Are the 144,000 translated beings?

[Steve Clark]

This topic is a carry-over from Mark's comment here.

If they were part of the 144,000 they would have to be translated beings. Once again I am uncomfortable with someone coming on an internet forum saying they are part of this glorious missionary force of hunters (Jeremiah 16:16) which is to happen at the time of the redemption of Zion prior to the second coming of the Lord. Lets just say I have a healthy dose of skepticism here. I will leave it at that.

I have been more than casually studying the Gospel for the better part of my life, and this was a new concept to me. The best source I have been able to find (with 5 minutes of googling) is a quote from Orson Pratt:

Elder Orson Pratt gave this additional explanation:

“When the Temple is built [in the New Jerusalem] the sons of the two Priesthoods [Melchizedek and Aaronic] . . . will enter into that Temple . . . and all of them who are pure in heart will behold the face of the Lord and that too before he comes in his glory in the clouds of heaven, for he will suddenly come to his Temple, and he will purify the sons of Moses and of Aaron, until they shall be prepared to offer in that Temple an offering that shall be acceptable in the sight of the Lord. In doing this, he will purify not only the minds of the Priesthood in that Temple, but he will purify their bodies until they shall be quickened, and renewed and strengthened, and they will be partially changed, not to immortality, but changed in part that they can be filled with the power of God, and they can stand in the presence of Jesus, and behold his face in the midst of that Temple.

“This will prepare them for further ministrations among the nations of the earth, it will prepare them to go forth in the days of tribulation and vengeance upon the nations of the wicked, when God will smite them with pestilence, plague and earthquake, such as former generations never knew. Then the servants of God will need to be armed with the power of God, they will need to have that sealing blessing pronounced upon their foreheads that they can stand forth in the midst of these desolations and plagues and not be overcome by them. When John the Revelator describes this scene he says he saw four angels sent forth, ready to hold the four winds that should blow from the four quarters of heaven. Another angel ascended from the east and cried to the four angels, and said, ‘Smite not the earth now, but wait a little while.’ ‘How long?’ ‘Until the servants of our God are sealed in their foreheads.’ What for? To prepare them to stand forth in the midst of these desolations and plagues, and not be overcome. When they are prepared, when they have received a renewal of their bodies in the Lord’s temple, and have been filled with the Holy Ghost and purified as gold and silver in a furnace of fire, then they will be prepared to stand before the nations of the earth and preach glad tidings of salvation in the midst of judgments that are to come like a whirlwind upon the wicked.” (In Journal of Discourses, 15:365–66.)

This talks of being quickened by the Spirit, and being able to withstand physical torment, but not being translated. Quickened != (does not equal) translated. Is there a better source for the idea of the 144k being translated?

[Rand]

John Pontius makes a big deal of this idea in his book about Zion. I am not sure I agree with him, but he talks about it.
I am of the impression that many of them are translated, some may be alive on this earth but quickened. Good question. I hope someone else has more sources to share.

[ATL Wake]

John Pontius makes a big deal of this idea in his book about Zion. I am not sure I agree with him, but he talks about it.
I am of the impression that many of them are translated, some may be alive on this earth but quickened. Good question. I hope someone else has more sources to share.

I had understood John Pontius to mean that because much of the work will be done during/after the great calamity, it will be necessary for them to be translated to withstand all the tumults. I did not understand him to be saying that all the 144k are always and will always be translated. Just that later on they will be out of necessity.

I could be wrong. That's how I understood him.

[Steve Clark]

At this time Joseph Smith was not willing to discuss the temple ordinances of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood, of marriage for time and eternity, or of sealing children to parents; nevertheless, he indicated that the conferral of the fulness of the priesthood was a "sealing…on top of the head", of which the phrase "sealed in their foreheads" was symbolic. Furthermore, Joseph Smith here taught that it was through the ordinance of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood that men could be qualified to be a part of the special missionary force of the last days which would number 144,000 high priests (D&C 77:8-11, 14). When Cornelius P. Lott and his wife received these ordinances on 4 February 1844, the Prophet indicated that "the selection of the persons to form that number had already commenced." He had already conferred these blessings on at least 17 men (History of the Church, 6:196)

Bro. Lott passed away in 1850. He was not translated.

[davedan]

I think the 144,000 will be set apart to go from Zion in the power of the 3 Nephites to bring in survivors to safety after the Tribulation but before the Wrath (the righteous will have tribulation but are not appointed unto wrath)

The converted Jews after Armaggedon will go forth to the heathen nations and bring in survivors to Jerusalem following the Tribulation and before the Wrath.

The 144000 may already be translated but more likely will become translated to protect them in their mission to "go and bring them in from the plain".

[reese]

11

Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one ahundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are bhigh priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the cFirstborn.

Here is what John Pontius says in his book after quoting this scripture above.
"Notice, these missionaries are members of the holy order, a subject we have discussed. It is also instructive that they will "administer" the everlasting gospel, not preach it. This suggests that they aren't missionaries in the classic sense. They aren't sifting and convincing and proselyting people. These words suggest that they are going forth to adminsiter the ordinaces(necessary to become Zion) to people who are already worthy but who lack some essential elements to their preparations."

He also quotes John Taylor saying:
"And then when the time comes that these calmities we read of shall overtake the earth, those that are prepared will have the power of translation, as they had in former times, and the city will be translated."(John Taylor JD, 21:253)

It seems to me that translation will be necessary to survive certain things. At this point in time, I don't see a huge need for translation to survive the calmities, yet, however I do see a need for people to be gathered into the church of the firstborn. I see this whole gathering as happening in phases. We are obviously in the beginning stages of it. The way the 144,000 perform their mission will change as things change. If they are not translated right now(I don't know), then the time will come that they will be. But there is still a need to gather people into the church of the firstborn now, if they will come.

[Jason]

11

Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one ahundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are bhigh priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the cFirstborn.

Here is what John Pontius says in his book after quoting this scripture above.
"Notice, these missionaries are members of the holy order, a subject we have discussed. It is also instructive that they will "administer" the everlasting gospel, not preach it. This suggests that they aren't missionaries in the classic sense. They aren't sifting and convincing and proselyting people. These words suggest that they are going forth to adminsiter the ordinaces(necessary to become Zion) to people who are already worthy but who lack some essential elements to their preparations."

He also quotes John Taylor saying:
"And then when the time comes that these calmities we read of shall overtake the earth, those that are prepared will have the power of translation, as they had in former times, and the city will be translated."(John Taylor JD, 21:253)

It seems to me that translation will be necessary to survive certain things. At this point in time, I don't see a huge need for translation to survive the calmities, yet, however I do see a need for people to be gathered into the church of the firstborn. I see this whole gathering as happening in phases. We are obviously in the beginning stages of it. The 144,000's mission will change as things change. If they are not translated right now(I don't know), then the time will come that they will be.

Nice contribution! "Administer" gives it a whole new perspective! I wonder how many "administrators" we now have in the kingdom (bishops, stake presidents, 70, 12, prophet, etc)?

[reese]

Nice contribution! "Administer" gives it a whole new perspective! I wonder how many "administrators" we now have in the kingdom (bishops, stake presidents, 70, 12, prophet, etc)?

I don't know. Are these people "administering" to members of the church of the firstborn, or to members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints?

[Jason]

Nice contribution! "Administer" gives it a whole new perspective! I wonder how many "administrators" we now have in the kingdom (bishops, stake presidents, 70, 12, prophet, etc)?

I don't know. Are these people "administering" to members of the church of the firstborn, or to members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints?

Are they not one and the same?

If they are we still have about a 100,000 to go....

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... 1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...now that is some growth in the church!!!

[reese]

Nice contribution! "Administer" gives it a whole new perspective! I wonder how many "administrators" we now have in the kingdom (bishops, stake presidents, 70, 12, prophet, etc)?

I don't know. Are these people "administering" to members of the church of the firstborn, or to members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints?

Are they not one and the same?

If they are we still have about a 100,000 to go....

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... 1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...now that is some growth in the church!!!

No Legion, they are definitely NOT one and the same.

[Jason]

Nice contribution! "Administer" gives it a whole new perspective! I wonder how many "administrators" we now have in the kingdom (bishops, stake presidents, 70, 12, prophet, etc)?

I don't know. Are these people "administering" to members of the church of the firstborn, or to members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints?

Are they not one and the same?

If they are we still have about a 100,000 to go....

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... 1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...now that is some growth in the church!!!

No Legion, they are definitely NOT one and the same.

What's the difference? Is not the firstborn Jesus Christ? Is this not the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints?

[Rand]

The second is the completion of the first. Can you have the completion with out the beginning? Because you start the race, doesn't mean you will finish the course, but you must start to finish. They are both part of the same whole. The fruit is a part of the tree, but not the same as the tree.

[reese]

The second is the completion of the first. Can you have the completion with out the beginning? Because you start the race, doesn't mean you will finish the course, but you must start to finish. They are both part of the same whole. The fruit is a part of the tree, but not the same as the tree.

That is right Rand, you have to start. But if you don't finish then you don't get the prize, and nothing else really matters after that. And the beginning is not equal to the end.

[Jason]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

[reese]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

Its actually the priesthood that will not be removed from the earth, not the church. Read the thread titled: Church of the Firstborn, in this section of the forum. It will explain the difference.

[Rand]

As in DC 76:50 And again we bear record—for we asaw and heard, and this is the btestimony of the cgospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the djust—

51 They are they who received the atestimony of Jesus, and bbelieved on his name and were cbaptized after the dmanner of his burial, being eburied in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by akeeping the commandments they might be bwashed and ccleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who aovercome by faith, and are bsealed by the Holy Spirit of cpromise, which the Father dsheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the achurch of the bFirstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things—

56 They are they who are apriests and bkings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are apriests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of bEnoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are agods, even the bsons of cGod—

59 Wherefore, aall things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall aovercome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man aglory in man, but rather let him bglory in God, who shall csubdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall adwell in the bpresence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall acome in the bclouds of heaven to creign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the afirst resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the ajust.

66 These are they who are come unto aMount bZion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of aangels, to the general assembly and church of bEnoch, and of the cFirstborn.

68 These are they whose names are awritten in heaven, where God and Christ are the bjudge of all.

69 These are they who are ajust men made bperfect through Jesus the mediator of the new ccovenant, who wrought out this perfect datonement through the shedding of his own eblood.

70 These are they whose bodies are acelestial, whose bglory is that of the csun, even the glory of God, the dhighest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
22 For without this no aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

[LukeAir2008]

Administer or preach - this is a distinction without a difference. Surely before you can provide saving ordinances you will need to teach the gospel to lead the person into receiving the ordinances.

To administer the gospel is to preach, teach, baptize and confer the Holy Ghost which is what all missionaries do.

The 144,000 are unique in that they will be pure, chaste, virgins who will be anointed and divinely protected to go out into the whole world and cry repentance one last time before the Second Coming.

[Jason]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

Its actually the priesthood that will not be removed from the earth, not the church. Read the thread titled: Church of the Firstborn, in this section of the forum. It will explain the difference.

Thank you...I'll look into that one!

PS....looks like dangerous ground to me. I think this line from Rand is wise advice (especially in internet land where you assume one thing and later find out they left the church 20 some odd years ago)...

Oh, and ATL, I hear you on advice from an expert, but there are non experts who will give expert advice that can kill you, if you are not careful. My eternal salvation is one definite situation in which I will not follow inexpert advice.

...but to each their own!

[reese]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

Its actually the priesthood that will not be removed from the earth, not the church. Read the thread titled: Church of the Firstborn, in this section of the forum. It will explain the difference.

Thank you...I'll look into that one!

PS....looks like dangerous ground to me. I think this line from Rand is wise advice (especially in internet land where you assume one thing and later find out they left the church 20 some odd years ago)...

Oh, and ATL, I hear you on advice from an expert, but there are non experts who will give expert advice that can kill you, if you are not careful. My eternal salvation is one definite situation in which I will not follow inexpert advice.

True enough Legion. But on the flip side, what if it is true and you pass it up because of fear? It is a very narrow path we must walk, so easy to step off of.

[jcricket6048]

At this time Joseph Smith was not willing to discuss the temple ordinances of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood, of marriage for time and eternity, or of sealing children to parents; nevertheless, he indicated that the conferral of the fulness of the priesthood was a "sealing…on top of the head", of which the phrase "sealed in their foreheads" was symbolic. Furthermore, Joseph Smith here taught that it was through the ordinance of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood that men could be qualified to be a part of the special missionary force of the last days which would number 144,000 high priests (D&C 77:8-11, 14). When Cornelius P. Lott and his wife received these ordinances on 4 February 1844, the Prophet indicated that "the selection of the persons to form that number had already commenced." He had already conferred these blessings on at least 17 men (History of the Church, 6:196)

Bro. Lott passed away in 1850. He was not translated.

that is right one4freedom, but some of them will be resurrected beings that will be part of this great missionary work abroad so some will be resurrected, some will be translated. Either way they must have power over death to perform this great work.

[Steve Clark]

At this time Joseph Smith was not willing to discuss the temple ordinances of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood, of marriage for time and eternity, or of sealing children to parents; nevertheless, he indicated that the conferral of the fulness of the priesthood was a "sealing…on top of the head", of which the phrase "sealed in their foreheads" was symbolic. Furthermore, Joseph Smith here taught that it was through the ordinance of conferral of the fulness of the priesthood that men could be qualified to be a part of the special missionary force of the last days which would number 144,000 high priests (D&C 77:8-11, 14). When Cornelius P. Lott and his wife received these ordinances on 4 February 1844, the Prophet indicated that "the selection of the persons to form that number had already commenced." He had already conferred these blessings on at least 17 men (History of the Church, 6:196)

Bro. Lott passed away in 1850. He was not translated.

that is right one4freedom, but some of them will be resurrected beings that will be part of this great missionary work abroad so some will be resurrected, some will be translated. Either way they must have power over death to perform this great work.

Absolutely, I agree. The purpose of this thread was to address the claim by Mark that Amonhi couldn't be a member of the 144k because he hasn't been translated. I see no doctrinal support to backup this claim. So far it seems to me that the 144k would have power to stave off death when the time arises, but I can't see any doctrine pointing to translation as a prerequisite to being among the 144k.

[Gideon]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

Legion, the church of the Firstborn is the church of Christ in the Celestial Kingdom. Membership is obtained by having your calling and election made sure. The 144,000 could be considered missionaries for the church of the Firstborn.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—
(Doctrine and Covenants 88:3–5‎)‎

I like the explanation that I read in Light in the Wilderness:

"Circles of Commitment
"As Joseph describes above, there are two main stages in the life of a member. These might be illustrated as one large circle with a smaller concentric circle. At the very center of the circles is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The outer circle pertains to the preparatory Church which helps the children of God to understand their potential, to move toward their high destiny, and to provide the means by which they enter the inner circle. In fact, the earth was created and the Church established to make possible their entrance into that holy, inner circle.

"With baptism we enter into the first circle, the preparatory one. In this phase we undertake the probation of Church membership. The Hosts of Heaven watch quietly as we choose our way. What is the intent of the heart? According to plan, we move forward toward the inner circle, albeit unevenly, increasing our ability to obey and keep covenant with the Lord, demonstrating our intention to “serve Him at all hazards,” entering more deeply into the promises of the Lord. Here we make continuing adjustments in our life as we order it before Him.

"Within this outer, preparatory circle we find two groups. It is to the teaching and conversion of these two groups that the greater ministry of the Church is directed: (1) those who have just entered this outer circle by baptism and are beginning their probation and (2) those who have gotten stuck in selective commandment keeping and casual intent."

Thomas, M. Catherine (2012-02-27). Light in the Wilderness - Explorations in the Spiritual Life (Kindle Locations 3829-3835). Digital Legend Press. Kindle Edition.

[Mark]

Okay maybe I'm very ignorant here but I fail to see the distinction. Church goes through some changes but its still the same church (never to again be removed from the earth) right? We've certainly gone through many changes already during the past century and change....polygamy, priesthood, etc.

Legion, the church of the Firstborn is the church of Christ in the Celestial Kingdom. Membership is obtained by having your calling and election made sure. The 144,000 could be considered missionaries for the church of the Firstborn.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—
(Doctrine and Covenants 88:3–5‎)‎

I like the explanation that I read in Light in the Wilderness:

"Circles of Commitment
"As Joseph describes above, there are two main stages in the life of a member. These might be illustrated as one large circle with a smaller concentric circle. At the very center of the circles is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The outer circle pertains to the preparatory Church which helps the children of God to understand their potential, to move toward their high destiny, and to provide the means by which they enter the inner circle. In fact, the earth was created and the Church established to make possible their entrance into that holy, inner circle.

"With baptism we enter into the first circle, the preparatory one. In this phase we undertake the probation of Church membership. The Hosts of Heaven watch quietly as we choose our way. What is the intent of the heart? According to plan, we move forward toward the inner circle, albeit unevenly, increasing our ability to obey and keep covenant with the Lord, demonstrating our intention to “serve Him at all hazards,” entering more deeply into the promises of the Lord. Here we make continuing adjustments in our life as we order it before Him.

"Within this outer, preparatory circle we find two groups. It is to the teaching and conversion of these two groups that the greater ministry of the Church is directed: (1) those who have just entered this outer circle by baptism and are beginning their probation and (2) those who have gotten stuck in selective commandment keeping and casual intent."

Thomas, M. Catherine (2012-02-27). Light in the Wilderness - Explorations in the Spiritual Life (Kindle Locations 3829-3835). Digital Legend Press. Kindle Edition.

Great explanation from Sis. Thomas Gideon. Thanks for sharing it. I am looking forward to reading Her book after I finish reading The Triumph of Zion.

[Mark]

Absolutely, I agree. The purpose of this thread was to address the claim by Mark that Amonhi couldn't be a member of the 144k because he hasn't been translated. I see no doctrinal support to backup this claim. So far it seems to me that the 144k would have power to stave off death when the time arises, but I can't see any doctrine pointing to translation as a prerequisite to being among the 144k.

My understanding one4freedom was that the 144,000 and those who will assist them who have had their calling and election made sure will be called into action in the temple after the time of the grand council held at Adam-Ondi-Ahman where the keys will be transfered to Christ as our rightful King and that these 144,000 will be chosen to preform necessary priesthood ordinances involved with sealing the Saints up unto eternal life.

"...And there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the Children of Israel... these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in his temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them". (Rev. 7)

That is not to say that some of these 144,000 have not already been selected for this glorious mission.

"At this time Joseph Smith indicated that the conferral of the fullness of the Priesthood was a sealing... on top of the head, of which the phrase "sealed in their foreheads" was symbolic. Furthermore Joseph here taught that it was through the ordinance of conferral of the fullness of the Priesthood that men could be qualified to be part of the special missionary force of the last days which would number 144,000 high priests(D&C 77:8-11,14) ... On 4 Feb 1844, the Prophet indicated that the selection of the persons to form that number had already commenced. He had already conferred these blessings on at least 17 men. (HOTC 6:196)

[Raindrop]

Its actually the priesthood that will not be removed from the earth, not the church. . .

That is right. And that is also the simple reason there will not be any translated beings in this last dispensation. Translation is the means by which priesthood keys are removed from the earth. The priesthood will never again be removed from the earth.

That is why I have rejected Pontius's message for the most part. If he claims to have the experiences he claims to have, he should know this basic doctrine.

If Amonhi had answered my question regarding translation in the affirmative, I'd have rejected him as a liar and a fraud.