Multiple Mortal Probations Article

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:35 pm

janderich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:41 am
Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:18 am
There is no doctrine of passing a probation - the HG has no probation.
“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.) Those that have ears to hear let them hear.
I don't accept that second hand quote as being truth, also the HG is different to all the children of the Father except for Christ as he was a member of the Godhead in the preexistence.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:44 pm

janderich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:31 am
Spaced_Out wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:29 pm
Grace to grace progression does not require mortal life in order to progress - in fact only Christ progressed grace to grace as he did so without sinning.
False on both accounts. First we must progress grace for grace as Christ did, “For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace” (D&C 93:20). Second, it is absolutely necessary that we enter mortality in order to learn and grow, "When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about His plan for us to become more like Him. We shouted for joy when we heard His plan (see Job 38:7). We were eager for new experiences. In order for these things to happen, we needed to leave our Father’s presence and receive mortal bodies." (Gospel Principles Ch 5 The Creation).
Yes good quote we also progress grace to grace, but we do it with some sin on the way as all have sinned and fallen short. Christ progressed the same way without sinning on the way. The end result is the same through forgiveness from the Atonement of Christ those few sins are forgiven on the way and were are perfected in Christ - no need for us to become savours and live a sinless life and progress without sin as He paid the price.
It is anti -Christ doctrine and blasphemous that we have to save ourselves and his atonement is not good enough for us to progress grace to grace..

Yes we need a mortal body only once in order to progress - through the resurrection we become immortal - that means never becoming mortal again. In the quote you listed - we were spirits prior to this earth - no multiple probation's no previous physical body.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:12 pm

inho wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:37 am
alaris wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:19 pm
If the authorities responded with something clear, that would be something more for sure but unless it's a prophet saying "nope" then I will still easily synthesize what I have learned by the Spirit with the LDS' public-facing doctrines.
In case you value your membership in the church, I would like to warn you. You are saying that "nope" from a prophet is the only chastisement you would accept. However, if you go to your bishop and he chastise you, that should be enough. If you kept teaching MMP after your bishop's chastisement, you would face church discipline. Discipline is mandatory in the case of apostasy. One of the handbook definitions for apostasy is to "persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority."
This is true and something Alaris should be aware of. Elder Oaks explained it this way:
This redemptive procedure also applies in the definition of the adult transgression of apostasy for teaching false doctrine. Knowing that there may be genuine questions about what is false doctrine, the servants of the Lord have specified a procedure for protecting a member who strays over the line innocently. This kind of apostasy is defined as “persist[ing] in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority” (General Handbook of Instructions, [1989], sec. 10, p. 3). In other words, the teaching of false doctrine may be classified as a mistake the first time it happens, but it becomes a sin and a subject for Church discipline after those in authority clarify the application of the law to what the member is teaching.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/10/sins ... s?lang=eng

As you point out, if the person persists after being corrected (by their Bishop or higher authority) it becomes a sin and they are subject to church discipline. If he's going to continue to believe this, he should keep it to himself and not try to persuade others to believe it also.
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:14 pm

janderich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:27 am
"Every world has had an Adam and an Eve, named so simply because the first man is always called Adam and the first woman, Eve. And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family. Every world that has been created has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one: it is one eternal round." (Brigham Young, "For This Is Life Eternal," in Brigham Young Addresses, 2:230)
Lets look at this quote again: What Brigham is teaching is that every family need a saviour. The doctrine is that every person entering the highest order of the celestial kingdom will have eternal increase and become a family - there are no families outside of that. That family will create worlds without number and form spirit bodies for intelligence and place them on an earth to have a mortal probation. They will need to be saved as they will sin. Yes the pattern repeats.

There is only the need for one saviour per family only one Christ - you are teaching every single person entering the celestial has to become a savour - is that Gods plan that ever person has to suffer as Christ suffered, and cant be perfected in Him without doing the same work. How can you surmise MMP in that quote -

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Some thoughts I had on this subject which I wanted to share;
First, the quote often shared from Joseph Smith jr;
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705 ... rines.html
Revelation is what attracts people into the LDS Church, but, according to Matthew Porter Wilcox, a BYU first-year graduate student in religious education, it also can push them out of the church. He quoted Joseph Smith lamenting only six months before he was martyred that Mormons "will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."Wilcox was speaking at the 11th annual Religious Education Student Symposium recently held at BYU. "We get set in the way the church is 'supposed to be,' and then when a revelation comes along, as Joseph Smith says, we 'fly to pieces,'" he said. "And the Book of Abraham is a perfect example of how that might happen."Before the Book of Abraham was translated there was great excitement among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, according to Wilcox. They anticipated a great revelation. But it took seven years before anything was published. Wilcox speculated that the delay could have been because of Joseph being too busy — but he said there is another possibility. The Mormon prophet may have been slowly introducing the doctrines contained in the translation.The first chapter of the Book of Abraham was probably translated in 1835, according to Wilcox. By Oct. 1, 1835 ,the third chapter had been translated. The third chapter touches on Kolob, the pre-earth life and intelligences. Chapter four also may have been translated in 1835 and discusses the council of the Gods. Even though some hints of these doctrines had been revealed earlier, Joseph was careful. "Joseph Smith, it seems, was aware that this might be a touchy subject with most of the Saints," Wilcox said. Wilcox said there is a pattern for how Joseph dealt with difficult doctrines. "He let these things out briefly, intermittently, little by little he pushed them forward. That was the pattern of the difficult doctrines," Wilcox said.When Joseph told people at the beginning about his First Vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, he experienced a lot of opposition. After that he did not say much about it publicly. Wilcox said it wasn't really until 1842 that it was published to the world in the Wentworth Letter — even though there are earlier accounts.Joseph also received revelation on plural marriage as early as 1831, but it wasn't until 1843 that he actually recorded, according to Wilcox, and even then it wasn't published to the world until 1852."Now we see the same type of pattern with the Book of Abraham. We don't see him coming out and publishing all these things. We see him waiting — waiting — waiting until ... Nauvoo," Wilcox said.The Book of Abraham was finally published in 1842 — but it was not the first time he had talked about the book's doctrines. In Nauvoo, however, he felt safer. "Now he can start revealing some of these deeper doctrines, and he does it piece by piece," Wilcox said.Wilcox believes that many of these doctrinal pieces culminated in the King Follett discourse.The important question for Wilcox is if Mormons are ready to receive the word of God today. "I wonder how President Monson feels about our responsiveness to the doctrines? ... I wonder what God is preparing for us now with the small and simple things he is sending forth through this prophet?"
I can see why Alaris and others feel that these things they are sharing are the mysteries and things that Joseph was teaching. This article pointed out that King Follet sermon did include things that Joseph was trying to teach them, the author claims it was teachings from the Book of Abraham. I also agree that there were early Saints who believed in various types of MMP--though not to the extent that Alaris is teaching. I also noted that they were warned by Elder George Q. Cannon not to teach these things in church. Speculation is not doctrine--it's important to recognize the difference. I can speculate about what I might have been doing in the pre-existence, but honestly, I have no idea. I have no memory and all I have to go on is the little bit of revealed knowledge from our prophets and found in our scriptures on the subject. The concern with Alaris is that he's adamant that this was revealed to him. That's fine, he can claim that for himself, but he needs to be careful of thinking that the rest of us should listen to him. We are under no obligation to believe he can reveal truths to us, he's got no stewardship over us. And, since I feel impressed that what he's sharing is not correct, I reject it. I have that right as well.

I think many members can believe all kinds of false teachings and not get into any trouble. The trouble comes if they actively attempt to persuade others to believe as they do, and what they are teaching is not in harmony with LDS doctrines. I think in this case, Alaris' version of MMP--it is not in harmony, for a number of reasons, which I've already shared so I won't go over them again. I think his Bishop would see the difficulty of reconciling his views with the role of the Savior and with Temple ordinances and sealings. I think he has a right to believe any bizarre thing he chooses to, but he should not claim that the church leaders also believe it, but keep it hidden and he shouldn't actively try to persuade other LDS to believe it also.
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:33 pm

janderich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:03 am

"We ask, then, where is the prototype? or where is the saved being? We conclude, as to the answer of this question, there will be no dispute among those who believe the bible, that it is Christ; all will agree in this, that he is the prototype or standard of salvation, or, in other words, that he is a saved being. And if we should continue our interrogation, and ask how it is that he is saved? the answer would be - because he is a just and holy being; and if he were anything different from what he is he would not be saved; for his salvation depends on his being precisely what he is and nothing else... .for salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him." (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Seventh p 76-77)

Do you believe you can obtain the same level of salvation Christ has without being like him? Do you believe you can stand in the presence of the Elohim without having obtained what they have obtained? I say you cannot.
We can never do the works of Christ no matter if we had to have a billion mortal probation. As we have come down to mortal earth and sinned and are in need of savings.
Christ came down as a spirit never previously having had a mortal body, got mortality through a miraculous birth. Grew grace to grace - lived sinless and was exalted. He also created the earth - the first man Adam fashioned after his spirit body.

It is not possible to do the works He has done as we have sinned where he never did - it is not possible to follow his 'prototype' . To be part of the God head and create a world and the body of Adam using his Spiritual body prototype.
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

You guys teach one has to be a saviour prior to becoming a god - yet Jesus was a member of the godhead, are we also going to become a member of a godhead prior to coming down to earth and saving it - using the same prototype - which comes first the chicken or the egg a member of godhood...

We cant do what he did - we have already failed and are in need of saving Did Jesus need a Chris to save Him in another world - then He would belong to that world.
MMP having to become saviours and do what Christ did is impossible just like being sealed to the same woman in many mortal probation's - it is idiotic lunacy.. You take all of Christ glory saying you will one day do the same thing and he was also a sinner on a different world and saved -
He was an elder brother and first born are you also an elder brother and first born member of the godhead, one chosen in the grand council of heaven.
Are you also going to stand up one day and say I will go down and save the people and start a big war in heave and cast out 1/3 of all the host of Heaven. Are you the same are you going to do the same works so you can be equal and usurp the power of God. This is doctrine from the deepest pits of hell and those who teach it are doing the work of Satan.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Silver » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:40 pm

I have my own testimony of the plan of salvation through experiences both personal and from those of my close friends. I know for certain that plan, as taught, is correct. Thus, alaris is sadly wrong and I hope he quickly jettisons his heretical teaching.

alaris, who on this forum do you trust the most?
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby watchthewatchers » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:01 pm

AI2.0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:44 pm
Some thoughts I had on this subject which I wanted to share;
First, the quote often shared from Joseph Smith jr;
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705 ... rines.html
Revelation is what attracts people into the LDS Church, but, according to Matthew Porter Wilcox, a BYU first-year graduate student in religious education, it also can push them out of the church. He quoted Joseph Smith lamenting only six months before he was martyred that Mormons "will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."Wilcox was speaking at the 11th annual Religious Education Student Symposium recently held at BYU. "We get set in the way the church is 'supposed to be,' and then when a revelation comes along, as Joseph Smith says, we 'fly to pieces,'" he said. "And the Book of Abraham is a perfect example of how that might happen."Before the Book of Abraham was translated there was great excitement among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, according to Wilcox. They anticipated a great revelation. But it took seven years before anything was published. Wilcox speculated that the delay could have been because of Joseph being too busy — but he said there is another possibility. The Mormon prophet may have been slowly introducing the doctrines contained in the translation.The first chapter of the Book of Abraham was probably translated in 1835, according to Wilcox. By Oct. 1, 1835 ,the third chapter had been translated. The third chapter touches on Kolob, the pre-earth life and intelligences. Chapter four also may have been translated in 1835 and discusses the council of the Gods. Even though some hints of these doctrines had been revealed earlier, Joseph was careful. "Joseph Smith, it seems, was aware that this might be a touchy subject with most of the Saints," Wilcox said. Wilcox said there is a pattern for how Joseph dealt with difficult doctrines. "He let these things out briefly, intermittently, little by little he pushed them forward. That was the pattern of the difficult doctrines," Wilcox said.When Joseph told people at the beginning about his First Vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, he experienced a lot of opposition. After that he did not say much about it publicly. Wilcox said it wasn't really until 1842 that it was published to the world in the Wentworth Letter — even though there are earlier accounts.Joseph also received revelation on plural marriage as early as 1831, but it wasn't until 1843 that he actually recorded, according to Wilcox, and even then it wasn't published to the world until 1852."Now we see the same type of pattern with the Book of Abraham. We don't see him coming out and publishing all these things. We see him waiting — waiting — waiting until ... Nauvoo," Wilcox said.The Book of Abraham was finally published in 1842 — but it was not the first time he had talked about the book's doctrines. In Nauvoo, however, he felt safer. "Now he can start revealing some of these deeper doctrines, and he does it piece by piece," Wilcox said.Wilcox believes that many of these doctrinal pieces culminated in the King Follett discourse.The important question for Wilcox is if Mormons are ready to receive the word of God today. "I wonder how President Monson feels about our responsiveness to the doctrines? ... I wonder what God is preparing for us now with the small and simple things he is sending forth through this prophet?"
I can see why Alaris and others feel that these things they are sharing are the mysteries and things that Joseph was teaching. This article pointed out that King Follet sermon did include things that Joseph was trying to teach them, the author claims it was teachings from the Book of Abraham. I also agree that there were early Saints who believed in various types of MMP--though not to the extent that Alaris is teaching. I also noted that they were warned by Elder George Q. Cannon not to teach these things in church. Speculation is not doctrine--it's important to recognize the difference. I can speculate about what I might have been doing in the pre-existence, but honestly, I have no idea. I have no memory and all I have to go on is the little bit of revealed knowledge from our prophets and found in our scriptures on the subject. The concern with Alaris is that he's adamant that this was revealed to him. That's fine, he can claim that for himself, but he needs to be careful of thinking that the rest of us should listen to him. We are under no obligation to believe he can reveal truths to us, he's got no stewardship over us. And, since I feel impressed that what he's sharing is not correct, I reject it. I have that right as well.

I think many members can believe all kinds of false teachings and not get into any trouble. The trouble comes if they actively attempt to persuade others to believe as they do, and what they are teaching is not in harmony with LDS doctrines. I think in this case, Alaris' version of MMP--it is not in harmony, for a number of reasons, which I've already shared so I won't go over them again. I think his Bishop would see the difficulty of reconciling his views with the role of the Savior and with Temple ordinances and sealings. I think he has a right to believe any bizarre thing he chooses to, but he should not claim that the church leaders also believe it, but keep it hidden and he shouldn't actively try to persuade other LDS to believe it also.
What a trip it would be to be in on that disciplinary council. By the time it gets to that point, though, alaris may be very close to leaving the church and/or just starting his own. Quite likely that he'll sneak in an audio recorder and post the whole thing on mormonleaks. Just be patient, right?

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:46 pm

inho wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:24 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 pm
inho wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:37 am
alaris wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:19 pm
If the authorities responded with something clear, that would be something more for sure but unless it's a prophet saying "nope" then I will still easily synthesize what I have learned by the Spirit with the LDS' public-facing doctrines.
In case you value your membership in the church, I would like to warn you. You are saying that "nope" from a prophet is the only chastisement you would accept. However, if you go to your bishop and he chastise you, that should be enough. If you kept teaching MMP after your bishop's chastisement, you would face church discipline. Discipline is mandatory in the case of apostasy. One of the handbook definitions for apostasy is to "persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority."
Thats a sharp turn from you're not necessarily closed to the idea. "Nope" from a prophet is not a chastisement. The prophet is the only one who can declare doctrine. No prophet has declared anything that conflicts with MMP. In fact several prophets have declared for MMP if you follow a simple logic train.

These pitchfork and torches threats are super interesting. I feel like I'm living the ancient scriptures watching it adversary stir hearts to contention. I will continue to rise above it which will of course make the ranting and threats and the lot of the fruits of the adversary more intense. I did fall into a bit of sarcasm yesterday.
Indeed, the prophet is the only one who is able to declare doctrine. However, the bishop (as a judge in Israel) is allowed to judge when someone is teaching false doctrine. That is an interesting point to consider. You seem to believe that there are hidden doctrines (like MMP) that the prophets and apostles are aware of but do not publicly speak about. If this is the case, then in principle a bishop with good intentions could unintentionally declare a doctrine false.
However, I personally do not believe that the prophets and apostles know any hidden doctrines like MMP. They might have better understanding about gospel mysteries. But I don't think those mysteries are any cosmological facts about pre- or post-mortal life. There is no need for the leaders of the church to know more than the general membership knows about that kind of things. They might have more insight in some things, they might have better idea of the future etc. But most importantly, mysteries are not facts or hidden doctrines, mysteries are about things that matter most. What matter most, is to learn to be like Christ. Mysteries are transcendental experiences, they are mysteries because one cannot explain them with words.
I suggest a study on what it means to be an especial witness of Jesus Christ. These men absolutely know things most LDS do not. However the scriptures are clear the mysteries are available to all. If you are close enough to the Lord and the Spirit to receive these mysteries you are most likely able to communicate with the Spirit well enough to know what to share and what not to share. I certainly mastered that long before receiving meat and that order makes logical sense.

And who knows? One of those permissions granted to you may not be clear at first until a new principle is given a deeper understanding such as the cause and effect nature between "we have enough" and the spirit of contention.

This is why I'm asking you to pray.

This is why they are condemning me and telling me to go see my Bishop.

If I have been receiving of the Lord, why on earth would I confess my.... Well we can't call it a sin.... Knowledge? Makes zero sense and reveals this equation of "we have enough" = "chains of hell." Especially the delivery and other fruits I've listed countless times in this thread.

Are we supposed to confess the higher truths we learn in the Temple? Or course not.

Can we share things by the Spirit we are not bound by covenant or by the Spirit to keep secert? Of course. Do we need the Bishops permission? If the Prophets haven't condemned it, they certainly can't. What percentage of Bishops might? See what I mean?

These threats are silly and only reveal both the spirit that is holding the chain and the desperate need to compensate for the inability to put forth a compelling argument by the Spirit, which of course is nearly if not entirely impossible. The Spirit converts.. Certainly not the spirit of contention. Study. Ponder. Pray. Of course sincerely submitting your will to the Father's is a necessary element, and that is impossible for anyone who's married their pride to "we have enough already to know all there is to know about the resurrection and eternal progression."

I would be really interested to see how this looks to more undecided LDS. If they weren't disinterested in being browbeaten and harangued, then perhaps they would chime in. Ah well, this is a consequence of this interesting truth.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Silver » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:03 pm

alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:46 pm
inho wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:24 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 pm
inho wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:37 am

In case you value your membership in the church, I would like to warn you. You are saying that "nope" from a prophet is the only chastisement you would accept. However, if you go to your bishop and he chastise you, that should be enough. If you kept teaching MMP after your bishop's chastisement, you would face church discipline. Discipline is mandatory in the case of apostasy. One of the handbook definitions for apostasy is to "persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority."
Thats a sharp turn from you're not necessarily closed to the idea. "Nope" from a prophet is not a chastisement. The prophet is the only one who can declare doctrine. No prophet has declared anything that conflicts with MMP. In fact several prophets have declared for MMP if you follow a simple logic train.

These pitchfork and torches threats are super interesting. I feel like I'm living the ancient scriptures watching it adversary stir hearts to contention. I will continue to rise above it which will of course make the ranting and threats and the lot of the fruits of the adversary more intense. I did fall into a bit of sarcasm yesterday.
Indeed, the prophet is the only one who is able to declare doctrine. However, the bishop (as a judge in Israel) is allowed to judge when someone is teaching false doctrine. That is an interesting point to consider. You seem to believe that there are hidden doctrines (like MMP) that the prophets and apostles are aware of but do not publicly speak about. If this is the case, then in principle a bishop with good intentions could unintentionally declare a doctrine false.
However, I personally do not believe that the prophets and apostles know any hidden doctrines like MMP. They might have better understanding about gospel mysteries. But I don't think those mysteries are any cosmological facts about pre- or post-mortal life. There is no need for the leaders of the church to know more than the general membership knows about that kind of things. They might have more insight in some things, they might have better idea of the future etc. But most importantly, mysteries are not facts or hidden doctrines, mysteries are about things that matter most. What matter most, is to learn to be like Christ. Mysteries are transcendental experiences, they are mysteries because one cannot explain them with words.
I suggest a study on what it means to be an especial witness of Jesus Christ. These men absolutely know things most LDS do not. However the scriptures are clear the mysteries are available to all. If you are close enough to the Lord and the Spirit to receive these mysteries you are most likely able to communicate with the Spirit well enough to know what to share and what not to share. I certainly mastered that long before receiving meat and that order makes logical sense.

And who knows? One of those permissions granted to you may not be clear at first until a new principle is given a deeper understanding such as the cause and effect nature between "we have enough" and the spirit of contention.

This is why I'm asking you to pray.

This is why they are condemning me and telling me to go see my Bishop.

If I have been receiving of the Lord, why on earth would I confess my.... Well we can't call it a sin.... Knowledge? Makes zero sense and reveals this equation of "we have enough" = "chains of hell." Especially the delivery and other fruits I've listed countless times in this thread.

Are we supposed to confess the higher truths we learn in the Temple? Or course not.

Can we share things by the Spirit we are not bound by covenant or by the Spirit to keep secert? Of course. Do we need the Bishops permission? If the Prophets haven't condemned it, they certainly can't. What percentage of Bishops might? See what I mean?

These threats are silly and only reveal both the spirit that is holding the chain and the desperate need to compensate for the inability to put forth a compelling argument by the Spirit, which of course is nearly if not entirely impossible. The Spirit converts.. Certainly not the spirit of contention. Study. Ponder. Pray. Of course sincerely submitting your will to the Father's is a necessary element, and that is impossible for anyone who's married their pride to "we have enough already to know all there is to know about the resurrection and eternal progression."

I would be really interested to see how this looks to more undecided LDS. If they weren't disinterested in being browbeaten and harangued, then perhaps they would chime in. Ah well, this is a consequence of this interesting truth.
And it came to pass that alarisherem first practiced his heresy on an obscure website in front of a small audience prior to launching his book-writing and speech-giving career which he hoped would lead to a large following that would appoint him as their prophet. And thus we see that he soon boasted of his superiority while trying to couch his words in soothing pleas to just pray to know that his heresy was true, fooling only a small portion of the people. And thus we see that the old serpent, even the devil, did bind alarisherem with his chains until alarisherem refused to go see his bishop to gain an understanding of how he had polluted the word of God. And thus the people who were not fooled by his subtle heresies did mourn for the loss of alarisherem's soul.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:06 pm

HappyCamper8 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:16 am
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:05 am
HappyCamper8 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:08 am
AI2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:58 am





The temple is symbolic, there is much to learn there and much that you may be missing. It's not meant to be taken a 'god breathed'. I seriously doubt Peter, James and John walked about and shook hands. We also don't know exactly HOW Lucifer beguiled Eve, he didn't have to carry the fruit. Also, the serpent may have been involved. As members of the church, knowing the doctrines of the church, we are to understand they are in spirit form...even though they are portrayed by physical actors. Jesus showed himself to Nephi before he was born, he was a spirit.

Spirit is a form of matter, as well. I person may feel the 'touch' of a spirit.

Both of you are being too literal and not recognizing that you need to learn not by sight alone, but through other senses when communing in the Temple.
I'm pretty sure they are relating D&C 129 to the shaking of hands. And if they didn't shake hands, how did they know who it really was? Without going into it too much online.

btw, I had this question in the past and heard of a possible solution which made me think, eh, there's probably an explanation to it so haven't worried too much about it.
Funny to see the selective literal interpretation. It says never but that's not a real handshake.
Alaris, I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you mean by "It says never but that's not a real handshake." Thanks.
Apologies HappyCamper8. It's been a super busy week. I've done my best to stay engaged in this thread, but that has meant more misspelled words than usual and shorter posts. Here is what I mean.

Naysayer: "The resurrection is the spirit and the body reuniting never to be divided! It's literal! It means forever ever foreverness! Sure Adam was forever never to die until he did, and sure endless torment was a deliberate word play to hide the meat from the milk drinkers, but this time .. this time it says never! You're not reading it right. I'll post it 10 more times. etc."

Naysayer: *read this in Pat Gray's genius voice* "Well Lucifer carried an apple sure, and Peter, James, and John shook hands sure ... but that's just figurative!"

Sorry that felt like mocking. It's been a long week and I try to draw the line at sarcasm. Like I said, I've still a ways to go myself on my progression.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that of course there are symbols and of course there are things that are literal. But trying to judge which is which and throwing up a hard wall is about the dumbest thing you can do to yourself. Humbly submit to the Father as a child submits to a parent. I've referred to Mosiah 3:19 enough in this thread, I should actually quote it here. Perhaps this will reinforce the amazing lesson I've learned witnessing the... *thinking of a civil word*... base.. attacks in this thread:
Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
Submissive, meek, humble, patient (I'm actually doing a little better here all sarcasm aside), full of love (need some improvement here). Still this formula is exactly what is needed to counter the effects of Alma 12. I mean, is there any level of self awareness here. *Pat Gray voice again* Well gee ... I know Jesus says love thy neighbor but Alaris is a sick, lying troll whose membership should be revoked. I mean maybe if it were me truly lost I'd throw in some love there....

Well, this is a great lesson for me as well. I love you guys. Truly. Pray. Just ... pray. Ask for guidance - be nonspecific - and listen. The Lord loves you all and wants you all to succeed on the path to salvation, whether that's one body or many.
Last edited by alaris on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:16 pm

AI2.0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:44 pm
Some thoughts I had on this subject which I wanted to share;
First, the quote often shared from Joseph Smith jr;
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705 ... rines.html
Revelation is what attracts people into the LDS Church, but, according to Matthew Porter Wilcox, a BYU first-year graduate student in religious education, it also can push them out of the church. He quoted Joseph Smith lamenting only six months before he was martyred that Mormons "will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."Wilcox was speaking at the 11th annual Religious Education Student Symposium recently held at BYU. "We get set in the way the church is 'supposed to be,' and then when a revelation comes along, as Joseph Smith says, we 'fly to pieces,'" he said. "And the Book of Abraham is a perfect example of how that might happen."Before the Book of Abraham was translated there was great excitement among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, according to Wilcox. They anticipated a great revelation. But it took seven years before anything was published. Wilcox speculated that the delay could have been because of Joseph being too busy — but he said there is another possibility. The Mormon prophet may have been slowly introducing the doctrines contained in the translation.The first chapter of the Book of Abraham was probably translated in 1835, according to Wilcox. By Oct. 1, 1835 ,the third chapter had been translated. The third chapter touches on Kolob, the pre-earth life and intelligences. Chapter four also may have been translated in 1835 and discusses the council of the Gods. Even though some hints of these doctrines had been revealed earlier, Joseph was careful. "Joseph Smith, it seems, was aware that this might be a touchy subject with most of the Saints," Wilcox said. Wilcox said there is a pattern for how Joseph dealt with difficult doctrines. "He let these things out briefly, intermittently, little by little he pushed them forward. That was the pattern of the difficult doctrines," Wilcox said.When Joseph told people at the beginning about his First Vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, he experienced a lot of opposition. After that he did not say much about it publicly. Wilcox said it wasn't really until 1842 that it was published to the world in the Wentworth Letter — even though there are earlier accounts.Joseph also received revelation on plural marriage as early as 1831, but it wasn't until 1843 that he actually recorded, according to Wilcox, and even then it wasn't published to the world until 1852."Now we see the same type of pattern with the Book of Abraham. We don't see him coming out and publishing all these things. We see him waiting — waiting — waiting until ... Nauvoo," Wilcox said.The Book of Abraham was finally published in 1842 — but it was not the first time he had talked about the book's doctrines. In Nauvoo, however, he felt safer. "Now he can start revealing some of these deeper doctrines, and he does it piece by piece," Wilcox said.Wilcox believes that many of these doctrinal pieces culminated in the King Follett discourse.The important question for Wilcox is if Mormons are ready to receive the word of God today. "I wonder how President Monson feels about our responsiveness to the doctrines? ... I wonder what God is preparing for us now with the small and simple things he is sending forth through this prophet?"
I can see why Alaris and others feel that these things they are sharing are the mysteries and things that Joseph was teaching. This article pointed out that King Follet sermon did include things that Joseph was trying to teach them, the author claims it was teachings from the Book of Abraham. I also agree that there were early Saints who believed in various types of MMP--though not to the extent that Alaris is teaching. I also noted that they were warned by Elder George Q. Cannon not to teach these things in church. Speculation is not doctrine--it's important to recognize the difference. I can speculate about what I might have been doing in the pre-existence, but honestly, I have no idea. I have no memory and all I have to go on is the little bit of revealed knowledge from our prophets and found in our scriptures on the subject. The concern with Alaris is that he's adamant that this was revealed to him. That's fine, he can claim that for himself, but he needs to be careful of thinking that the rest of us should listen to him. We are under no obligation to believe he can reveal truths to us, he's got no stewardship over us. And, since I feel impressed that what he's sharing is not correct, I reject it. I have that right as well.

I think many members can believe all kinds of false teachings and not get into any trouble. The trouble comes if they actively attempt to persuade others to believe as they do, and what they are teaching is not in harmony with LDS doctrines. I think in this case, Alaris' version of MMP--it is not in harmony, for a number of reasons, which I've already shared so I won't go over them again. I think his Bishop would see the difficulty of reconciling his views with the role of the Savior and with Temple ordinances and sealings. I think he has a right to believe any bizarre thing he chooses to, but he should not claim that the church leaders also believe it, but keep it hidden and he shouldn't actively try to persuade other LDS to believe it also.
Perfect post! Well, except for the right I have to believe and share the belief that what has been revealed to me isn't hidden from - and certainly not inaccessible to - the Apostles and Prophets. Of course I can believe that and not be under any sort of condemnation for sharing that belief--that is of course unless we do indeed have enough and should say such and see what happens. You know, stop trying to learn line upon line, precept upon precet and instead dedicate our time to teach this idea that every truth has already been revealed (seriously LOL - sorry I hate LOLs but it has been a long week.)

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything on MMP. I've written better article disclaimers ... you know what AI2.0 ... I'm going to update my disclaimer and flesh it out a bit more like I usually do. I'll paste it here too. Please read it and stop accusing my of trying to convince anyone of anything that isn't confirmed by or rejected by the Holy Ghost. For if I am mistaken and I'm just that terrible at his line upon line thing, then the Spirit will make that clear and you will not have to rely on the kind, gentle words of the naysayers in this thread who teach us it's a waste of time to pray.
This article is not official, publicly held doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This article reflects my own journey to receive line upon line as laid out in 2 Nephi 28:30, and I have felt impressed to share my thoughts and feelings on Multiple Mortal Probations. Please pray before reading for the guidance of The Holy Ghost who reveals all truth and ultimately all error.
Perhaps we can stop insulting people's intelligence and ability to make up their minds for themselves. Trying to shame or shut people down into silence (not necessarily you AI2.0) is certainly a way to achieve your ends but that is not the Lord's way. That is the way of compulsion - a tactic used by another former Son of the Morning.

I can only imagine why God has permitted me to share this as his ways are above my ways, and his thoughts are above my thoughts. I just hope there's a little more constructive ripple effect than me alone witnessing the truth of Alma 12.

Despite the attempts to twist MMP to an endless recycle program or any other conclusion that can only be made in pride without ratification from the Holy Spirit - MMP does deepen and widen the importance of life. Whether there are two probations or four or 5,000 - the fact that God took at least two himself should tell you that both were equally as important to his progression. This truth gives me more hope to the eternal family. I believe I have been married to my wife before. She feels the same. Sure, we could be mistaken, but does this bring us closer to or further away from Christ? If we have one more life or two or three or many, she is sealed to me. The Holy Spirit of promise was at our temporal wedding. How can that be? I guess there are other explanations - and I am open to receive. I pray to receive more all the time. I have never claimed to have all the answers - anyone who puts forth that spirit and is not the Lord Himself is lying to you. Even prophets who have had a full vision such as John and the Brother of Jared have not received all light yet as there day is not perfect. The idea that this doctrine is dangerous is just wrong. It has expanded and expounded my light and my testimony - my desire to do good. If you give space to plant this seed, you can see too, but those who are too busy stomping on the seed will, of course, never be able to see eye to eye on this.
Alma 32:30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
You can take my invitation to plant this seed by studying, pondering, and praying with humble sincerity. Or you can listen to those who are stomping on the seed as vigorously as they can on the pavement without ever having planted it. Of course, their behavior is just as telling for those who can step back and take an unbiased look.
Moroni 7:6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby mirkwood » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:32 pm

alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:46 pm
This is why I'm asking you to pray.
Funny how often the heretics and apostates say this. It's like they think we haven't. :roll:
God, family, country, our three great loyalties.

No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed to those who direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom. ~Bruce R. McConkie, CR Oct 1984

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:33 pm

alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:16 pm
You can take my invitation to plant this seed by studying, pondering, and praying with humble sincerity. Or you can listen to those who are stomping on the seed as vigorously as they can on the pavement without ever having planted it. Of course, their behavior is just as telling for those who can step back and take an unbiased look.
I just had a thought about MMP, according to those that support this theory on here. We all have to do what Christ did and perfect ourselves till we can live a sinless life.
If one thinks of it every world created at most only has one perfected sinless being coming down and living on it. That makes only one person saved per created world. I.e this world only one person will be saved as on Jesus came down lived sinless and atoned... That is a lot of planning and work just to save one individual.

The teaching actually is each God only has one saviour for all his endless creations, Jesus was in fact the saviour for world without number that God has created. How do those that preach MPP justify that God is so foolish to only be able to save one person per planet created. :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

You see @alaris I have planted the seed of MMP and am watering it and giving it dung day and night, and praying and meditating about it day and night- but for some reason the seed keeps dying and never growing -

:?: :?: perhaps as the Prophet Alma says we can get a perfect knowledge that it is a bad seed and should be cast out. Thoughts about MMP keep coming to me like how are we Christ, how is only one person saved per earth, does my wife also have to be a saviour and sacrifice for some unknown being as all of the Father creations are saved by Jesus.....

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm

Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:33 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:16 pm
You can take my invitation to plant this seed by studying, pondering, and praying with humble sincerity. Or you can listen to those who are stomping on the seed as vigorously as they can on the pavement without ever having planted it. Of course, their behavior is just as telling for those who can step back and take an unbiased look.
I just had a thought about MMP, according to those that support this theory on here. We all have to do what Christ did and perfect ourselves till we can live a sinless life.
If one thinks of it every world created at most only has one perfected sinless being coming down and living on it. That makes only one person saved per created world. I.e this world only one person will be saved as on Jesus came down lived sinless and atoned... That is a lot of planning and work just to save one individual.

The teaching actually is each God only has one saviour for all his endless creations, Jesus was in fact the saviour for world without number that God has created. How do those that preach MPP justify that God is so foolish to only be able to save one person per planet created. :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

You see @alaris I have planted the seed of MMP and am watering it and giving it dung day and night, and praying and meditating about it day and night- but for some reason the seed keeps dying and never growing -

:?: :?: perhaps as the Prophet Alma says we can get a perfect knowledge that it is a bad seed and should be cast out. Thoughts about MMP keep coming to me like how are we Christ, how is only one person saved per earth, does my wife also have to be a saviour and sacrifice for some unknown being as all of the Father creations are saved by Jesus.....
This is actually quite amusing as I had a similar - albeit less hostile - reaction when I realized this. I'm so glad you've at least planted the seed enough to realize this Spaced_Out. You may be surprised where it leads you. There are two slight corrections.

One exalted being per creation who receives the fullness of the Father
Creation = worlds not world

Just one truly exalted being per creation! What a daunting thought! Read through my seven levels articles and you'll see there is a logical progression to Godhood. Each of the laws of the gospel align to each of the areas of self mastery - actions, desires, words, and thoughts - with the final law of the gospel aligning to the final trial before achieving Sonship. Not coincidentally, the mastery of thoughts - aligned to the law of chastity - this level must be overcome as it is aligned to the sixth promise of overcoming where the true name of the Father is revealed along with the new name of the Son. This is the promise given to the archangels which is why they are able to interact with the Father at a whole other level as everyone else, including the Apostles. Again - not coincidentally - your mind must become a sacred place - a temple - before God and His Christ can dwell there - with their true names revealed.

And yes - you must then overcome the law of consecration by being an Adam and an Eve - Janderich I think shared that BY quote about worlds and Adams and Eves - a great quote about MMP and not Adam > Jehovah heresy (an actual heresy yw.) Anyway, yes. You must become an Adam before becoming a Son. If the Holy Ghost = Adam it would have been revealed as such imho - but I think there is a complexity there that is still hidden from us, and I absolutely believe it has something to do with the Davidic Servant.

Finally - there are symbols of this fact - that only one soul per creation is truly exalted - one soul per creation who inherits all. Can you think of any conception symbols there that mirror that truth?

Again, we don't have all the ins and outs revealed - have you read 2 Nephi 28 and Alma 12? Are you aware of the pattern of receiving? Can you acknowledge maybe there's something about the resurrection and eternal progression that you may yet have to learn? Or do we have enough already, and let's SCREAM at each other with exclamation marks until one of us gets tired of the exercise?

Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm

alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm

Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...
Maybe ... lol ;)

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 am

alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm
Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...
Maybe ... lol ;)

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.
The purpose of all those harsh words is to force the matter to a conclusion and bring out the real issue. Behind every doctrine there are underlying principles that support it in the mind of the person teaching the doctrine. Most of the underlying doctrine that you use to support MMP has been squeezed out. And we have now got to the grand finale - one person saved per world and that is the person who is doing the saving.

I have to challenge things so no investigator or newly baptised person can have their faith destroyed. No person reading this thread can now be deceived - the truth is out there in plainness and my job is done.
Last edited by Spaced_Out on Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:33 am

Spaced_Out wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 am
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm
Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...
Maybe ... lol ;)

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.
The purpose of all those harsh words is to force the matter to a conclusion and bring out the real issue. Behind every doctrine there are underlying principles that support it in the mind of the person teaching the doctrine. Most of the underlying doctrine that you use to support MMP has been squeezed out. And we have now got to the grand finale - one saviour per world and that is the person saving the world.

I have to challenge things so no investigator or newly baptised person can have their faith destroyed. No person reading this thread can now be deceived - the truth is out there in plainness and my job is done.
Well pat yourself on your back along with the satisfying conclusion you reached with all your harsh language and misstatements including your above text about one Savior per world.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:37 am

alaris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:33 am
Spaced_Out wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 am
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm
Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...
Maybe ... lol ;)

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.
The purpose of all those harsh words is to force the matter to a conclusion and bring out the real issue. Behind every doctrine there are underlying principles that support it in the mind of the person teaching the doctrine. Most of the underlying doctrine that you use to support MMP has been squeezed out. And we have now got to the grand finale - one person saved per world and that is the person doing the saving.

I have to challenge things so no investigator or newly baptised person can have their faith destroyed. No person reading this thread can now be deceived - the truth is out there in plainness and my job is done.
Well pat yourself on your back along with the satisfying conclusion you reached with all your harsh language and misstatements including your above text about one Savior per world.
I fixed the text...wording seconds prior to your post - as you can see it is changed in your comment as well.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby alaris » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:55 am

Spaced_Out wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:37 am
alaris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:33 am
Spaced_Out wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 am
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm


Maybe ... lol ;)

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.
The purpose of all those harsh words is to force the matter to a conclusion and bring out the real issue. Behind every doctrine there are underlying principles that support it in the mind of the person teaching the doctrine. Most of the underlying doctrine that you use to support MMP has been squeezed out. And we have now got to the grand finale - one person saved per world and that is the person doing the saving.

I have to challenge things so no investigator or newly baptised person can have their faith destroyed. No person reading this thread can now be deceived - the truth is out there in plainness and my job is done.
Well pat yourself on your back along with the satisfying conclusion you reached with all your harsh language and misstatements including your above text about one Savior per world.
I fixed the text...wording seconds prior to your post - as you can see it is changed in your comment as well.
It was more broken?

I'm trying to find a polite way to say this. You may want to reread my earlier correction. If your misstatements aren't deliberate then you may want to spend more time reading before concluding.

One Son becomes a Father per creation of worlds under His own dominion. Be perfect as I am perfect He taught. Simple.

Also, Saved / Salvation has quite a different meaning than fulness / exaltation.

Way to save the investigator who is 12 pages deep in a thread on multiple mortal probations by such a stellar example of Christ like harshness, misstatements, and condemnation with the invitation that they can discover all truth by the Spirit. No wait that last part was me.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby inho » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 am

alaris,
My earlier comment was not meant to be a threat. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that local priesthood leaders have the right to judge what is false doctrine and what is not. AI2.0 pointed out that a stake president has condemned MMP. Your response was to dismiss that because it was just some stake president. I just wanted to say that if your stake president or bishop took the same stance on MMP and asked you not to teach it (and I'm surprised if they wouldn't take that stance), there really would be serious consequences.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby janderich » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:19 am

Spaced_Out wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm
alaris wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...
You have mixed up terms here until they are not clear. Many will be saved through the grace of God and his Son. Because of the resurrection all the righteous will be saved from spiritual and physical death. We will enter the celestial kingdom and receive our glory. Exaltation however is another matter. Indeed we prepare for it on this earth and we will be exalted to the extent that we have grown. But exaltation is a matter that extends well beyond this short mortality. It will continue into the next eternal round, and the next. Eternal progression, eternal exaltation.

Is it really surprising then that Christ has reached an exaltation well above our own? Is it surprising that his exaltation is unique among all the inhabitants of the earth? He was a God before the world was created! Perhaps now you can see how far he actually condescended, when he came to this fallen, mortal realm with all of us.

Now, I also want to let you know that we are not alone in this thinking. For example, Hugh Nibley discussing 2 Jehu (a gnostic text) says:
And this tells us that a person who is sent to take charge of a new world, as Adam was sent to take charge of this world, is called a Jehu, a form of the word “Jehovah”. And then he says, “As Jehu’s become fathers,” (once you have become established, then you become a father), “then you will appoint Jehus for new worlds who will in time become fathers and so on ad infinitum.” So you have the Jehu’s being promoted to fathers and then sending out other sons as Jehu’s and so forth. Each aeon has created for its own host ten thousand times ten thousand. ...Origen is always quoting from the early Church. He says, “This is not my opinion, this is what they used to teach,” what the elders used to teach, when he says, “There will be another world after this one. And in the same way there were other worlds before this one. We thus share a common nature with other worlds.” Or as Methodius, who was the last man to organize this material and bring it together, in the 18th volume of the Patrilogia, “Christ came down from his vast rule and kingdoms and other worlds to save one percent of those on this evil earth. And to enroll the human race in the heavenly register.” For this work is going on in a vast scale and it involves many other worlds. (see https://sites.lib.byu.edu/nibley/1974/0 ... criptures/)
This gospel is more glorious and vast and our progression more extended then this fallen world is willing to accept.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby janderich » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 am

inho wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 am
alaris,
My earlier comment was not meant to be a threat. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that local priesthood leaders have the right to judge what is false doctrine and what is not. AI2.0 pointed out that a stake president has condemned MMP. Your response was to dismiss that because it was just some stake president. I just wanted to say that if your stake president or bishop took the same stance on MMP and asked you not to teach it (and I'm surprised if they wouldn't take that stance), there really would be serious consequences.
Perhaps alaris errs in his doctrine. What of it? I would simply say don't teach it as if it were an established doctrine of the LDS church. But I am tired to the core of members of this church trying to limit others and tell them what they must believe and what they must share. Discussion and discourse allow us to learn and grow. Joseph once said this of other religions, "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things, but the creeds set up stakes, and say, "Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further,' which I cannot subscribe to" (HC 6:67). This might very well be said of many of the members of our church now days. Wherever I see it I likewise cannot subscribe to it.

Based on the criteria a few have set forth here Hugh Nibley should have been excommunicated.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Abraham came down as a spirit and now has gained his exaltation... How do you explain that - when the scriptures say saved it is the same as exaltation - when we repent of our sins and are forgiven and come out sinless we are then saved according to the promise of the ordinances or salvation. We have eternal increase never to be separated from our bodies and never to be separate from God or in other words eternal life..

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

Abraham 3:23-24
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

What do the scriptures and church teach concerning exaltation...... You cant just make up your own doctrine that contradicts all things we are taught in scripture and by the prophets...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/exalt ... ang=eng#p5
The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom.

In thy presence is fulness of joy, Ps. 16:11.
They are gods, even the sons of God—wherefore, all things are theirs, D&C 76:58–59.
The Saints shall receive their inheritance and be made equal with him, D&C 88:107.
These angels did not abide my law; therefore, they remain separately and singly, without exaltation, D&C 132:17.
Men and women must marry according to God’s law in order to gain exaltation, D&C 132:19–20.
Strait is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation, D&C 132:22–23.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have entered into their exaltation, D&C 132:29, 37.
I seal upon you your exaltation, D&C 132:49.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

The first resurrection at the second coming all the righteous saints will be exalted and equal to Christ... This is not a future estate but a direct received salvation and exaltation at the coming where one is resurrected never to be separated from our bodies again and receive exaltation...
Last edited by Spaced_Out on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:39 pm

I have previously mentioned about Christ visiting all the spirits in the spirit world after his crucifixion Adam to all the righteous dead were there i.e. they had no bodies but were waiting for their redemption and long separation of their bodies from their spirits. How is that if Adam and Abraham already had immortal bodies prior to coming to earth..... Again deceit of a doctrine to destroy the church and the works of God and do the work of Satan.

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:51 pm

You guys teach we have to be sacrificed as Jesus was sacrificed in order to gain exaltation. We do not need to be a savour of a world and live a perfect life to gain exaltation as Christ has suffer for our sins. What we need to do is "offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God" we suffer in this world and choose good over evil that is offering sacrifice in the similitude or example of Jesus. alairs teaches different level of progression and the final one being law of concentration. There are many saints that have given up everything they own for the Gospel. Like in early church in Australia or South Africa people would sell their houses cars all they own take a bus trip then a train ride and boat to the nearest country that had a temple - get their endowments done and return with no job no nothing and have to rebuild their entire lives.

It is a sacrifice in the similitude of the only begotten, and suffering tribulation in the redeemers name - that is sufficient to demonstrate ability to live the law of concentration and enter into a fullness of joy and gain exaltation. The promises is certain God has redeemed us - the ordinances of salvation give the same promise - anyone teaching otherwise is anti-Christ and ad deceiver. Again note all the righteous dead from Adam to Jesus receive there redemption - resurrection never to be separated from their bodies again.... This is the teaching of the LDS church any other doctrine is fake and a lie...

D&C138
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:54 pm

janderich wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:19 am
Now, I also want to let you know that we are not alone in this thinking. For example, Hugh Nibley discussing 2 Jehu (a gnostic text) says:
And this tells us that a person who is sent to take charge of a new world, as Adam was sent to take charge of this world, is called a Jehu, a form of the word “Jehovah”. And then he says, “As Jehu’s become fathers,” (once you have become established, then you become a father), “then you will appoint Jehus for new worlds who will in time become fathers and so on ad infinitum.” So you have the Jehu’s being promoted to fathers and then sending out other sons as Jehu’s and so forth. Each aeon has created for its own host ten thousand times ten thousand. ...Origen is always quoting from the early Church. He says, “This is not my opinion, this is what they used to teach,” what the elders used to teach, when he says, “There will be another world after this one. And in the same way there were other worlds before this one. We thus share a common nature with other worlds.” Or as Methodius, who was the last man to organize this material and bring it together, in the 18th volume of the Patrilogia, “Christ came down from his vast rule and kingdoms and other worlds to save one percent of those on this evil earth. And to enroll the human race in the heavenly register.” For this work is going on in a vast scale and it involves many other worlds. (see https://sites.lib.byu.edu/nibley/1974/0 ... criptures/)
This gospel is more glorious and vast and our progression more extended then this fallen world is willing to accept.
I have no issue with that quote it does not teach MMP but that in the spirit world people are called and assigned for work to be done on this earth, and the same pattern is repeated. He also sates Christ came down to save 1% - you guys teach no one is saved only Christ saved himself - the rest of us all have to go and repeat mortality and do the same works Christ did - you are not in line with the quotes you give.......
That quote is also not official church doctrine.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Spaced_Out » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:03 pm

The promise of the ordinances of salvation are in full force when out of this world - and we go strait to exaltation....) passing by the angles and gods to our exaltation...

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Postby Silver » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Spaced_Out, thanks for all the posts. Sooner or later alarisherem will understand the depth of his deception.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson


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