Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby gclayjr » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:57 pm

Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying
... in my own words
How you square the circle between what you say
Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.
and
Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.
with this from LDS.org
Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”
???

Regards,

George Clay

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby h_p » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:38 am

EdGoble wrote:you are the one that will suffer the consequences for not keeping the confidences that the Lord has entrusted you with, not me.
This is called "begging the question." Are you privy to what God commands those who have had theirs? Are you sure that's what He's telling them? Nothing you've said here indicates that's the situation--you've only given logical arguments against why it should be talked about.

But for the sake of not arguing about this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you've had that experience and know something I don't, I'll readily admit I'm wrong if that day ever comes for me.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby EdGoble » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:55 am

h_p wrote:
EdGoble wrote:you are the one that will suffer the consequences for not keeping the confidences that the Lord has entrusted you with, not me.
This is called "begging the question." Are you privy to what God commands those who have had theirs? Are you sure that's what He's telling them? Nothing you've said here indicates that's the situation--you've only given logical arguments against why it should be talked about.

But for the sake of not arguing about this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you've had that experience and know something I don't, I'll readily admit I'm wrong if that day ever comes for me.
Its actually called lack of emotion and meh. And also this thing called libertarianism. I live my life, Believe what you want. Its not my problem. I can't get wrapped up with what other people think or feel too much, because my energy is reserved for dealing with things that are of importance in life. I have no emotion about what you believe or do. Do what you want. whether I've had some experience or not is none of your business.

If my words are of value to someone, great. If they are of no value to you, then, well...

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Jeremy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:27 am

EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Jeremy Oakes

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby EdGoble » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:55 am

Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Mark » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:41 am

EdGoble wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

Thanks Ed. I would only add that if a person has properly prepared themselves by becoming sanctified through the spirit and has experienced the rebirth spoken of so often in the BOM they would have that power of discernment and would not fall for deceptive voices or counterfeits. Having ones calling and election made sure is not just for the asking because we are curious or impatient. It takes a serious effort on ones part with a life filled with discipleship and complete rejection of the natural man by strict adherence to the Spirit. I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election. You will see some stark differences between Amonhi and his fast track method and what the Lord has revealed through scripture and his true Servants.
You are a true nothing Mark.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby alaris » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:16 am

You must be born again. No man cometh unto the father but by me. Be perfect as I or your father in heaven is perfect. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

All the clues are there if one who isn't so rooted in false traditions can but have an open heart and plant the seed. If you can't become a father without first being a son.... If you can't inherit all before descending below all... If you can't be a perfect God without first being a perfect Son.... Then there are at the very least two mortal probations. If there are at least two then perhaps there are more...that's how one becomes a noble and great one. Can you become as noble as the prophets without a body?

If not then D&C 135 makes a lot more sense. The Holy Spirit of Promise is key because you have already proven yourself... In.... Past... Probations. You already received a........ Promise. You are now at a level where only certain extreme behaviors will get you kicked out. Oh Lucifer son of the morning how art Thou fallen.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The two verses above are the 5 th and 6 th uses of overcometh. Each use represents a successive trial and reward that may be linked to mortal probations. At some level the Lord gives mighty rewards and promises.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:06 pm

Mark wrote:
EdGoble wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

Thanks Ed. I would only add that if a person has properly prepared themselves by becoming sanctified through the spirit and has experienced the rebirth spoken of so often in the BOM they would have that power of discernment and would not fall for deceptive voices or counterfeits. Having ones calling and election made sure is not just for the asking because we are curious or impatient. It takes a serious effort on ones part with a life filled with discipleship and complete rejection of the natural man by strict adherence to the Spirit. I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election. You will see some stark differences between Amonhi and his fast track method and what the Lord has revealed through scripture and his true Servants.
I agree. If someone wants to read more on Calling and Election, they should read Pontius' writings, because his advice coincides with the teachings on Calling and Election.

One has to ask; how does any of us even know about the doctrine of 'Making one's calling and election sure'? We know about it because the CofJCofLDS teaches about it. That means, THE LDS CHURCH is the source for what it is, and how to get it. Yet, others have hijacked it and tried to make it their own--outside of the LDS faith--and that's part of the problem with what the people who use the Amonhi username teach on this subject. They are all anonymous and I'm quite certain many if not all of them are no longer members of the LDS church--yet they are preaching their twisted version of the doctrine, which is this:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)


In reading this, I'm not sure how anyone who has a basic understanding of Calling and Election (and a knowledge and testimony of the Gospel) could even consider this "method". "Prepare if you wish"???? It takes more than simply fasting and praying, or studying for a while--this is something that comes from overcoming trials, being obedient, keeping commandments, serving and loving others--overcoming the Natural man, submitting to the will of the Father in all things using the Atonement to cleanse our souls--in other words, becoming Sanctified. The 'Amonhi' version, which I pulled off the Amonhis' thread is nothing like what the Prophet Joseph Smith or the church teaches on this. And of course, a person who's actually to this point in their life, is not going to break commandments, commit adultery or steal. They have overcome those kinds of serious temptations and have lost the desire to sin--so that's not a concern and exactly why they have qualified for this blessing.

Having one's calling and election made sure comes after a lifetime of devotion, faithfulness and obedience, it is not something that comes simply because a person a prayed diligently for it. Praying and seeking for it is only one part. Like the 'oil' in the lamps of the wise virgins, some of what qualifies a person for their Calling and Election sure cannot be hurried or skipped over, borrowed or bought. And that's where the Elliason group (which apparently posts under the name Amonhi) have gone wrong. It IS a short cut and can't give the person what they actually desire, it's a sham and it is irresponsible to encourage people that they can achieve this glorious blessing without even mentioning the qualifying requirements which they must have.

And there's the danger of it. It absolutely opens people up to being deceived by false spirits. And, as I've read some of the claims of people who've followed the Amonhi method for Achieving a 'Calling and Election' experience, it's obvious to me they've been deceived into thinking they are seeing Christ but in fact are experiencing what Joseph Smith warned of--- evil spirits masquerading as an 'Angel of Light'. And since they are spiritually immature, they are unable to recognize this.

As members of the Lord's church we all should be desirous and working to receive our Calling and Election, but we need to beware of being deceived. Here is an article on this topic which explains it very well, for those who are interested in receiving their ACTUAL Calling and Election.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

Some quotes from the article, Joseph Smith Jr. taught:
“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Teachings, p. 348.)
Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)
“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)
Elder Marion G. Romney said this in General Conference:
President Marion G. Romney, as a member of the Council of the Twelve, admonished the Saints in general conference to make their calling and election sure and said:

“The fullness of eternal life is not attainable in mortality, but the peace which is its harbinger and which comes as a result of making one’s calling and election sure is attainable in this life. The Lord has promised that ‘… he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.’ (D&C 59:23.)
Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer. Joseph Smith Jr. made this clear:
“Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it.” (Teachings, p. 299.)
As in all things, we are to wait patiently on the Lord for his will to be done, all the while, continuing to sanctify and qualify ourselves for this blessing by the lives we lead.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby gclayjr » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:15 pm

AI2.0

Thank you for that post. Amonhi, was always verbose, and yet vague. I smelled a rat, because even in his verbosity, he denied the obvious truth. That is it is something you get after living a lifetime of following the Gospel. I still think my analogy comparing it to earning a Congressional Medal of Honor, is pretty relevant.

I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.

Again thank you for doing the homework, because I suspected it to be something like that, but it is good to get it clarified.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:47 pm

gclayjr wrote:AI2.0

Thank you for that post. Amonhi, was always verbose, and yet vague. I smelled a rat, because even in his verbosity, he denied the obvious truth. That is it is something you get after living a lifetime of following the Gospel. I still think my analogy comparing it to earning a Congressional Medal of Honor, is pretty relevant.

I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.

Again thank you for doing the homework, because I suspected it to be something like that, but it is good to get it clarified.

Regards,

George Clay
I agree, your analogy to receiving a Congressional Medal of Honor was perfect. It isn't something that someone lobbies for, but comes through actions of spiritual valor, obedience and integrity. The Amonhi way is one that is essentially 'lobbying' the Lord and ignoring that one needs to actually qualify for it. And I think it is dangerous because it makes the person vulnerable to false spirits' attempts to deceive genuinely sincere seekers.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:02 pm

Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.
First, this is an argument of irrelevance, because committing adultery is also an invitation for deception. Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.

You and I are not in a position to judge where a person is at and whether they are sealed to life eternal or to pertition, unless we know they have committed the unpardonable sin, and we can only know this if we know their calling and election is made sure.

-Finrock
You are right, we're not in a position to know whether a person has received their Calling and Election, but I think we can be pretty certain that if they are still of a mind to speak evil of church leaders or others, they aren't to that point yet. ;) (So, yea, it's pretty obvious I haven't received mine...)

As for those who've attained this level of spirituality(Calling and Election sure); They are not of a mind to commit sin. This is described in the Book of Mormon--they no longer desire to sin, but to do the will of the Father in All things--just as Christ. They follow his example completely in the way they live their lives.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Jeremy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:05 pm

gclayjr wrote:I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.
I remember, during a time of significant change in my life, trying to live righteously and trying to receive forgiveness for past sins and transgressions. I remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?

There should be no problem with an individual seeking specific blessings. I believe we have all done it. I believe we have all been encouraged to do it.

I remember another time of significant change in my life. Again I was living what I believed to be a righteous life. I asked for specific blessings and promises. I wanted to be sealed to the woman I loved. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for and seeking to receive?

We have all been encouraged to receive these blessings. We have all been encouraged to seek/ponder/pray about these blessings. Wasn't it a goal to be sealed in the temple? Don't we teach this regularly to our children? Isn't it something we have to align our lives in such a way so that we can receive the blessing?

We should remember that "living a righteous life... long enough" does not mean a 10 year old has not lived long enough. It does not mean a 30 year old has not lived long enough. We don't know what "long enough" means. Let God judge what "long enough" means.

Because we do not know what "long enough" means, we should not assume we have or have not meet the qualification. It just might be that the blessings are available to you even now and the only thing holding you back from receiving them is your own ability to preform the action of asking.

If that is the case... the fastest way for you to receive the blessing would be to ask. Duh. ;)
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:27 pm

brianj wrote:This is purely semantic, but I have difficulty with the phrase make/making your calling and election sure. We can't make anything sure, only the Lord can do so.I strongly desire to have my calling and election made sure, and I hope that I am worthy of that blessing while in mortality.
Yes, of course. It is done through the Atonement of Christ--that is what makes calling and election 'certain' or 'sure' for some in this life. I think Joseph's writings make it clear that this was not something you do yourself alone--but, you DO have some control over whether or not you qualify through the life that you lead, the choices you make etc. That's the part that the Amonhi/Elliason group ignores. They disregard the most important aspect, which is qualifying for this through the exercise of your agency. You control the choices that you make, the life that you lead. You decide whether you will be obedient to God's commandments, if you will serve and love those around you, divest yourself of pride, envy, lust, hatred, selfishness etc.. You choose if you will exercise faith and follow the example of Jesus Christ in how you live your every day life. The choices you make sanctify your life and qualify you for the assurance, IN THIS LIFE, that like the Brother of Jared, you cannot be kept from his presence and having him minister to you as what we call the second comforter.

I think your desire for this blessing is a worthy one, it's something that we each should strive for. If we want this, our leaders teach the way to receive it--they are constantly counseling and guiding us in how to raise our spirituality and qualify for this--they may not say it, but IT IS the result of living a sanctified life.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Jeremy wrote:
gclayjr wrote:I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.
I remember, during a time of significant change in my life, trying to live righteously and trying to receive forgiveness for past sins and transgressions. I remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?

There should be no problem with an individual seeking specific blessings. I believe we have all done it. I believe we have all been encouraged to do it.

I remember another time of significant change in my life. Again I was living what I believed to be a righteous life. I asked for specific blessings and promises. I wanted to be sealed to the woman I loved. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for and seeking to receive?

We have all been encouraged to receive these blessings. We have all been encouraged to seek/ponder/pray about these blessings. Wasn't it a goal to be sealed in the temple? Don't we teach this regularly to our children? Isn't it something we have to align our lives in such a way so that we can receive the blessing?

We should remember that "living a righteous life... long enough" does not mean a 10 year old has not lived long enough. It does not mean a 30 year old has not lived long enough. We don't know what "long enough" means. Let God judge what "long enough" means.

Because we do not know what "long enough" means, we should not assume we have or have not meet the qualification. It just might be that the blessings are available to you even now and the only thing holding you back from receiving them is your own ability to preform the action of asking.

If that is the case... the fastest way for you to receive the blessing would be to ask. Duh. ;)

But do you think the Lord would withhold this experience, even though you qualify, because you did not ask? I don't and the scriptures say 'The Lord knows what you need before you ask' (Matt 6:8), so that should not be a concern. The Brother of Jared did not have to ask to see the Finger of the Lord, He saw his finger because he had the faith to see him. After this, he could not be kept from the presence of the Lord.

There are many blessings we receive in our lives--one is the forgiveness of sins and yes, it is a great blessing--and it will be one we will need many times in our lives, not just once.

There is no set age at when a person can receive their Calling and Election. Mormon received his when about 15 years old. Yes, let God judge when is the right time. And in that vein, don't you think that pressing the Lord in the manner that the Amonhi group advocates may not be the right way to approach receiving this? Personally I think it shows a lack of understanding exactly what this blessing entails on their part.

And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby gclayjr » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:42 pm

Jeremy,

remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?
This is a different blessing. The fact is we have been instructed on how to receive both blessings, and the instructions are different. In the case or receiving forgiveness for our sins, we HAVE been instructed to confess them and ask for forgiveness. In the case of of Calling and election being made sure
Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness.
Rather than making it up. we should in both cases follow the Lord's instructions.

I don't know what you must do to become a Bishop. I guess some people pray and lobby for it, but that isn't how that happens. However, I know many bishops, and former bishops who think that maybe someone who wants that calling should get it just to find out that one should sometimes be careful what they ask for.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby h_p » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:13 pm

AI2.0 wrote:Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer.
Amonhi's step 3 shows that he would absolutely agree with you on this. Maybe I've overlooked something, since I'm not one of his followers and haven't read a lot of his stuff, but I haven't seen anywhere here that he's saying just sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it. If God tells you you haven't received it, how can it be a sin to ask God "what lack I yet?"

Maybe Amonhi isn't describing the process in approved Mormon lingo, but if someone refuses to ask God for personal guidance on how to obtain eternal life, I would say they're not doing it right.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:05 pm

h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer.
Amonhi's step 3 shows that he would absolutely agree with you on this. Maybe I've overlooked something, since I'm not one of his followers and haven't read a lot of his stuff, but I haven't seen anywhere here that he's saying just sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it. If God tells you you haven't received it, how can it be a sin to ask God "what lack I yet?"

Maybe Amonhi isn't describing the process in approved Mormon lingo, but if someone refuses to ask God for personal guidance on how to obtain eternal life, I would say they're not doing it right.
There isn't a problem with asking God 'What lack I yet?'--there was a great talk in General Conference by that title. It is a wonderful way to determine what we need to work on. But, in three, he doesn't ask 'what lack I yet?' he says ask 'who do I need to become?' Wouldn't the obvious answer be Jesus Christ--we are all trying to become like Jesus Christ? Seems a redundant question. Asking 'what lack I yet' is divinely tailored for the spirit to be able to answer each of us individually--but that's not what the Amonhi method urges.

The problem I have with the Amonhi method is that it IS simply about asking God for this blessing, with no thought as to what it entails to be worthy of this in the first place. Here are their steps to Receiving Calling and Election once more:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)
I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.

I don't think there's any question that the Amonhi method is not what Joseph Smith Jr. meant for us to do in seeking it. He expected us to seek Calling and Election made Sure through faithful, devotion and spiritual growth in living the Gospel and then we would come to a point where we would have the manifestation, the Second Comforter--as the Brother of Jared did, and Nephi and his brother Jacob as well.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:32 pm

Another problem with the Amonhi method in that it leaves out the necessity for approval or ratification by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which should come before one receives their Calling and Election made Sure.

The Amonhi Method:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)
From the article on Calling and Election:
Concomitant to participating in ordinances and holding the priesthood is the making of covenants. Divine covenants must be entered into and honored before a person can have his calling and election made sure. To ensure that we receive the blessings of covenants righteously entered into and followed, the Lord has established a means by which ordinances and covenants may be approved. This is through the sealing power of the Holy Spirit of Promise. When the Holy Spirit of Promise (which is the Holy Ghost) justifies a person’s performance with respect to a covenant entered into, that performance is ratified, making the covenant effective for salvation.

The influence of the Holy Ghost received by keeping the commandments also leads one to sanctification, or becoming holy and pure in heart, which involves forsaking all evil and learning to “love and serve God with all [our] mights, minds, and strength.” (D&C 20:31.) The process of sanctification comes gradually, over a long period of time, “overcoming every sin and bringing all into subjection to the law of Christ.” (Brigham Young, JD, 10:173.) It means yielding one’s heart to God, becoming one with the Savior in building his kingdom, and working for the eventual establishment of Zion. (See Hel. 3:35.) The member of the Church prepares himself by striving for sanctification; and when he has become just through the ratifying of his covenants by the Holy Ghost, and in the sight of the Lord has sanctified his life, he is a candidate for having his calling and election made sure.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Jeremy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:48 pm

AI2.0 wrote:And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.
We qualify for blessings all the time, even though they are withheld. Sometimes we do have to ask. Sometimes we do have to seek out the reception of the gift. If we don't, the gift is withheld - correct?

Im thinking about baptism. Do we need to seek out that ordinance? Are the promised blessings withheld until the ordinance is complete? One may qualify for baptism but until one is baptized... one does not receive the promised blessings - correct?

As for being vulnerable to deception because we ask for a spiritual experience which we do not qualify for... :-? Have you ever sought forgiveness and in-turn received direction on what you needed to do to qualify?

Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive them upon request. Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive direction on what it takes to qualify for the blessing.

In either case, asking for the blessing seems to be the fastest way to receive the blessing. Either you will be given it or you will be given direction on what it takes to qualify. I don't see the harm in this approach.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Jeremy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:48 pm

AI2.0 wrote:And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.
We qualify for blessings all the time, even though they are withheld. Sometimes we do have to ask. Sometimes we do have to seek out the reception of the gift. If we don't, the gift is withheld - correct?

Im thinking about baptism. Do we need to seek out that ordinance? Are the promised blessings withheld until the ordinance is complete? One may qualify for baptism but until one is baptized... one does not receive the promised blessings - correct?

As for being vulnerable to deception because we ask for a spiritual experience which we do not qualify for... :-? Have you ever sought forgiveness and in-turn received direction on what you needed to do to qualify?

Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive them upon request. Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive direction on what it takes to qualify for the blessing.

In either case, asking for the blessing seems to be the fastest way to receive the blessing. Either you will be given it or you will be given direction on what it takes to qualify. I don't see the harm in this approach.
Jeremy Oakes

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby h_p » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:48 pm

AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby seekingtruth » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:57 am

h_p wrote:
My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.
You've just summed up my feelings on the matter. Why are we not talking about these blessings more plainly in church?! I just sat thru a primary class of 4 year olds yesterday where the entire lesson was about how "the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong." The indoctrination starts so young. Just think if we were to teach Christ's pure doctrine without the false traditions of men sprinkled in...maybe we'd be living in Zion right now.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Juliet » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:37 pm

h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0
I remember someone calling Dr. Laura a while back and they were heart broken that their children were leaving their religion. I don't remember what it was. But Dr. Laura said that the reason people leave their religion is because it is not helping them spiritual on a deep enough level, that they are asking for more questions, deeper questions, that the current religion is not answering. I sure can relate with that. I am so grateful for our church being the mother of my faith, but I do yearn for the deeper answers and understandings of things. How I wish I could be fed, usually I feel like I go home from church still starving to hear truth, the truth that satisfies, enlights, makes sense, comforts, and heals. It seems like lately church is just propoganda for how good the church is. How hungry I am for something more!!!

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:47 pm

seekingtruth wrote:
h_p wrote:
My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.
You've just summed up my feelings on the matter. Why are we not talking about these blessings more plainly in church?! I just sat thru a primary class of 4 year olds yesterday where the entire lesson was about how "the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong." The indoctrination starts so young. Just think if we were to teach Christ's pure doctrine without the false traditions of men sprinkled in...maybe we'd be living in Zion right now.
I'm sure that isn't what the lesson said, but the teacher may have tried to simplify it for little children. As a life long member of the church, I know we aren't told the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong. I also know that in his capacity of Prophet, such as when he speaks in General Conference, he is speaking the Lord's will for us and I should listen carefully--for that is his purpose.

Why is there such animosity towards the church's teaching to follow the spiritual counsel of a living prophet? This is a BIG part of the belief system of TCofJCofLDS--that we have living prophets and they actually have a purpose-- so what's the point for having them if it isn't to listen to them and learn from their counsel? There seems to be a deep seated anger toward the Church's doctrine on living prophets. I do sometimes wonder why those who think this doctrine so harmful, don't go join a church that doesn't have a living prophet--there are tons. If they want to still keep the book of Mormon, there are even a few sects that believe it is scripture, but they don't have a prophet, other than dead ones.

Having a living prophet is supposed to be a blessing and gift from God, but if it's viewed as some kind of cult that demands that you never question the prophet, period, then why bother with it. If that was really the way I saw my faith, I'd leave--I have no interest being in a church that teaches that kind of mindless devotion--and thankfully, I know it doesn't teach that. I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.

And you know what? Those of you who want your calling and election--you need to listen to the Prophet, because he does 'know the way' and if you'd humble yourselves, stop being so contrary and critical and try to listen to his counsel with a soft heart and follow it, you'd actually become better human beings and better members of the LDS church, and that's how you work toward making your calling and election sure.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby seekingtruth » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:59 pm

AI2.0 wrote: I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.
I agree with this. It is our own responsibility to gain a witness of the prophet's words. Unfortunately, the attitude among many of the members of the church is "follow the prophet, no matter what." And that attitude seems to be ingrained in an early age as per my example above. I wish more members would do as you suggest!

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:02 pm

'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:34 pm

seekingtruth wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.
I agree with this. It is our own responsibility to gain a witness of the prophet's words. Unfortunately, the attitude among many of the members of the church is "follow the prophet, no matter what." And that attitude seems to be ingrained in an early age as per my example above. I wish more members would do as you suggest!

Some members might give this impression, and maybe some think that, but I believe most LDS don't, especially since if they did actually follow--no matter what, then we'd all be much more righteous as members, don't you think? Church leaders counsel is always trying to help us become better people; more patient, more loving, more kind, more respectful, more faithful, more virtuous--more like Jesus Christ. It's not like they are counseling us to be selfish, mean, inconsiderate or angry and vengeful.

We are admonished by the examples of Nephi and Moroni to pray for our own witness of the things we are taught--but I think sometimes, it may be that only the things we struggle with--that we lack a witness of--these are things that actually need to be prayed over in this manner. I know that for myself, when I listen to General Conference, throughout the talks, the spirit witnesses the truth of what is being said, very strongly--as it is being said. And so, I don't feel I need to pray for a witness when I've already received it. What I need to do is make a note of it and my impression for myself and what I need to do to change. I know it is right--and if I have that witness, then the next step is to act upon it by trying to follow that counsel.

Now, could we do a better job of teaching this? Yes, probably. There's always room for improvement when it comes to teaching these things.
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Obrien » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:50 pm

AI2.0 wrote:'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.
I guess one-liners are all I can mentally manage. I still need my other brain cell to control respiration and cardiovascular functions as I'm typing...

Actually, I have just become more and more convinced over the years that "the church" is not the only way back to the celestial kingdom. Clean living, charity, sacrifice, loving your neighbor, following the Spirit etc are all part of the Christ centered life. But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.
Peace be unto you...

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby AI2.0 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:04 pm

Juliet wrote:
h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0
I remember someone calling Dr. Laura a while back and they were heart broken that their children were leaving their religion. I don't remember what it was. But Dr. Laura said that the reason people leave their religion is because it is not helping them spiritual on a deep enough level, that they are asking for more questions, deeper questions, that the current religion is not answering. I sure can relate with that. I am so grateful for our church being the mother of my faith, but I do yearn for the deeper answers and understandings of things. How I wish I could be fed, usually I feel like I go home from church still starving to hear truth, the truth that satisfies, enlights, makes sense, comforts, and heals. It seems like lately church is just propoganda for how good the church is. How hungry I am for something more!!!
I'm paraphrasing this and I don't remember who it was, but someone (maybe it was Elder McConkie) talked about this. We come to church hoping for a spiritual feast and instead we get the equivalent of a couple of carrots and brussel sprouts tossed at us--so of course, we are left spiritually wanting. It's such a let down when this happens, but sometimes it is just the nature of humans. Not everyone is on the same spiritual plane--some are lower than us, some are higher--but we are still expected to love and serve and not be critical all the time and concerned with what we are getting out of it. Not all teachers and speakers put much effort into the lessons or talks--sometimes their knowledge and understanding of the Gospel is simply limited and so they don't teach us much--but I think even in those times, the spirit can help teach us, if we are open to it.


The church IS good. It is a vehicle for helping you and me to be better, if we'll take advantage of it. But, we have to do our part and be a participant, not just an observer. Wards and branches are where we learn to be saints and often this takes patience and charity. But, when church is like that, it's a good time to work on developing these important attributes of Christ. It shouldn't always be about what we can get out of it, but what we can do to share our love and light with others.
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Plato — 'One of the penalties of refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.'

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Stahura
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Postby Stahura » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:12 pm

Mark wrote: I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election..
^^
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