HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

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ajax
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HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by ajax »

AussieOi has mentioned in more than a few posts HeartSell(tm). I didn't think much of it and then came accross this:
http://www.bonneville.com/?sid=582&nid=32" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Affecting Change by Reaching the Hearts and Minds of our Audiences

At Bonneville Communications, our ability to touch the hearts and minds of audiences makes us an essential resource for organizations with vital messages.

For more than 30 years, our creative professionals have designed public service and direct response messages for national nonprofit organizations such as the Huntsman Cancer Institute, Boy Scouts of America, National Hospice Foundation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Salvation Army.

Our unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of our audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. We call this uniquely powerful brand of creative "HeartSell"® - strategic emotional advertising that stimulates response.

Our people not only create effective messages; we get them out effectively. We maintain an ongoing public service relationship with more than 11,000 radio and TV stations and networks, and cable networks and systems in North America alone. We distribute public service and paid media campaigns directly from our offices in Salt Lake City.

We provide all pre-production, production, and post-production services, as well as state-of-the-art special effects and post-production facilities, closed captioning, electronic tagging, and video and audio duplication.

We are an advertising agency engaged in communications for quality life. Our people are driven by the belief that advertising can - and should - be a powerful, positive influence on the values and lives of people.

Visit us at Bonneville.com
Now the Prophet Joseph Smith stated
The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge...(TPJS pg. 149)
Howard W Hunter stated
“I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself.

“I have watched a great many of my brethren over the years and we have shared some rare and unspeakable spiritual experiences together. Those experiences have all been different, each special in its own way, and such sacred moments may or may not be accompanied by tears. Very often they are, but sometimes they are accompanied by total silence. Other times they are accompanied by joy. Always they are accompanied by a great manifestation of the truth, of revelation to the heart. …

“Listen for the truth, hearken to the doctrine, and let the manifestation of the spirit come as it may in all of its many and varied forms. Stay with solid principles; teach from a pure heart. Then the Spirit will penetrate your mind and heart and every mind and heart of your students” (Eternal Investments [address to religious educators, 10 Feb. 1989]
and finally Denver Snuffer wrote this post in 2011:
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... pirit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Guidance from the Spirit
I've been reflecting on a commonly held belief concerning the Holy Ghost. Among Latter-day Saints the assertion is widely believed that the Holy Ghost will always leave a "good feeling" as the evidence of a message coming from God. This is in contrast with Joseph Smith's correct description of the Holy Ghost as delivering "intelligence" or "sudden insight" or, to use scriptural language, "light and truth." The feelings which follow an authentic encounter with the Holy Ghost can be anything from fear and dread to joy and rejoicing. Our emotional reaction to the message can vary depending upon the information we've been given. But "feeling good" about something is separate from the Holy Ghost.

When the message from God calls to repentance, the reaction can be best described as anger, or distress, or fear; but is not likely to be described as leaving a "good feeling." The message of repentance always requires change. It will always confront the error and require you to alter what you are doing.

I have noticed some reactions to what I've written measure what has been written against the standard of a "good feeling" and, as a result, some have concluded I'm not worth reading. I suppose against that standard Abinadi would have been rejected. Samuel the Lamanite, too. John the Baptist, Elijah, Christ, Peter, Paul, Joseph Smith, Noah, Enoch, John the Beloved, as well. Certainly Nephi, Jacob, Alma, Mormon and Moroni. In fact, I can't think of a single authentic message which did not include as its most important content information which violates the "feeling good" standard. I think care should be taken when a standard gets employed. Use a false standard and you risk reaching a false result.

This is one of the criticisms made by Grant Palmer in his Insider's book. He took aim at a false notion ("feeling good" means the Holy Ghost) and then leveled criticism against the false notion. Though a lifelong employee of the Church Education System, he was ignorant of the correct standard and lost his faith in the Holy Ghost's ability to enlighten because of it. His criticism was justified, but not the standard. He, like many Latter-day Saints, confuses something which inspires with a witness from the Spirit. You can be inspired by music, movies, plays and thrilling speeches coming from unenlightened sources which bring no light and truth. You may be entertained, but you are not given greater light and truth or intelligence from such thrilling encounters.

The one thing I do know, and the truth I can proclaim is this: Truth will come through and confirm itself when measured against the standard of: 1) imparting truth and light, which is intelligence; and 2) whether the message leads to greater belief in, understanding of and testimony of Christ. These standards do not involve "feeling good." They do, however, involve enlightenment and edification. Even if the result of gaining more light is to see yourself in a new way, requiring repentance, confession of sin, re-baptism, breaking your heart and becoming contrite in spirit. Anyone who can teach a message which will pass this standard, whether they are high or low, rich or poor, great or obscure, has given something of value.
What are your feelings, ahem, or I should say thoughts on this HeartSell(tm) approach that seems to permeate most if not all church media? It seems to be focusing on emotional reactions first and then conflating that into the effects of the Holy Ghost, which we know can be two different things.
Last edited by ajax on April 16th, 2013, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rob
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by Rob »

I thought Aussie was just waxing poetic. /:)

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TZONE
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by TZONE »

I had alot of nonmembers bring this up on my mission. But I still agree with the way its done. It maybe considered heartsell but whenever we tell the truth of anything spiritual (conversion story) it will always sound like a HeartSell. So either way if its true or not it will sound like it. I always feel touched (whether its the spirit or not I don't always know) from watching the commercials haha.

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Gad
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by Gad »

The spirit is the pure intelligence. How you react emotionally is something different altogether. When Samuel the Lamanite preached a true message some through the pure intelligence recognized the truth of his words, humbled themselves, and were baptized. Others felt the pure intelligence, rejected it,reacted in anger and shot arrows at him. Both sets were emotional reaction to the same thing.

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Rose Garden
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by Rose Garden »

Interesting, Gad. So Sammuel's message inspired penitence in some and anger in others. I would imagine it inspired joy in some, too, who were true followers of Jesus.

I discovered some time ago that when I have feelings of resentment, frustration, or anger towards an idea I was being taught, it was time to sit up and take notice. Usually those things were just what I needed to hear and the "natural man" in me was taking offense.

At one point in my spiritual journey, I had some intense experiences with emotions and spiritual communication. One day, I felt inspired to invite my husband to participate in a certain spiritual activity with me. He declined my invitation. I began to feel oppressively sorrowful over his rejection, which I didn't understand. Certainly I was disappointed that he had refused my offer, but it wasn't something that I would normally feel very upset over. The feeling was so oppressive, I went to the river to take a little time for myself. I pondered and prayed about the strange emotion I was feeling. As I thought about it, it occurred to me that I might be feeling the Lord's emotions over the situation. Immediately after the thought came to me, the feelings were lifted.

It wasn't long after this that I had some other experiences in which it was very important for me to understand that I was feeling the Lord's emotions in certain situations. I was able to make the right decisions as I understood that.

Emotions can relay some important spiritual messages, but first we need to understand how the Spirit communicates through them.

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Gad
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by Gad »

Called to Serve wrote:Interesting, Gad. So Sammuel's message inspired penitence in some and anger in others. I would imagine it inspired joy in some, too, who were true followers of Jesus.

I discovered some time ago that when I have feelings of resentment, frustration, or anger towards an idea I was being taught, it was time to sit up and take notice. Usually those things were just what I needed to hear and the "natural man" in me was taking offense.
Well stated!

deep water
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by deep water »

I have never read "The still small thought, or the still small idea". Is this something invented by man to exaggerate his righteousness. To explain something he thinks he has, but in reality he isn't qualified for? Like the phrase "I will write my law on the fleshy parts of your heart", means you will fill that warm filling they all say they get for a correct answer to a question.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

I believe that this is an incredible marketing program - just like any other marketing program. Marketing plays upon the emotions of the consumer and makes a product enticing. Satan can imitate many things and evoke emotions in a person, but he cannot come in the form of a dove - imitate the pure knowledge received via the Holy Ghost by the Spirit of the Lord. So although it seems on the surface to be a good thing to bring people to the church, HeartSell is doing nothing more than using the marketing techniques of Babylon. That is not to say that people will not have witnesses by the spirit if the Lord wants to use that opportunity to teach an individual, but a program like this cannot mimic the spirit. It is simply creative marketing - like persuading people through media to have an emotional response to a new car or toys for their kids.

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ajax
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by ajax »

Yes Jules, and the HeartSell is being conflated with and sold as the Holy Ghost.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

It is an abomination

it is a mockery of god, the holy ghost

it is satanic

to manipulate peoples (cue the music to song "all is well") emotions to make them confuse them for the holy ghost

and then sell that "formula " to corporations to go make profit????!!!!!

We had this discussion already, maybe a year ago. Can anyone search it, can't do on this phone

you thought I made that up, I don't make ANY of my posts up.

partake of their spoils.

HeartSell (TM) should be buried in the earth.

it will be one day, it is a false spirit, one from the deceiver. There is nothing true and light about it.

when those manipulated find out they will be confused and angry and doubt the sincerity.of their (supposed) spiritual experience

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TZONE
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by TZONE »

Uhh no.

I know the people over making half the church videos and they were not possessed when they made them but inspired. Most the videos are real videos.

Sorry.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

TZONE wrote:Uhh no.

I know the people over making half the church videos and they were not possessed when they made them but inspired. Most the videos are real videos.

Sorry.
Wow. You know them. Can I touch you?

Do me a favour, next time you see them let them know this arrogant holier than thou Australian thinks they are gutter swine for making a living from trying to fabricate spiritual and emotional reactions to faked visuals, related to the gospel.

tell them this guy, who says he himself doesn't lie straight at night, reckons theyd fit perfectly alongside him on his bed.

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drjme
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by drjme »

Heartsell is a false concept to ellicit an emotional response that then gets tagged as the confirmation of the spirit. This is the warm fuzzy I was talking about in another post that I used to think was the spirit, that I now realize is NOTHING like the spirit.
I've had a number of experiences that I've posted here that have changed me. While I do believe the body does manifest spiritual experiences, instead of them being a confirmation, they seem to me to be more of a guide to create questions for me to ask God.

there is a clear difference between a manifestation of the spirit and a feeling. for instance one I get, is an incredibly sick twisting in stomach, that has the potential to make me physically sick, It doesn't come in reaction to 'bad' people (like everyday nonbelievers), but instead, how can I describe this, bad spirits attached to people. a recent experience was a Christian friend came over to my home, I had been looking forward to seeing them, but as soon as they walked in my door, I felt a thick heavy presence come in with them, as soon as they sat down and started talking I started to get the knotting feeling and as they continued I started to feel sick. I wont share any details but, thought I'd just share how I believe we can rely on a 'manifestation of the spirit' to alert us, This wasn't a little small feeling, as these can be self created, but a reaction to a presence, that the HG wanted me to know about. When something is blatantly out there and overwhelming and unusual, it can be explored with God as I believe He manifests witnesses to people in different ways, and it doesn't leave you wondering. It is clear and powerful.

Heartsell is also using techniques of speaking instead of speaking with authority, by using intonation, pause for effect, speed of speech, eloquence of language, intermingled with funny quirky comments that make people giggle and go 'ah that makes me laugh and feel all warm and happy, it must be inspired!'
I don't mean to be judgmental but some talks I feel like someone is trying to coo me to sleep, or like a father would talk to a small child, like how a father tells a bedtime story. I don't really like it either I find it more manipulative than spoken with spiritual Authority.
Last edited by drjme on April 16th, 2013, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

Dude, have you take something off your shelf here? (I can follow what you are getting at) I'd hate to think_that_persons talk is brushed up by the consultants.

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drjme
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

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AussieOi wrote:Dude, have you take something off your shelf here? (I can follow what you are getting at) I'd hate to think_that_persons talk is brushed up by the consultants.
:D what do you mean? some peoples talks are awesome, the spirit witnesses powerfully, they may stumble, stutter, use words badly, and the speech doesn't flow, but they speak with authority. some others speak word perfect, with varied intonation, never stumbles or stutters, but it lacks in authority. that's is the difference in my view. It doesn't matter how one speaks or trying to go all heartsell by having emotional funny stories in it. It's about delivering it by the power of the spirit. Just deliver the meat by the spirit, heartsell is a distraction.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

It just sounded like you described every Pres Monson talk since 2010

sevenator
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by sevenator »

I really worry about some of you guys...

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

You should.
Now, tell me why

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drjme
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by drjme »

It just sounded like you described every Pres Monson talk since 2010
oh sorry, that wasn't my intention.

thanks Aussie......In case anyone is assuming from my previous comment.......

NO I don't get the sick twisty feeling when I listen to TSM speak.

sevenator
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by sevenator »

AussieOi wrote:You should.
Now, tell me why
For you particularly...has the saying "you catch more flies with honey" made it's way down under?

And I don't mean sugary sweetness for the purpose of obfuscating truth or misleading. Just more of a "lest he esteem thee to an enemy" sort of thing.

Just sayin'...

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ajax
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by ajax »

Why should the greatest message in the world need to be Heartsold?

The very messenger Himself was described in Isaiah 53:

"he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Truth cuts its own way.

sevenator
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by sevenator »

OK, I stepped in it...let me see if I can wipe it off...

I don't really disagree with the HeartSell thing being misguided. But you can't really rubber stamp the truths of the gospel and pound them into people's heads. I think they may be overstepping, but we sing hymns to invite the Spirit. How is it that speaking to people's softer side may not do the same thing? Not to imitate, but invite the Spirit...open someone's heart to it.

That said, I don't think it's the way I would go about things. It does seem a little bit programmey, if that's a word.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

sevenator wrote:
AussieOi wrote:You should.
Now, tell me why
For you particularly...has the saying "you catch more flies with honey" made it's way down under?

And I don't mean sugary sweetness for the purpose of obfuscating truth or misleading. Just more of a "lest he esteem thee to an enemy" sort of thing.

Just sayin'...
Yeah

I think it came in the franklin covey envelope with a HeartSell (TM) logo on it.

In chapter 1 ..."Lying (for Jesus) with integrity, for honor and truth....(of) good character. The Mormon (TM) way. 2013 revised updated edition.

sevenator
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by sevenator »

AussieOi wrote:
sevenator wrote:
AussieOi wrote:You should.
Now, tell me why
For you particularly...has the saying "you catch more flies with honey" made it's way down under?

And I don't mean sugary sweetness for the purpose of obfuscating truth or misleading. Just more of a "lest he esteem thee to an enemy" sort of thing.

Just sayin'...
Yeah

I think it came in the franklin covey envelope with a HeartSell (TM) logo on it.

In chapter 1 ..."Lying (for Jesus) with integrity, for honor and truth....(of) good character. The Mormon (TM) way. 2013 revised updated edition.
Yeah...I been watching you. Reading is fundamental. Here in the south, we'd just say "Bless your heart".

Carry on.
Last edited by sevenator on April 16th, 2013, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AussieOi
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Re: HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

Post by AussieOi »

sevenator wrote:OK, I stepped in it...let me see if I can wipe it off...

I don't really disagree with the HeartSell thing being misguided. But you can't really rubber stamp the truths of the gospel and pound them into people's heads. I think they may be overstepping, but we sing hymns to invite the Spirit. How is it that speaking to people's softer side may not do the same thing? Not to imitate, but invite the Spirit...open someone's heart to it.

That said, I don't think it's the way I would go about things. It does seem a little bit programmey, if that's a word.
Lucifer wanted to save us, his way.
He is an angel of light.
Gee, you don't think kids and investigators see this and utterly, utterly doubt EVERY single spiritual experience they may have had?

You don't think the antis can make.use of this to sow doubt?

This is so damaging, so bizarre, so evil, so deceptive, so counter productive.......that they trade mark it And sell it to bidders.

come on. Stop apologising Those of you who do. It's proof these employees are just businessmen in a job.

and this guy counting them as friends tells me a lot about himself

stuff honey, this deserves.vinegar. this is the kind of stuff that upon my house refers to

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