Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

[Lone Star Patriot]

Karen, I too hope that you receive that confirmation from Him that you have been accepted and sealed to Him. This is the goal of the Gospel of Christ, to bring all mankind to the knowledge of God.

I don't mean to be harsh, because there are things that I do not know, and I try to be more careful about stating what I know and what I believe by faith. However, here is a scripture that may help. And yes, there are many things that we can know by the Holy Spirit, Christ's Spirit, which He sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

You are not being harsh. I completely understand. I looked forward to the day of complete knowledge. For now, I have knowledge on many things and live by faith on all the rest Patience is a virtue

Karen,

Thank you for that wonderful response. I truly feel you and I see eye to eye here on this subject.

[Seek the Truth]

And I want to take the opportunity to say this, before it is too late, I think the questioning of my motives is unwarranted, I have a burning testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, obtained at great price, that is as valid as anyone else's here.

Many in fact take issue with in Amonhi's words, "Current Church Doctrine" and express their disagreement with it. It just so happens that I disagree with many things put forth by these people, and am no different in voicing my disagreements with them then they are in their original "dissent".

I have no ulterior motives. If people have a right to disagree with "Current Church Doctrine" in good faith and express it then I have a right to disagree with them in good faith.

STT I am just curious as to what "Amonhi" has to do with this discussion? And who are "these people"? What doctrine is being discussed here that goes against current church doctrine anyway? I'm just trying to understand where these statements are coming from.

Amonhi does not have anything to do with this discussion, he merely coined a phrase I find particularly useful particularly in the way he uses.

In this thread two examples would be you only have the Melchizedek priesthood if you pierce the veil and the President of the Church is not necessarily a Prophet. I don't think you will find that in the teaching of the Current PSRs, or old ones for that matter.

[AshleyB]

"HAVING A testimony that Jesus is the Christ or the one who was sent to save all mankind is NOT the same as receiving the testimony of Christ."

I was wondering if you could flesh this out, is it based on D&C 76 alone or are there other references.

Ok so I went and looked up just a few scriptures pertaining to Holy Spirit of Promise, Calling and Election, Spirit of Prophecy, Receiving the Testimony of Jesus.... etc.. But there is a lot more than what I am going to list.

2 Peter 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

D&C 76

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

Ephesians 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(A note: we are only sealed with that holy Spirit of promise after we have come to trust Christ and believe on His name. It requires us to "overcome by faith" Faith is not merely believing that God can do something. It is believing that He will.)

D&C 88

2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

D&C 88

73 Behold, I will hasten my work in its time.

74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;

75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

78 Teach ye diligently and my agrace shall attend you, that you may be binstructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;


D&C 93

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued fromagrace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

(Christ was not perfected from the day His intelligence received a spirit body... He had to grow in grace to grace just like us)

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and aknow what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

d&c 76

93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they (telestial Kingdom Inhabitants) who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

(These verses show that receiving Christ and receiving the Prophets are more than just knowing that Jesus is the Christ and that Moses was a Prophet or that President Monson is a Prophet. A person can believe these things and yet still not RECEIVE CHRIST or truly receive the Prophets. Videre posted some good scriptures pertaining to this.)

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

D&C 107

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

D&C 131

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an aincrease.

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of aprophecy means a man’s knowing that he is bsealed up unto ceternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

6 It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance.

d&c 11

24 Build upon my rock, which is my gospel;

25 Deny not the spirit of revelation, nor the spirit of prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these things;

26 Therefore, treasure up in your heart until the time which is in my wisdom that you shall go forth.

27 Behold, I speak unto all who have good desires, and have thrust in their sickle to reap.

28 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.

29 I am the same who came unto mine own and mine own received me not;

30 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen.

[AshleyB]

And I want to take the opportunity to say this, before it is too late, I think the questioning of my motives is unwarranted, I have a burning testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, obtained at great price, that is as valid as anyone else's here.

Many in fact take issue with in Amonhi's words, "Current Church Doctrine" and express their disagreement with it. It just so happens that I disagree with many things put forth by these people, and am no different in voicing my disagreements with them then they are in their original "dissent".

I have no ulterior motives. If people have a right to disagree with "Current Church Doctrine" in good faith and express it then I have a right to disagree with them in good faith.

STT I am just curious as to what "Amonhi" has to do with this discussion? And who are "these people"? What doctrine is being discussed here that goes against current church doctrine anyway? I'm just trying to understand where these statements are coming from.

Amonhi does not have anything to do with this discussion, he merely coined a phrase I find particularly useful particularly in the way he uses.

In this thread two examples would be you only have the Melchizedek priesthood if you pierce the veil and the President of the Church is not necessarily a Prophet. I don't think you will find that in the teaching of the Current PSRs, or old ones for that matter.

I do like Amonhi's phrasing of "current church doctrine" as well. I think one of the most difficult struggles facing latter day saints in this day and age is in distinguishing between what is tradition and opinion and what is true doctrine. I believe that there are some traditions of thought that have been repeated for so long through-out this church that some of these things that were just originally opinion have become "current church doctrine".

As I understand it, In the earlier days of the Church, holding an office in the Church was separate from holding the Priesthood. In our day these things have become conflated. In the early church one simply held a CHURCH OFFICE by common consent of the members. It did not require the Melchizedek Priesthood to become a Bishop or a church President. Today it is still the same though people do not realize it. Here are some statements from Joseph Smith from several different recordings written by those in attendance at the Temple Grove.

(The Words of Joseph Smith, p.243-248; Given 27 August 1843, Sunday Morning in the Temple Grove 1)

A sermon of Josephs Heb 7 chap Salem is Shiloam
Those who limit the designs of God as concerted by the grand council of H cannot obtain the Knowledge of God & I do not know but I may say they will drink in the Damnation of their souls-
I Prophecy that all the powers of Earth & Hell shall never be able to overthrow this Boy for I have obtained it by promise-
There are 3 grand principles or orders of Priesthood portrayed in this chapter
1st Levitical which was never able to administer a Blessing but only to bind heavy burdens which neither they nor their father able to bear
2 Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church 21
3d That of Melchisedec who had still greater power even power of an endless life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarch only but of King & Priest 22 to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man 23 & No man can attain to the Joint heirship 24 with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec 25 Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost 26 is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.


William Clayton Diary
A.M. at the Grove. Prest. J. preached on Hebrews c 7. After reading a letter from Thos. Carlin to S. Rigdon and making some remarks about it. 47 He shewed that the word "Salem" is a wrong translation it should be "Shalome" signifying peace. 48 He prophecied that "not all the powers of hell or earth combined can ever overthrow this boy" for he had a promise from the eternal God. He spoke concerning the priesthood of Melchisedek shewing that the sectarians never propossed to have it consequently never could save any one and would all be damned together. He showed that the power of the Melchisek P'd was to have the power of an "endless lives." 49 he showed that the everlasting covenants could not be broken, and by the sacrifice required of Abraham the fact that when God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man and he refuses to receive it he will be damned. 50-mentioning the case of the Israelites praying that God would speak to Moses & not to Them-in consequense of which he cursed them with a carnal law. 51


James Burgess Notebook
Hebrewes 7 chap. Paul is here treating of three different preisthoods, namely the preisthood of Aron, Abraham, and Melchizedeck, Abraham's preisthood was of greater power than Levi's and Melchizedeck's was of greater power than that of Abraham. The preisthood of Levi consisted of cursings and blessings carnal commandments and not of blessings and if the preisthood of this generation has no more power than that of Levi or Aron or of a bishhoprick it administers no blessings but cursings for it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 27 I ask was there any sealing power attending this preisthood. Oh no that would admit a man into the presence of God. 28 Oh no, but Abraham's was a more exalted power or preisthood he could talk and walk with God and yet consider how great this man was when even this patriarch Abraham gave a tenth part of all his spoils and then received a blessing under the hands of Melchesideck 29 even the last law or a fulness of the law or preisthood 30 which constituted him a king and preist after the order of Melchesideck or an endless life Now if Abraham had been like the sectarian world and would not have received any more revelation, what would have been the consequence it would have damned him. Book of Covenants. 31 The levitical preisthood was an appendage to the Melchesideck preisthood or the whole law of God when in full face or power in all its parts and bearings on the earth. 32 It is understood by many by reading this chapter that Melchesedeck was king of some country or nation on the earth, but it was not so, In the original it reads king of Shaloam which signifies king of peace or righteousness and not of any country or nation. 33
Malachi says that the sons of Levi shall in the last days offer an offering in rightousness. 34
Men will set up stakes and say thus far will we go and no farther, did Abraham when called upon to offer his son, 35 did the Saviour, 36 no, view him fulfiling all rightousness again on the banks of jordon, 37 also on the Mount transfigured before Peter and John there receiving the fulness of preisthood or the law of God, 38 setting up no stake but coming right up to the mark in all things here him after he returned from the Mount, did ever language of such magnitude fall from the lips of any man, hearken him. All power is given is given unto me both in heaven and the earth. 39 Offering's sacrifice's and carnal commandments, was added in consequence of transgression and they that did them should live by them. 40 View him the Son of God at saying it behoveth me to fulfil all rightousness 41 also in a garden saying if it be possible let this cup pass from me nevertheless thy will be done. 42 What was the design of the Almighty in making man, it was to exalt him to be as God, 43 the scripture says yet are Gods and it cannot be broken, 44 heirs of God and joint heirs I with Jesus Christ equal with him possesing all power &c. 45 The mystery power and glory of the preisthood is so great and glorious that the angels desired to understand it and cannot: why, because of the tradition of them and their fathers in setting up stakes and not coming up to the mark in their probationary state. 46

D&C 107 Says:

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

If a person holds this Higher Priesthood then they should be experiencing fruits said above. If they do not experience any of these fruits then they should know that they hold no portion of this higher Priesthood.

[Seek the Truth]

Ashley thanks for looking those up, before I put you to any more work though I think more simply my question is are you try to say having a testimony of Jesus = C&E? And if so which of those verses says that.

[Seek the Truth]

If a person holds this Higher Priesthood then they should be experiencing fruits said above. If they do not experience any of these fruits then they should know that they hold no portion of this higher Priesthood.

For the sake of clarity, and to see if I truly understand what you guys are saying, does this mean that in order to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost the administrator must have pierced the veil?

JS taught that 1) to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost one must get it by the laying on of hands by a legal administrator, 2) it must be a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, tpjs pg 199, 335, js-h 1:70.

If this is all true it would appear that almost no one has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Church.

[AshleyB]

I have said that one can have a testimony that Jesus is the Christ. That is a testimony. But I have said that Recieving The Testimony Of Jesus as spoken about in the scriptures is the same as receiving C&E. Yes. I have provided scriptures and quotes by Prophets who have said as much. There is not a verse that says " Calling and Election is the Same as Receiving the Testimony of Jesus" If that is what you are looking for. But I have done a lot of work and provided scriptures which show they are the same. There are different terms used to describe the same things ie: Receiving the Testimony of Christ, Spirit of Prophecy, Sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise, Calling and Election, More sure word of prophecy, member of the Church of the Firstborn....etc...

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

The Testimony of Christ = Spirit of Prophecy. Spirit of Prophecy = More Sure Word of Prophecy. More Sure word of Prophecy = Man knowing he is sealed by Holy Spirit of Promise. Sealed up to eternal life = Calling and Election/More Sure word of Prophecy. Calling and Election also = being a member of the Church of the Firstborn. You know you are a member of the cofb when you have received this. Knowing you have been sealed up to eternal life= Receiving a Testimony from Christ that you are cleansed from the blood and sins of this generation.

75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.

This promise spoken of in these verses is the more sure word of promise of the more sure word of prophecy or Christs testimony of you to the Father.

Concerning this instruction and testimony from Peter, Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

Now, if you can still not see the connections from what I have presented then I don't think I can help any further. You will have to do your own research and work from here on out on this subject.

[AshleyB]

If a person holds this Higher Priesthood then they should be experiencing fruits said above. If they do not experience any of these fruits then they should know that they hold no portion of this higher Priesthood.

For the sake of clarity, and to see if I truly understand what you guys are saying, does this mean that in order to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost the administrator must have pierced the veil?

JS taught that 1) to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost one must get it by the laying on of hands by a legal administrator, 2) it must be a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, tpjs pg 199, 335, js-h 1:70.

If this is all true it would appear that almost no one has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Church.

Uh... NO. LOL The bestowal of the gift from man to man is just symbolic. It doesn't mean because a person had hands placed on their heads they automatically receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost right in that second. It is an invitation to receive it. An offering from the Lord. It is a conditional offering. Conditional upon a persons obedience to laws and in Faith in Christ.

[Seek the Truth]

Ashley, thanks for the work you put into it, I hope you save it in a file somewhere, it's an interesting linkage of scriptures. And in all honesty I could not follow it. With the clarifications I think I see what you are saying, which I could not before.

I think to start I would say that more sure word of prophecy comes from the Holy Ghost, via TPJS, ie one hears the words of God/Jesus proclaiming C&E but it is not valid until the witness of the Holy Ghost. So I think it is accurate that the more sure word comes from the Holy Ghost, but it is not the Holy Ghost in the he is a person, neither is it the only thing the Holy Ghost does. It is one particular thing he does.

Second, I think the statement

The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

Means that the more sure word comes the spirit of prophecy/revelation, not that it is the spirit of prophecy/revelation itself.

Third, the term "testimony of Jesus" is used in parts of D&C 76 but one usage so far has been left out. If "testimony of Jesus" means "C&E" we have a problem with verse 79 which says the terrestrials are those who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus", the same language used earlier. My understanding of C&E is that it's a done deal, you are sealed up, there is no further valiance test. So maybe that means something else.

Lastly, we know that Joseph Smith testified that the original 12 were prophets, seers and revelators, and we know not all of them had a 2nd Comforter and likely no C&E, and yet they were prophets anyway. So spirit of prophecy coming from the testimony of Jesus may just be the spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ.

But I'm open to other explanations.

[Lone Star Patriot]

If a person holds this Higher Priesthood then they should be experiencing fruits said above. If they do not experience any of these fruits then they should know that they hold no portion of this higher Priesthood.

For the sake of clarity, and to see if I truly understand what you guys are saying, does this mean that in order to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost the administrator must have pierced the veil?

JS taught that 1) to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost one must get it by the laying on of hands by a legal administrator, 2) it must be a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, tpjs pg 199, 335, js-h 1:70.

If this is all true it would appear that almost no one has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Church.

You might like Elder Bednar's talk from General Conference, 2010.

The Holy Ghost does not become operative in our lives merely because hands are placed upon our heads and those four important words are spoken. (2010 October General Conference, Receive the Holy Ghost, Sun. Afternoon Session - David A. Bednar)

It is also interesting to note that both Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to receiving the Melchizidek priesthood. They received it after baptism and no one laid hands on their heads to bestow this gift.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1)

What is interesting is that this gift was bestowed, after Joseph had been translating the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, after Joseph had been in the presence of the Father and the Son, and after having been taught by Moroni over a period of several years. Yet it was before they had received the greater priesthood.

Men do not cause this gift to become active in our lives, it is a gift from the Lord. Your statements remind me of this scripture.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 28)

[AshleyB]

Ashley, thanks for the work you put into it, I hope you save it in a file somewhere, it's an interesting linkage of scriptures. And in all honesty I could not follow it. With the clarifications I think I see what you are saying, which I could not before.

I think to start I would say that more sure word of prophecy comes from the Holy Ghost, via TPJS, ie one hears the words of God/Jesus proclaiming C&E but it is not valid until the witness of the Holy Ghost. So I think it is accurate that the more sure word comes from the Holy Ghost, but it is not the Holy Ghost in the he is a person, neither is it the only thing the Holy Ghost does. It is one particular thing he does.

Second, I think the statement

The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

Means that the more sure word comes the spirit of prophecy/revelation, not that it is the spirit of prophecy/revelation itself.

Third, the term "testimony of Jesus" is used in parts of D&C 76 but one usage so far has been left out. If "testimony of Jesus" means "C&E" we have a problem with verse 79 which says the terrestrials are those who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus", the same language used earlier. My understanding of C&E is that it's a done deal, you are sealed up, there is no further valiance test. So maybe that means something else.

Lastly, we know that Joseph Smith testified that the original 12 were prophets, seers and revelators, and we know not all of them had a 2nd Comforter and likely no C&E, and yet they were prophets anyway. So spirit of prophecy coming from the testimony of Jesus may just be the spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ.

But I'm open to other explanations.

Yes, the Holy Ghost can bring us all sorts of Knowledge. It doesn't just have to be knowing you are sealed up to eternal life. The more sure word of Prophecy is referred to as the knowledge of being sealed up to eternal life. Joseph's words. Not mine. And I have said repeatedly there there are two types of testimonies. One type mentioned is when a person has a testimony that Christ is the Son of God. It is a testimony that a person has of Him. In other parts of the scriptures when it speaks of RECEIVING the testimony Of Christ it is speaking of His testimony that He has of you. Obviously context plays an important role in discerning which type of testimony is being spoken of. It is an important distinction to make because one type of testimony is life saving and the other is merely a stepping stone.

The type that was referred to way back earlier in this thread was the life saving Testimony from Christ. The promise of eternal life. That is the testimony that matters most.

[Seek the Truth]

If a person holds this Higher Priesthood then they should be experiencing fruits said above. If they do not experience any of these fruits then they should know that they hold no portion of this higher Priesthood.

For the sake of clarity, and to see if I truly understand what you guys are saying, does this mean that in order to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost the administrator must have pierced the veil?

JS taught that 1) to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost one must get it by the laying on of hands by a legal administrator, 2) it must be a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, tpjs pg 199, 335, js-h 1:70.

If this is all true it would appear that almost no one has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Church.

Uh... NO. LOL The bestowal of the gift from man to man is just symbolic. It doesn't mean because a person had hands placed on their heads they automatically receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost right in that second. It is an invitation to receive it. An offering from the Lord. It is a conditional offering. Conditional upon a persons obedience to laws and in Faith in Christ.

Well for clarity this is what JS said (from the previous references):

What if we should attempt to get the gift of the Holy Ghost through any other means except the signs or way which God hath appointed—would we obtain it? Certainly not; all other means would fail.

There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God...

In the first place, suffice it to say, I went into the woods to inquire of the Lord, by prayer, His will concerning me, and I saw an angel, and he laid his hands upon my head, and ordained me to a Priest after the order of Aaron, and to hold the keys of this Priesthood, which office was to preach repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, and also to baptize. But I was informed that this office did not extend to the laying on of hands for the giving of the Holy Ghost; that that office was a greater work, and was to be given afterward; but that my ordination was a preparatory work, or a going before, which was the spirit of Elias; for the spirit of Elias was a going before to prepare the way for the greater, which was the case with John the Baptist. He came crying through the wilderness, “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” And they were informed, if they could receive it, it was the spirit of Elias; and John was very particular to tell the people, he was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

He told the people that his mission was to preach repentance and baptize with water; but it was He that should come after him that should baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost.

If he had been an impostor, he might have gone to work beyond his bounds, and undertook to have performed ordinances which did not belong to that office and calling, under the spirit of Elias.

This is repeated in js-h 1:70

I think clearly the point is 1)The gift of the holy ghost is given by the laying on of hands and cannot be obtained another way, 2) the Aaronic Priesthood does not have the authority to do it, leaving the Melchizedek Priesthood, which has been the practice in all known recorded instances; and it goes without saying the recipient must be a believing faithful person.

It has been put before us that only those who have pierced the veil have the Melchizedek Priesthood, and yet we all know this only has happened to a small percentage of people. Yet every day in the Church people are being confirmed and given the gift by people who have not pierced the veil, and that goes back to the early days of the Church (this is just the gift of the Holy Ghost, we won't even get into Temple ordinances).

If so that makes most people imposters with no authority to give anyone the gift of the holy ghost.

So I either misunderstand what was said or we have a real problem on our hands.

[AshleyB]

I think Elder Holland explained things well when he spoke of authority racing far ahead of true Priesthood Power. I think you provided some good references STT. There seems to be a bit of a chicken or the egg discussion happening. Personally I cannot answer these questions for you. In my searching I have discovered that I actually know very little. I am still trying to figure out things myself. What I do know is that ordinances are only binding when they are ratified by Heaven. You have formulated some good questions to take to Heavenly Father. I have some more too. Each answer always leads me to more questions. I find it exciting.

[Seek the Truth]

You might like Elder Bednar's talk from General Conference, 2010.

The Holy Ghost does not become operative in our lives merely because hands are placed upon our heads and those four important words are spoken. (2010 October General Conference, Receive the Holy Ghost, Sun. Afternoon Session - David A. Bednar)

I do like it, and I think everyone believes that.

It is also interesting to note that both Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to receiving the Melchizidek priesthood. They received it after baptism and no one laid hands on their heads to bestow this gift.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1)

1:70 actually says that they did not have the gift yet, and that it would be conferred "hereafter". I do not know if this is recorded anywhere but clearly Joseph Smith taught he was going to get it, and that he did not have it yet (at that time).

What is interesting is that this gift was bestowed, after Joseph had been translating the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, after Joseph had been in the presence of the Father and the Son, and after having been taught by Moroni over a period of several years. Yet it was before they had received the greater priesthood.

Men do not cause this gift to become active in our lives,

In my earlier post Joseph Smith teaches us that we can only get it one way, through the laying on hands, that any other way won't work.

it is a gift from the Lord.

Given through someone holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. If hardly anyone has the Melchizedek Priesthood then hardly anyone here has the Gift of the Holy Ghost, extended Church wide. That would be a big problem.

Your statements remind me of this scripture.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 28)

I believe there is a God today, and he has restored revelation and priesthood as described by Joseph Smith.

[AshleyB]

Also something that came to mind was John the Baptist.

27 Which gospel is the gospel of and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.


It is interesting to me that John the Baptist was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old. Eight days old would not even have been old enough to have been baptized. And it also says he was filled with the Holy Ghost from the time that he was in his mothers womb. One question that comes to mind is why he would have had need to be ordained by Angels if their was a church Hierarchy and Priesthood holders during his time? Why was he ordained outside of those channels completely? There were many who did not receive John's testimony in his day. They probably thought he was crazy with his claims of being ordained by Angels and not through "the proper channels."

People now a days get upset if they hear of a person speaking of being ordained through other means outside of church channels. They sometimes say that God would not do that. They assume his work is done and that he has given all His power unto men like the verse states that LSP posted.

[Seek the Truth]

Joseph Smith taught that John the Baptist was the only legal administrator left and interestingly, in his words, the jews should be obedient to him, tpjs 275-276. IOW as far as I can understand the jews had entered complete apostasy and had no more authority by the time he was of age, pg 272-273.

Joseph Smith also taught that angels cannot baptize if a legal administrator was in the flesh (pg 265) and I think he said the same thing about priesthood but I cannot find it yet; I imagine the same for Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[AshleyB]

Joseph Smith taught that John the Baptist was the only legal administrator left and interestingly, in his words, the jews should be obedient to him, tpjs 275-276. IOW as far as I can understand the jews had entered complete apostasy and had no more authority by the time he was of age, pg 272-273.

Joseph Smith also taught that angels cannot baptize if a legal administrator was in the flesh (pg 265) and I think he said the same thing about priesthood but I cannot find it yet; I imagine the same for Gift of the Holy Ghost.

I will not question your point about them no longer having authority. But I wonder, we're THEY AWARE they had no authority?

Could we like-wise believe we have authority or power when we don't?

[Seek the Truth]

Indeed. With the Jews of the time it would have been fairly easy, I would have started asking them where the Prophet was.

If we were to get into all the Priesthood issues surrounding succession in the OT people's heads around here would explode clean off. I mean people would lose their minds. If the Israelites were not a people glued together by a culture, hoo, who knows what would have happened.

Your last point is very good, we are told to build our house upon rock and not sand, and what does that mean? It means we need to obtain a sure testimony of 1) God, 2) Jesus and the atonement, 3)Prophets/Scriptures/Priesthood/Church is true probably in that order (although they all interrelate), else we could be on sand and washout. I spent a good 3-4 years obtaining those, and fortunately they have stood up for me and I haven't felt them to be shaken yet.

[AGStacker]

Are we saying Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus?

If you are referring to him actually seeing Christ I would say no because he's never said such.

[Seek the Truth]

Are we saying Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus?

If you are referring to him actually seeing Christ I would say no because he's never said such.

I'm referring to the words of John and Joseph Smith stating the relationship between a testimony of Jesus and prophecy, and quite a few scriptures that say you can obtain a testimony of the Godhead through the Holy Ghost.

But we can short circuit that conversation, save some heavy duty copy and paste, and just examine one statement by Joseph Smith, wherein he declared that the original 12 were prophets, seers and revelators (tpjs pg 109) despite the fact that Oliver Cowdery recorded that many of them had not seen Jesus.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I read every post on this thread. I felt it really had no bases from the outset. It turned into a debate on who is a prophet, who has authority, keys, or the priesthood to do what they do. It at times touched on real things like scriptural understandings. I do feel it may even have enlighten a few (one or two) who where lose but willing to look.

What I see is the Church has its three crayons. They try to teach everyone to color everything with only those three colors. Is Denver coloring outside of those three crayons? No, he has never offered anything that had not already been revealed. He is mixing the crayons as he colors and is making new colors... but he is still only using three crayons. At times, the GA's mix the three colors too, just not to the degree Denver is (that is my judgement). JS had many more colors, lets say he had the box with eight large crayons. The Messiah has the big box of crayons with 64 colors. I do not want to play with only three crayons, life is to short.

I know most will not understand what I am trying to say here, but it is only the two or even the one, that I am talking too. What am I sharing here with you. What is it that I have freely shared in the past with whomever asked? It is to learn how to seek Adonai and come to experience Him. To know Him for yourself. And by serving Him, earning your place with Him. I have thousands of doctrinal papers on every principle or doctrine of the kingdom... but at the heart of it all is, 'How to find G_d, how to Love to the degree He desire you to love, and have charity for those around you that have not yet experienced such joy'.

The heart of the law is LOVE. Love G_d with all your heart might mind and strength, love yourself, love your brethren as yourself, even love those who hate you, who do evil unto you and spitefully use you. If you knew nothing about the kingdom but you Loved with all your Heart, you will make it.

I have lost my way a few times here, letting my ego step out of its place and wanting to be served. I beg your forgiveness, and shall ever seek to not let that happen again!

Shalom

[North_Star]

Thank you. Peace.

[marc]

Welcome back, KoZ!

[AshleyB]

.

[Daryl]

Great thoughts KoZ. That's what I have always liked about you.