Deleted

[davedan]

I pay on gross, but NET is necessary for those who own small businesses.

[Michelle]

We use to pay on net. Then we felt inspired to pay on gross. So we did.

Then we felt that we were again to return to net with in the last couple of years. (Though I don't know exactly why.) We were, however, also inspired to up our fast offerings. Not sure why putting the money in one category or another changes things, but there you go.

So, my take is to take the prophets at their word and say "we pay on our increase." Then each family should ask the Lord what that means.

Elder Bednar recently said (at a Face to Face I think) that people will ask him specific questions about things they read in the scriptures and he just tells them he is not going to tell them, that they need to pray and ask the Lord.

Edit: Added this story

Then there is this story shared by Sister Wendy Watson Nelson at Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults • January 10, 2016 • Brigham Young University–Hawaii. "Becoming the Person You Were Born to Be"

Consider President George Q. Cannon’s approach to tithing when he was an impoverished young man. When his bishop commented on the large amount of tithing poor young George was paying, George said something like: “Oh bishop, I’m not paying tithing on what I make. I’m paying tithing on what I want to make.” And the very next year George earned exactly the amount of money he had paid tithing on the year before!6

[Col. Flagg]

So here's my question... if a lot of us know that the current observance of the law of tithing as expected by church leaders for the members is unscriptural, wrong and unjust, how can they, in good conscience, continue to say nothing about the truth of it and allow members to hand over more money to them than is required by the Lord? I know I couldn't stay silent if I knew the truth and I have a hard time believing that none of the 85 men who head the church know nothing about tithing being on surplus. Thoughts?

[shadow]

So here's my question... if a lot of us know that the current observance of the law of tithing as expected by church leaders for the members is unscriptural, wrong and unjust, how can they, in good conscience, continue to say nothing about the truth of it and allow members to hand over more money to them than is required by the Lord? I know I couldn't stay silent if I knew the truth and I have a hard time believing that none of the 85 men who head the church know nothing about tithing being on surplus. Thoughts?

I think a more accurate way to word it is- a few of you think the current observance of the law of tithing as expected by the church leaders is unscriptural. The reality is that most of the members see it as scriptural. The brethren seem to see it that way too but they left the Temple Recommend question somewhat vague in that regard. It's not asked if tithing is gross or net, simply if you're a full tithe payer. If the law of tithing is too difficult then I suspect the higher law of consecration will dang near drown the netters.

How have you been anyway? I haven't seen much of you around here lately. You didn't get a plural life did you?

[Alaris]

We use to pay on net. Then we felt inspired to pay on gross. So we did.

Then we felt that we were again to return to net with in the last couple of years. (Though I don't know exactly why.) We were, however, also inspired to up our fast offerings. Not sure why putting the money in one category or another changes things, but there you go.

So, my take is to take the prophets at their word and say "we pay on our increase." Then each family should ask the Lord what that means.

Elder Bednar recently said (at a Face to Face I think) that people will ask him specific questions about things they read in the scriptures and he just tells them he is not going to tell them, that they need to pray and ask the Lord.

Edit: Added this story

Then there is this story shared by Sister Wendy Watson Nelson at Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults • January 10, 2016 • Brigham Young University–Hawaii. "Becoming the Person You Were Born to Be"

Consider President George Q. Cannon’s approach to tithing when he was an impoverished young man. When his bishop commented on the large amount of tithing poor young George was paying, George said something like: “Oh bishop, I’m not paying tithing on what I make. I’m paying tithing on what I want to make.” And the very next year George earned exactly the amount of money he had paid tithing on the year before!6

Perhaps this is why it's called fire insurance--because it's something the people are expected to be able to determine on their own. If you don't have a relationship with the Lord that is "yay" high then flame on!

Seriously though, I do think it's interesting that the context of the fire insurance is "wickedly" and "proud:"

D&C 64:23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.
24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.
25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.

To me that reads as "underpaying" and "overpaying" due to extra righteousness.

[Col. Flagg]

So here's my question... if a lot of us know that the current observance of the law of tithing as expected by church leaders for the members is unscriptural, wrong and unjust, how can they, in good conscience, continue to say nothing about the truth of it and allow members to hand over more money to them than is required by the Lord? I know I couldn't stay silent if I knew the truth and I have a hard time believing that none of the 85 men who head the church know nothing about tithing being on surplus. Thoughts?

I think a more accurate way to word it is- a few of you think the current observance of the law of tithing as expected by the church leaders is unscriptural. The reality is that most of the members see it as scriptural. The brethren seem to see it that way too but they left the Temple Recommend question somewhat vague in that regard. It's not asked if tithing is gross or net, simply if you're a full tithe payer. If the law of tithing is too difficult then I suspect the higher law of consecration will dang near drown the netters.

How have you been anyway? I haven't seen much of you around here lately. You didn't get a plural life did you?

Hello my friend - yeah, been crazy busy lately - just became a Grandpa over the weekend - she is a beauty!

Yep, I decided to take another 4 wives during my absence - I can't believe what I was missing - Fiannan would be proud!

Back to the issue at hand... that's just it though - most members have been conditioned their whole life to accept that 'increase' means 'income', which it does not, and furthermore, D&C 119 is quite explicit about the payment of tithes being on surplus properties - there is no debate here. And, much to my dismay, the church has, in many of its manuals and publications, intentionally deceived and left out important words or wording from scripture and even a few of our former Prophets, which would give the reader a clear understanding of what a proper tithe constitutes in order to make sure that the typical payment on gross or net income is what is understood. I can't believe I never even realized what D&C 119 commanded until this issue came to light on this board.

[JustDan]

Pay tithing on the net. You are tithed on your increase. As in, what you receive. So, after tax has been deducted at source.

Since when did we become a church where God blesses you more the more you pay? Not so.

I have always paid tithing net, and never been denied any blessing. Nor would I get "additional" blessings if I pay more.

[Serragon]

There appears to be 2 main disputes:

1. Gross vs Net
2. Does income = increase?

1. Since the IRS takes that money right off the top (you have no say in it), it is effectively not part of your income. Any tax return you get would be. All other expenditures are voluntary, so would actually be considered part of your income. So I believe the answer isn't gross or net, but your income minus your involuntary tax withholdings.

2. This is more difficult. If you have an annual salary of $50,000, then it would seem that you are increasing by that amount each year. It is additional to what you had before. If, however, you suffer great losses or have great expenses, it may be that the additional 50,000 doesn't actually make up for the expense and you have no actual increase. So it would seem that it is actually not possible to measure an increase without also measuring the outflow.

Which expenses should be considered? How much of them? These are not easily answered. I think the statement in the handbook is wise in that it puts that burden on the tithe payer.

I think as long as your heart is in the right place and you are truly attempting to be a true and faithful tithe payer then you are on firm ground. If you are looking for excuses or loopholes then you have built your foundation on sand.

[Col. Flagg]

Pay tithing on the net. You are tithed on your increase. As in, what you receive. So, after tax has been deducted at source.

Since when did we become a church where God blesses you more the more you pay? Not so.

I have always paid tithing net, and never been denied any blessing. Nor would I get "additional" blessings if I pay more.

Read D&C 119 - tithing was meant by the Lord to be on our surplus or discretionary income (after necessary living expenses are paid) - not gross or net income.