Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

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jcricket6048
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by jcricket6048 »

did Denver say that he saw Jesus Christ?

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Original_Intent
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Original_Intent »

People have talked about a test, and it will be a test of the LDS...

Not saying this is the case, but surely it seems that a good test would be the Lord sending a prophet outside of the organization, to see if people would trust the spirit or if they would stay fixated upon their traditions, that the only true messengers come thru the organization.

By the same token, the test could be having one or more charismatic individuals that try to lead people astray. I could see either being the case - How are YOU going to determine?

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Daryl
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Daryl »

Seek the Truth wrote: 1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.


Really these verses are rich with Doctrine and understanding. Keep in mind Brother Cowdery is being directly addressed by the Lord's own voice, meaning this is not a lowly levite deacon, this is someone who has indeed pierced the veil; in fact not even a year earlier he had been ministered unto by an angel, and yet still he had been deceived by Hiram Page (who in fairness was not a deceiver but was also deceived). A man visited by angels, deceived.

So he instructed that:

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations
2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph, as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)
3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter
4) He shall not command Joseph
5) It shal be so until another is appointed in his stead

Slight rewording for grammar, feel free to use your own words, point being it could be helpful to identify various points.

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.

9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—


Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

It seem like a confirmation of the earlier revelations, given 3 times.

So 3 times by the voice of the Lord and by the voice of the Prophet Joseph Smith a fairly clear picture is painted. Now, Joseph Smith taught that all may receive unlimited revelation for themselves, and may use revelation according to their office or calling, and there are many other statements on revelation, I only ask that we include these 3 in the discussion, because they are important.
Too bad Joseph Smith is dead. Since he is dead, it appears the dynamic of this revelation has changed. This passage was true for JS's day.

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Jake
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Jake »

Seek the Truth wrote:Well it's not that, I'm not sure why I would pray to see if a man was a prophet if he doesn't even claim it. In the LDS Church a man being a "testimony of Jesus" type prophet is not particularly notable, I've had many experiences where people in their calling operated in such a manner and hopefully have done the same myself;

If it comes down to his claims via 2nd Comforter, I have felt no reason to pray about it one way or the other, for a number of reasons I won't go into at this time; the only reason I make any comment is I've found quite a bit that he written as well as some of his fans that I disagree with.
[b]2 Nephi 32:7-8[/b]
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.


For those who are so sure Denver Snuffer does not speak truth, put your money where your mouth is. Kneel down and pray and ask if he speaks truth and if you can believe his words. And do it with the same spirit of humility and willingness to change if you receive a witness that you did when you asked if the Book of Mormon is true. What if he is telling the truth about what he saw? What if the Lord truly did tell him to write the words he has written? Are you afraid to ask God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not? Are you so sure you know the truth that nothing God tells you will change your mind? What if you receive a witness that he speaks truly? Are you willing to change your lives? Are you willing to change your views? Are you humble enough to admit you were wrong? What do you have to lose?

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TZONE
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by TZONE »

I just talked to a member of our ward. Apparently he was converted by Denver Snuffer as he held friday night Book of Mormon studies every week. He said Denver is completely different than he comes across in his books.

Don't judge the book by its cover.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Daryl wrote: Too bad Joseph Smith is dead. Since he is dead, it appears the dynamic of this revelation has changed. This passage was true for JS's day.
lol, good one. ;)

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BringerOfJoy
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by BringerOfJoy »

Original_Intent wrote:People have talked about a test, and it will be a test of the LDS...

Not saying this is the case, but surely it seems that a good test would be the Lord sending a prophet outside of the organization, to see if people would trust the spirit or if they would stay fixated upon their traditions, that the only true messengers come thru the organization.

By the same token, the test could be having one or more charismatic individuals that try to lead people astray. I could see either being the case - How are YOU going to determine?
Or how about BOTH? There is only one way that you CAN determine.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Videre faciem Dei wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:Well it's not that, I'm not sure why I would pray to see if a man was a prophet if he doesn't even claim it. In the LDS Church a man being a "testimony of Jesus" type prophet is not particularly notable, I've had many experiences where people in their calling operated in such a manner and hopefully have done the same myself;

If it comes down to his claims via 2nd Comforter, I have felt no reason to pray about it one way or the other, for a number of reasons I won't go into at this time; the only reason I make any comment is I've found quite a bit that he written as well as some of his fans that I disagree with.
[b]2 Nephi 32:7-8[/b]
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.


For those who are so sure Denver Snuffer does not speak truth, put your money where your mouth is. Kneel down and pray and ask if he speaks truth and if you can believe his words. And do it with the same spirit of humility and willingness to change if you receive a witness that you did when you asked if the Book of Mormon is true. What if he is telling the truth about what he saw? What if the Lord truly did tell him to write the words he has written? Are you afraid to ask God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not? Are you so sure you know the truth that nothing God tells you will change your mind? What if you receive a witness that he speaks truly? Are you willing to change your lives? Are you willing to change your views? Are you humble enough to admit you were wrong? What do you have to lose?
I don't need to go through Denver's arm of flesh to get to Christ,. I can do it on my own, nothing stands between me and God. Denver has no keys that have any bearing on me, therefore his calling or callings are a curiosity personally;

There is no shortage of people on the internet these days with similar claims, if they are all true I'm happy for those people but I cannot be saved by their experiences.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Daryl wrote:To me, this prophecy relayed by DS is not so much about the prophecy as it is about his claim. I believe DS has at times spoken with prophetic truth. I accept him as a prophet no more or less than Thomas Monson. They both have had prophetic experiences. I can accept that. Therefore, I accept DS is a servant of the Lord. That is substantial.

I believe all things. I hope all things. Time for all of us to take article of faith 13 literal. Be believing and you will be saved.
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.


Really these verses are rich with Doctrine and understanding. Keep in mind Brother Cowdery is being directly addressed by the Lord's own voice, meaning this is not a lowly levite deacon, this is someone who has indeed pierced the veil; in fact not even a year earlier he had been ministered unto by an angel, and yet still he had been deceived by Hiram Page (who in fairness was not a deceiver but was also deceived). A man visited by angels, deceived.

So he instructed that:

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations
2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph, as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)
3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter
4) He shall not command Joseph
5) It shal be so until another is appointed in his stead

Slight rewording for grammar, feel free to use your own words, point being it could be helpful to identify various points.

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.

9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—


Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

It seem like a confirmation of the earlier revelations, given 3 times.

So 3 times by the voice of the Lord and by the voice of the Prophet Joseph Smith a fairly clear picture is painted. Now, Joseph Smith taught that all may receive unlimited revelation for themselves, and may use revelation according to their office or calling, and there are many other statements on revelation, I only ask that we include these 3 in the discussion, because they are important.
I don't have a lot of time at the moment to write it all out and cite it, but my understanding of many of the things you pointed out here is VASTLY different.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by pjbrownie »

I think the phrase is awkward and I would like a little more elaboration on it before I cast dispersions at him because of this post. I do get frustrated that if you disagree with DS, people say read his books. Smacks a little priestcrafty to me. Why can't he just explain himself on his posts with or without his books.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Thomas »

Seek the Truth wrote: I don't need to go through Denver's arm of flesh to get to Christ,. I can do it on my own, nothing stands between me and God. Denver has no keys that have any bearing on me, therefore his calling or callings are a curiosity personally;
Probably the first words of yours that I am in agreement with. Denver would probably say the same thing.

ATL Wake
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by ATL Wake »

pjbrownie wrote: I do get frustrated that if you disagree with DS, people say read his books. Smacks a little priestcrafty to me. Why can't he just explain himself on his posts with or without his books.
Unfortunately we live in a world of sound bites and one liners. This is the culture we live in, so your view is understandable. However, the scriptures were intended to be studied over a lifetime. It would also make sense that truly developing a thought, idea, doctrine, or history might take more than a blog post, indeed a book, or even a series of books.

He donates his profit from the books to the church missionary fund and makes no money off them. He doesn't market them at all. The only reason you know of them is from the word of mouth. This is actually quite telling of itself. How have these books spread as they have. They must have born some type of fruit.

They idea that anyone would spend so much time writing the books that he has to make money is laughable. The target audience is so small.

davedan
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by davedan »

God is not going to test and save His Church by sending a prophet outside His Church. Babylon will fall and the only thing left standing will be Zion. As Pres Lorenzo Snow was quoted as saying in the Priesthood/ReliefSociety manual, The Church of Jesus Christ is like a ship. You may not like the people onboard but dont abandon the ship. The Ship is a good ship. The captain of the ship is good, and the ship is headed to the right destination.

Sure, the people of the Church are not perfect. We won't be perfected until the end of the Millennium when Christ presents His work to the Father.

We need to be careful not to attempt to "steady the ark". The Lord will steady His own ship through His priesthood organization.

We don't need a John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness outside the organization of the Church. The Jews at the time of Christ 1. were apostate and 2. John had the birthright and priesthood authority as the son of the High Priest.

We need to keep our eye on the majority of the Brethren and stay with the ship. Remember, it will partly be the Priesthood organization of Zion that will help save us in the Last Days. If we do not flee to Zion we will be at war with our neighbor.

So, many Gentiles claim to have God in their hearts and just cannot submit to the idea of a living prophet that may tell them what they should or shouldn't do. "I live a good life and keep the commandments, but don't be tell me to do home teaching or pay tithing or have some calling".

All this "Davidic Servant", "One Mighty and Strong" talk begins by talking about the LDS Leadership "cult of personality". But isn't this exactly what it is setting up its adherents to follow after?

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Jake
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Jake »

Seek the Truth wrote: I don't need to go through Denver's arm of flesh to get to Christ,. I can do it on my own, nothing stands between me and God. Denver has no keys that have any bearing on me, therefore his calling or callings are a curiosity personally;

There is no shortage of people on the internet these days with similar claims, if they are all true I'm happy for those people but I cannot be saved by their experiences.
Okay, let's talk specifics. When I first starting reading Snuffer's blog, I was just like you. A follow the prophet guy through and through. Then I read Passing the Heavenly Gift. I was very disturbed by the things in it, and yet the Spirit kept telling me they were true. Things like the sealing authority not being able to be passed from one man to another, that men cannot possess the fullness of the priesthood unless they receive it directly from God, that the prophet cannot lead men astray. These are specific things in Denver's book I prayed about and received a witness of the truth thereof.

You, the Strawman King, have set up a straw man. You say that you cannot be saved by their experiences, but that is not what I have challenged you to do. I challenge anyone who thinks that Denver Snuffer is lying about his experience with Christ and that the concepts he teaches in PTHG are false. I am saying for those who think these things, put your money where your mouth is. Pray about it. Receiving a witness will not save you, but it might change your mind about what is true and what isn't.

I can't speak for others, but for me, reading Denver's words have changed me for the better. I have received many spiritual blessings as a direct result of putting into practice some of the things I have learned from him. He is not the only one. Others have written great words. Besides the great prophets in the scriptures, I have learned valuable lessons from John Pontius and Blaine Yorgason. I probably owe more to the last of these than anyone else. It is not trusting in the flesh to read the experiences and advice of our fellow men. If there is nothing to be gained by others' experiences, why interact with them at all? We would be better off to commune with God in nature alone.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Thomas »

davedan wrote: Ill this "Davidic Servant", "One Mighty and Strong" talk begins by talking about the LDS Leadership "cult of personality". But isn't this exactly what it is setting up its adherents to follow after?
Christ and Isaiah prophised of this endtime servant. I don't think Snuffer is claiming to be that servant. The Lord has many servants.
Last edited by Thomas on March 4th, 2013, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

ATL Wake wrote:
pjbrownie wrote: I do get frustrated that if you disagree with DS, people say read his books. Smacks a little priestcrafty to me. Why can't he just explain himself on his posts with or without his books.
Unfortunately we live in a world of sound bites and one liners. This is the culture we live in, so your view is understandable. However, the scriptures were intended to be studied over a lifetime. It would also make sense that truly developing a thought, idea, doctrine, or history might take more than a blog post, indeed a book, or even a series of books.

He donates his profit from the books to the church missionary fund and makes no money off them. He doesn't market them at all. The only reason you know of them is from the word of mouth. This is actually quite telling of itself. How have these books spread as they have. They must have born some type of fruit.

They idea that anyone would spend so much time writing the books that he has to make money is laughable. The target audience is so small.
PJ, He also does not make $ on his books. The proceeds are donated to the missionary fund for the church.

On that note, what if he DID keep the proceeds? The 12/15 write books and they are sold for 1500x the cost of printing, and the proceeds help support them financially. Would that be considered priestcrafty?

Seek the Truth
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Videre faciem Dei wrote: Okay, let's talk specifics. When I first starting reading Snuffer's blog, I was just like you. A follow the prophet guy through and through.
I'm not sure that's the kind of guy I am. ;) At least I would not limit it to that.
Then I read Passing the Heavenly Gift. I was very disturbed by the things in it, and yet the Spirit kept telling me they were true. Things like the sealing authority not being able to be passed from one man to another, that men cannot possess the fullness of the priesthood unless they receive it directly from God, that the prophet cannot lead men astray. These are specific things in Denver's book I prayed about and received a witness of the truth thereof.

You, the Strawman King, have set up a straw man. You say that you cannot be saved by their experiences, but that is not what I have challenged you to do. I challenge anyone who thinks that Denver Snuffer is lying about his experience with Christ and that the concepts he teaches in PTHG are false. I am saying for those who think these things, put your money where your mouth is. Pray about it. Receiving a witness will not save you, but it might change your mind about what is true and what isn't.
I don't think one way or the other whether Denver is lying. I don't care about that. VFD, I have a lot of experience with people making grand claims who later back off them or flame out in spectacular fashion. As a result, I really don't want to know one way or the other, the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. Fortunately I don't need to know.
I can't speak for others, but for me, reading Denver's words have changed me for the better. I have received many spiritual blessings as a direct result of putting into practice some of the things I have learned from him. He is not the only one. Others have written great words. Besides the great prophets in the scriptures, I have learned valuable lessons from John Pontius and Blaine Yorgason. I probably owe more to the last of these than anyone else. It is not trusting in the flesh to read the experiences and advice of our fellow men. If there is nothing to be gained by others' experiences, why interact with them at all? We would be better off to commune with God in nature alone.
Well those are great questions,I've often wondered why people use the "arm of flesh" concept in the way it is used here, perhaps we can ask these questions as it continues to be used in this way; for me, I was trying it on to see how it felt. ;)

I enjoy good gospel writers as much as the next guy, and have been edified by many, the only issue with Snuffer is that I have disagreed with a number of his statements as well as some of his readers.

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Jake
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Jake »

Seek the Truth wrote: I don't think one way or the other whether Denver is lying. I don't care about that. VFD, I have a lot of experience with people making grand claims who later back off them or flame out in spectacular fashion. As a result, I really don't want to know one way or the other, the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. Fortunately I don't need to know.
Your loss. A man who claims to have followed the counsel of the scriptures and walked back into the presence of the Father is something I DO want to know about and I DO want to know if it is true. If he is telling the truth, he has some very valuable advice to give others. If he is lying, he doesn't. If someone else can do it, then I can do it too.

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Daryl
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Daryl »

Videre faciem Dei wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote: I don't need to go through Denver's arm of flesh to get to Christ,. I can do it on my own, nothing stands between me and God. Denver has no keys that have any bearing on me, therefore his calling or callings are a curiosity personally;

There is no shortage of people on the internet these days with similar claims, if they are all true I'm happy for those people but I cannot be saved by their experiences.
I wonder if King Noah's priest of the court, Alma, prayed to know if Abinadi was a true prophet.

Mosiah 11: 20 And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi [DS?]; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.

28 I command you to bring Abinadi hither, that I may slay him, for he has said these things that he might stir up my people to anger one with another, and to raise contentions among my people; therefore I will slay him.

29 Now the eyes of the people were blinded; therefore they hardened their hearts against the words of Abinadi [DS?], and they sought from that time forward to take him. And king Noah hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, and he did not repent of his evil doings.

12:14 And now, O king, behold, we are aguiltless, and thou, O king, hast not sinned; therefore, this man has lied concerning you, and he has prophesied in vain. [Who thinks or claims this about DS?]

1 And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, repented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi—

I wonder what was in the prayer of repentance Alma offered. I wonder if he asked the Lord about the truthfulness of Abinadi.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

Videre faciem Dei wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote: I don't think one way or the other whether Denver is lying. I don't care about that. VFD, I have a lot of experience with people making grand claims who later back off them or flame out in spectacular fashion. As a result, I really don't want to know one way or the other, the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. Fortunately I don't need to know.
Your loss. A man who claims to have followed the counsel of the scriptures and walked back into the presence of the Father is something I DO want to know about and I DO want to know if it is true. If he is telling the truth, he has some very valuable advice to give others. If he is lying, he doesn't. If someone else can do it, then I can do it too.
But VFD, the internet is full of people making similar claims. What is special about DS in this regard? "If someone else can do it I can do it" I learned as a child at church.

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clarkkent14
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by clarkkent14 »

Now I understand why we are under condemnation.

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Daryl
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Daryl »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Videre faciem Dei wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote: I don't think one way or the other whether Denver is lying. I don't care about that. VFD, I have a lot of experience with people making grand claims who later back off them or flame out in spectacular fashion. As a result, I really don't want to know one way or the other, the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. Fortunately I don't need to know.
Your loss. A man who claims to have followed the counsel of the scriptures and walked back into the presence of the Father is something I DO want to know about and I DO want to know if it is true. If he is telling the truth, he has some very valuable advice to give others. If he is lying, he doesn't. If someone else can do it, then I can do it too.
But VFD, the internet is full of people making similar claims. What is special about DS in this regard? "If someone else can do it I can do it" I learned as a child at church.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith.

Are you willing to "believe all things" in regards to DS? What about TM or the other 14? Would it behoove us to take Joseph Smith's words in article of faith 13 as truth? She we take them literally?

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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by Seek the Truth »

If DS saw God I am very happy for him.

I will say that I do not believe that Cows are gods as do the hindu, so no I do not believe all things. That particular verse may have different meaning.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by A Random Phrase »

Raindrop wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
So that people are free to make a choice. If it cannot be explained away, people cannot choose whether they will believe.

To everyone in general -
As to why Denver said what he did - If people can't figure it out from what he said, maybe you should ask him, instead of a bunch of people who don't know him.

Personally, to me, the post was simple, self-explanatory, not a threat to the church leaders nor anyone else.

Why make something simple so complicated?
"So that people are free to make a choice." Interesting position. For me personally, the sign of the coming of Jesus Christ (or "Lion of Judah") has no bearing on my opinion of Denver Snuffer. It simply has nothing to do with him. The Maitreya followers believe the same sign, as was pointed out. Faith does not come by signs. I'm surprised if DS was trying to imply this.

Perhaps DS should rephrase? He's usually much more precise in his wording, in my opinion.
I was simply expounding on what Brent had written. My own opinions are in the paragraphs following the first.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Denver Declares He is HIS Servant

Post by A Random Phrase »

MsEva wrote: he will say whatever the Lord wants him to say; regardless of whether people believe what he says or whom he has Identified himself to be!
Absolutely true. He fears no man, no woman, no government, no organization. Is this not the sign of a true prophet?

Another sign of a true prophet is that people hate him. They mock him. They are offended by him. They consider him apostate. The same things the people in Jesus' day considered Him.

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