Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

[marc]

President Benson no longer stood up to give the clarion call. His final words personally uttered in the October 1988 General conference were, as I previously quoted:

...My beloved Saints, I am now entering my ninetieth year. I am getting older and less vigorous...I do not know fully why God has preserved my life to this age, but I do know this: That for the present hour He has revealed to me the absolute need for us to move the Book of Mormon forward now in a marvelous manner. You must help with this burden and with this blessing which He has placed on the whole Church, even all the children of Zion...

...Moses never entered the promised land. Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. Some of us may not live long enough to see the day when the Book of Mormon floods the earth and when the Lord lifts His condemnation. (See D&C 84:54–58.) But, God willing, I intend to spend all my remaining days in that glorious effort. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen...https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

Thereafter, general authorities have given us words of counsel, etc, but the admonishment to remove the condemnation ceased. There was only one other time since then that any general authority spoke on the subject, which I wrote in my OP six years ago:

Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Some facts remain:

-It has been twenty-five years since any prophet or apostle has sounded that clarion call.
-No prophet or apostle has declared that the condemnation has been lifted.
-Unlike the people at Bountiful, we are an unredeemed people (collectively).
-Some few people have found rest. They have rent that veil of unbelief.

[marc]

Alma 13:11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God...

This is a significant chapter indeed! Verse 12 stands out to me. AFTER being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having been made spotless and made pure, they "entered into the rest of the Lord their God."

This is that blessing "hitherto unknown." This blessing of having to labor no more to be redeemed is what the prophets of the Book of Mormon explained and shared with us how they did it so that we can, too. Not just one or a few or even many, but rather an "exceedingly great many." What did the Nephites "know" that we don't? We must rend the veil of unbelief to "know" having faith no longer (Ether 3:19-20)

[Finrock]

Thanks, marc, for the quotes. They were very convincing to me. Clearly President Benson wanted to share with us a message that he felt was very important. In these quotes I see a prophet of God counseling us, pleading with us, and warning us. There is no doubt to me that what President Benson shared was of Christ and God and that we should not ignore this Spirit filled counsel and direction.

-Finrock

[marc]

Thanks, marc, for the quotes. They were very convincing to me. Clearly President Benson wanted to share with us a message that he felt was very important. In these quotes I see a prophet of God counseling us, pleading with us, and warning us. There is no doubt to me that what President Benson shared was of Christ and God and that we should not ignore this Spirit filled counsel and direction.

-Finrock

I have read the Book of Mormon more times that I can count anymore, and it is become more and more clear what the overarching message is. Lehi experienced it. Nephi experienced. Jacob experienced it and many more through Mormon and Moroni. But from the very beginning of this little dispensation, and though Nephi exhorted us in his final chapters, Jacob wrote even more plainly:

Jacob 1:5 For because of faith and great anxiety, it truly had been made manifest unto us concerning our people, what things should happen unto them.

6 And we also had many revelations, and the spirit of much prophecy; wherefore, we knew of Christ and his kingdom, which should come.

7 Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest, lest by any means he should swear in his wrath they should not enter in, as in the provocation in the days of temptation while the children of Israel were in the wilderness...

Lehi set the stage for all his posterity by revealing his dream of the tree of life from which one may find "rest" by "partaking" of its fruit, which fruit Nephi taught is the "love of God" and "desirable above all things" and "most joyous to the soul." President Benson hinted at this when he cited D&C 84 regarding the Israelites who refused to partake and it is what Jacob is referring to when they wandered in the wilderness. President Benson further declared that Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. And we, as the ancient Israelites, were cursed to wander in the wilderness until reaching the Salt Lake Valley unredeemed, forfeiting that "rest" offered by the Lord. Now more than ever is it important to labor diligently, strip ourselves of all ungodliness, particularly "vanity" and "unbelief," the two great stumbling blocks preventing us from being redeemed.

[Mark]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us. We can then experience what the people did at King Benjamins sermon given them.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

4 And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying: My friends and my brethren, my kindred and my people, I would again call your attention, that ye may hear and understand the remainder of my words which I shall speak unto you.

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

That joy can come to each of us as we unlock the key to the spiritual minds in all of us. The Holy Ghost is that key. Without Him our minds will stay in a state of condemnation. With Him all things are possible.

[Finrock]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us.

Mark,

I'm sure Catherine Thomas is a fine person, but with all due respect, I find it strange that you would look to her written commentary to understand the Book of Mormon and then encourage others to do the same when the Book of Mormon is there for us to understand in plainness, we have the Spirit filled words of a Prophet of Jesus Christ, and access to the Holy Ghost to reveal the truth of these things to us.

We need to be careful that we don't reject the plain message the Book of Mormon provides by finding a substitute someplace else that sounds nice and pleasing to us, but which might very well just be a way for us to justify our unbelief and/or lack of faith.

-Finrock

[marc]

Thank you, Mark. I'll look into it. I also acknowledge that it is only according to the Lord's own will and timing that I rend this veil. That said, I expect nothing less and I have a perfect brightness of hope in this because Jesus Christ promised it and cannot lie. I am okay with whatever the Lord decides for me. I trust Him completely.

[drtanner]

Marc,

Thank you!!! I agree completely with Finrock,This was absolutly wonderful to go through and feel of President Benson's passion and prophetic counsel for us regarding the Book of Mormon!

I also love this from President Nelson in the last conference when he met with a King in Ghana,

"I opened it to 3 Nephi chapter 11, and together the king and I read the Savior’s sermon to the Nephites. I then presented the copy of the Book of Mormon to him." His response lodged in my mind and heart forever: “You could have given me diamonds or rubies, but nothing is more precious to me than this additional knowledge about the Lord Jesus Christ.”

After experiencing the power of the Savior’s words in 3 Nephi, the king proclaimed, “If I am converted and join the Church, I will bring my whole tribe with me.”

President Nelson goes on to say:

"My brothers and sisters, how precious is the Book of Mormon to you? If you were offered diamonds or rubies or the Book of Mormon, which would you choose? Honestly, which is of greater worth to you?....

Something powerful happens when a child of God seeks to know more about Him and His Beloved Son. Nowhere are those truths taught more clearly and powerfully than in the Book of Mormon."

"My dear brothers and sisters, I testify that the Book of Mormon is truly the word of God. It contains the answers to life’s most compelling questions. It teaches the doctrine of Christ. It expands and clarifies many of the “plain and precious” truths that were lost through centuries of time and numerous translations of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon provides the fullest and most authoritative understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to be found anywhere. It teaches what it really means to be born again. From the Book of Mormon we learn about the gathering of scattered Israel. We know why we are here on earth. These and other truths are more powerfully and persuasively taught in the Book of Mormon than in any other book. The full power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon. Period".

"It abolishes forever the false concepts that revelation ended with the Bible and that the heavens are sealed today".

"Whenever I hear anyone, including myself, say, “I know the Book of Mormon is true,” I want to exclaim, “That’s nice, but it is not enough!” We need to feel, deep in “the inmost part” of our hearts,that the Book of Mormon is unequivocally the word of God. We must feel it so deeply that we would never want to live even one day without it. I might paraphrase President Brigham Young in saying, “I wish I had the voice of seven thunders to wake up the people” to the truth and power of the Book of Mormon."

"This is the book that will help to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord."

[Mark]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us.

Mark,

I'm sure Catherine Thomas is a fine person, but with all due respect, I find it strange that you would look to her written commentary to understand the Book of Mormon and then encourage others to do the same when the Book of Mormon is there for us to understand in plainness, we have the Spirit filled words of a Prophet of Jesus Christ, and access to the Holy Ghost to reveal the truth of these things to us.

We need to be careful that we don't reject the plain message the Book of Mormon provides by finding a substitute someplace else that sounds nice and pleasing to us, but which might very well just be a way for us to justify our unbelief and/or lack of faith.

-Finrock

Do you think I am talking about some kind of substitute here Finrock to justify unbelief and lack of faith? Go read what happened to King Benjamins people again. Verse 3 tells the story. Being filled with the Holy Ghost they experienced a remission of their sins and a peace of conscience which then as verse 20 states filled them with exceeding great joy that they could not find utterance. Do you think they were under any type of condemnation because they had not yet been brought into the presence of the Lord? I think maybe there is some looking beyond the mark here. These people rended the veil of unbelief as a result of this spiritual baptism that they experienced. This was not some kind of nice sounding substitute for coming into the Lords presence. We are talking about 2 different things here. Having ones calling and election made sure and receiving the more sure word of prophesy is in essence to have the day of judgement advanced in ones life so that the inheritance of glory in the Fathers kingdom is assured and there are no more conditions to be met. It is not the necessary requirement for rending the veil of unbelief and removing any condemnation because of ones unbelief and/or lack of faith. I like this from a talk given by Roy Doxey titled Accepted of the Lord:

"The influence of the Holy Ghost received by keeping the commandments also leads one to sanctification, or becoming holy and pure in heart, which involves forsaking all evil and learning to “love and serve God with all [our] mights, minds, and strength.” (D&C 20:31.) The process of sanctification comes gradually, over a long period of time, “overcoming every sin and bringing all into subjection to the law of Christ.” (Brigham Young, JD, 10:173.) It means yielding one’s heart to God, becoming one with the Savior in building his kingdom, and working for the eventual establishment of Zion. (See Hel. 3:35.) The member of the Church prepares himself by striving for sanctification; and when he has become just through the ratifying of his covenants by the Holy Ghost, and in the sight of the Lord has sanctified his life, he is a candidate for having his calling and election made sure.

From the Prophet Joseph Smith we learn that the faith necessary to become sanctified and make one’s calling and election sure is gained through strict obedience to the law of sacrifice:

“From the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.” (Lectures on Faith, 6:58; see also D&C 98:11–15 and Teachings, p. 322.)

Going back to section 84 again where the Lord said:
54 And your MINDS in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received..

THE Lord then called upon the Saints accordingly:
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your MINDS in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

THE Lord offers forgiveness and a removal of any condemnation to ANY Saint if they remain steadfast in their "SPIRITUAL" MINDS in the spirit of Prayer and the bearing of testimony riding oneself of the blood and sins of this generation. Sanctification comes as a result of the Holy Ghost changing that Natural mind which is nothing more than a delusional thought system based on the fallen man to the Spiritual mind which is filled with light and truth.That is the key to pleasing the Lord and overcoming the Natural Man which is an enemy to God unleashed in us all. We can't do it without the Holy Ghost. Period. He is the key.

[marc]

Mark, what happened with the people at the temple in Zarahemla as they received a remission of their sins was they entered in at the gate (2 Nephi 31). The joy they experienced from having received the Holy Ghost was the beginning of their journey, having been made clean and having taken upon themselves the name of Christ (new name). In contrast, what happened with the people at the temple in Bountiful was they received the Savior while in the flesh (2 Nephi 32), or in other words, having partaken of the fruit of the tree of life, they found "rest." The people at Zarahemla's joy was from receiving the first comforter, which is good-very good and essential. The people at Bountiful's joy was from receiving the second comforter, which is the end goal. These two key events, centuries apart, give us the complete picture of the journey symbolized in Lehi's vision of the tree of life.

[AI2.0]

President Benson no longer stood up to give the clarion call. His final words personally uttered in the October 1988 General conference were, as I previously quoted:

...My beloved Saints, I am now entering my ninetieth year. I am getting older and less vigorous...I do not know fully why God has preserved my life to this age, but I do know this: That for the present hour He has revealed to me the absolute need for us to move the Book of Mormon forward now in a marvelous manner. You must help with this burden and with this blessing which He has placed on the whole Church, even all the children of Zion...

...Moses never entered the promised land. Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. Some of us may not live long enough to see the day when the Book of Mormon floods the earth and when the Lord lifts His condemnation. (See D&C 84:54–58.) But, God willing, I intend to spend all my remaining days in that glorious effort. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen...https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

Thereafter, general authorities have given us words of counsel, etc, but the admonishment to remove the condemnation ceased. There was only one other time since then that any general authority spoke on the subject, which I wrote in my OP six years ago:

Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Some facts remain:

-It has been twenty-five years since any prophet or apostle has sounded that clarion call.
-No prophet or apostle has declared that the condemnation has been lifted.
-Unlike the people at Bountiful, we are an unredeemed people (collectively).
-Some few people have found rest. They have rent that veil of unbelief.

It's interesting to note that with Pres. Benson, he was still the Prophet, leading the church for several years after the last time he spoke in General Conference. It was due to a stroke that kept him from being able to speak (it didn't stop him from having his talks read in General Conference--one of his very best on Pride was given this way) and his many health problems which plagued his last years serving as Prophet. Do you not think that if the Lord had wanted Pres. Benson to be able to give this 'clarion call' of condemnation, etc, don't you think the Lord could have blessed him with the ability to overcome the things that kept him from fulfilling his calling? Because if we truly believe that the Lord leads this church, then he can make sure his Prophet is healthy enough to deliver his message, I would think.

And, if the Lord wants to tell the church we are under condemnation, it's pretty easy. He has a prophet who can give this message, and the message can be given every time he addresses us.

President Ezra Taft Benson (Nov. 10, 1985, to May 30, 1994), after suffering a heart attack in mid-October 1987, spoke in both the opening and priesthood sessions of the subsequent general conference in April 1988. However, President Hinckley, then first counselor in the church’s First Presidency, read President Benson's closing remarks in the Sunday afternoon session, and President Benson wouldn’t speak himself in general conference again.

While President McKay used his sons to convey conference messages, President Benson’s counselors continued to do the same for him in subsequent years as poor health first limited his general conference attendance and then ultimately precluded it.

President Benson’s well-known “Beware of Pride” conference talk was actually read by President Hinckley in the opening session of the April 1989 general conference, with President Monson, then the second counselor in the First Presidency, reading the closing-session remarks. The two continued to speak on behalf of President Benson in subsequent conferences, reading talks attributed to him, paying tribute to him or sharing previous talks or quotes from him.

In October 1990 and at the age of 91, he was hospitalized in satisfactory condition with a subdural hematoma and gastrointestinal bleeding, missing general conference for the first time in his presidential tenure. He returned to attending all or part of the morning sessions of general conferences in 1991 and April 1992, but did not attend sessions again beginning in October 1992 until his death.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... speak.html

[Arenera]

President Benson no longer stood up to give the clarion call. His final words personally uttered in the October 1988 General conference were, as I previously quoted:

...My beloved Saints, I am now entering my ninetieth year. I am getting older and less vigorous...I do not know fully why God has preserved my life to this age, but I do know this: That for the present hour He has revealed to me the absolute need for us to move the Book of Mormon forward now in a marvelous manner. You must help with this burden and with this blessing which He has placed on the whole Church, even all the children of Zion...

...Moses never entered the promised land. Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. Some of us may not live long enough to see the day when the Book of Mormon floods the earth and when the Lord lifts His condemnation. (See D&C 84:54–58.) But, God willing, I intend to spend all my remaining days in that glorious effort. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen...https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

Thereafter, general authorities have given us words of counsel, etc, but the admonishment to remove the condemnation ceased. There was only one other time since then that any general authority spoke on the subject, which I wrote in my OP six years ago:

Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Some facts remain:

-It has been twenty-five years since any prophet or apostle has sounded that clarion call.
-No prophet or apostle has declared that the condemnation has been lifted.
-Unlike the people at Bountiful, we are an unredeemed people (collectively).
-Some few people have found rest. They have rent that veil of unbelief.

It's interesting to note that with Pres. Benson, he was still the Prophet, leading the church for several years after the last time he spoke in General Conference. It was due to a stroke that kept him from being able to speak (it didn't stop him from having his talks read in General Conference--one of his very best on Pride was given this way) and his many health problems which plagued his last years serving as Prophet. Do you not think that if the Lord had wanted Pres. Benson to be able to give this 'clarion call' of condemnation, etc, don't you think the Lord could have blessed him with the ability to overcome the things that kept him from fulfilling his calling? Because if we truly believe that the Lord leads this church, then he can make sure his Prophet is healthy enough to deliver his message, I would think.

And, if the Lord wants to tell the church we are under condemnation, it's pretty easy. He has a prophet who can give this message, and the message can be given every time he addresses us.

President Ezra Taft Benson (Nov. 10, 1985, to May 30, 1994), after suffering a heart attack in mid-October 1987, spoke in both the opening and priesthood sessions of the subsequent general conference in April 1988. However, President Hinckley, then first counselor in the church’s First Presidency, read President Benson's closing remarks in the Sunday afternoon session, and President Benson wouldn’t speak himself in general conference again.

While President McKay used his sons to convey conference messages, President Benson’s counselors continued to do the same for him in subsequent years as poor health first limited his general conference attendance and then ultimately precluded it.

President Benson’s well-known “Beware of Pride” conference talk was actually read by President Hinckley in the opening session of the April 1989 general conference, with President Monson, then the second counselor in the First Presidency, reading the closing-session remarks. The two continued to speak on behalf of President Benson in subsequent conferences, reading talks attributed to him, paying tribute to him or sharing previous talks or quotes from him.

In October 1990 and at the age of 91, he was hospitalized in satisfactory condition with a subdural hematoma and gastrointestinal bleeding, missing general conference for the first time in his presidential tenure. He returned to attending all or part of the morning sessions of general conferences in 1991 and April 1992, but did not attend sessions again beginning in October 1992 until his death.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... speak.html

I would pay attention to the upcoming conference. Listen to President Nelson, our living prophet.

[marc]

I loved President Benson. I loved listening to his tenor voice. I can still hear him saying, "read the Book of Mormon!" I don't even know how many Books of Mormon I passed out in Germany my two years. There were sooo many families that had taken time to donate books with their pictures and testimonies inside the cover. Whether it was President Benson or President Hinckley who read the words, it was the same to me. I have read the Book of Mormon probably 115 times in my life, having spent two years studying the Isaiah chapters alone, and I am still reading it and making connections. Whether the condemnation is lifted from the church in my lifetime or not, I am endeavoring in my own life to do so and part of it has been the need to share this message just as Nephi and Jacob did and all the others throughout the Book of Mormon--to flood the earth with its important message and invitation.

[AI2.0]

[This is a pretty old thread, I thought it would be best to start by looking at your initial posting to be clear on what is being asked;]

I have been trying to share a message on this forum about coming to Christ and I have not been alone. A few others have expressed the same desire and I believe this effort has begun to gain a little traction. By coming unto Christ, I mean making our calling and election sure, that we may receive the Second Comforter as two thousand five hundred Nephites and Lamanites did when Christ visited them and gave them the fullness of the gospel. Let me preface this with a single scripture, which is a revelation given to Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ:

[So, first question. You are positing that the 2,500 who saw christ, in the flesh when he appeared in the Americas, received their second comforter/calling and election. To be honest, I've never thought of it this way. I've always perceived Calling and Election as something very personal and to be experienced on an individual basis. I looked at this event as more in line with appearances of Jesus Christ to groups and crowds, such as the 500, which happened during the time after his resurrection in the Old World. He shared the same messages with Nephites and he healed the sick, something he had done when he was among the Jews. So, I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of a mass 'calling/election/second comforter' experience. I won't say that I disagree with you, I just feel I need to study and ponder it, pray and read the scriptural accounts etc., before I come to a conclusion on this.]

D&C 84

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written...

[So, let's be clear, that the condemnation was for taking the Book of Mormon lightly, for continuing to rely more on the Bible. If you look at statistics, this pattern did continue in general in the church up until Pres. Benson's call to use the Book of Mormon as it was meant to be used, by the church.]

Now let me offer some background. The Book of Mormon, even the marvelous work and a wonder,[I have always felt that the marvelous work and wonder was not only the Book of Mormon, but the restoration of the Gospel as well.] of which Isaiah prophesied generations before Lehi left Jerusalem, was prepared to come forth from the foundation of the world. Gaining an understanding of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5 is a huge plus and will give perspective regarding its timeline, the various phases of the scattering and gathering, the role of the Nephites/Lamanites as the remnant of Joseph and their importance in the ushering in of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel and Christ's church. A part of this happened as far back as the time of the tower of Babel where a small group of people led by Jared and his brother, who spoke face to face with Jesus Christ:

Ether 4

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.

3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

So the brother of Jared saw everything from the beginning to the end but was forbidden to write it all down for us[to clarify, he did write it down, but he sealed it up. It was for John the Revelator to write it and it would be available to us, but the sealed portion would not come forward until we are 'clean' and display the faith of Moriancumr.] because Jesus Christ knew that we as a church would take this gift lightly.[This is conjecture. Jesus Christ knew we as a church would not be prepared to receive the sealed portion until we are ready and able to receive. I think he withholds it because this kind of knowledge is not offered to to those of lesser faith. It can't come to the church collectively until we are on a higher spiritual level.] Even Nephi saw everything from beginning to end but was forbidden to write it down because of the condemnation that we, today, would be under because of our pride, vanity and unbelief:

2 Nephi 32

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

[Verse six is referring to when Christ will 'manifest himself' unto them 'in the flesh' when he appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection. Resurrection was a BIG deal, this is what was important--that Christ had overcome death and taken on the sins of the world and he'd done it so that we could also live again after death. He's not saying that you don't get any more doctrine until you are worthy enough to have a spiritual manifestation of Christ, as some here insist is necessary for being saved in the Celestial kingdom. Because of Snuffer's introduction of this false doctrine, I believe it means that some misinterpret these scriptures.]

So both the brother of Jared and Nephi did not write down all that was given them while in the flesh[I don't think that's accurate. Moriancumr DID write it down, it is the sealed portion. Nephi probably did not, because it wasn't his stewardship to write it--it was M's and John the Revelator's. stewardship and mission to do so.] and so God's people had to wait until He manifested Himself unto them. And so He did. And He appeared to them in the land of Bountiful and taught them many great things. [Yes, he did teach them many great things and many of the things are written in our Book of Mormon and Our New Testament.]

3 Nephi 26

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

So Joseph Smith was commanded to translate the Book of Mormon, but he was also commanded NOT to touch the sealed portion. And so begins the mission of the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the house of Israel, to gather in the covenant people, both of birth and adoption (ALL OF US).

It has been stated in other threads that our church is no longer under condemnation. Well if that is so, then it must also needs be that we have received all the remainder of the revelations that Jesus Christ promised us. [I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The church was under condemnation because they were taking the Book of Mormon lightly, in other words, they weren't reading it, studying it, feasting on it, expounding on it, using it to witness and testify and learning from it, how to come unto Christ.] Do we have them? Is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon available to all the members of the church and to the world?[It's not, but it's not because we are under condemnation. We don't get the sealed portion until the time is right and the members are prepared, and can exercise faith like Moriancumr's faith. Many members are not to this point, they won't be for awhile and yes, it holds us all back, but that's to be expected. That's why we are to love and serve one another, teach and preach, to help raise all of us up and prepare us for better things, more light, more wisdom, greater manifestations of the spirit and miracles.] Has any prophet, apostle or any general authority declared that our condemnation has been lifted and we have cause to rejoice? What did President Ezra Taft Benson have to say about this back in 1986?

President Ezra Taft Benson:

My beloved brethren and sisters, today I would like to speak about one of the most significant gifts given to the world in modern times. The gift I am thinking of is more important than any of the inventions that have come out of the industrial and technological revolutions. This is a gift of greater value to mankind than even the many wonderful advances we have seen in modern medicine. It is of greater worth to mankind than the development of flight or space travel. I speak of the gift of the Book of Mormon, given to mankind 156 years ago...

This gift was prepared by the hand of the Lord over a period of more than a thousand years, then hidden up by Him so that it would be preserved in its purity for our generation. Perhaps there is nothing that testifies more clearly of the importance of this modern book of scripture than what the Lord Himself has said about it...

Think of that in terms of what it implies. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon preceded the restoration of the priesthood. It was published just a few days before the Church was organized. The Saints were given the Book of Mormon to read before they were given the revelations outlining such great doctrines as the three degrees of glory, celestial marriage, or work for the dead. It came before priesthood quorums and Church organization. Doesn’t this tell us something about how the Lord views this sacred work?...

In 1832, as some early missionaries returned from their fields of labor, the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. As a result of that attitude, he said, their minds had been darkened. Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...

If the early Saints were rebuked for treating the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same? The Lord Himself bears testimony that it is of eternal significance. Can a small number of us bring the whole Church under condemnation because we trifle with sacred things? What will we say at the Judgment when we stand before Him and meet His probing gaze if we are among those described as forgetting the new covenant?...

The Book of Mormon: Keystone of our Religion

[He was absolutely right and we were, as a whole, treating it lightly, but since then, we have changed our focus--a lot has happened in the last 30 years to put the Book of Mormon as the center of our Faith and a big part of it.]

He goes on to tell us why we need to take the Book of Mormon seriously. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Again, I ask, has any prophet since Ezra Taft Benson declared that we are no longer under condemnation? My answer to that is NO. Not one prophet, apostle, president, or any general authority has revealed such. There are many layers of truth in the Book of Mormon, which DOES contain the fullness of the gospel:[ That temple meeting was back in 87. I wonder if you asked Pres. Oaks what he thinks now, would he have a more positive outlook? Personally, I'd say yes. I know I've heeded the constant call to us to read and ponder, study daily this magnificent book. Remember Pres. Monson's last words to us were to admonish us once again to read and study the Book of Mormon. I've referred to his remarks many times, in Sunday school classes and when teaching and in our Family home evenings. I don't think I am out of the ordinary--I think many devout members do the same.]

D&C 20

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

Two thousand, five hundred Nephites and Lamanites had their calling and election made sure and received the Second Comforter. They brought forth fruit meet for repentance and they gained their salvation:

3 Nephi 27

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.

This brings me back full circle to what Nephi, the brother of Jared, these Nephites and Lamanites and many others in the Book of Mormon all witnessed. And we can have the same thing today. This is what some people like Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, John Pontius and more and more members of the church are testifying about.[This was back, years ago when you wrote this, Snuffer was not excommunicated yet, Amonhi wasn't banished to OuterDarkness and John Pontius was still alive, I believe. But, it does show that you were being influenced by Snuffer who broke with the church four years ago. Amonhi...personally, I don't trust anything he writes. John Pontius, I really love his book about his own personal writings, but Visions of Glory--is a conundrum. At this time, Julie Rowe is using his book to flesh out her supposed visions of the future, so I'd say the 'fruits' of that book are iffy.] I should hope that everyone say, "I know Jesus Christ lives. I have seen him."[Of course that's what we want, but you need to realize that all members are not on the same spiritual level and commitment. If they can't say this, does that mean their humble testimonies of belief are of no value? Of course not, Jesus said more blessed were those who had NOT seen and yet, believed in him. I think you and some of those influenced by Snuffer forget this, or you just dismiss it. Either way, it means that a simple testimony borne by pure faith is not valued, if they can't point to a grand theophany of seeing Jesus in the Flesh. And the worst, if the belief that it is required for entrance in the Celestial Kingdom, when the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that Baptism is entrance into that Kingdom. Ironic that we are talking about taking the Book of Mormon lightly, that some do so, but disregarding it's simple, plain precious truths contained within for Snuffer's cruel false doctrine.] Should our general authorities be the only ones who can make such a claim?[Who said they were? Who says that, marc? I don't know anyone who says that or believes that--it's a strawman argument.] I should hope to hear them even say it. Each and every one of us can have the condemnation removed from us by seeking the Lord, by coming unto Jesus Christ,[And we do so by reading, studying, pondering the Book of Mormon. THAT is how we come to know the Lord, through it's pages. To see him in the flesh, to make are calling and election sure, is the culmination of a life of living in such a manner that we prove that we 'know' him by doing his works, obeying his commands, etc. The 'condemnation' isn't removed by receiving calling and election (which is what we strive for) but by learning of Christ through our commitment to read,study, ponder, share the Book of Mormon.] that He may tell us that our names are written in heaven, never to be blotted out again. This is what Zenos was telling us in Jacob 5. The Lord of the vineyard labors diligently even today to grown and bring forth fruit unto Himself. This fruit is all of us. We are the olives of this allegory. It's up to us to decide whether we will be laid up against the season as good fruit[good fruit is 'good work's. Evil fruit is 'evil works'. That's what our Lord would have us do, obey his commands, love and serve others and bring forth good fruit.] or to be cast into the fire as evil fruit. The last thought I leave to the reader is what Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ have both testified:

"Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves; by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it." --Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 299.

[Exactly. Calling and Election is what we strive for, and to receive it, we must obtain the truth, which comes through the fullness of the Gospel, which we have in the church, be obedient to the Lord's commandments, study the Savior and his words, exercise faith, practice works and develop charity for those around us. Serve. Then wait patiently and humbly to obtain that promise.]

D&C 93

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[Yep, that's just what I've been saying.]

Why procrastinate the day of our repentance and HOPE that when we stand to be judged, we have done enough, when we can start NOW and seek the Lord NOW. Who would NOT want to visit with Jesus Christ in THIS life and know that He has accepted our sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and given us the greatest gift that can be given? This is the whole point of the creation and His atonement!

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[Good counsel, Marc, thanks for sharing; We should not procrastinate the day of our repentance, and shouldn't wait to get our lives in order, but should do so now. Repent, have faith, love the Lord, serve him with all our hearts, learn of him. Come unto him by learning of his ways, his life, his works and pattern our lives after him, receive his ordinances, make covenants, be faithful in keeping them. If we do this and wait patiently upon the Lord, we will receive our reward.]

[marc]

AI2.0, thank you for your thoughtful comments. There was indeed a time when I dove into all the books available, be it by Pontius, Snuffer, Gileadi and more. I even read one of Julie's books, but I gave it away as I did one of my favorite Pontius books. I took what I needed from each and I'm grateful for learning from their experiences and their mistakes. Of course, I am far from perfect and my journey is my own. The only thing that matters to me now is serving and loving others while waiting upon the Lord that in His own due time, if He sees fit, I may rend this veil of unbelief. To me, these two endeavors epitomize the two great commandments in the law.

[AI2.0]

AI2.0, thank you for your thoughtful comments. There was indeed a time when I dove into all the books available, be it by Pontius, Snuffer, Gileadi and more. I even read one of Julie's books, but I gave it away as I did one of my favorite Pontius books. I took what I needed from each and I'm grateful for learning from their experiences and their mistakes. Of course, I am far from perfect and my journey is my own. The only thing that matters to me now is serving and loving others while waiting upon the Lord that in His own due time, if He sees fit, I may rend this veil of unbelief. To me, these two endeavors epitomize the two great commandments in the law.

Marc, I don't know you in person, but I can say that I've always seen you as a humble follower of the Savior. I don't agree with your decision to be rebaptized, but because of what you share on the forum, I feel that you did it because you sincerely thought it was what the Lord wanted. I can't fault you for that.

The book I read by John Pontius was 'Journey to the Veil' and it was really a worthwhile book. I borrowed it, but feel it is one worth buying. While I'm conflicted about Visions of Glory, I still think it was worthwhile to read.

[Finrock]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us.

Mark,

I'm sure Catherine Thomas is a fine person, but with all due respect, I find it strange that you would look to her written commentary to understand the Book of Mormon and then encourage others to do the same when the Book of Mormon is there for us to understand in plainness, we have the Spirit filled words of a Prophet of Jesus Christ, and access to the Holy Ghost to reveal the truth of these things to us.

We need to be careful that we don't reject the plain message the Book of Mormon provides by finding a substitute someplace else that sounds nice and pleasing to us, but which might very well just be a way for us to justify our unbelief and/or lack of faith.

-Finrock

Do you think I am talking about some kind of substitute here Finrock to justify unbelief and lack of faith? Go read what happened to King Benjamins people again. Verse 3 tells the story. Being filled with the Holy Ghost they experienced a remission of their sins and a peace of conscience which then as verse 20 states filled them with exceeding great joy that they could not find utterance. Do you think they were under any type of condemnation because they had not yet been brought into the presence of the Lord? I think maybe there is some looking beyond the mark here. These people rended the veil of unbelief as a result of this spiritual baptism that they experienced. This was not some kind of nice sounding substitute for coming into the Lords presence. We are talking about 2 different things here. Having ones calling and election made sure and receiving the more sure word of prophesy is in essence to have the day of judgement advanced in ones life so that the inheritance of glory in the Fathers kingdom is assured and there are no more conditions to be met. It is not the necessary requirement for rending the veil of unbelief and removing any condemnation because of ones unbelief and/or lack of faith. I like this from a talk given by Roy Doxey titled Accepted of the Lord:

"The influence of the Holy Ghost received by keeping the commandments also leads one to sanctification, or becoming holy and pure in heart, which involves forsaking all evil and learning to “love and serve God with all [our] mights, minds, and strength.” (D&C 20:31.) The process of sanctification comes gradually, over a long period of time, “overcoming every sin and bringing all into subjection to the law of Christ.” (Brigham Young, JD, 10:173.) It means yielding one’s heart to God, becoming one with the Savior in building his kingdom, and working for the eventual establishment of Zion. (See Hel. 3:35.) The member of the Church prepares himself by striving for sanctification; and when he has become just through the ratifying of his covenants by the Holy Ghost, and in the sight of the Lord has sanctified his life, he is a candidate for having his calling and election made sure.

From the Prophet Joseph Smith we learn that the faith necessary to become sanctified and make one’s calling and election sure is gained through strict obedience to the law of sacrifice:

“From the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.” (Lectures on Faith, 6:58; see also D&C 98:11–15 and Teachings, p. 322.)

Going back to section 84 again where the Lord said:
54 And your MINDS in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received..

THE Lord then called upon the Saints accordingly:
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your MINDS in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

THE Lord offers forgiveness and a removal of any condemnation to ANY Saint if they remain steadfast in their "SPIRITUAL" MINDS in the spirit of Prayer and the bearing of testimony riding oneself of the blood and sins of this generation. Sanctification comes as a result of the Holy Ghost changing that Natural mind which is nothing more than a delusional thought system based on the fallen man to the Spiritual mind which is filled with light and truth.That is the key to pleasing the Lord and overcoming the Natural Man which is an enemy to God unleashed in us all. We can't do it without the Holy Ghost. Period. He is the key.

No doubt we must obtain the Spirit. Being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, or said another way, being converted (not just a testimony), being born again, having a mighty change of heart, is entering in at the gate and we are now on the path. But, receiving the Holy Ghost is just the beginning:

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

These scriptures encapsulate the whole.

-Finrock

[marc]

Marc, I don't know you in person, but I can say that I've always seen you as a humble follower of the Savior. I don't agree with your decision to be rebaptized, but because of what you share on the forum, I feel that you did it because you sincerely thought it was what the Lord wanted. I can't fault you for that.

The book I read by John Pontius was 'Journey to the Veil' and it was really a worthwhile book. I borrowed it, but feel it is one worth buying. While I'm conflicted about Visions of Glory, I still think it was worthwhile to read.

Thank you for your kind words. That experience and others were definitely leaps of faith, which resulted in unexpected tangible blessings, one of which was a revelation, which I shared on my blog: Faith (and fear). I don't fear like I used to. Perfect love casts out all fear. My journey is not over, though, so I will still look both ways before I cross the street and I always put my seat belt on. A couple years ago my wife developed degenerative disk disease and was bed ridden for months. After a number of doctor visits and various treatments, I prayed and pleaded with the Lord to allow me to heal her.

One morning, I felt approved and I laid my hands on her and rebuked her disease. She hesitated to let me heal her because she wasn't sure she had enough faith to be healed. I told her that I had enough faith for the both of us. Today, she is no longer bed ridden and has no pain in her back, has no problem shoveling snow or doing her normal activities. It gave her the confidence to ask me to heal her again after having experienced a root canal, which didn't heal. The morning she asked, I prayed and asked the Lord for His approval before laying my hands on her. Again, I rebuked her affliction. That evening, she was so happy. Her pain was gone. She told me that her pain was so severe in her root canal that she felt it shooting up into her eye.

Was my decision to be rebaptized right or wrong? I believe it was right, but I don't know. I won't know until after the trial of my faith. What I DO know is the Lord is aware of my desire to be precisely obedient to Him and accept correction and chastisement whenever He sees fit to offer it. It has also given me the assurance that if I misstep, the Lord will catch me as He did Peter whose faith faltered and began to sink in the water after stepping out of the boat. And the fruits of my faith are manifest in the blessings of healing my dear wife. Thus, I know that the Lord is still with me.

[Zathura]

[This is a pretty old thread, I thought it would be best to start by looking at your initial posting to be clear on what is being asked;]

I have been trying to share a message on this forum about coming to Christ and I have not been alone. A few others have expressed the same desire and I believe this effort has begun to gain a little traction. By coming unto Christ, I mean making our calling and election sure, that we may receive the Second Comforter as two thousand five hundred Nephites and Lamanites did when Christ visited them and gave them the fullness of the gospel. Let me preface this with a single scripture, which is a revelation given to Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ:

[So, first question. You are positing that the 2,500 who saw christ, in the flesh when he appeared in the Americas, received their second comforter/calling and election. To be honest, I've never thought of it this way. I've always perceived Calling and Election as something very personal and to be experienced on an individual basis. I looked at this event as more in line with appearances of Jesus Christ to groups and crowds, such as the 500, which happened during the time after his resurrection in the Old World. He shared the same messages with Nephites and he healed the sick, something he had done when he was among the Jews. So, I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of a mass 'calling/election/second comforter' experience. I won't say that I disagree with you, I just feel I need to study and ponder it, pray and read the scriptural accounts etc., before I come to a conclusion on this.]

D&C 84

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written...

[So, let's be clear, that the condemnation was for taking the Book of Mormon lightly, for continuing to rely more on the Bible. If you look at statistics, this pattern did continue in general in the church up until Pres. Benson's call to use the Book of Mormon as it was meant to be used, by the church.]

Now let me offer some background. The Book of Mormon, even the marvelous work and a wonder,[I have always felt that the marvelous work and wonder was not only the Book of Mormon, but the restoration of the Gospel as well.] of which Isaiah prophesied generations before Lehi left Jerusalem, was prepared to come forth from the foundation of the world. Gaining an understanding of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5 is a huge plus and will give perspective regarding its timeline, the various phases of the scattering and gathering, the role of the Nephites/Lamanites as the remnant of Joseph and their importance in the ushering in of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel and Christ's church. A part of this happened as far back as the time of the tower of Babel where a small group of people led by Jared and his brother, who spoke face to face with Jesus Christ:

Ether 4

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.

3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

So the brother of Jared saw everything from the beginning to the end but was forbidden to write it all down for us[to clarify, he did write it down, but he sealed it up. It was for John the Revelator to write it and it would be available to us, but the sealed portion would not come forward until we are 'clean' and display the faith of Moriancumr.] because Jesus Christ knew that we as a church would take this gift lightly.[This is conjecture. Jesus Christ knew we as a church would not be prepared to receive the sealed portion until we are ready and able to receive. I think he withholds it because this kind of knowledge is not offered to to those of lesser faith. It can't come to the church collectively until we are on a higher spiritual level.] Even Nephi saw everything from beginning to end but was forbidden to write it down because of the condemnation that we, today, would be under because of our pride, vanity and unbelief:

2 Nephi 32

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

[Verse six is referring to when Christ will 'manifest himself' unto them 'in the flesh' when he appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection. Resurrection was a BIG deal, this is what was important--that Christ had overcome death and taken on the sins of the world and he'd done it so that we could also live again after death. He's not saying that you don't get any more doctrine until you are worthy enough to have a spiritual manifestation of Christ, as some here insist is necessary for being saved in the Celestial kingdom. Because of Snuffer's introduction of this false doctrine, I believe it means that some misinterpret these scriptures.]

So both the brother of Jared and Nephi did not write down all that was given them while in the flesh[I don't think that's accurate. Moriancumr DID write it down, it is the sealed portion. Nephi probably did not, because it wasn't his stewardship to write it--it was M's and John the Revelator's. stewardship and mission to do so.] and so God's people had to wait until He manifested Himself unto them. And so He did. And He appeared to them in the land of Bountiful and taught them many great things. [Yes, he did teach them many great things and many of the things are written in our Book of Mormon and Our New Testament.]

3 Nephi 26

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

So Joseph Smith was commanded to translate the Book of Mormon, but he was also commanded NOT to touch the sealed portion. And so begins the mission of the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the house of Israel, to gather in the covenant people, both of birth and adoption (ALL OF US).

It has been stated in other threads that our church is no longer under condemnation. Well if that is so, then it must also needs be that we have received all the remainder of the revelations that Jesus Christ promised us. [I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The church was under condemnation because they were taking the Book of Mormon lightly, in other words, they weren't reading it, studying it, feasting on it, expounding on it, using it to witness and testify and learning from it, how to come unto Christ.] Do we have them? Is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon available to all the members of the church and to the world?[It's not, but it's not because we are under condemnation. We don't get the sealed portion until the time is right and the members are prepared, and can exercise faith like Moriancumr's faith. Many members are not to this point, they won't be for awhile and yes, it holds us all back, but that's to be expected. That's why we are to love and serve one another, teach and preach, to help raise all of us up and prepare us for better things, more light, more wisdom, greater manifestations of the spirit and miracles.] Has any prophet, apostle or any general authority declared that our condemnation has been lifted and we have cause to rejoice? What did President Ezra Taft Benson have to say about this back in 1986?

President Ezra Taft Benson:

My beloved brethren and sisters, today I would like to speak about one of the most significant gifts given to the world in modern times. The gift I am thinking of is more important than any of the inventions that have come out of the industrial and technological revolutions. This is a gift of greater value to mankind than even the many wonderful advances we have seen in modern medicine. It is of greater worth to mankind than the development of flight or space travel. I speak of the gift of the Book of Mormon, given to mankind 156 years ago...

This gift was prepared by the hand of the Lord over a period of more than a thousand years, then hidden up by Him so that it would be preserved in its purity for our generation. Perhaps there is nothing that testifies more clearly of the importance of this modern book of scripture than what the Lord Himself has said about it...

Think of that in terms of what it implies. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon preceded the restoration of the priesthood. It was published just a few days before the Church was organized. The Saints were given the Book of Mormon to read before they were given the revelations outlining such great doctrines as the three degrees of glory, celestial marriage, or work for the dead. It came before priesthood quorums and Church organization. Doesn’t this tell us something about how the Lord views this sacred work?...

In 1832, as some early missionaries returned from their fields of labor, the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. As a result of that attitude, he said, their minds had been darkened. Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...

If the early Saints were rebuked for treating the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same? The Lord Himself bears testimony that it is of eternal significance. Can a small number of us bring the whole Church under condemnation because we trifle with sacred things? What will we say at the Judgment when we stand before Him and meet His probing gaze if we are among those described as forgetting the new covenant?...

The Book of Mormon: Keystone of our Religion

[He was absolutely right and we were, as a whole, treating it lightly, but since then, we have changed our focus--a lot has happened in the last 30 years to put the Book of Mormon as the center of our Faith and a big part of it.]

He goes on to tell us why we need to take the Book of Mormon seriously. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Again, I ask, has any prophet since Ezra Taft Benson declared that we are no longer under condemnation? My answer to that is NO. Not one prophet, apostle, president, or any general authority has revealed such. There are many layers of truth in the Book of Mormon, which DOES contain the fullness of the gospel:[ That temple meeting was back in 87. I wonder if you asked Pres. Oaks what he thinks now, would he have a more positive outlook? Personally, I'd say yes. I know I've heeded the constant call to us to read and ponder, study daily this magnificent book. Remember Pres. Monson's last words to us were to admonish us once again to read and study the Book of Mormon. I've referred to his remarks many times, in Sunday school classes and when teaching and in our Family home evenings. I don't think I am out of the ordinary--I think many devout members do the same.]

D&C 20

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

Two thousand, five hundred Nephites and Lamanites had their calling and election made sure and received the Second Comforter. They brought forth fruit meet for repentance and they gained their salvation:

3 Nephi 27

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.

This brings me back full circle to what Nephi, the brother of Jared, these Nephites and Lamanites and many others in the Book of Mormon all witnessed. And we can have the same thing today. This is what some people like Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, John Pontius and more and more members of the church are testifying about.[This was back, years ago when you wrote this, Snuffer was not excommunicated yet, Amonhi wasn't banished to OuterDarkness and John Pontius was still alive, I believe. But, it does show that you were being influenced by Snuffer who broke with the church four years ago. Amonhi...personally, I don't trust anything he writes. John Pontius, I really love his book about his own personal writings, but Visions of Glory--is a conundrum. At this time, Julie Rowe is using his book to flesh out her supposed visions of the future, so I'd say the 'fruits' of that book are iffy.] I should hope that everyone say, "I know Jesus Christ lives. I have seen him."[Of course that's what we want, but you need to realize that all members are not on the same spiritual level and commitment. If they can't say this, does that mean their humble testimonies of belief are of no value? Of course not, Jesus said more blessed were those who had NOT seen and yet, believed in him. I think you and some of those influenced by Snuffer forget this, or you just dismiss it. Either way, it means that a simple testimony borne by pure faith is not valued, if they can't point to a grand theophany of seeing Jesus in the Flesh. And the worst, if the belief that it is required for entrance in the Celestial Kingdom, when the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that Baptism is entrance into that Kingdom. Ironic that we are talking about taking the Book of Mormon lightly, that some do so, but disregarding it's simple, plain precious truths contained within for Snuffer's cruel false doctrine.] Should our general authorities be the only ones who can make such a claim?[Who said they were? Who says that, marc? I don't know anyone who says that or believes that--it's a strawman argument.] I should hope to hear them even say it. Each and every one of us can have the condemnation removed from us by seeking the Lord, by coming unto Jesus Christ,[And we do so by reading, studying, pondering the Book of Mormon. THAT is how we come to know the Lord, through it's pages. To see him in the flesh, to make are calling and election sure, is the culmination of a life of living in such a manner that we prove that we 'know' him by doing his works, obeying his commands, etc. The 'condemnation' isn't removed by receiving calling and election (which is what we strive for) but by learning of Christ through our commitment to read,study, ponder, share the Book of Mormon.] that He may tell us that our names are written in heaven, never to be blotted out again. This is what Zenos was telling us in Jacob 5. The Lord of the vineyard labors diligently even today to grown and bring forth fruit unto Himself. This fruit is all of us. We are the olives of this allegory. It's up to us to decide whether we will be laid up against the season as good fruit[good fruit is 'good work's. Evil fruit is 'evil works'. That's what our Lord would have us do, obey his commands, love and serve others and bring forth good fruit.] or to be cast into the fire as evil fruit. The last thought I leave to the reader is what Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ have both testified:

"Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves; by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it." --Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 299.

[Exactly. Calling and Election is what we strive for, and to receive it, we must obtain the truth, which comes through the fullness of the Gospel, which we have in the church, be obedient to the Lord's commandments, study the Savior and his words, exercise faith, practice works and develop charity for those around us. Serve. Then wait patiently and humbly to obtain that promise.]

D&C 93

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[Yep, that's just what I've been saying.]

Why procrastinate the day of our repentance and HOPE that when we stand to be judged, we have done enough, when we can start NOW and seek the Lord NOW. Who would NOT want to visit with Jesus Christ in THIS life and know that He has accepted our sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and given us the greatest gift that can be given? This is the whole point of the creation and His atonement!

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[Good counsel, Marc, thanks for sharing; We should not procrastinate the day of our repentance, and shouldn't wait to get our lives in order, but should do so now. Repent, have faith, love the Lord, serve him with all our hearts, learn of him. Come unto him by learning of his ways, his life, his works and pattern our lives after him, receive his ordinances, make covenants, be faithful in keeping them. If we do this and wait patiently upon the Lord, we will receive our reward.]

I’m with you on the point about the “Mass calling and election” point. I don’t think that moment was them receiving their calling and election, BUT, in the context of the “Journey” and the Tree of life, I see Marc’s point that it can symbolize the process he is describing in which you first receive the First Comfortor and afterwards the Second Comforter will come.

On the interpretation of 2 Nephi 32:6, I have seen that most people did not hold this interpretation until Denver Snuffer and others started talking about it, HOWEVER, I have seen others prior to this with that same belief. It reminds me of another scripture and that’s the scripture in 3 Nephi 9:20 “ They knew it not”. These 2 verses hold significant meaning to some, and to others they believe it’s exactly what it appears to be. My only thought is the Joseph Smith quote that: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine. - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.288”

I don’t KNOW what they mean, but I know what I believe and everyone has that right.

* I am also reminded of another talk of President Benson’s that I listened to the other day. (Born of God - October 1985)

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

I believe, like President Benson, that the progress of the church would increase dramatically with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn. Recent statistics have shown the church is not progressing dramatically. Baptisms had a tiny increase(3% I think?) when the Missionary Force nearly doubled(or did it double? I don’t remember.) Yes, this goes to show that the world is wicked and would be a contributing factor, but I also believe this has something to say about the Missionaries and members as well. I think that if the church as a whole really did take President Benson seriously by really reading the Book of Mormon and understanding it, then more members would be reborn, they would understand the doctrine of Christ and the things that President Benson spoke of would actually come to pass.

These things are evidence to me that the condemnation still lies upon the church. Again, I also hold the believe that we have not seen any revelation from the Church in quite some time. I’m not saying they aren’t prophets/apostles or that they aren’t inspired. I believe they are and sustain them, BUT, these things do suggest that nothing has changed from the time of President Benson. Yes members read the Book of Mormon a lot more, but is that all that was needed?

[Finrock]

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The church was under condemnation because they were taking the Book of Mormon lightly, in other words, they weren't reading it, studying it, feasting on it, expounding on it, using it to witness and testify and learning from it, how to come unto Christ.

It is much more than that, I think. I don't want to pretend to be able to speak for all Mormons, but I do know what I have observed being a faithful and active member of the Church and I also know what I have experienced. I believe too many Mormons are not reading the Book of Mormon in a way that allows the Book of Mormon to sincerely teach them and to guide and shape their understanding of the doctrine of Christ. I've read the Book of Mormon many times now and for many years I read it but I didn't allow it to really shape my thoughts and my actions. I would read the book within my "typical" Mormon paradigm, and so whatever I read I tried to make it fit the "Sunday School" answers. Eventually, however, I began to allow the Book of Mormon shape my preconceived notions or traditions as opposed to allowing my preconceived notions and traditions shape the Book of Mormon. I hope I'm making sense. In short, there is a difference in reading it so as to reinforce what we think we know or believe as opposed to reading it with "fresh" eyes or in all humility, allowing the Book of Mormon to guide our thoughts, ideas, and beliefs. When done this way, many of my old ideas (which I now believe are false) began to shatter and fall away. For me in particular, it was wonderful. By allowing the Spirit in the Book of Mormon guide my beliefs, I was freed from many ideas and notions that were causing me to feel and to be separated from God and Christ.

I believe we need to read the Book of Mormon and believe what it says, plainly, without trying to explain away many of the plain parts in an attempt to make them fit in to our typical Mormon paradigm, dare I say, creeds and dogmatic beliefs. There are many parts in the Book of Mormon, when read plainly, don't fit the creeds we have been taught in Church and Sunday school, without complicated explanations and rationalization. So, now when I read from the Book of Mormon, I accept at face value that what is being said is what it means.

To summarize, I believe President Benson means for us to use the Book of Mormon to learn about the Doctrine of Christ and read it with the intent and the purpose of allowing the book to change us. We must first understand what it is actually teaching us and then we must have the courage to begin to apply those things in our lives, even if they may not match up with what we have been traditionally taught or that which comes from the creeds of Mormondom. The LDS people are the target audience of this book. In a very real way, we are really the only people in all of the world, who regularly read and believe in the Book of Mormon, so when the Book talks about a fallen people, or whatever, we must relate it to us. We must see that the book is talking to us and it is asking us to change. We can't project the Book of Mormon message and say that it applies to those who aren't the "chosen" people, like we are. Only in this way do I believe that we can begin to access the power that is contained in the book.

-Finrock

[marc]

I’m with you on the point about the “Mass calling and election” point. I don’t think that moment was them receiving their calling and election, BUT, in the context of the “Journey” and the Tree of life, I see Marc’s point that it can symbolize the process he is describing in which you first receive the First Comfortor and afterwards the Second Comforter will come.

Although I did mention C&E in my OP, I did not specifically tie it to the Lord's visit at Bountiful. Receiving one's C&E is simply a promise. Bruce R. McConkie likened it to having your judgment day advanced. You haven't been saved yet, but you will. Thus one's C&E may come at any point along the path of the iron rod and why Joseph Smith said that once one receives it, it is then a privilege to receive the other comforter. Now I don't know if anyone at Bountiful had received their C&E prior to the Savior's visit, although I suspect that Nephi and some others had. But what did happen en masse was the reception of the Second Comforter. Jesus literally came to a large group of peole, ALL of whom came forth face to face with Him and felt the prints in his hands and feet. Of them, Jesus declared:

3 Nephi 27:30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.

31 Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of joy.

The Lord uses the term fulness repeatedly. The people indeed experienced His fulness. They saw Him face to face, they felt the prints in His hands and feet, witnessed angels come down out of heaven and so much more. This fulness is what the Lord explained to Joseph Smith in D&C 84, a very key revelation.

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

To partake of the fruit of the tree of life is to partake and taste of His goodness. These wordings are used throughout the Book of Mormon. To obtain this rest is most joyous to the soul. It is to be encircled about in His everlasting embrace. What greater comfort is there while in the flesh than for the Son and the Father to make their abode with you? Or as Lehi put it:

1 Nephi 8:12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.

Or as Nephi declared:

2 Nephi 26:27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

Nephi explained to Laman and Lemuel the meaning of partaking of the fruit:

1 Nephi 15:36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.

Jesus declared the same for those who endure to the end:

D&C 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

The prophet Mormon used the same imagery in his writings:

Mormon 1:15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.

These words are all used purposefully. The are all symbolic of events that we can experience. To "taste" and to "know" as the brother Jared also tasted and knew for he had faith no longer, nothing doubting (Ether 3). There are countless references throughout the Book of Mormon.

[Mark]

[This is a pretty old thread, I thought it would be best to start by looking at your initial posting to be clear on what is being asked;]

I have been trying to share a message on this forum about coming to Christ and I have not been alone. A few others have expressed the same desire and I believe this effort has begun to gain a little traction. By coming unto Christ, I mean making our calling and election sure, that we may receive the Second Comforter as two thousand five hundred Nephites and Lamanites did when Christ visited them and gave them the fullness of the gospel. Let me preface this with a single scripture, which is a revelation given to Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ:

[So, first question. You are positing that the 2,500 who saw christ, in the flesh when he appeared in the Americas, received their second comforter/calling and election. To be honest, I've never thought of it this way. I've always perceived Calling and Election as something very personal and to be experienced on an individual basis. I looked at this event as more in line with appearances of Jesus Christ to groups and crowds, such as the 500, which happened during the time after his resurrection in the Old World. He shared the same messages with Nephites and he healed the sick, something he had done when he was among the Jews. So, I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of a mass 'calling/election/second comforter' experience. I won't say that I disagree with you, I just feel I need to study and ponder it, pray and read the scriptural accounts etc., before I come to a conclusion on this.]

D&C 84

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written...

[So, let's be clear, that the condemnation was for taking the Book of Mormon lightly, for continuing to rely more on the Bible. If you look at statistics, this pattern did continue in general in the church up until Pres. Benson's call to use the Book of Mormon as it was meant to be used, by the church.]

Now let me offer some background. The Book of Mormon, even the marvelous work and a wonder,[I have always felt that the marvelous work and wonder was not only the Book of Mormon, but the restoration of the Gospel as well.] of which Isaiah prophesied generations before Lehi left Jerusalem, was prepared to come forth from the foundation of the world. Gaining an understanding of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5 is a huge plus and will give perspective regarding its timeline, the various phases of the scattering and gathering, the role of the Nephites/Lamanites as the remnant of Joseph and their importance in the ushering in of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel and Christ's church. A part of this happened as far back as the time of the tower of Babel where a small group of people led by Jared and his brother, who spoke face to face with Jesus Christ:

Ether 4

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.

3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

So the brother of Jared saw everything from the beginning to the end but was forbidden to write it all down for us[to clarify, he did write it down, but he sealed it up. It was for John the Revelator to write it and it would be available to us, but the sealed portion would not come forward until we are 'clean' and display the faith of Moriancumr.] because Jesus Christ knew that we as a church would take this gift lightly.[This is conjecture. Jesus Christ knew we as a church would not be prepared to receive the sealed portion until we are ready and able to receive. I think he withholds it because this kind of knowledge is not offered to to those of lesser faith. It can't come to the church collectively until we are on a higher spiritual level.] Even Nephi saw everything from beginning to end but was forbidden to write it down because of the condemnation that we, today, would be under because of our pride, vanity and unbelief:

2 Nephi 32

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

[Verse six is referring to when Christ will 'manifest himself' unto them 'in the flesh' when he appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection. Resurrection was a BIG deal, this is what was important--that Christ had overcome death and taken on the sins of the world and he'd done it so that we could also live again after death. He's not saying that you don't get any more doctrine until you are worthy enough to have a spiritual manifestation of Christ, as some here insist is necessary for being saved in the Celestial kingdom. Because of Snuffer's introduction of this false doctrine, I believe it means that some misinterpret these scriptures.]

So both the brother of Jared and Nephi did not write down all that was given them while in the flesh[I don't think that's accurate. Moriancumr DID write it down, it is the sealed portion. Nephi probably did not, because it wasn't his stewardship to write it--it was M's and John the Revelator's. stewardship and mission to do so.] and so God's people had to wait until He manifested Himself unto them. And so He did. And He appeared to them in the land of Bountiful and taught them many great things. [Yes, he did teach them many great things and many of the things are written in our Book of Mormon and Our New Testament.]

3 Nephi 26

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

So Joseph Smith was commanded to translate the Book of Mormon, but he was also commanded NOT to touch the sealed portion. And so begins the mission of the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the house of Israel, to gather in the covenant people, both of birth and adoption (ALL OF US).

It has been stated in other threads that our church is no longer under condemnation. Well if that is so, then it must also needs be that we have received all the remainder of the revelations that Jesus Christ promised us. [I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The church was under condemnation because they were taking the Book of Mormon lightly, in other words, they weren't reading it, studying it, feasting on it, expounding on it, using it to witness and testify and learning from it, how to come unto Christ.] Do we have them? Is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon available to all the members of the church and to the world?[It's not, but it's not because we are under condemnation. We don't get the sealed portion until the time is right and the members are prepared, and can exercise faith like Moriancumr's faith. Many members are not to this point, they won't be for awhile and yes, it holds us all back, but that's to be expected. That's why we are to love and serve one another, teach and preach, to help raise all of us up and prepare us for better things, more light, more wisdom, greater manifestations of the spirit and miracles.] Has any prophet, apostle or any general authority declared that our condemnation has been lifted and we have cause to rejoice? What did President Ezra Taft Benson have to say about this back in 1986?

President Ezra Taft Benson:

My beloved brethren and sisters, today I would like to speak about one of the most significant gifts given to the world in modern times. The gift I am thinking of is more important than any of the inventions that have come out of the industrial and technological revolutions. This is a gift of greater value to mankind than even the many wonderful advances we have seen in modern medicine. It is of greater worth to mankind than the development of flight or space travel. I speak of the gift of the Book of Mormon, given to mankind 156 years ago...

This gift was prepared by the hand of the Lord over a period of more than a thousand years, then hidden up by Him so that it would be preserved in its purity for our generation. Perhaps there is nothing that testifies more clearly of the importance of this modern book of scripture than what the Lord Himself has said about it...

Think of that in terms of what it implies. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon preceded the restoration of the priesthood. It was published just a few days before the Church was organized. The Saints were given the Book of Mormon to read before they were given the revelations outlining such great doctrines as the three degrees of glory, celestial marriage, or work for the dead. It came before priesthood quorums and Church organization. Doesn’t this tell us something about how the Lord views this sacred work?...

In 1832, as some early missionaries returned from their fields of labor, the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. As a result of that attitude, he said, their minds had been darkened. Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...

If the early Saints were rebuked for treating the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same? The Lord Himself bears testimony that it is of eternal significance. Can a small number of us bring the whole Church under condemnation because we trifle with sacred things? What will we say at the Judgment when we stand before Him and meet His probing gaze if we are among those described as forgetting the new covenant?...

The Book of Mormon: Keystone of our Religion

[He was absolutely right and we were, as a whole, treating it lightly, but since then, we have changed our focus--a lot has happened in the last 30 years to put the Book of Mormon as the center of our Faith and a big part of it.]

He goes on to tell us why we need to take the Book of Mormon seriously. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Again, I ask, has any prophet since Ezra Taft Benson declared that we are no longer under condemnation? My answer to that is NO. Not one prophet, apostle, president, or any general authority has revealed such. There are many layers of truth in the Book of Mormon, which DOES contain the fullness of the gospel:[ That temple meeting was back in 87. I wonder if you asked Pres. Oaks what he thinks now, would he have a more positive outlook? Personally, I'd say yes. I know I've heeded the constant call to us to read and ponder, study daily this magnificent book. Remember Pres. Monson's last words to us were to admonish us once again to read and study the Book of Mormon. I've referred to his remarks many times, in Sunday school classes and when teaching and in our Family home evenings. I don't think I am out of the ordinary--I think many devout members do the same.]

D&C 20

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

Two thousand, five hundred Nephites and Lamanites had their calling and election made sure and received the Second Comforter. They brought forth fruit meet for repentance and they gained their salvation:

3 Nephi 27

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.

This brings me back full circle to what Nephi, the brother of Jared, these Nephites and Lamanites and many others in the Book of Mormon all witnessed. And we can have the same thing today. This is what some people like Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, John Pontius and more and more members of the church are testifying about.[This was back, years ago when you wrote this, Snuffer was not excommunicated yet, Amonhi wasn't banished to OuterDarkness and John Pontius was still alive, I believe. But, it does show that you were being influenced by Snuffer who broke with the church four years ago. Amonhi...personally, I don't trust anything he writes. John Pontius, I really love his book about his own personal writings, but Visions of Glory--is a conundrum. At this time, Julie Rowe is using his book to flesh out her supposed visions of the future, so I'd say the 'fruits' of that book are iffy.] I should hope that everyone say, "I know Jesus Christ lives. I have seen him."[Of course that's what we want, but you need to realize that all members are not on the same spiritual level and commitment. If they can't say this, does that mean their humble testimonies of belief are of no value? Of course not, Jesus said more blessed were those who had NOT seen and yet, believed in him. I think you and some of those influenced by Snuffer forget this, or you just dismiss it. Either way, it means that a simple testimony borne by pure faith is not valued, if they can't point to a grand theophany of seeing Jesus in the Flesh. And the worst, if the belief that it is required for entrance in the Celestial Kingdom, when the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that Baptism is entrance into that Kingdom. Ironic that we are talking about taking the Book of Mormon lightly, that some do so, but disregarding it's simple, plain precious truths contained within for Snuffer's cruel false doctrine.] Should our general authorities be the only ones who can make such a claim?[Who said they were? Who says that, marc? I don't know anyone who says that or believes that--it's a strawman argument.] I should hope to hear them even say it. Each and every one of us can have the condemnation removed from us by seeking the Lord, by coming unto Jesus Christ,[And we do so by reading, studying, pondering the Book of Mormon. THAT is how we come to know the Lord, through it's pages. To see him in the flesh, to make are calling and election sure, is the culmination of a life of living in such a manner that we prove that we 'know' him by doing his works, obeying his commands, etc. The 'condemnation' isn't removed by receiving calling and election (which is what we strive for) but by learning of Christ through our commitment to read,study, ponder, share the Book of Mormon.] that He may tell us that our names are written in heaven, never to be blotted out again. This is what Zenos was telling us in Jacob 5. The Lord of the vineyard labors diligently even today to grown and bring forth fruit unto Himself. This fruit is all of us. We are the olives of this allegory. It's up to us to decide whether we will be laid up against the season as good fruit[good fruit is 'good work's. Evil fruit is 'evil works'. That's what our Lord would have us do, obey his commands, love and serve others and bring forth good fruit.] or to be cast into the fire as evil fruit. The last thought I leave to the reader is what Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ have both testified:

"Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves; by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it." --Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 299.

[Exactly. Calling and Election is what we strive for, and to receive it, we must obtain the truth, which comes through the fullness of the Gospel, which we have in the church, be obedient to the Lord's commandments, study the Savior and his words, exercise faith, practice works and develop charity for those around us. Serve. Then wait patiently and humbly to obtain that promise.]

D&C 93

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[Yep, that's just what I've been saying.]

Why procrastinate the day of our repentance and HOPE that when we stand to be judged, we have done enough, when we can start NOW and seek the Lord NOW. Who would NOT want to visit with Jesus Christ in THIS life and know that He has accepted our sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and given us the greatest gift that can be given? This is the whole point of the creation and His atonement!

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[Good counsel, Marc, thanks for sharing; We should not procrastinate the day of our repentance, and shouldn't wait to get our lives in order, but should do so now. Repent, have faith, love the Lord, serve him with all our hearts, learn of him. Come unto him by learning of his ways, his life, his works and pattern our lives after him, receive his ordinances, make covenants, be faithful in keeping them. If we do this and wait patiently upon the Lord, we will receive our reward.]

Some very good points AI2.0. I get very uncomfortable grouping the entire church into 1 entity. The church is comprised of every flavor. Some are Saints; some are Aints. The Lord looks upon the individual heart and would never penalize or punish or condemn that Saint who develops a broken heart and a contrite spirit and comes unto him by casting away their natural man tendencies and adopting the spiritual mind. I get tired of the bashing done by some of the discontented who use the hammer Of condemnation to pound the entire membership into the ground casting out all assortment of assumptive rhetoric against church membership like they personally know the mind and will of the Lord; all because some members don't live the principles of the gospel in their individual lives. The Lords arm of mercy is outstretched to any who choose to grasp it thru obedience and repentance. Many will not be granted the opportunity of a face to face meeting with the Lord prior to the end of their mortal life. This in no way indicts them as less than or unqualified for celestial glory. It just may be the Lords will that this blessing is withheld until passing thru the veil of our mortal life into immortality. Only the Lord can determine that. Should we seek it? Of course. But not obtaining it prior to our physical death in no way indicts that soul who becomes a new creature in Christ. No blessing will be withheld from them intothe eternities. The Lord is ever merciful and just.

[Contemplator]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us. We can then experience what the people did at King Benjamins sermon given them.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

4 And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying: My friends and my brethren, my kindred and my people, I would again call your attention, that ye may hear and understand the remainder of my words which I shall speak unto you.

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

That joy can come to each of us as we unlock the key to the spiritual minds in all of us. The Holy Ghost is that key. Without Him our minds will stay in a state of condemnation. With Him all things are possible.

Mark,

I have read "Light in the Wilderness," by Catherine Thomas and found it to be of great worth. Thank you for bringing her book into this conversation. Prompted by Finrock's comment, above, I will be very clear that her book, or any other individual's writings, are not a substitute for the scriptures, in general, or the Book of Mormon, in particular. But, just as we can encourage each other in a forum like this, there is value in reading the words of a thoughtful, faithful author like Catherine Thomas.

Thank you for your comments on this thread!

[Finrock]

I would encourage you Marc to read Catherine Thomas book Light in the Wilderness- Explorations in the Spiritual Life. She does such a great job in explaining this critical doctrinal principle. Particularly read chapter 4 where she addresses the natural and spiritual mind and the role of the Holy Ghost in rescuing and redeeming us from the fall and its effects on the mind. It is all about understanding and acknowledging the limitations of the natural mind so as to open ourselves up to the vastness of our spiritual minds where as the Lord says in section 88 verses 67-68:

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Our condemnation is removed when we see through our spiritual mind and that light completely fills our bodies. We change and become a new creature in Christ. Sanctification purifies our souls and we discover who we really are. The Lords physical presence before us eventually comes in HIS own time and in HIS own way according to HIS own will. It could be on either side of the veil depending on what HE wills for us. However that glorious visitation experience is not nessesary for us to remove the effects of the natural mind and its veil of unbelief which has resulted in the condemnation being placed upon us. We can then experience what the people did at King Benjamins sermon given them.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

4 And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying: My friends and my brethren, my kindred and my people, I would again call your attention, that ye may hear and understand the remainder of my words which I shall speak unto you.

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

That joy can come to each of us as we unlock the key to the spiritual minds in all of us. The Holy Ghost is that key. Without Him our minds will stay in a state of condemnation. With Him all things are possible.

Mark,

I have read "Light in the Wilderness," by Catherine Thomas and found it to be of great worth. Thank you for bringing her book into this conversation. Prompted by Finrock's comment, above, I will be very clear that her book, or any other individual's writings, are not a substitute for the scriptures, in general, or the Book of Mormon, in particular. But, just as we can encourage each other in a forum like this, there is value in reading the words of a thoughtful, faithful author like Catherine Thomas.

Thank you for your comments on this thread!

I just wanted to clarify that there is nothing inherently wrong with reading commentary and reading the experiences of other people. I too have been blessed or helped at times in my life by reading how others have understood the scriptures or their experiences with God and the gospel. LDS Voices, anyone? I used to joke around that my testimony was largely based off of reading those stories in the back of the Ensign. Now, I was largely joking, but, there is a real risk in what I was doing in allowing my testimony, in any degree, to be based off of what others were experiencing, what they believed, etc. So, I look around and I see books like, "Isaiah for Dummies" and other such books, all promising to help unlock or to reveal what the scriptures mean. Although we may gain something from it, relying on books and commentary, takes away from us reading and gaining our own understandings and experiences with the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. Also, as I was addressing in my post above, there is the risk of confirmation bias when we read commentary on scripture as opposed to allowing the Spirit teach us invidiually. It is very easy sometimes to only pick up and read books that you can be fairly certain will reinforce your pre-existing beliefs and notions. There are many people who may believe the same as you do and although it can be appealing and we can have our beliefs reinforced by reading books that ultimately match up with what we believe anyways, doing so will stump our potential growth.

When it comes to the scriptures, there truly is no substitute to an individual sitting down and getting to know the scripture themselves, by being humble and teachable, so that the Holy Ghost can teach us, shape us, and show us the way. Then we will have first hand experiences that can build up our faith and allow us to change and our understanding will come directly from the Holy Ghost to our spirits. When we read the words spoken by the Spirit of Prophecy, such as scriptures, with the Spirit of Prophecy, then we will understand the words as they were intended to be understood. In end each individual must work out their own salvation and have their own experiences with the Spirit and with God. Nobody else's understanding and epxeriences, in the end, will matter to us.

-Finrock

[lundbaek]

Mormons are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He even told them how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. (D&C 101: 80) He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people (D&C 98: 5 and D&C 101: 77), and that its principles were to be established forever. (D&C 109: 54)

Mormons have also been told of the vital importance of learning the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, or "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" as Presidents McKay and Benson expressed on occasion, and of defending, upholding and adhering to its principles. In fact, almost every prophet in this dispensation has spoken of the importance of defending, upholding, and adhering to the Constitution. In the year 1987 alone we were told that:

"We, as Latter-day Saints, MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible" (15 January 1987 First Presidency Statement),

"We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts" (September 1987, The Ensign), and

"We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" (President Benson, October 1987 General Conference.) Note, please, my emphasis on the word "MUST". To me the word "must" makes those statements a commandment.

Unfortunately, Mormons generally have not been united or faithful in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. Not only have they generally ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to destroy their Constitution, gain control over their government and steal their wealth. And many, probably most American LDS voters have supported politicians and candidates for elected offices who have proposed and promoted legislation, government actions, and programs that have been egregious violations of constitutional principles. Is it any wonder that several prophets have warned that Americans have apostatized in various ways from the Constitution ? Is it any wonder why so many Mormons may be under condemnation ?