The Law by Frederic Bastiat

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Original_Intent
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The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by Original_Intent »

I cannot recommend highly enough The Law by Frederic Bastiat. I looked thru all the book reviews and didn't see it mentioned. I am a new member to the forums, btw. Hello everyone! I look forward to a great journey together I love not jsut what I have seen of these forums but the entire Latter Day Conservative website!

Anyway, two REALLY great things about The Law. One is it is easily readable and comprehensible in just a few hours. And the second is that it is avaialbe for FREE online reading at :

http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/The_Law.pdf

wow it looks like you can even download a recording, although I would highly recommend READING it so you can pause and ponder certain sections as needed. But here is the mp3 for those who want to listen.

http://freeaudio.org/fbastiat/thelaw.html (dead link)
UPDATE: Free Audio Download

I look forward to discussion on this great great book.

ereves
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by ereves »

I feel the same way about The Law. I read it for the first time just a couple months ago and thought it was amazing. He gives such clear and concise and logical arguments against socialism. I noticed that Ezra T. Benson quotes part of it in the Fundamental Rights video in the "Video" section

"Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGwHw1NkgBk

I noticed too that a lot of what people think about socialism and free market economics comes from Bastiat, they just don't know it.

PS I'm new too and excited to discuss principles of freedom with people who are interested.

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ithink
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by ithink »

ereves wrote:I feel the same way about The Law. I read it for the first time just a couple months ago and thought it was amazing. He gives such clear and concise and logical arguments against socialism. I noticed that Ezra T. Benson quotes part of it in the Fundamental Rights video in the "Video" section

"Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGwHw1NkgBk

I noticed too that a lot of what people think about socialism and free market economics comes from Bastiat, they just don't know it.

PS I'm new too and excited to discuss principles of freedom with people who are interested.
If you liked The Law, then may I recommend Etienne de la Boetie's "The Politics of Obedience, A Discourse on Voluntary Servitude". You can google it. OK, I did it for you. http://mises.org/rothbard/boetie.pdf

Enjoy.

ereves
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by ereves »

Cool. Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it.

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MasterOfNone
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by MasterOfNone »

"The Law" is a masterpiece. I believe it is inspired. It is said that book has been responsible for converting more people away from socialism than any other book.

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mattctr
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by mattctr »

Great books! Thanks for the link. I think I'll listen to it, while I'm at work today.

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Original_Intent
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by Original_Intent »

66 month bump

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by oneClimbs »

"The Law" is almost scripture to me. It is so simple and powerful and I was so impressed that I built a website to make reading it a pleasurable experience compared to the other sad-looking sites out there and included the audio as well so you can read along.

http://legalplunder.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

deep water
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by deep water »

Two types of plunder, legal and illegal. If we were doing what god asks of us, the dark side would have never found a toehold to introduce plunder. As we stand now, plunder is all we have, and consequently what most desire. Even some of what the people look at as their most righteous institutions practice plunder to one degree or another. In the LDS church those at the top quietly siphon off tithing monies for their support. (All money that comes to the Church is the collective Churches. In my opinion. I am and will be held accountable for such.) I know I for one always thought tithing went to the poor. I thought the leadership labored as the Bishops and Stake Presidents. I was always told that they did not, do not and will not receive a wage for doing the Lords work. Which in fact they have not. They do however receive compensation in the form of a modest living allowance. Yet it is none of the patrons business what that constitutes. A system that is ripe for abuse. No check or balance. No accounting to the lay people. Many lay people are forced to relay upon public assistance after they have given tithes to the Church, as their is no support for the widows or elderly or halt until they have gotten all the Gov. benefits they can, and exhausted all family resources. Forcing the lay to accept legal plunder, and Babylons ways, as opposed to Christs Zions ways. The scriptures call them cursed, for this way of directing the gospel. I do not see them as receiving legal plunder however, I believe Frederic Bastiat would have labeled their actions as illegal plunder. In their defense, I have heard it said that their compensation is modest compared to other CEO's in comparable companys. I am not mad in the least, I just understand Zion and call a spade a spade.

Matchmaker
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by Matchmaker »

It's a question of do we trust the Lord or not? It's his church and his tithing money.

I trust that he knows exactly what is going on with his money - who's spending it on what. If he doesn't like what is going on, I'm sure he will require a reckoning in his own time. I wouldn't want to be on his bad side when the crap starts hitting the fan. In the meantime, I will just pay my own tithes and offerings like he asked me to and leave the judgement and hell fire to him.

deep water
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by deep water »

God was always specific as to his word. He did not receive Cain's offering, but accepted Able's offering. To interject that the question is "do we trust the Lord or not", and add your own beliefs to that statement as to what is the Lords, is offensive to me, and I believe offensive to the Lord. I believe the Lord has made very clear what Church is His in the scriptures. The second part of your statement I fully agree with.

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rewcox
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by rewcox »

deep water wrote:God was always specific as to his word. He did not receive Cain's offering, but accepted Able's offering. To interject that the question is "do we trust the Lord or not", and add your own beliefs to that statement as to what is the Lords, is offensive to me, and I believe offensive to the Lord. I believe the Lord has made very clear what Church is His in the scriptures. The second part of your statement I fully agree with.
DW, a few people believe the way you do. Don't be offended. Here is a good talk on that:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... m?lang=eng
Through the strengthening power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, you and I can be blessed to avoid and triumph over offense.

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gnolaum
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by gnolaum »

deep water wrote:In the LDS church those at the top quietly siphon off tithing monies for their support.
Not sure what you mean by 'quietly'. The fact that Apostles, the Prophet and his Counselors receive a modest stipend is certainly not secret information. If by quietly you mean the amounts are not published each year then I would agree with the use of that term.
deep water wrote:I know I for one always thought tithing went to the poor. I thought the leadership labored as the Bishops and Stake Presidents. I was always told that they did not, do not and will not receive a wage for doing the Lords work. Which in fact they have not. They do however receive compensation in the form of a modest living allowance. Yet it is none of the patrons business what that constitutes. A system that is ripe for abuse. No check or balance. No accounting to the lay people. Many lay people are forced to relay upon public assistance after they have given tithes to the Church, as their is no support for the widows or elderly or halt until they have gotten all the Gov. benefits they can, and exhausted all family resources. Forcing the lay to accept legal plunder, and Babylons ways, as opposed to Christs Zions ways. The scriptures call them cursed, for this way of directing the gospel. I do not see them as receiving legal plunder however, I believe Frederic Bastiat would have labeled their actions as illegal plunder. In their defense, I have heard it said that their compensation is modest compared to other CEO's in comparable companys. I am not mad in the least, I just understand Zion and call a spade a spade.
In general, fast offerings go to the poor and those that need assistance beyond their own means. Tithing helps to build Zion, including spreading the Gospel, building church facilities, etc. However, I certainly would not presume to council the Lord or the brethren on what should or should not be spent or in what category.

Are you sure that you understand Zion? I'm not positive that I fully understand it. It is my understanding that to be a part of Zion we must give all that we have to our Christ appointed leaders. Then, in turn, we receive back according to our wants and needs. Do you give all that you have? I certainly do not. Do the brethren? I think they are much closer to giving everything than are we. They certainly give the majority of their time, laboring in Christ's vineyard on behalf of the kingdom and Father's mission statement (to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man).

Personally, I don't begrudge them a stipend to live. And if I were called to a position like that and no longer able to earn a wage at my chosen profession, I would welcome the assistance from the Lord's storehouse for the sake of my family if nothing else.

In my opinion, we (lay) are not forced to accept anything. We are not required to take government assistance at any level. Being a bishop's counselor, it is clear to me that we (as a church) assist the needy often, when they ask. I am also of the strong conviction that if we do all that we are supposed with regard to the kingdom and the covenants we make in the temple, the telestial things are taken care of.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matthew 6:33

Are we doing that? Personally, I am not, at least not at the level I should. However, I can testify that the closer I get the less I have to worry about temporal things. I would think it magic but I know better.

Lastly, I agree with Bastiat. It is an inspired book and a must read for all LDS, IMO.

deep water
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by deep water »

Gnolaum ask; Are you sure that you understand Zion?
First, Thank You for such a tempered response. I, for years tried to understand the concept Zion. I would go around and around in the scriptures and Joseph Smiths time and could not understand the mechanics of Zion. I would search until I became frustrated and leave it for a couple of months then return and go through the same motions, just to become frustrated again. One Sunday after I had returned to studying Zion, the Lord opened a vision of Zion to me. Zion is simply doing the first and second commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all thy might mind and straingth, and thy neighbor as thy self. Zion is the automatic outcome of living the first and second commandments. Joseph Smith failed because his was not to bring in Zion. Zion is not a system originated and administered by man. It is Gods system and will only work if it contains a cleansed people first. Not as it has been tried by JS or the FLDS. Taking an uncleansed people and inviting them to join together, and that seed, produce a Zion people. Look to the BOM to see the people cleansed and enjoy Zion for a time. Then as the seed of those Zion inhabitants grow and are not cleansed, even though the Church is still in existence, Zion begins to fail, then fails.
The people of Zion, are the Anointed of the Lord. The people of Zion, are of the Church of the firstborn. The people of Zion, are Sons and daughters. There is only one similitude of Zion. There are many portrayals of the earthly Churches.
Gnolaum said;, I can testify that the closer I get the less I have to worry about temporal things. I would think it magic but I know better.
Answer; True, but it is God that blesses you for living his commandments. The Church is a non factor in blessings, as I see it. If the church brings you to Zion wonderful, however if the Church is your religion, watch out below.

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gnolaum
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by gnolaum »

deep water wrote:Gnolaum ask; Are you sure that you understand Zion?
First, Thank You for such a tempered response. I, for years tried to understand the concept Zion. I would go around and around in the scriptures and Joseph Smiths time and could not understand the mechanics of Zion. I would search until I became frustrated and leave it for a couple of months then return and go through the same motions, just to become frustrated again. One Sunday after I had returned to studying Zion, the Lord opened a vision of Zion to me. Zion is simply doing the first and second commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all thy might mind and straingth, and thy neighbor as thy self. Zion is the automatic outcome of living the first and second commandments. Joseph Smith failed because his was not to bring in Zion. Zion is not a system originated and administered by man. It is Gods system and will only work if it contains a cleansed people first. Not as it has been tried by JS or the FLDS. Taking an uncleansed people and inviting them to join together, and that seed, produce a Zion people. Look to the BOM to see the people cleansed and enjoy Zion for a time. Then as the seed of those Zion inhabitants grow and are not cleansed, even though the Church is still in existence, Zion begins to fail, then fails.
The people of Zion, are the Anointed of the Lord. The people of Zion, are of the Church of the firstborn. The people of Zion, are Sons and daughters. There is only one similitude of Zion. There are many portrayals of the earthly Churches.
I agree with all of these things. Too often I think we (LDS) tend to think of Zion as a blessed way of living, but without the duties and responsibilities that come along with it. Indeed, our hearts must be Zion before we can ever practice it successfully. It is our nature to look without instead of within. For instance brother Thomas Marsh and the cream incident. Anytime we worry about what others receive instead of what we can give we are in danger, and not a Zion people, IMO.

I hope, one day, we as a Church can be of one heart and one mind, and seek always to give and to serve. At that point we will forget about the welfare aspect of Zion and get to work helping and serving our fellows. We will rejoice in what others receive, even if it means they do less work than us or none at all. We will rejoice because we are able to help provide for those who need.

Too often we can get carried away with the smallest detail of rules and the what-ifs. My personal nature is to reduce concepts and ideas down to their core, factoring out all of the minutia. It tends to help my mind understand things better when I do that. So for me...

When we are able to willingly give everything, expecting nothing in return, and without complaining we will have arrived. At that point we will by definition be doing the first and second greatest commandments. We won't care that a leader or any neighbor receives more than we. We will be happy to help sustain them.

IMO, that is Zion. :)

deep water
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by deep water »

Thank you for your posts. So often, the word just ends up in a fight here on LDSFF.

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ajax
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by ajax »

bump

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creator
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by creator »

I recently re-listened to "The Law". I forgot how amazing it is. It's definitely a must-read/listen for everyone.

If you don't think America is already a socialist country, read/listen to "The Law" and then get back to me about that.

In a lot of ways, Ezra Taft Benson's The Proper Role of Government seems to be a summary of The Law.

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ajax
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by ajax »

This and Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt should be part of every young persons education.

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by oneClimbs »

Brother B. wrote: September 11th, 2019, 1:26 pm I recently re-listened to "The Law". I forgot how amazing it is. It's definitely a must-read/listen for everyone.

If you don't think America is already a socialist country, read/listen to "The Law" and then get back to me about that.

In a lot of ways, Ezra Taft Benson's The Proper Role of Government seems to be a summary of The Law.
I agree that it's really great to listen to. He utterly eviscerates the ideas of socialism and communism. ETB definitely draws from Bastiat's ideas in The Proper Role of Government.

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The Airbender
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Re: The Law by Frederic Bastiat

Post by The Airbender »

One of the best books ever.

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