Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

I think if you understood what I am saying in my last post, you wouldn't be asking this question. I think you also ignored my question about keys.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Well, I sort of asked the first question, and tbh, I'm not sure I got an answer;

Are we saying Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus?

And to be clear, are you saying it is not possible for anyone other than Joseph Smith to hold the keys? If so, what would happen if I were to produce scripture that says they can be passed on to someone else.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

Seek the Truth wrote:Well, I sort of asked the first question, and tbh, I'm not sure I got an answer;

Are we saying Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus?

And to be clear, are you saying it is not possible for anyone other than Joseph Smith to hold the keys? If so, what would happen if I were to produce scripture that says they can be passed on to someone else.
I did answer your first question, but it appears you don't understand what I'm saying.

I was asking you what you think the keys of the kingdom are, and I quoted D&C 90 for context. Then I asked a follow on question.

Feel free to consider these questions and don't feel rushed to give an answer.

singyourwayhome
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1047
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is a Prophet

Post by singyourwayhome »

SmallFarm wrote:All my life, I've stayed up late staring up at the night sky, watching for a sign. I've seen many falling stars, they're all little signs to me. I'm still waiting for the big one though. :)
I've seen a few things in the last several months that felt like signs to me.This isn't my photo, but I have one almost like it, snapped from just outside my back door Image. It's a complete 22-degree halo, and not considered especially rare, generally speaking. The farther north you are, the more common they are. But there were two of these in one week, I live in SLC, have lived in Utah the last 30 years, and never seen one before. And I watch the sky a lot.

There was also an amazing sun pillar on New Year's Eve. I've been looking online for a photo similar to what I saw, but am coming up empty. When I first noticed it, the sun was maybe 40 degrees above the horizon, with a brilliant pillar of light extending downward, past the horizon. The pillar shot higher up the lower the sun got, and remained until after the sun set. We were driving home from Idaho, along 1-15. When I pointed it out to my vanful of children, my 4-year-old daughter exclaimed, "It's like Jesus coming!" and I felt it was an assurance of future events. All of the incredible sky optics I've seen lately came with an accompanying impression that God is fully aware of what's happening and fully in control of events and outcomes.

Here's a photo similar to how the sun pillar ended: http://www.eronn.net/astro/solsoyle/sub ... T3221a.jpg

The sun pillar was seen in Montana that same evening, as well; I wonder who all could see it.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Lone Star Patriot wrote: I did answer your first question, but it appears you don't understand what I'm saying.
Could be. It sounds like you think Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus. However, that seems like quite a nuclear thing for me to presume so I thought I would let you say what you really mean. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I was asking you what you think the keys of the kingdom are, and I quoted D&C 90 for context. Then I asked a follow on question.

Feel free to consider these questions and don't feel rushed to give an answer.
I think the keys of the kingdom are all the rights and power GOd grants to man on earth. I believe these keys will never be taken from Joseph Smith, just as they will never be taken from Adam and other Presidents who received them. Interesting in verse 6 two other men were given the same keys. Also in D&C 28 it says another man will be appointed in Joseph's stead and receive keys. Joseph Smith later said he gave the keys to the twelve in TPJS pg 226;

So I'm not quite sure what you are saying. I believe a man keeps the keys he has as long as he is worthy, and can pass them on to others when appropriate.

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Denver Declares He is a Prophet

Post by A Random Phrase »

Awesome photo! It reminds me of these scriptures:
6 And behold this is not all, there shall be many signs and wonders in heaven.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 14:6)
See also Helaman chapter 16, and 3 Nephi chapter 1

14 But, behold, I say unto you that before this great day shall come the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall be turned into blood, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and there shall be greater signs in heaven above and in the earth beneath

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:14)
40 And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 45:40)
singyourwayhome wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:All my life, I've stayed up late staring up at the night sky, watching for a sign. I've seen many falling stars, they're all little signs to me. I'm still waiting for the big one though. :)
I've seen a few things in the last several months that felt like signs to me.This isn't my photo, but I have one almost like it, snapped from just outside my back door Image. It's a complete 22-degree halo, and not considered especially rare, generally speaking. The farther north you are, the more common they are. But there were two of these in one week, I live in SLC, have lived in Utah the last 30 years, and never seen one before. And I watch the sky a lot.

There was also an amazing sun pillar on New Year's Eve. I've been looking online for a photo similar to what I saw, but am coming up empty. When I first noticed it, the sun was maybe 40 degrees above the horizon, with a brilliant pillar of light extending downward, past the horizon. The pillar shot higher up the lower the sun got, and remained until after the sun set. We were driving home from Idaho, along 1-15. When I pointed it out to my vanful of children, my 4-year-old daughter exclaimed, "It's like Jesus coming!" and I felt it was an assurance of future events. All of the incredible sky optics I've seen lately came with an accompanying impression that God is fully aware of what's happening and fully in control of events and outcomes.

Here's a photo similar to how the sun pillar ended: http://www.eronn.net/astro/solsoyle/sub ... T3221a.jpg

The sun pillar was seen in Montana that same evening, as well; I wonder who all could see it.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Lone Star Patriot wrote: I did answer your first question, but it appears you don't understand what I'm saying.
Could be. It sounds like you think Thomas Monson does not have a testimony of Jesus. However, that seems like quite a nuclear thing for me to presume so I thought I would let you say what you really mean. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I was asking you what you think the keys of the kingdom are, and I quoted D&C 90 for context. Then I asked a follow on question.

Feel free to consider these questions and don't feel rushed to give an answer.
I think the keys of the kingdom are all the rights and power GOd grants to man on earth. I believe these keys will never be taken from Joseph Smith, just as they will never be taken from Adam and other Presidents who received them. Interesting in verse 6 two other men were given the same keys. Also in D&C 28 it says another man will be appointed in Joseph's stead and receive keys. Joseph Smith later said he gave the keys to the twelve in TPJS pg 226;

So I'm not quite sure what you are saying. I believe a man keeps the keys he has as long as he is worthy, and can pass them on to others when appropriate.

Actually, I never said anything about President Monson or his testimony. I suggest you pray about what it means to receive a testimony of Jesus, versus proclaiming one. You kept asking me to clarify what I think about President Monson having a testimony. This question itself means you don't understand what I was saying.

I also suggest you study all the mention of keys in the D&C. Your explanation of keys is basic and similar to what most LDS think. There is much more to keys than is commonly understood by most Latter Day Saints. Section 121 gives a great suggestion on how to understand the priesthood.
45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121)
You've had many people declare to you plain and precious truths. Yet, you seem to be stuck in the same place going in circles. If your desire is sincere, you won't ask me, but you will ask the Lord, read the scriptures and ponder what they teach us. Your understanding and sincerity will be apparent by the words you share here. You don't seem sincere at all. In fact, you tried to bait me several times into saying things I was not.


The easiest question you could have asked would have been, what is the difference between receiving a testimony and proclaiming one. You avoided that approach and your true intentions were revealed.


You often feign innocence, but there is always contention in the way you construct your posts. I know people have mentioned that to you before. Cease from these practices and you will find that your love and knowledge of the Lord will increase. Seek after the greater portion of the word.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is a Prophet

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

singyourwayhome wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:All my life, I've stayed up late staring up at the night sky, watching for a sign. I've seen many falling stars, they're all little signs to me. I'm still waiting for the big one though. :)
I've seen a few things in the last several months that felt like signs to me.This isn't my photo, but I have one almost like it, snapped from just outside my back door Image. It's a complete 22-degree halo, and not considered especially rare, generally speaking. The farther north you are, the more common they are. But there were two of these in one week, I live in SLC, have lived in Utah the last 30 years, and never seen one before. And I watch the sky a lot.

There was also an amazing sun pillar on New Year's Eve. I've been looking online for a photo similar to what I saw, but am coming up empty. When I first noticed it, the sun was maybe 40 degrees above the horizon, with a brilliant pillar of light extending downward, past the horizon. The pillar shot higher up the lower the sun got, and remained until after the sun set. We were driving home from Idaho, along 1-15. When I pointed it out to my vanful of children, my 4-year-old daughter exclaimed, "It's like Jesus coming!" and I felt it was an assurance of future events. All of the incredible sky optics I've seen lately came with an accompanying impression that God is fully aware of what's happening and fully in control of events and outcomes.

Here's a photo similar to how the sun pillar ended: http://www.eronn.net/astro/solsoyle/sub ... T3221a.jpg

The sun pillar was seen in Montana that same evening, as well; I wonder who all could see it.

That is an amazing photo! Thank you so much for sharing it. I too have been seeing signs in the heavens. I've been writing them down and even drawing them to the best of my ability in my journal. Interestingly, my daughter and I witnessed a very similar sign, though it was the moon. It also included a pillar and a ring around the moon. The pillar was the most striking part. It was much more faint than what is in your picture, but still very visible to both me and my daughter. We saw it last November.

Thanks again for sharing.

karend77
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1034

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by karend77 »

Lone Star Patriot wrote:Receiving the testimony of Jesus is different than proclaiming a testimony of Jesus.

There is a lot that we as LDS proclaim to know, but have yet to fully understand.
I personally believe you cannot proclaim a testimony of Christ if you have not received a testimony of Christ. Also you seem to not want to answer Seek the Truth's question about President Monson, when a simple yes or no would suffice.

For me I say yes, he has recieved a testimony, proclaims a testimony and has the keys. He stated in April 2010 Conference:

My beloved brothers and sisters, in our hour of deepest sorrow, we can receive profound peace from the words of the angel that first Easter morning: “He is not here: for he is risen.”17
He is risen! He is risen!
Tell it out with joyful voice.
He has burst his three days’ prison;
Let the whole wide earth rejoice.
Death is conquered; man is free.
Christ has won the victory!18

As one of His special witnesses on earth today, this glorious Easter Sunday, I declare that this is true, in His sacred name—even the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior—amen.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/he-i ... +christ%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

karend77 wrote:
I personally believe you cannot proclaim a testimony of Christ if you have not received a testimony of Christ. Also you seem to not want to answer Seek the Truth's question about President Monson, when a simple yes or no would suffice.
Actually, there will be many who proclaim the testimony of Christ and will inherit the telestial kingdom.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
There is a difference.

karend77
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1034

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by karend77 »

Lone Star Patriot wrote:
Actually, there will be many who proclaim the testimony of Christ and will inherit the telestial kingdom.
Disagree on telestial,

as D&C 76 says about telestial beings - those who will inhabit the telestial kingdom include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus and v 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

There might be imposters that might seem to "proclaim" of Christ. but on closer inspection they do not witness through the Holy Spirit, nor on closer inspection can their words be scripturally sound. One definition of proclaim is "to praise or glorify openly or publicly ". Telestial beings could not nor would not be able to do this.

When I hear President Monson speak, which such brightness of hope I hear and see someone who has that testimony, lives that testimony and proclaims (glorifies) Christ.

AshleyB
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1675
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by AshleyB »

.
Last edited by AshleyB on May 9th, 2013, 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

AshleyB
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1675
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by AshleyB »

.
Last edited by AshleyB on May 9th, 2013, 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

karend77
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1034

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by karend77 »

AshleyB wrote: Yes, those in the telestial Kingdom have not received the testimony of Jesus. That have not RECEIVED His testimony of them. There are many who say they have a testimony of Christ. Having a testimony that Jesus is the Christ is not enough to save a person. He must have a testimony of YOU. That is what these verses are speaking about..... but it doesn't really mean a whole lot unless that testimony has brought you TO THE LORD so that He can reveal and you can RECEIVE His testimony that you are redeemed.
Then it seems to me your description is more is speaking more of Calling and Election than the normal definition of "testimony" that the average person understands or than the normal Joe at church bearing his "testimony" (using Lds.org's description- A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior's true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. With this foundation, a testimony grows to include all principles of the gospel.)

The average non LDS Christian (as the only baptised into the LDS faith member of my family, I do have experience in this area personally and with family/friends)... praises (testifies) mostly that they have been "saved" by Jesus. They do not live their lives as they "proclaim/testify". They do not understand the Savior or the gospel, understandably so, as they do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I hope before the end of my mortal journey than I will have the confirmation that I am HIS, accepted by HIM; it is my goal. Just because we havent reached that point does not mean we cant testify/proclaim of the truths that we do know, which have been witnessed by the Holy Ghost.

As far as the title of his this thread if "DS declares he is HIS servant", then who am I to say he isnt. There are those on earth who have also reached this station in their lives, but go about their lives quietly serving among us. DS chooses to be more public.

President Monson has recieved this witness he is HIS servant. BUT unlike DS, he has been called to be the Prophet and a Special Witness of Christ. He has been given keys that others do not have. It is his calling to testify and proclaim 24/7.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

karend77 wrote:
Lone Star Patriot wrote:
Actually, there will be many who proclaim the testimony of Christ and will inherit the telestial kingdom.
Disagree on telestial,

as D&C 76 says about telestial beings - those who will inhabit the telestial kingdom include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus and v 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

There might be imposters that might seem to "proclaim" of Christ. but on closer inspection they do not witness through the Holy Spirit, nor on closer inspection can their words be scripturally sound. One definition of proclaim is "to praise or glorify openly or publicly ". Telestial beings could not nor would not be able to do this.

When I hear President Monson speak, which such brightness of hope I hear and see someone who has that testimony, lives that testimony and proclaims (glorifies) Christ.
Matthew 7 states the opposite. There will be many in that day that proclaim, did we not prophesy in thy name and in thy name do many good works?

President Taylor said plainly that Matthew 7 was speaking directly to Latter Day Saints.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
Karen, perhaps your definition of the description in verse 103 is different than the Lord's. Perhaps this might be something to look into. Perhaps understanding what it means to "receive" the testimony of Christ should be something to understand. Your very salvation may depend on it. If you feel you already do know what these scriptures mean, then feel free to dismiss everything I have said. My views should not worry you or anyone else if you feel I am in error.

AshleyB
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1675
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by AshleyB »

.
Last edited by AshleyB on May 9th, 2013, 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

karend77 wrote:
I hope before the end of my mortal journey than I will have the confirmation that I am HIS, accepted by HIM; it is my goal. Just because we havent reached that point does not mean we cant testify/proclaim of the truths that we do know, which have been witnessed by the Holy Ghost.
Karen, I too hope that you receive that confirmation from Him that you have been accepted and sealed to Him. This is the goal of the Gospel of Christ, to bring all mankind to the knowledge of God.

I don't mean to be harsh, because there are things that I do not know, and I try to be more careful about stating what I know and what I believe by faith. However, here is a scripture that may help. And yes, there are many things that we can know by the Holy Spirit, Christ's Spirit, which He sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.
We need to be acquainted with the voice of the Lord. We need to recognize His voice as He teaches us. When we hear Him speak to us, we can also know the truth of all things. He does speak to us, but sometimes it takes time to learn to actually recognize His voice.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Well let's be clear, having a testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. This is in the Bible and confirmed by many Latter Day Prophets.

In fact, Joseph Smith proclaims his prophetic office based on his testimony of Jesus, period, in TPJS pg 119, 182, and particularly 269.

Quite simply, if you have a testimony of Jesus and are called to the office of President of the High Priesthood/endowed with all the keys given to man on earth at that time, you are a Prophet of God, having all the gifts that God bestows on the head of the Church, period full stop.

Someone tell me a President of the Church who did not have a testimony of Jesus, and how they got there.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by marc »

Those who have been through the temple know that we have all been "anointed" to become priests/priestesses and kings/queens. This means we have received the promise. Joseph Smith was eager with great anxiety to have the temple finished before his time so that the saints could receive their endowments. Without them, we cannot have that promise. At any point in time thereafter we can, according to our "faithfulness" and diligence in obedience to his commandments have those promises sealed to us by the Savior. They are not sealed by the church or by the priesthood. Only the Lord "seals" us up to this. Thus we become members of the Church of the Firstborn as Enoch and many others have throughout scriptural history.

In the church, we as a whole myopically act as if we have become Zion, when in fact we as a whole failed to achieve Zion and were condemned to move west to try again. One day we will be called to build Zion again, but only until there are enough members of the CotFB to live there. We are not seeking Zion as a whole. We are under condemnation. But we can each have this condemnation removed by seeking out and claiming that promise until we receive it.

Only few like John Pontius, Denver Snuffer, and any of our beloved General Authorities who have received it and as many as have testified in history such as Nephi, Lehi, Jacob, Isiaiah, Moses, Abraham, etc. Each of us has this potential and gift waiting for us to open it and receive it.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Lone Star Patriot wrote: Actually, I never said anything about President Monson or his testimony. I suggest you pray about what it means to receive a testimony of Jesus, versus proclaiming one. You kept asking me to clarify what I think about President Monson having a testimony. This question itself means you don't understand what I was saying.
Well it seems off topic. The question I asked simply was does Thomas Monson have a testimony of Jesus. There is really no need to go any further. If he does, then he is simply a Prophet of God with all the gifts God bestows on the head of the Church, something a number of people in this thread and on this forum struggle to accept.
I also suggest you study all the mention of keys in the D&C. Your explanation of keys is basic and similar to what most LDS think. There is much more to keys than is commonly understood by most Latter Day Saints. Section 121 gives a great suggestion on how to understand the priesthood.

You've had many people declare to you plain and precious truths. Yet, you seem to be stuck in the same place going in circles. If your desire is sincere, you won't ask me, but you will ask the Lord, read the scriptures and ponder what they teach us.
I do, and I have.
Your understanding and sincerity will be apparent by the words you share here. You don't seem sincere at all. In fact, you tried to bait me several times into saying things I was not.
No, I have not.

I sincerely believe the beliefs expressed by a number of people on these forums are in error and are not in their best interest of the people proclaim them or who read them. These are my sincere opinions.
The easiest question you could have asked would have been, what is the difference between receiving a testimony and proclaiming one. You avoided that approach and your true intentions were revealed.
My true intention is/was to establish whether Thomas Monson is a prophet of God, something that is questioned by a number of people on this forum. The easiest way to establish this is for people to examine whether or not he has a testimony of Jesus, for Joseph Smith and others have taught this is what determines if one is a prophet. The questions you put forward is a different subject.
You often feign innocence, but there is always contention in the way you construct your posts. I know people have mentioned that to you before. Cease from these practices and you will find that your love and knowledge of the Lord will increase. Seek after the greater portion of the word.
Yes people have said that to me and to others and due to the moderation policy of this forum we can't really say anything back, which are the rules one accepts when one posts here, however it don't mean that it is true;

If someone came on here proclaiming that having a modern prophet ensures the salvation of the saints I think we can all imagine what the response would be;

And speaking of plain and precious truths, one can only receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost from one holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. Joseph Smith was clear on that point. TPJS pgs 199, 335.

If we do not have the Melchizedek Priesthood we cannot receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

AshleyB
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1675
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by AshleyB »

1st: No one has claimed President Monson is not a prophet so I wish we could just leave him out of this conversation. This discussion had nothing to do with President Monson in the opening thread and still has nothing to do with him now.

2nd: I agree that receiving the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy and anyone who has this is by virtue a prophet.

3rd: Some misunderstanad that HAVING a testimony that Jesus is the Christ is "the testimony of Jesus" that is being spoken of in these scriptures. You or I having a testimony that Jesus is the Christ is not the same as RECEIVING the testimony of Jesus. When you RECEIVE the testimony of Jesus you are RECEIVING His testimony of YOUR redemption through His atonement and through Faith.

4th: There are all sorts of people who claim that Jesus is the Christ and they are hateful and really do not follow Him. I hate to pick on anyone but that Baptist church for example ( The Westboro Baptist Church) that is very hateful towards people...their members claim Jesus is the Christ and they have a testimony He is the Christ. That does not mean they have RECIEVED the Testimony of Jesus. It is not the same thing. Frankly, I believe their actions and their fruits prove they have not truly received the testimony of Jesus. A person who has had His charity bestowed on them and has knowledge of being redeemed by Him will certainly not be perfect but they will not call people names and tell them that they hate them. They will love one another inspite of differences.

"Peter made it clear that a testimony of Jesus Christ ( Or that having your own testimony that Jesus is the Christ) is not in itself evidence that one’s calling and election has been made sure."

Having your Calling and Election made sure is being sealed up to eternal life and this knowledge is the spirit of Prophecy. Or the "more sure word" of prophecy (Think about signs an tokens in the temple). Calling and Election is the spirit of prophecy. The Receiving the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. They are the same thing. Calling and Election and receiving the testimony of Christ are the same thing.

HAVING A testimony that Jesus is the Christ or the one who was sent to save all mankind is NOT the same as receiving the testimony of Christ.

"he said that although they had heard the voice of the Father declaring that Jesus was his Son, this was not sufficient to obtain the blessing—there was “a more sure word of prophecy”—the calling and election made sure."

Concerning this instruction and testimony from Peter, Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

Lets see what having a promise sealed to us means. D&C 76 States who the heirs of the Celestial Kingdom will be...

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.



Excerpt: http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/CallElectSurJSBRMc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When the Holy Spirit of Promise places his ratifying seal upon a baptism, or a marriage, or any covenant, except that of having one's calling and election made sure, the seal is a conditional approval or ratification; it is binding in eternity only in the event of subsequent obedience to the terms and conditions of whatever covenant is involved.

But when the ratifying seal of approval is placed upon someone whose calling and election is thereby made sure--because there are no more conditions to be met by the obedient person--this act of being sealed up unto eternal life is of such transcendent import that of itself it is called being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which means that in this crowning sense, being so sealed is the same as having one's calling and election made sure. Thus, to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is to be sealed up unto eternal life; and to be sealed up unto eternal life is to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. And of this usage of terms, a usage which is wholly misunderstood unless the whole concept of the sealing power of the Spirit is understood, the scriptures and other prophetic utterances bear repeated witness.

Thus Joseph Smith says that when Peter "exhorts us to make our calling and election sure," it is the same thing as "the sealing power spoken of by Paul in other places." (Teachings, 149.) The illustrative quotation from Paul which the Prophet then quotes is: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye hared the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory," that we may be sealed up unto the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13-14.) That is, the calling and election of Ephesian Saints had been made sure because they were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

AshleyB
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1675
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by AshleyB »

I also thought I would add my voice to Frederick's and say that I do not have all understanding or know everything either. Not that anyone would think that. lol There is so much I have still to learn. These things I did not know until the Lord taught them to me. But I do know that these things are true and that there is a difference between having a testimony that Jesus is the Christ and Receiving THE testimony of Christ to us. I know these things because He has revealed it to me and I could not have known it any other way. I am only participating in this discussion and trying to help explain these things because I don't want others to miss out on important knowledge or gifts from Christ. As the Lord has been patient and little by little helped me to understand these things it has brought me closer to Him. This is what I want for EVERYONE. I don't share because I want to force my own opinions and speculations down other people's throats. I do my best to be clear when something is my opinion and when it is something I have learned through revelation for myself. I have only hoped to help clear the dust of confusion. I will also add an agreeing voice with Frederick when I say that if you believe these things are false then you are free to dismiss it. In my experience it is when I have an accurate understanding of something that the spirit is able to bear witness of its truth and teach me further.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

AshleyB wrote: HAVING A testimony that Jesus is the Christ or the one who was sent to save all mankind is NOT the same as receiving the testimony of Christ.
I was wondering if you could flesh this out, is it based on D&C 76 alone or are there other references.

Excerpt: http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/CallElectSurJSBRMc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Very good resource btw.

User avatar
Lone Star Patriot

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Lone Star Patriot »

Seek the Truth wrote:


I sincerely believe the beliefs expressed by a number of people on these forums are in error and are not in their best interest of the people proclaim them or who read them. These are my sincere opinions.

My true intention is/was to establish whether Thomas Monson is a prophet of God, something that is questioned by a number of people on this forum. The easiest way to establish this is for people to examine whether or not he has a testimony of Jesus, for Joseph Smith and others have taught this is what determines if one is a prophet. The questions you put forward is a different subject.

So, your true intention is to root out those in error who do not believe Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. I guess I was right after all, your true intentions have been revealed. You were not trying to understand what I was saying, but you were trying to ascertain whether or not I think Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet.

My statement about receiving a testimony and proclaiming one will help anyone who understands the difference to know for themselves whether or Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. Therefore, you can know for yourself, or in effect answer your own question. Which really doesn't seem to be why you asked this question in the first place. As you so plainly stated, you were trying to see what other people think.

My purpose is to share my testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel. To proclaim that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that He lives. I testify that all can come to this knowledge for themselves. That all may have the same knowledge as the prophets who testify of Christ in the Book of Mormon and in all scripture. If someone believes differently than I do, that is OK. I do not judge them, nor am I worried their views may incorrectly influence me or others. We all have the ability to recognize truth from error.

Why is it that you feel it is your duty to point that out? Is it actually your job to point this out?

User avatar
Jake
Videre faciem Dei
Posts: 415
Location: Syracuse, UT

Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Jake »

Seek the Truth wrote: I was wondering if you could flesh this out, is it based on D&C 76 alone or are there other references.
I have to be honest Seek. Based on your comments on this thread that go around and around, and based on your history here at LDSFF, I honestly don't think you are interested in really knowing and understanding the point of view of those of us who think there is much more to the church than following the brethren. But I'll take a stab anyway at answering your question in the hopes that maybe you will accept this idea.

Consider the following scriptures:
D&C 109:41 wrote:And whatsoever city thy servants shall enter, and the people of that city receive not the testimony of thy servants, and thy servants warn them to save themselves from this untoward generation, let it be upon that city according to that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of thy prophets.
Act 22:18 wrote: And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
John 5:34 wrote:But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
In each of these quotes, as well as others from the scriptures, the subject RECEIVING the testimony is hearing it from someone else. Why would RECEIVING a testimony of Jesus be any different? In a court of law even today, when the court receives testimony, it HEARS the testimony. It does not give it to others or possess it.

Even Satan and his servants have a testimony that Jesus is the Son of God (See Matthew 8:29). That is nothing to God. What matters is what we do with the testimony we have. Act upon it, continue faithful, and in time you will RECEIVE the testimony of Jesus. But if you think possessing a testimony is enough, then great! You have just achieved all you need for exaltation and you need no more.

Post Reply