My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
- pjbrownie
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3070
- Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah
My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
I just finished reading the book by Skousen.
I find it very astonishing in the first couple of chapters, and then it settles into a discussion about how to create a Zion society. Skousen has developed his own timeline--and it's quite a bit different in a few functional ways than many of us on here would draw. Here are some of my observations:
1. Skousen see's America being cleansed by a "scourge". There is no elaboration on the scourge other than the discussion of Charles Evan's vision of the "purple dot" on the back of the hand. There isn't any discussion of war or invasion by an outside force upon America, although he doesn't say it WON'T happen. It seems that Skousen is convinced that it's a plague more than anything that cleanses America and prepares it for Zion. I think he misses the grand archetypes outlined in Isaiah and the Book of Mormon of a great power like unto Assyria that humbles Israel, or he deliberately misses it, I'm uncertain.
2. The Lost Tribes come only AFTER the Lord comes to the Mount of Olives and the Jews. I think they may come from Zion to Jerusalem at this time, but it seems pretty clear in the Book of Revelation that they are gathered with the 144,000 missionaries right after the end of the sixth seal but prior to the calamities of the seventh seal--at least to me. Skousen doesn't seem to fit the Revelation timeline into his timeline. Seems as if he is using the BOM and D&C exclusively.
3. He declares that the great sins of the times will be filthiness, lewdness, homosexuality, abortion, in essence, social conservative ills. While these are great ills, seems as he misses the boat that the BOM discusses--pride, riches, excesses, and corruption because of money--both within the church as without. Again, I don't know if this is deliberate because then he'd have to go into the FED and the banking problems--which he does touch on--but doesn't get into how it relates to the grand problem of WHY the missionaries will be pulled from the countries--which I think relates more to the oligarchies of the rich that will be set up to rule the earth that will be against Christianity.
4. He doesn't clearly delineate how the timelines in America and Jerusalem will fall in line. He seems to think they will be somewhat congruent, whereas many of my studies would indicate that one comes before the other (with a half hour of silence between both). It seems all of this depends on how one interprets the half hour of silence (or the multiple instances of half hours?).
In total, loved the book. There were some bombshells but he only touches lightly upon them. Makes me wonder of the next three books (that are promised) will elaborate more.
I find it very astonishing in the first couple of chapters, and then it settles into a discussion about how to create a Zion society. Skousen has developed his own timeline--and it's quite a bit different in a few functional ways than many of us on here would draw. Here are some of my observations:
1. Skousen see's America being cleansed by a "scourge". There is no elaboration on the scourge other than the discussion of Charles Evan's vision of the "purple dot" on the back of the hand. There isn't any discussion of war or invasion by an outside force upon America, although he doesn't say it WON'T happen. It seems that Skousen is convinced that it's a plague more than anything that cleanses America and prepares it for Zion. I think he misses the grand archetypes outlined in Isaiah and the Book of Mormon of a great power like unto Assyria that humbles Israel, or he deliberately misses it, I'm uncertain.
2. The Lost Tribes come only AFTER the Lord comes to the Mount of Olives and the Jews. I think they may come from Zion to Jerusalem at this time, but it seems pretty clear in the Book of Revelation that they are gathered with the 144,000 missionaries right after the end of the sixth seal but prior to the calamities of the seventh seal--at least to me. Skousen doesn't seem to fit the Revelation timeline into his timeline. Seems as if he is using the BOM and D&C exclusively.
3. He declares that the great sins of the times will be filthiness, lewdness, homosexuality, abortion, in essence, social conservative ills. While these are great ills, seems as he misses the boat that the BOM discusses--pride, riches, excesses, and corruption because of money--both within the church as without. Again, I don't know if this is deliberate because then he'd have to go into the FED and the banking problems--which he does touch on--but doesn't get into how it relates to the grand problem of WHY the missionaries will be pulled from the countries--which I think relates more to the oligarchies of the rich that will be set up to rule the earth that will be against Christianity.
4. He doesn't clearly delineate how the timelines in America and Jerusalem will fall in line. He seems to think they will be somewhat congruent, whereas many of my studies would indicate that one comes before the other (with a half hour of silence between both). It seems all of this depends on how one interprets the half hour of silence (or the multiple instances of half hours?).
In total, loved the book. There were some bombshells but he only touches lightly upon them. Makes me wonder of the next three books (that are promised) will elaborate more.
- Dagnystar
- Hi, I'm new.
- Posts: 5
- Location: UT
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
I especially like your comment in #3 contrasting the sins discussed by Skousen with those from BoM. It reminds me of this Nibley quote: "As Paul also reminds us, it was when the people of Sodom and Gomorrah denied passing strangers and even the birds of heaven their share of the fruit on the trees that Abraham cursed them in the name of his God; according to the Midrash, their sexual aberrations were second in wickedness to such meanness of spirit."
Thanks for the post.
Thanks for the post.
- pjbrownie
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3070
- Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
It seems to me that sexual aberrations are a result of selfishness and pride. The first sin that people usually commit is the failure to pay tithes and offerings. This usually happens prior to any immorality. Our desire for worldly goods, being comfortable at all times, putting a burden upon our brethren in other countries who are poor, getting rich quick, living beyond our means or needs, and going into great debt are things Skousen discusses, but without the context of the sins that cause the cleansing of America. The immorality is an effect of all of these things.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
From Page 11-12: "The prophets not only predicted that there would be a thorough cleansing of America, but they described how it would occurr. The Lord's cleansing will include the destabilizing impact of eathquakes, tornadoes, famine, riots, and civil strife. But the primary destruction will come from a massive, cataclysmic plague. The Lord refers to it as an "overflowing" or "desolating scourge"." Dr. Skousen references D&C 45: 28-31; D&C 84: 58; and D&C 97: 21-23.
This is definitely not "feel good" stuff, and I don't discuss anything about the "cleansing" with but a very few people. The credibility of Brother Skousen on this issue and others he has written and spoken on varies with different people. So I guess it helps to know that in 1965 it was W. Cleon Skousen to whom President McKay ultimately turned to ask that he establish some organization to educate people - LDSs and non-LDSs - about the the U.S. Constitution and the efforts to destroy it. The Freeman Institute, now the National Center for Constitutional Studies, still provides educational programs on the Constitution today.
This is definitely not "feel good" stuff, and I don't discuss anything about the "cleansing" with but a very few people. The credibility of Brother Skousen on this issue and others he has written and spoken on varies with different people. So I guess it helps to know that in 1965 it was W. Cleon Skousen to whom President McKay ultimately turned to ask that he establish some organization to educate people - LDSs and non-LDSs - about the the U.S. Constitution and the efforts to destroy it. The Freeman Institute, now the National Center for Constitutional Studies, still provides educational programs on the Constitution today.
- John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
I've heard this discussion before and Skousen mentions specifically again in this book about the big "if" - if the gentiles repent then they can avoid the cleansing. What is everyone's thoughts on this? I know some people who still believe that a mass "repentance" is still possible. I tend to think that the "if" is for individuals only, but that the gentiles in total are not repenting and thus the consequences will be coming.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Good question, John. It appears to me that a % of Americans will be spared from the "cleansing" and survive to work together with those whom the Lord will bring into America after the cleansing. I think the "remnant", those Americans who will be spared, will include people able to participate in the restoring of the 28 principles of liberty to government. I haven't a clue about the Ten Tribes, but I wonder how the good, righteous people from overseas will adjust to living the 28 principles of liberty. Some I've known will be OK with it. For others it may be a cultural shock.
I don't think we will be able to restore constitutional principles to government in America until after the "cleansing". I do feel we need to convert as many people as we can to the principles of the Constitution of the Founding Fathers for their own good as well as for the good of the new nation as prophecied.
I don't think we will be able to restore constitutional principles to government in America until after the "cleansing". I do feel we need to convert as many people as we can to the principles of the Constitution of the Founding Fathers for their own good as well as for the good of the new nation as prophecied.
- Mahonri
- Master
- Posts: 3949
- Location: Where you want to be when crap hits the fan, but I'm not telling.
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
it is an if, and there will be a cleansing. Seems paradoxical, but those that do repent will not be waiting for the cleans, they will be building Zion before the cleans. They will be acting and not be acted upon of their own free will, not being commanded in all things.
"It is a duty that our families demand of us; it is a duty that the honest in this nation demand of us, and that God demands of us; and we will try and carry it out, God being our helper. And if other people trample upon the Constitution and pull it to pieces, we will gather together the pieces and rally around the old flag, or what is left of it, and proclaim liberty to the world, as Joseph Smith said we would." -President John Taylor, JD 23:239
"It is a duty that our families demand of us; it is a duty that the honest in this nation demand of us, and that God demands of us; and we will try and carry it out, God being our helper. And if other people trample upon the Constitution and pull it to pieces, we will gather together the pieces and rally around the old flag, or what is left of it, and proclaim liberty to the world, as Joseph Smith said we would." -President John Taylor, JD 23:239
- John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Thanks for the comments. The reason I keep asking the question is that I have a friend that believes a statement he attributes to President McKay, where supposedly (I don't have a reference) President McKay said "he has been preaching repentance his whole life and that his life would be a waste if the gentiles didn't repent."
I don't see any contradiction in this statement and the need for a cleansing because I believe many people have repented (and many more will continue to do so) so no Prophet's life (or missionary's life) would ever be a waste, it's just that some people will not repent (and that number seems to be getting larger); so eventually a cleansing/separation becomes necessary once again.
I don't see any contradiction in this statement and the need for a cleansing because I believe many people have repented (and many more will continue to do so) so no Prophet's life (or missionary's life) would ever be a waste, it's just that some people will not repent (and that number seems to be getting larger); so eventually a cleansing/separation becomes necessary once again.
- LukeAir2008
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2985
- Location: Highland
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Cleon's belief that the cleansing will come about by a scourge is possibly because of an alleged conversation, mentioned previously on this forum, between Cleon Skousen and Gordon B Hinckley, in which Pres. Hinckley told Bro. Skousen that the prophesied attack on America by the Lamanites (3 Nephi 20) would not take place because the Gentiles will have repented after a horrific plague strikes the nation.
Cleon spoke about this in his last recorded conversation in 2006 when he spoke of John Taylor's vision and how the cleansing will begin in the temple and then spread out across the church and then the whole nation. He said the plague was the one described in D&C 45.
Cleon spoke about this in his last recorded conversation in 2006 when he spoke of John Taylor's vision and how the cleansing will begin in the temple and then spread out across the church and then the whole nation. He said the plague was the one described in D&C 45.
- LukeAir2008
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2985
- Location: Highland
- Mahonri
- Master
- Posts: 3949
- Location: Where you want to be when crap hits the fan, but I'm not telling.
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
it began a while ago and continues to this day. Because of our lack of belief, study, and refusing to unlearn what we have learned we do not see what is right in front of our faces. We pick and choose which prophecies, which promises, which consequences we want to believe to fit our world view and ignore the rest.
- clarkkent14
- LBFOJ
- Posts: 1973
- Location: Southern Utah
- Contact:
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
I think Nephi gives us some clues too... Study "wrath of God" in the BOM and you will see that it was poured out upon the Lamanites when the gentiles arrived, and it will be poured out upon the Great and Abominable Church as well. Look at what happened to the Native Americans... The Lords wrath was poured out upon them and they were devastated. Smallpox was a "massive, cataclysmic plague."
Smallpox epidemic ravages Native Americans on the northwest coast of North America in the 1770s
Think about Cortes too...
The Wrath of God also includes war...
Smallpox epidemic ravages Native Americans on the northwest coast of North America in the 1770s
Think about Cortes too...
The Wrath of God also includes war...
- LukeAir2008
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2985
- Location: Highland
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Cleon never said there wouldn't be wars and rumors of wars but, of course, whether he did or not is irrelevant because there are and have been many wars -but whether it was the Civil War, the First or Second World Wars, the Vietnam or Korean, or the Pseudo wars in the Middle East, they don't seem to bring men and women to repentance - quite the opposite in fact.
The desolating scourge (plague) mentioned in D&C 45 seems to be associated with a point where people in America stop accepting the gospel. Maybe its also indicitive of a time when the church stands at the brink of apostasy and where men and women are ashamed of and reject the teachings of the founding Prophets of the restoration with many foolish members claiming that former Prophets taught lies and falsehoods. They turn their hearts from the true gospel because of the 'precepts of men'.
'And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.
(D&C 45:28-32)
The desolating scourge (plague) mentioned in D&C 45 seems to be associated with a point where people in America stop accepting the gospel. Maybe its also indicitive of a time when the church stands at the brink of apostasy and where men and women are ashamed of and reject the teachings of the founding Prophets of the restoration with many foolish members claiming that former Prophets taught lies and falsehoods. They turn their hearts from the true gospel because of the 'precepts of men'.
'And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.
(D&C 45:28-32)
- 7cylon7
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1137
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
what where the bombshells? you said he did not elaborate on?
- Jason
- Master of Puppets
- Posts: 18296
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
get a copy....my wife picked one up for me for $8. Still have yet to read it though....7cylon7 wrote:what where the bombshells? you said he did not elaborate on?
-
- captain of 100
- Posts: 264
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
If you order directly from the son"s website you get a great little speach by CLeon that is included. Highly recomend it!
- Book of Ruth
- captain of 100
- Posts: 264
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Are there really 3 more books forthcoming? I liked that he told his kids when they should have the book published, and listed out the signs as to when the time was right. Are the others being pubilished currently?
-
- captain of 100
- Posts: 157
- Location: Moses Lake, WA
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
I Dr. Kimber will be coming to town in a couple of weeks, so I will ask him then. He will be here teaching 17th-19th.
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1296
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
For those new to the website, this book is worth the read. I really enjoyed it.
http://www.amazon.com/Cleansing-America ... 193554621X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Cleansing-America ... 193554621X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Jason
- Master of Puppets
- Posts: 18296
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
The Plague!!! Best news for the righteous I have ever heard!Squally wrote:For those new to the website, this book is worth the read. I really enjoyed it.
http://www.amazon.com/Cleansing-America ... 193554621X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1296
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Yes, it will be quite a cleansing agent.Jason wrote:The Plague!!! Best news for the righteous I have ever heard!Squally wrote:For those new to the website, this book is worth the read. I really enjoyed it.
http://www.amazon.com/Cleansing-America ... 193554621X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Book of Ruth
- captain of 100
- Posts: 264
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Brought this book back out last night. Very telling..... I don't think its a coincedence that the law of marriage, fullness of gospel has been violated and here on American soil arrives the plague.
My mind says its just 3 people, but the scriptures promise an overflowing scourge. I don't think its a good idea to be unrepentant or complacent right now. Just saying.....
My mind says its just 3 people, but the scriptures promise an overflowing scourge. I don't think its a good idea to be unrepentant or complacent right now. Just saying.....
- mhewett
- captain of 100
- Posts: 675
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
are you sure this is not talking about ldsfreedomforum? at least some of itLukeAir2008 wrote:
....... where men and women are ashamed of and reject the teachings of the founding Prophets of the restoration with many foolish members claiming that former Prophets taught lies and falsehoods. They turn their hearts from the true gospel because of the 'precepts of men'. :p
- wildernessdaughter
- captain of 50
- Posts: 95
- Location: Wyoming, USA
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
Haven't read the book, but I am curious, does anyone know what Skousen's take is on a call-out?
- rewcox
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5873
Re: My Review of "The Cleansing of America" by Skousen
There is a gathering to Zion, the only safe place. Some will be called to build New Jerusalem.wildernessdaughter wrote:Haven't read the book, but I am curious, does anyone know what Skousen's take is on a call-out?