The Davidic Servant

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Silver Pie
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Re: The Davidic Servant

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LukeAir2008 wrote: July 24th, 2011, 5:18 pm I think we're getting our wires crossed again here. The Davidic servant or future King David and the Mighty and Strong Servant are two different people.
That's what I was wondering as I began to read this thread and saw the conflation between the two. Two people, not one. Or, one person, not two.

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Silver Pie
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Re: The Davidic Servant

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AshleyB wrote: July 28th, 2011, 12:39 pm Ok...so this is really off topic and not really adding much value to the conversation but I was just recently in Utah at temple square for a wedding and while I was there I went inside briefly to the Family Search building and looked at some of the stuff on the wall and discovered that there are lots of famous people related to Joseph Smith...though the only one I really remember is Lucille Ball. So does that mean she is a decendent of Christ and didnt know it? I wish I could have my history done all the way back like that though I doubt I would be related to the prophet.
Even if your genealogy is done only a little, you might find the info you want on relative finder. You sign in to relative finder with your Family Search name and password. It pops up with anyone you could be related to as far as famous people/politicians and leaders of the LDS church. It's pretty cool.

There's also an LDS Freedom Forum group on relativefinder.org - I don't remember the password, and I can't find it on the site (but I'm not the owner nor an administrator). You don't chat on it, you just find out if you have any relatives in common with other LDSFFers (and since so few use their real names on here, the anonymity is still intact if we don't know who they are irl).

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Re: The Davidic Servant

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Matchmaker wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 5:15 am If the day ever comes where there is a serious division in the Church that affects even the General Authorities choosing sides, stay in the boat, and follow the Prophet. If the Prophet is mentally or physically incapacitated and unable to speak or lead, follow the majority of the twelve.
What I've been wondering is what if the president of the Church dies, leaving 14 men, and there is an even division between them? What to do then? Follow the president of the quorum of the 12? Or the two counselors to the president (supposing they are on one side and the pres of the q is on the other)?

I know the corporation's rules are that the president of the 12 becomes the next president of the Church, but what if he hasn't been sustained as such by the remaining 14 if/when there's a schism?

This is all totally theoretical. I see no signs of division now. But what about the future? 10, 20 50 100, 150 years down the road?

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Silver Pie
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Re: The Davidic Servant

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North_Star wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 7:34 am Follow Christ.
Definitely the safest thing to do. Men will always let you down. True prophets will always offend you in some way. Plus, they're human. It's important to stay close to God so that you can know what you should do and believe.

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AI2.0 wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:16 am I think part of the problem with the speculation over this "Davidic servant" is that some have been confusing and melding the ideas of the 'Davidic Servant' with the 'one mighty and strong'. We really need to go to the scriptural sources, not just parrot what people on the forum or websites claim. These are not the same person at all, but some mix them together. I think that is giving them the incorrect idea that the church is going to have a serious division and the 'one mighty and strong' is going to come straighten out the church. This is erroneous and it's been the cause of schisms in the church over the years.

The one mighty and strong is the one who is over inheritances in Jackson County--who sets these in order and gives the Saints their inheritances. The original scripture was about Edward Partridge and his role as Bishop of the church. It would seem that when we live the Law of Consecration, this scripture could also refer to the Bishop who will take charge of this responsibility.

The Davidic Servant, As I understand it, is the Messiah Ben David. I seem to recall (it's been awhile since I read on this) his name is David and he's of the tribe of Judah and a leader for the Jews. He's not going to be coming in and setting the LDS church straight, he's going to be helping the Jews before the Second Coming.
This is the kind of thing I'm wondering. So, they are two people. What key words do I look for in the scriptures to find out about these two guys? Do I look for "set in order"? Will that bring up both of them? How do I know they are two separate people?

Is Messiah ben David a real person? As in, alive right now and has that name? What's the source of your knowledge? I don't think I've ever read that name in scriptures.

All of these are honest questions. You seem like you know something. Teach me what you know.

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Re: Re:

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Silver Pie wrote: March 25th, 2017, 11:53 am
AI2.0 wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:16 am I think part of the problem with the speculation over this "Davidic servant" is that some have been confusing and melding the ideas of the 'Davidic Servant' with the 'one mighty and strong'. We really need to go to the scriptural sources, not just parrot what people on the forum or websites claim. These are not the same person at all, but some mix them together. I think that is giving them the incorrect idea that the church is going to have a serious division and the 'one mighty and strong' is going to come straighten out the church. This is erroneous and it's been the cause of schisms in the church over the years.

The one mighty and strong is the one who is over inheritances in Jackson County--who sets these in order and gives the Saints their inheritances. The original scripture was about Edward Partridge and his role as Bishop of the church. It would seem that when we live the Law of Consecration, this scripture could also refer to the Bishop who will take charge of this responsibility.

The Davidic Servant, As I understand it, is the Messiah Ben David. I seem to recall (it's been awhile since I read on this) his name is David and he's of the tribe of Judah and a leader for the Jews. He's not going to be coming in and setting the LDS church straight, he's going to be helping the Jews before the Second Coming.
This is the kind of thing I'm wondering. So, they are two people. What key words do I look for in the scriptures to find out about these two guys? Do I look for "set in order"? Will that bring up both of them? How do I know they are two separate people?

Is Messiah ben David a real person? As in, alive right now and has that name? What's the source of your knowledge? I don't think I've ever read that name in scriptures.

All of these are honest questions. You seem like you know something. Teach me what you know.
David is a very very common name given to Jewish male babies.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

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Silver Pie wrote: March 25th, 2017, 11:48 am
Matchmaker wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 5:15 am If the day ever comes where there is a serious division in the Church that affects even the General Authorities choosing sides, stay in the boat, and follow the Prophet. If the Prophet is mentally or physically incapacitated and unable to speak or lead, follow the majority of the twelve.
What I've been wondering is what if the president of the Church dies, leaving 14 men, and there is an even division between them? What to do then? Follow the president of the quorum of the 12? Or the two counselors to the president (supposing they are on one side and the pres of the q is on the other)?

I know the corporation's rules are that the president of the 12 becomes the next president of the Church, but what if he hasn't been sustained as such by the remaining 14 if/when there's a schism?

This is all totally theoretical. I see no signs of division now. But what about the future? 10, 20 50 100, 150 years down the road?
I just listened to a talk by Elder Bruce R. McConkie about this very subject, it would be worth your time to read it. He'll answer some of your questions, and maybe some you haven't thought to ask yet.

A couple of salient points he makes; When the prophet dies, the first presidency is immediately dissolved--the counselors return to their places in the quorum, so there is no option to follow the counselors. The President of the Quorum of 12 takes his place as Senior and together with the others, they call a meeting to reorganize the first Presidency--no big surprise, the senior apostle will be Prophet, but they still meet and petition Heavenly Father to know the will of God on the matter, when to reorganize, then the new Prophet chooses his counselors. This isn't just some 'corporations' rules--this is how it's been done since Brigham Young. It's how it's done in this church. There's been no schism among the church leadership each time it is done and I don't expect there to be, they understand the process and they pray for revelation--so they can witness that it is the mind and will of the Lord. You don't have problems with 'schisms' when you do it this way, so there's no reason to expect anything different in the next 200 years.

Here is the talk;

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... residency/

He gave it at BYU after Harold B. Lee died and Spencer W. Kimball became the new prophet--there's lots of interesting information in it.

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Re: Re:

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Silver Pie wrote: March 25th, 2017, 11:53 am
AI2.0 wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:16 am I think part of the problem with the speculation over this "Davidic servant" is that some have been confusing and melding the ideas of the 'Davidic Servant' with the 'one mighty and strong'. We really need to go to the scriptural sources, not just parrot what people on the forum or websites claim. These are not the same person at all, but some mix them together. I think that is giving them the incorrect idea that the church is going to have a serious division and the 'one mighty and strong' is going to come straighten out the church. This is erroneous and it's been the cause of schisms in the church over the years.

The one mighty and strong is the one who is over inheritances in Jackson County--who sets these in order and gives the Saints their inheritances. The original scripture was about Edward Partridge and his role as Bishop of the church. It would seem that when we live the Law of Consecration, this scripture could also refer to the Bishop who will take charge of this responsibility.

The Davidic Servant, As I understand it, is the Messiah Ben David. I seem to recall (it's been awhile since I read on this) his name is David and he's of the tribe of Judah and a leader for the Jews. He's not going to be coming in and setting the LDS church straight, he's going to be helping the Jews before the Second Coming.
This is the kind of thing I'm wondering. So, they are two people. What key words do I look for in the scriptures to find out about these two guys? Do I look for "set in order"? Will that bring up both of them? How do I know they are two separate people?

Is Messiah ben David a real person? As in, alive right now and has that name? What's the source of your knowledge? I don't think I've ever read that name in scriptures.

All of these are honest questions. You seem like you know something. Teach me what you know.

I can't say I know much, but for what it's worth....
I'm sure there are some real experts on this forum who may know a lot more on these subjects.

Anyway,
This is my understanding of the one mighty and strong; It comes from a reference in D&C 85. (Isaiah uses the term in Isaiah 28:2 but he's talking about something else entirely).

The first presidency in 1905 had to respond on the 'one mighty and strong' from D&C, probably because some claimants were saying the church was off course (when they ended polygamy, some refused to let it go and felt the church was in apostasy) and they were called to set it right;

This is from wikipedia;
In a 1905 statement, the First Presidency of the LDS Church—composed of Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund—offered two possible interpretations of the prophecy.

Possibility #1: Closed prophecy[edit]
First, the Presidency stated that Smith's words may have been a prophecy of what would happen if the presiding bishop of the church, Edward Partridge, failed to repent and fulfill his calling in the church:

It is to be observed first of all that the subject of this whole letter, as also the part of it subsequently accepted as a revelation, relates to the affairs of the Church in Missouri, the gathering of the Saints to that land and obtaining their inheritances under the law of consecration and stewardship; and the Prophet [Joseph Smith] deals especially with the matter of what is to become of those who fail to receive their inheritances by order or deed from the bishop. ...

It was while these conditions of rebellion, jealousy, pride, unbelief and hardness of heart prevailed among the brethren in Zion—Jackson county, Missouri—in all of which Bishop Partridge participated, that the words of the revelation taken from the letter to William W. Phelps, of the 27th of November, 1832, were written. The "man who was called and appointed of God" to "divide unto the Saints their inheritance"—Edward Partridge—was at that time out of order, neglecting his own duty, and putting "forth his hand to steady the ark"; hence, he was warned of the judgment of God impending, and the prediction was made that another, "one mighty and strong," would be sent of God to take his place, to have his bishopric—one having the spirit and power of that high office resting upon him, by which he would have power to "set in order the house of God, and arrange by lot the inheritance of the Saints"; in other words, one who would do the work that Bishop Edward Partridge had been appointed to do, but had failed to accomplish. ...

And inasmuch as through his repentance and sacrifices and suffering, Bishop Edward Partridge undoubtedly obtained a mitigation of the threatened judgment against him of falling "by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning," so the occasion for sending another to fill his station—"one mighty and strong to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints"—may also be considered as having passed away and the whole incident of the prophecy closed.[5]

Possibility #2: Prophecy of a future presiding bishop[edit]
However, the First Presidency also offered the possibility that the prophecy was not closed, and that the One Mighty and Strong would be a future presiding bishop of the church when the Latter-day Saints return to Jackson County, Missouri. Concerning this possibility, the First Presidency stated:

If, however, there are those who will still insist that the prophecy concerning the coming of "one mighty and strong" is still to be regarded as relating to the future, let the Latter-day Saints know that he will be a future bishop of the Church who will be with the Saints in Zion, Jackson county, Missouri, when the Lord shall establish them in that land; and he will be so blessed with the spirit and power of his calling that he will be able to set in order the house of God, pertaining to the department of the work under his jurisdiction; and in righteousness and justice will "arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints." He will hold the same high and exalted station that Edward Partridge held; for the latter was called to do just this kind of work—that is, to set in order the house of God pertaining to settling the Saints upon their inheritances.[5]
Since this first presidency statement, we've still seen many come forward to claim this title. It's usually in accordance with groups who think the church has 'lost it's way' and the prophet has led the people astray and they want one 'mighty and strong' to fix it. But, to say this, one has to wrest the scriptures and take this one out of context to fit their agenda.

As for the Davidic Servant, this must be Messiah Ben David, a jewish tradition. Avraham Gileadi has written on him, so he's a good source. I think some have mentioned that he has websites. I've got a couple of his books, so that's where I've read up on this figure. I don't know if he will be a real person, but it seems most Hebrew scholars and rabbis would say he is to be a real person--I think some have even suggested that he already came--he was David Ben Gurion; that's one theory at least. Gileadi believes he will be a real person--I think he expects he's already on earth. His role is to the jews and I can't think of any exclusive LDS references for him.

Then there's the Messiah Ben Joseph--another jewish tradition. Some LDS believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was this Messiah Ben Joseph and that seems a good theory to me--I think he could be the one foretold.

Here's an interesting article on him.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selections ... ben-joseph

As I've been reading these threads on the Davidic servant, Messiah Ben David, I think that some may be confusing some characteristics of the Ben Joseph with the Ben David also.

It's confusing and there's a ton of speculation on these two traditions.


And yes, Matchmaker, David is a common name among Jews--this tradition of a Messiah Ben David probably helped make it a popular name, as well as the fact that King David is one of their greatest heroes and leaders in history.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

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Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) gives the names of the seven archangels as Gabriel (Sunday), Michael (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Uriel (Wednesday), Raguel (Thursday), Remiel (Friday; he is described in the Book of Enoch as having fallen from grace, possibly replaced by Phanuel (angel), who is the fourth Archangel) and Sariel (Saturday).

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Silver Pie
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Re: The Davidic Servant

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AI2.0, thank you for the links, and thank you for the information. The D&C reference was in one of the other threads, and I studied it yesterday. It made me think that the one mighty and strong is [i[not[/i] the same person as the man in the other scripture references in the post that posted scripture references.

Davedan, I did not know that. I wish I had that book (harcopy, easier to read). I have heard so much about it.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

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Are we still looking for some warmongering leader that will take over the world? The world will fall apart. God doesn't want his people to inherit a corrupt and corrupting system. The world will end, there is not saving it.

God's true leader will be building Zion, and keep things together (order) while everything falls apart around it.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

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davedan wrote: March 29th, 2017, 1:47 am Are we still looking for some warmongering leader that will take over the world? The world will fall apart. God doesn't want his people to inherit a corrupt and corrupting system. The world will end, there is not saving it.

God's true leader will be building Zion, and keep things together (order) while everything falls apart around it.
I think you're right, davedan. Absolutely right.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

Post by James-T-Prout »

Hi AI2.0,

Thank you for your post on the Messiah Ben-David. Yes, that material has been very good.
The first time I heard of it was in a 1980s Living Scriptures production by W. Cleon Skousen when he visited Israel and expounded much.

The Thread originally was about The Davidic Servant, not so much about the current prophet passing away and what happens. So, I wanted to stick to the thread topic.

I just came over from separate thread on Ezra's Eagle /viewtopic.php?t=45489, and the subject of the Davidic Servants came up as the Ezra's Eagle Prophecy in the old King James 1611 Version of the Apocrypha shows when and where one of the last days Davidic Servants show up in the Last Days Timeline.

In Ezra's Eagle,

Image

The Eagle Kingdom has 3 phases.
  • The Flying Phase with the 3 sleeping Eagle Heads
  • The Feather Phase
  • The Awakened 3 Eagle Head Phase
The Feather Phase helps us identify The Eagle Kingdom in real history. There are 18 prophecy fulfillments already between Ezra's Eagle and The United States of America.

If the Feathers of Ezra's Eagle were laid upon the Presidents of the United States since 1929, just after the Roaring 20s, it would look something like this:

Image

You can read the free chapters that cover this topic here: https://www.lastdaystimeline.com/free-chapters/

Under the last remaining Eagle Head, a new character, The Lion Kingdom shows up on the scene to take down the Eagle Kingdom.

And this Lion Kingdom has a Davidic Servant prophet leading the way and condemns the Eagle Kingdom for it's abuse of the Meek of Heart. The Lion Kingdom takes down the Eagle Kingdom and rescues the Saints of God from the massive oppressions of the Eagle Kingdom.

Image

And at the time this Davidic Servant comes upon the scene, the wicked Eagle Kingdom is no more. HOWEVER, that's not the end.

The Eagle Kingdom is not then destroyed, but is restored to it's beginning.

This is the time when the restoration of the US Constitution takes place. This is the moment. And one of the Davidic Servants ushers it in as part of the Restoration of All Things. fun fun.

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Re: The Davidic Servant

Post by James-T-Prout »

Hi LDS Anarchist,

OK, so your question is....where in the Ezra's Eagle Prophecy does it say "restored again to his beginning beginning"?

Yes, you will need to break it out and read it again. Hopefully as I have, at least several hundred times. The connections come the more you read it.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2- ... hapter-11/

"17 As for the voice which thou heardest speak, and that thou sawest not to go out from the heads but from the midst of the body thereof, this is the interpretation:
18 That after the time of that kingdom there shall arise great strivings, and it shall stand in peril of failing: nevertheless it shall not then fall, but shall be restored again to his beginning."

This part of God's interpretation of the prophecy is showing that at the point of the Eagle Kingdom's takedown by the Lion Kingdom; there was great strivings and problems....but when the Lion shows up, the bad Eagle Kingdom is taken down and then restored again.

Image

This same prophecy is given by Joseph Smith (paraphrased) as there will be a time when the Constitution will hang by a thread and the LDS people will save it. THIS moment in the Last Days Timeline is when that prophecy comes to be fulfilled.

See this page on the LDS.org website on this Joseph Smith Quote...by about 15 of the brethren over time:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/i-ha ... n?lang=eng

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