at the beginning of a particularly challenging beach yoga session. (I know, boo-hoo, poor me.) Still, it was hot, with no wind, black flies biting. The teacher began by saying, “I was reading something this morning about equanimity…” Aha.
5. Gratitude: An intentional appreciation of what and who you have. An acceptance and explicit acknowledgment of what life brings you. Not taking anything for granted. As psychologist Robert Emmons notes, “Gratitude allows us to celebrate the present.”
6. Creativity: The use of your imagination to produce something—a thought, an object, really anything. Creativity implies a childlike playfulness, having the courage to make mistakes and keep pushing on. We desperately need more creativity in education and in the workplace. Never forget: you were once a child and some part of you always should be.
7. Authenticity: Walking the walk. The real you. The most honest “way of being.” To be authentic is to accept your self as is and offer that self to the world. The challenge is to learn to be OK with who you are and then… just be.
8. Passion: An incredibly intense and compelling desire for something (or someone) that is barely containable. And I think that’s the key. Your passion should be so palpable that it’s going to burst out of your eyeballs… but it just quite doesn’t. That’s what separates a crime of passion from the kind that makes you invest your whole being in the pursuit of your dreams and inspires others to follow you.
9. Compassion: Love and acceptance for another as if they were you. To treat them as you would want to be treated. To walk a mile in their shoes. To see through their eyes as if they are your own. Compassion for yourself is the first step in having compassion for others.
10. Love: Do I really have to explain this one? OK, just one quote: “We accept the love we think we deserve.” - Stephen Chbosky, The Perks of Being a Wallflower

[Bee Prepared]

A little shaken lately.
Does that mean...you can't sleep, have stomach in not, nausea, anger, inability to buy into/ participate in conversations you would normally dive into, uncertainty over relationship with spouse, wondering who god is now, feeling as though you were an idiot, feeling embarrassed because it seems everyone you know was able to see it but you couldn't, you hear phrases like "speaking ill of the lords anointed" and they mean something entirely different to you, you are afraid you will have an anxiety attack if you go to the temple again when they shut the doors and turn down the lights, you now reconsider all that stuff you had formerly put on the shelf, you get on the internet and look for a deprogramming counsellor, your best friends either don't understand you, so you cant talk to them, or they do understand you but have left the church and are not afraid to "let rip" about things you previously shelved.
You feel like you are cheating on your spouse, you secretly hope your son doesn't go on a mission, you delete your internet history so your spouse doesn't see you spend half the night on mormonthink web site. Going to church drives you nuts, you shake, you sweat, you can't focus or concentrate at work, you press refresh on your phone all day, you worry the work WiFi knows the web sites you visit, you discover there was 75% chance she was 13 and 25% chance she was 14, you discover family search web site has 33 wives, 10 of them married, 27 of them before Section 132 was released.
You worry your spouse could leave you.
And all that each, and every day.
That kind of shaken?
I don't know anything like that

Whoa! I am so sorry you are feeling so low. I can honestly say I have felt many of the things you are describing. I was " Alot" shaken several times in my life. One of the worst was after being divorced, and re-married, my husbands ex-wife didn't want their 3 children anymore. We took them in, giving us 6 children under the age of 8. I thought I could do it, but I started to un-ravel. Guess what? You don't really have an instinct for children that aren't yours, not like you do with your own. I cried myself to sleep everynight, knowing that no one was coming to pick them up. I washed clothing and cooked constantly. I hated my church job because it was " One more thing", I couldn't cope with. Eternal marriage, with this family? Not just no, but " Hell No".
One night after deciding I wanted a divorce, I prayed for help, a desperate last attempt. I had a dream after I finished crying and fitfully went to sleep. I pictured my sweet little daughter in a foster home wondering why her Mother and or, Father didn't want her. If I didn't stay, and help my husband raise these children, that could have been their fate.
For the first time, I stopped feeling sorry for myself. I got organized, I asked for help, and I decided it was sink or swim and I had to swim.
I swam, and I swam, for 17 years and I made it, with the help of My Heavenly Father. I came out of it emotionally mature, a stronger and better person. Ask for help, hang on, " SWIM", you can do it!

BeeP, thank you for those comments and thoughts.
May I offer- how can it be a difficult thing taking in those children......? They were your husbands children.?

To truly understand how I feel, imagine you learn your wife has been having an affair, stayed with you for your money, the DNA tests prove these babies belong to other fathers.
Now, commit to staying in that relationship for the rest of your life.
But you have to sit in lessons about and give talks about your wonderful wife and children.
While she's out with her new lover.
Poor analogy, but that's where I'm at.

HA! You obviously haven't raised other peoples children. It is without a doubt the hardest situation I have ever been put in. I'm also wondering if the problems you are presenting to us are true? You actually stay in that situation? That in itself is a sin. Sorry, but I don't understand. Help me.

[log]

He's saying that's how it feels to be a member of the Church, to him.

[freedomforall]

HA! You obviously haven't raised other peoples children. It is without a doubt the hardest situation I have ever been put in. I'm also wondering if the problems you are presenting to us are true? You actually stay in that situation? That in itself is a sin. Sorry, but I don't understand. Help me.

Is it true that children everywhere are God's spirit children? We are all brothers and sisters? Children can be loved and reared by loving adults. I believe children can sense when they're not wanted, and that alone can cause them to behave badly. Many years ago I watched a film. In it was said that with children, from birth to age ten is the crucial learning years where they learn and apply teachings. After that is when they spread their wings and start to be independent. Children need love and discipline, parents that say what they mean and do what they say. Threatening kids with empty promises is of no use. They catch on to that tactic very quickly. This is where parents lose control. Telling a kid he or she will be sent to their room for disobedience with no follow through only gives them reason to test the parents even further. Kids want to see how far they can push a parent. It's a matter of who runs the house, the parents...or the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bee Prepared]

HA! You obviously haven't raised other peoples children. It is without a doubt the hardest situation I have ever been put in. I'm also wondering if the problems you are presenting to us are true? You actually stay in that situation? That in itself is a sin. Sorry, but I don't understand. Help me.

Is it true that children everywhere are God's spirit children? We are all brothers and sisters? Children can be loved and reared by loving adults. I believe children can sense when they're not wanted, and that alone can cause them to behave badly. Many years ago I watched a film. In it was said that with children, from birth to age ten is the crucial learning years where they learn and apply teachings. After that is when they spread their wings and start to be independent. Children need love and discipline, parents that say what they mean and do what they say. Threatening kids with empty promises is of no use. They catch on to that tactic very quickly. This is where parents lose control. Telling a kid he or she will be sent to their room for disobedience with no follow through only gives them reason to test the parents even further. Kids want to see how far they can push a parent. It's a matter of who runs the house, the parents...or the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, its true that children everywhere are God's children. I don't think you can understand what I am saying until you've been there. The children who came to me were not wanted by their own Mother. They had trust issues, behavior problems, learning problems, etc.
I was put into the situation to rectify these problems, a challenge I met, and did a dang good job, if I do say so myself.

[drjme]

To truly understand how I feel, imagine you learn your wife has been having an affair, stayed with you for your money, the DNA tests prove these babies belong to other fathers.
Now, commit to staying in that relationship for the rest of your life.
But you have to sit in lessons about and give talks about your wonderful wife and children.
While she's out with her new lover.
Poor analogy, but that's where I'm at.

Christ does not cleave apart that which is cleaved together in Him.
If you are both focused on Him and each other, then these trials of faith, if we should call them that, there should be no division. unless we let something else come between and cause division, whether that be religion, a church, or fear or insecurity.

That doesn't mean its a walk in the park, but it means you both have the focal points of assured guidance towards Him. Christ asks us to follow Him. the suggestion is that in our lives He is always moving. sometimes we can get to a point in our lives where we think 'I've made it, I've found Him! finally!', and we hang around in the same spot while He moves on, Yet we don't follow and then wonder why there is an absence of the presence in our lives. We then need to pursue, wait and watch for Him to move again, and we He does we move quickly to follow and stay close. We all yearn for that presence. Sometimes we have to move out of the place we've always been to find it.

[freedomforall]

HA! You obviously haven't raised other peoples children. It is without a doubt the hardest situation I have ever been put in. I'm also wondering if the problems you are presenting to us are true? You actually stay in that situation? That in itself is a sin. Sorry, but I don't understand. Help me.

Is it true that children everywhere are God's spirit children? We are all brothers and sisters? Children can be loved and reared by loving adults. I believe children can sense when they're not wanted, and that alone can cause them to behave badly. Many years ago I watched a film. In it was said that with children, from birth to age ten is the crucial learning years where they learn and apply teachings. After that is when they spread their wings and start to be independent. Children need love and discipline, parents that say what they mean and do what they say. Threatening kids with empty promises is of no use. They catch on to that tactic very quickly. This is where parents lose control. Telling a kid he or she will be sent to their room for disobedience with no follow through only gives them reason to test the parents even further. Kids want to see how far they can push a parent. It's a matter of who runs the house, the parents...or the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, its true that children everywhere are God's children. I don't think you can understand what I am saying until you've been there. The children who came to me were not wanted by their own Mother. They had trust issues, behavior problems, learning problems, etc.
I was put into the situation to rectify these problems, a challenge I met, and did a dang good job, if I do say so myself.

Sorry. I meant no offense. I'm sure you have done your best. God bless.

[wtrdog]

I might go to a synagogue. At least you get honest discussion.

this ain't a forum, its not even a campfire with smores and warm milk.

its embarrassing

Epic. I've been watching this forum from afar for a while, inspired to comment by this thread. I sympathize with Auzzie. This is an issue I'm still in the process of studying. So no conclusions yet, but it is rather shocking.

1) This is a research issue on my part, but I am going to read all of these books. The fact in of itself that a lot of common words and phrases exist doesn't necessarily mean a fraud. JS very well could have read all these books and that's where he got this vocabulary. The nature of translating something is such though that the translator rewords things in his/her own way. Words simply convey feelings. They paint mental pictures. No two translators will phrase something the same way. It's perfectly reasonable for JS to borrow phrases that he's familiar with. If he's a less educated person, this would be even moreso as he wouldn't be able to convey an idea any better than they way he heard it elsewhere. The question to me is whether the actual narrative of the BOM, the concepts contain within, etc., clearly come from these other texts. Not just some parallels from the era either, but real intellectual plagiarization.

2) The other thing that doesn't make sense is all the history surrounding the BOM. You say JS made it up. We need to finish the analysis of #1 before really getting into this. But ok, even with source material in hand to help with the wording, the BOM was still a very advanced task. Not just advanced but exhaustive. Nobody saw him writing the book, editing it, correcting mistakes, making different parts of the book match up. Writing and editing a book is an exhaustive process. So he did it in secret and nobody noticed? And then what was the deal with the scribes? So in addition to writing the book in secret, was he also memorizing the pages and dictating them? That seems a rather hard task in of itself, even if someone was handing you the material. I just find it really hard to believe JS could have done this by himself. I find it an impossible task. So that means he had to have help. Ok, from who? So were they all in on it, like Harris and Cowdery? Well if so, why did they never deny their witness of the BOM later? Why did they never come out and say it was a fraud the whole time? Nobody who was in a position to know whether it was a fraud ever said anything like this. Ever. And not only that, but these people sold their farms and trekked across the country. People were dying. JS martyred himself. How come nowhere during any of this nobody popped up and said, "ok, maybe we've taken this whole thing a bit too far." If JS wasn't a real prophet, did he somehow delude himself into thinking he was? And to what benefit? He had a hard life while he was alive, and then died abruptly. And he had plenty of close calls before actually getting killed to warn him away. Mormon Battalion and all that. What in the world was all that for? The countless spiritual experiences and miracles people witnessed, not just leaders, but lay members, was all that made up?

I see no evidence for a group conspiracy. But I also see no evidence JS could have done it alone. But I also recognize the legitimacy of the points you raise. On the surface, from what I've seen, it seem hard to believe there is no relationship.

[wtrdog]

No.
Its around 30%.
And we are not growing
We have completely missed Africa. We have no chance there any more.
Asia just won't.

http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest. ... c162146563" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm impressed you are familiar with this book. I've been a fan of this site for years. This book is also available in PDF form for free. And you can also find it on Amazon for a hard copy.

http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a very pro LDS source. The church also uses the Cumorah Foundation for many of it's own stats. I've seen Cumorah Material on the church web site before under a different name. Our missionary work is in a horrible state. This stuff will hit you like a bucket of cold water. Very different from the stereotypical perception about fastest growing church and all that. There is a lot we can do better. That said though, it's also not fair to take the conclusions too far. Churches can't be compared directly. We could do everything right and people may still reject us because that's simply the nature of the modern world. Our church is a lot more work than most others. Also, the stats of other churches can be misleading. The process for joining some of these other churches isn't much work. Often you just show up and they start counting you. There are a lot of facets to this discussion. But I agree, our missionary work needs an overhaul. We have the right idea to focus on member missionary work, but the way it's approached is counter productive. Missionaries aren't trained how to do this work effectively. To them member work means guilt tripping members into handing over names of people to teach. And when they do that not only does it not work, but it hurts the work in the area long term. Members get turned off to doing missionary work, etc. Anyway, a separate subject. Church is still growing, and growing faster than a lot of churches, but not as fast as some. JWs and 7th day adventists both have us significantly outpaced right now.

[wtrdog]

The proclamation on the family.
Was that a revelation.

When asked by his son in law about that he said "that, oh that was (insert name of "just" an apostle's) idea.

Wasn't the word of wisdom Emma's idea?

Reference for this?

[wtrdog]

I formally complain -- again -- about the use of the Lord's name in vain and the belittling of another forum member. These actions are strictly against the forum rules. This is the third time I've complained about these same issues IN THIS THREAD alone iirc, by the same fellow Gone Fishing = AussieOi. There has been little or no response from the moderators to me and clearly no resolution.

rofl

[Thinker]

No.
Its around 30%.
And we are not growing
We have completely missed Africa. We have no chance there any more.
Asia just won't.

http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest. ... c162146563" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm impressed you are familiar with this book. I've been a fan of this site for years. This book is also available in PDF form for free. And you can also find it on Amazon for a hard copy.

http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a very pro LDS source. The church also uses the Cumorah Foundation for many of it's own stats. I've seen Cumorah Material on the church web site before under a different name. Our missionary work is in a horrible state. This stuff will hit you like a bucket of cold water. Very different from the stereotypical perception about fastest growing church and all that. There is a lot we can do better. That said though, it's also not fair to take the conclusions too far. Churches can't be compared directly. We could do everything right and people may still reject us because that's simply the nature of the modern world. Our church is a lot more work than most others. Also, the stats of other churches can be misleading. The process for joining some of these other churches isn't much work. Often you just show up and they start counting you. There are a lot of facets to this discussion. But I agree, our missionary work needs an overhaul. We have the right idea to focus on member missionary work, but the way it's approached is counter productive. Missionaries aren't trained how to do this work effectively. To them member work means guilt tripping members into handing over names of people to teach. And when they do that not only does it not work, but it hurts the work in the area long term. Members get turned off to doing missionary work, etc. Anyway, a separate subject. Church is still growing, and growing faster than a lot of churches, but not as fast as some. JWs and 7th day adventists both have us significantly outpaced right now.

The other day, on one of the BYU channels, there was a documentary about inter-faith marriage. A man said (paraphrasing), "Spirituality is like a banana, and religion - the peel. The problem is that many have discarded the banana and cling to the peel."

Of all churches, I happen to feel that the LDS church is the best practical application of spirituality, however, it is still very lacking, mostly because of the focus on the rituals/letter of the law, instead of the spirit. It seems to be run more like a multi-investment corporation, than a spiritual practice. Jesus rarely showed hostility, except when people were using God/religion/temple to make money.

Missionary work should be more focused on humanitarian efforts, which Jesus taught, but the focus is disrespecting others' religions in favor of "converting" them to ours, (which makes Article of Faith 11 in vain). There are almost 1 billion (about 1 in 7) people who are chronically hungry, according to the world health organization. It saddens me that 2 very important scriptures have been purposefully left out of church curriculum and bible indexes (in paper books) - Deut 14:28-29 which states that 1/3 of tithes are to be for those in need... and Matthew 22:40 that explains the 2 greatest commandments are to love God and love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the laws and the prophets."

Still, there is no perfect person, and there is no perfect group of people, including our church and the doctrine written by imperfect people. There are pearls of wisdom and goodness, but sometimes, "If you want to get a diamond out of the dumpster, you have to get dirty."

[jbalm]

The proclamation on the family.
Was that a revelation.

When asked by his son in law about that he said "that, oh that was (insert name of "just" an apostle's) idea.

Wasn't the word of wisdom Emma's idea?

Reference for this?

Aussie hasn't been around for a while, unfortunately. I doubt you'll get a response from him.