Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

[Seek the Truth]

he will say whatever the Lord wants him to say; regardless of whether people believe what he says or whom he has Identified himself to be!

Absolutely true. He fears no man, no woman, no government, no organization. Is this not the sign of a true prophet?

Another sign of a true prophet is that people hate him. They mock him. They are offended by him. They consider him apostate. The same things the people in Jesus' day considered Him.

True for Joseph Smith as well. (If we look to a more contemporary.)

Also internet trolls.

[A Random Phrase]

he will say whatever the Lord wants him to say; regardless of whether people believe what he says or whom he has Identified himself to be!

Absolutely true. He fears no man, no woman, no government, no organization. Is this not the sign of a true prophet?

Another sign of a true prophet is that people hate him. They mock him. They are offended by him. They consider him apostate. The same things the people in Jesus' day considered Him.

True for Joseph Smith as well. (If we look to a more contemporary.)

Absolutely.

[A Random Phrase]

I believe DS was conveying a revelation about the coming of the Lord. I have posted about this prophecy here:

No man knoweth the day of the Lord's return?
(Link also in my signature line.)

I also believe that was what he was doing. The words were a direct revelation. We can fight against them if we choose. God will never force us to listen to His servants. I believe that is why He chose one who was and is a "nobody".

If God had chosen an apostle or the president of the church, a majority of the people would have felt compelled to listen or be damned. The Lord, I believe, respects our freedom to choose more than that. Plus, the test wouldn't be so tough. It wouldn't test our hearts. It wouldn't cause people to humble themselves to see if the message was truly from God. It wouldn't cause people to be free to reject and persecute the messenger.

[SmallFarm]

If DS saw God I am very happy for him.

I will say that I do not believe that Cows are gods as do the hindu, so no I do not believe all things. That particular verse may have different meaning.

Hindus don't believe cows are gods. It's more like they are owned by their God.

[Thomas]

If DS saw God I am very happy for him.

I will say that I do not believe that Cows are gods as do the hindu, so no I do not believe all things. That particular verse may have different meaning.

Hindus don't believe cows are gods. It's more like they are owned by their God.

I think it more like reincarnated relatives and ancestors. They think that mouse, cow, rat, or ant might be their mother that died a few years ago.

[AGStacker]

God is not going to test and save His Church by sending a prophet outside His Church. Babylon will fall and the only thing left standing will be Zion. As Pres Lorenzo Snow was quoted as saying in the Priesthood/ReliefSociety manual, The Church of Jesus Christ is like a ship. You may not like the people onboard but dont abandon the ship. The Ship is a good ship. The captain of the ship is good, and the ship is headed to the right destination.

Sure, the people of the Church are not perfect. We won't be perfected until the end of the Millennium when Christ presents His work to the Father.

We need to be careful not to attempt to "steady the ark". The Lord will steady His own ship through His priesthood organization.

We don't need a John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness outside the organization of the Church. The Jews at the time of Christ 1. were apostate and 2. John had the birthright and priesthood authority as the son of the High Priest.

We need to keep our eye on the majority of the Brethren and stay with the ship. Remember, it will partly be the Priesthood organization of Zion that will help save us in the Last Days. If we do not flee to Zion we will be at war with our neighbor.

So, many Gentiles claim to have God in their hearts and just cannot submit to the idea of a living prophet that may tell them what they should or shouldn't do. "I live a good life and keep the commandments, but don't be tell me to do home teaching or pay tithing or have some calling".

All this "Davidic Servant", "One Mighty and Strong" talk begins by talking about the LDS Leadership "cult of personality". But isn't this exactly what it is setting up its adherents to follow after?

And how exactly will Zion be established?

[AGStacker]

Too many people in the Church confuse prophets with presidents of the Church. They are not the same thing!

How so? They are all sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators and accept the sustaining. If they aren't these things then they are false prophets.

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with? Read Doctrine and Covenants 107 very carefully.

[bbrown]

Zion will be built by those who have pierced the veil. Yes those who will not take up the sword against their neighbor will have to flee to Zion, but Zion has to be built for them to flee to. They will accept and teach all who come and help all who will to enter, but someone has to build it. The Gentiles of the Book of Mormon are the LDS and people of non lehite decent. The work is accelerating and time to be ready is very short. If the coming of the Lord and establishment of Zion was at the doors 180 years ago where are we now? Anyone. whoever they may be, who says "I have seen the Lord, he has ministered to me, this is how I did it" is worth checking out to see if the proper fruit is there, and if the signs follow. If they are all there it is wise to listen to what that person says, especially when they say the Lord comanded them to say it. Be it the President of the church, Denver Snuffer or just some dude on the internet, if they bring the spirit and point to Christ it is inour best interest to give heed, repent and seek Christ. This is not a competition, it is the work of the Lord. He has many servants who come from many different circumstances, yet all who are His point and direct to Him
.

[AGStacker]

Zion will be built by those who have pierced the veil. Yes those who will not take up the sword against their neighbor will have to flee to Zion, but Zion has to be built for them to flee to. They will accept and teach all who come and help all who will to enter, but someone has to build it. The Gentiles of the Book of Mormon are the LDS and people of non lehite decent. The work is accelerating and time to be ready is very short. If the coming of the Lord and establishment of Zion was at the doors 180 years ago where are we now? Anyone. whoever they may be, who says "I have seen the Lord, he has ministered to me, this is how I did it" is worth checking out to see if the proper fruit is there, and if the signs follow. If they are all there it is wise to listen to what that person says, especially when they say the Lord comanded them to say it. Be it the President of the church, Denver Snuffer or just some dude on the internet, if they bring the spirit and point to Christ it is inour best interest to give heed, repent and seek Christ. This is not a competition, it is the work of the Lord. He has many servants who come from many different circumstances, yet all who are His point and direct to Him
.

:ymapplause:

Beautifully said.

[Seek the Truth]

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with?

Any man claiming to be a prophet when he isn't would be false prophet. By your standards I guess you are saying Thomas Monson is a false prophet.

Read Doctrine and Covenants 107 very carefully.

I have it clearly says a President is Prophet.

[Seek the Truth]

Zion will be built by those who have pierced the veil.

I'm wondering what you base this on. In the scriptures it is recorded that the building of Zion was attempted in the time of Joseph Smith and they used regular old members of the Chruch, anybody they could get wet.

Yes those who will not take up the sword against their neighbor will have to flee to Zion, but Zion has to be built for them to flee to. They will accept and teach all who come and help all who will to enter, but someone has to build it. The Gentiles of the Book of Mormon are the LDS and people of non lehite decent. The work is accelerating and time to be ready is very short. If the coming of the Lord and establishment of Zion was at the doors 180 years ago where are we now? Anyone. whoever they may be, who says "I have seen the Lord, he has ministered to me, this is how I did it" is worth checking out to see if the proper fruit is there, and if the signs follow. If they are all there it is wise to listen to what that person says, especially when they say the Lord comanded them to say it. Be it the President of the church, Denver Snuffer or just some dude on the internet, if they bring the spirit and point to Christ it is inour best interest to give heed, repent and seek Christ. This is not a competition, it is the work of the Lord. He has many servants who come from many different circumstances, yet all who are His point and direct to Him.

This puts in direct odds with Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. They had the following to say about the topic;

D&C 28

1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

Really these verses are rich with Doctrine and understanding. Keep in mind Brother Cowdery is being directly addressed by the Lord's own voice, meaning this is not a lowly levite deacon, this is someone who has indeed pierced the veil; in fact not even a year earlier he had been ministered unto by an angel, and yet still he had been deceived by Hiram Page (who in fairness was not a deceiver but was also deceived). A man visited by angels, deceived.

So he instructed that:

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations
2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph, as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)
3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter
4) He shall not command Joseph
5) It shal be so until another is appointed in his stead

Slight rewording for grammar, feel free to use your own words, point being it could be helpful to identify various points.

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

D&C 43

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.

9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—

Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

It seem like a confirmation of the earlier revelations, given 3 times.

So 3 times by the voice of the Lord and by the voice of the Prophet Joseph Smith a fairly clear picture is painted. Now, Joseph Smith taught that all may receive unlimited revelation for themselves, and may use revelation according to their office or calling, and there are many other statements on revelation, I only ask that we include these 3 in the discussion, because they are important.

[A Random Phrase]

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with?

Any man claiming to be a prophet when he isn't would be false prophet. By your standards I guess you are saying Thomas Monson is a false prophet.

This brings up a question in my mind. Has Pres Monson ever said, "I am a prophet of God?" I think I've heard the other ga's call him that, but has he ever called himself that?

I don't think any president we've had, since Joseph Smith, has ever said, "I am a prophet of God." I've seen words like, "My people consider me such," but never an actual admittance. I think it is because they don't feel comfortable broadcasting that, as if it would be considered prideful (there may be another reason, but wanting to be humble seems like a good reason to me).

[Seek the Truth]

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with?

Any man claiming to be a prophet when he isn't would be false prophet. By your standards I guess you are saying Thomas Monson is a false prophet.

This brings up a question in my mind. Has Pres Monson ever said, "I am a prophet of God?" I think I've heard the other ga's call him that, but has he ever called himself that?

I don't think any president we've had, since Joseph Smith, has ever said, "I am a prophet of God." I've seen words like, "My people consider me such," but never an actual admittance. I think it is because they don't feel comfortable broadcasting that, as if it would be considered prideful (there may be another reason, but wanting to be humble seems like a good reason to me).

http://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostle ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[A Random Phrase]

http://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostle ... s?lang=eng

Thanks for the link. I clicked on Pres. Monson's autobiography. I found Elder Uchtdorf saying, “I feel the same can be said of the man we sustain today as the prophet of God,” but I did not find Pres. Monson saying it. In fact, Elder Uchtdorf didn't say it, either (but I have heard other apostles, I think, saying that Pres Monson is our prophet today). Elder U said "the man we sustain ... as".

No biggie to me. I know Pres. Monson has the right to lead this church. I was just wondering if he had ever made a plain statement that he was a prophet of God.

[A Random Phrase]

Well, I've been hunting around on the internet for a quote and cannot find one.

[Daryl]

I don't think you will find one. It would bring me comfort to here those words from any of the 15 PSRs about themselves. I consider them all prophets because I believe all things, I hope all things. Great power in what has become a mantra for me, established by JS in AoF 13.

I also believe DS is a prophet. I've read close to 50% of his written works. I have never witnessed him making the claim either.

I would find comfort in hearing it, but already find comfort of the Spirit testifying of it.

[BringerOfJoy]

I also believe DS is a prophet. I've read close to 50% of his written works. I have never witnessed him making the claim either.

I would find comfort in hearing it, but already find comfort of the Spirit testifying of it.

Well, then, here is comfort:

Saturday, July 14, 2012
Clearing Off Some Pending Questions
Do I consider myself "a prophet?"
The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. (Revelation 19: 10.) I have the testimony of Jesus.
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/ ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[oneClimbs]

I think everyone is blowing this way out of proportion. We are all servants of the Lord, I kind of missed the part where DS claimed he was THE Davidic servant or what not or THE only "true and living prophet" on earth. There is that funny trend in scriptures for the Lord to call people off the sidelines like Lehi, Samuel the Lamanite, Paul, etc. Don't we teach that God follows patterns? Weren't the people just as condemned for not listening to Lehi as they were not listening to Jeremiah?

Whatever Snuffer is or is not can be argued and debated. What does the spirit tell you? If I read a blog post on "MormonMommyBlog.com" and she makes an insightful point that the spirit testifies to me is true, am I not under obligation to obey...the LORD in that respect? Was that blogger not a servant of the Lord whether she recognized it or not?

We really need to grow out of our Fisher-Price understanding of gospel principles if we are ever to build Zion. Seek wisdom among all people and follow where the spirit guides and you cannot be deceived, it is as simple as that.

[AGStacker]

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with?

Any man claiming to be a prophet when he isn't would be false prophet. By your standards I guess you are saying Thomas Monson is a false prophet.

Read Doctrine and Covenants 107 very carefully.

I have it clearly says a President is Prophet.

It says that the president should be like unto Moses. It never says by becoming the president you are now a prophet.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Zion will be built by those who have pierced the veil. Yes those who will not take up the sword against their neighbor will have to flee to Zion, but Zion has to be built for them to flee to. They will accept and teach all who come and help all who will to enter, but someone has to build it. The Gentiles of the Book of Mormon are the LDS and people of non lehite decent. The work is accelerating and time to be ready is very short. If the coming of the Lord and establishment of Zion was at the doors 180 years ago where are we now? Anyone. whoever they may be, who says "I have seen the Lord, he has ministered to me, this is how I did it" is worth checking out to see if the proper fruit is there, and if the signs follow. If they are all there it is wise to listen to what that person says, especially when they say the Lord comanded them to say it. Be it the President of the church, Denver Snuffer or just some dude on the internet, if they bring the spirit and point to Christ it is inour best interest to give heed, repent and seek Christ. This is not a competition, it is the work of the Lord. He has many servants who come from many different circumstances, yet all who are His point and direct to Him
.

Awesome! :ymapplause:

[pilgrim]

bbrown, I could not have said it better, love what you said!

[jcricket6048]

I wouldn't say a false prophet because a prophecy would actually have to be made but how can I know a man to be an apostle, seer, prophet or revelator if there are no specific fruits to judge him with?

Any man claiming to be a prophet when he isn't would be false prophet. By your standards I guess you are saying Thomas Monson is a false prophet.

This brings up a question in my mind. Has Pres Monson ever said, "I am a prophet of God?" I think I've heard the other ga's call him that, but has he ever called himself that?

I don't think any president we've had, since Joseph Smith, has ever said, "I am a prophet of God." I've seen words like, "My people consider me such," but never an actual admittance. I think it is because they don't feel comfortable broadcasting that, as if it would be considered prideful (there may be another reason, but wanting to be humble seems like a good reason to me).

That is true since they are humble followers of Christ. But are we not all servants of The Lord since we are members of the church? Tis raises another question since Denver says he is a servant but that does not bother me since I know that I am a servant also.

[sadie_Mormon]

I see absolutely nothing in what he wrote/said to be wrong. I think people may be reading to much into it.

[Rand]

An interesting conversation. I would be interested on peoples sharing their ideas as to how does stewardship fit into this conversation of prophets?

[TZONE]

An interesting conversation. I would be interested on peoples sharing their ideas as to how does stewardship fit into this conversation of prophets?

"President" -> keys over the church as an intitution (as Hinkley called it)
"Prophet" -> The testimony of Jesus, is the Sprit of Prophecy, which is by definition a prophet. No Keys over the church however. Only over his family and stewardship given him THROUGH the keys of the president or his stewardship may rest outside the church but cannot receive anything for or in behalf of the church. (Like lehi did for his family yet could say nothing about Joshua or tell him what to do).