Need your opinions (nicely please!)

[SmallFarm]

A third-party Presidential vote this year is foolish and irresponsible.
Start with the most popular, and yet sadly most foolish and Biblically absurd argument: "lesser of two evils."

It doesn't matter who your candidate is! He is at best a redeemed and finite sinner. He is limited intellectually, spiritually, morally, and dynamically. He will not always know the right thing to do nor the right way to do it. Even when he does know, he will not always do it. Even when he tries, he will not always succeed. So if you're going to think this through like a Christian, you must make your decision on some other basis. You must never make this argument.

I don't know if there has ever been a more stark nor consequential choice in my lifetime, even more so than 2008. One candidate, Mitt Romney, is a pro-life convert — which we like and want to encourage, right? — and he picked an even more ardently and winsomely pro-life running-mate. The other, Barack Obama, never met an unborn child he wouldn't just as soon see dead, and that even in the most gruesome way imaginable. Obama thinks spreading abortion is the most important thing he can do. As a Christian, I agree with the pro-life position, and I abominate Obama's position. If I do not actively help the one viable pro-life ticket, I help the other pro-abortion ticket. It is just as simple as that. I've read hundreds of words from third-partyers. While I share many of their goals, I really think it's all about them, and not the issues that they are failing to support. It's about making themselves feel better about themselves, in the name of "conscience." Me? I'll feel better if I keep that monstrous, pro-infanticide position out of the White House. That suits my conscience just fine. The "message" I want to send is that the abortion issue is critical in a Presidential election. I'll support a man who is less than my ideal, because he's basically on the right side of the life question. Otherwise, if I vote for a non-player the only "message" I send is "Don't worry about me. I'm irrelevant. I won't help the pro-lifer, and I won't hinder the pro-deather. Ignore me."

A Blog by Dan Phillip

I'm confused by your logic. So if you were going to vote for Obama, then instead voted third party, would my vote then equal a vote for Rome-ny? :-\

[ajax]

A third-party Presidential vote this year is foolish and irresponsible.

I've been hearing this my whole life. A third party vote is interesting and all, but not this year, way to important to blow it this year. It's the same song everytime.

[freedomforall]

He is running for president, not prophet.

We care commanded to pray about all things, especially a descision as important as this....

Agreed. I've been praying, often, that the Obama clan will soon start packing.

[jdawg1012]

I don't have the authority or inclination to make your decision for you, but, I since I have been in the same predicament, I am going to tell you my feeling on the matter.

I am NOT a Republican (far more conservative, as in "Conserving the Constitution," than the Republican party), and thus was never able to vote in a primary. I have always been an Independent, but as yet, I have never voted for anyone other than a Republican for Presidency. (I almost never vote for either party in other races such as senate or district, but it happens).

I am a big fan of Ron Paul. I have been quite studious of politics for the last 5 years, and pretty involved for several years before that (I did all I could for years to relieve Harry Reid in Nevada, my home state). I also liked Herman Cain, initially, in the primary, though he fizzled out.

During the primary season, I watched all of the debate, even the strange ones like the Gingrich/Huntsman, Gingrich/Cain "Lincoln Douglas" type debates. All of them, to my knowledge, and certainly every major one. Most I watched multiple times.

You will probably not meet many more people that want to defend personal and national freedom, and the Constitution more than I do (there are a great many who stand with me in that regard). As such, this election was a real dilemma for me. 2008 was a real dilemma for me also, but despite my best efforts, I did not come up with a name a person to vote for. In the end, I voted for McCain, to vote against Obama. I swore that I would never, ever, do that again.

So here, 2012 came along, and I didn't really care for Romney (we only agree on about 60% of the issues, whereas Ron Paul and I are more than 95%, with mainly the exception of free trade ideas). If I were a Republican, I'd have voted in the Primary for Ron Paul. However, I quickly saw that he was going to lose the nomination, even before the end of the primary season, after the rigging in Iowa.

Around a year ago or so, I began praying about who to vote for. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I got the distinct impression to vote for Romney. Keep in mind, I never "liked" Romney though the entire primary season, nevertheless, I felt he was "God's choice" so to speak. I have struggled with that all the way up until the first Romney/Obama debate. I'll explain.

When Ron Paul did not acquire the nomination, and his son was threatened if he were to run as a third party candidate, I was unsure what to do. In the back of my mind, I still have an affinity for Ron Paul, and the principles of Liberty. But, I clearly got an answer to support Romney, whom I (to this day), do not agree with more than about half of the time. I don't think he's perfect, I don't think he NOW would run the country the best, but I still feel that he is the candidate that the Lord would have me vote for. I don't think he's disastrous, but I don't agree with him on a number of principles. However, when I first watched the first Romney/Obama debate, I saw something different. Romney was sincere. Even more so in his closing remarks in the second debate. I had the genuine feeling that he wants what is best for this country, even if he's not necessarily the "best" person for the job NOW.

After the debate, I have tried continued to struggle with Romney vs. Paul, and I have repeatedly remembered President Monson's phrase "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies."

I think that God can make Romney into a great leader. The natural man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart. Remember, that was first said about David. David later went on to adulterate and murder. David was imperfect. Yet, under David, Israel prospered arguably more than any other time in her history to that point, maybe even after (I won't debate the issue). Imperfect as he was, David was the right person at the right time to lead God's people temporally, and to replace Saul.

I won't tell you who to vote for, but I will advocate a Romney Presidency. Romney may not be perfect, and I may not want to choose him with my temporal brain (although, I am much more supportive of him than I was a year ago), but I will say, I will take the tutelage of the Spirit, and a record of personal growth in a potential candidate--with faith in God's ability to mold him--more than a thousand Ron Pauls, who I really, really like, but who may not have the same guidance of the Spirit in a crisis, or the same personal growth in his advanced years.

I hope that helps you, and that is why I'm going to support and vote for Romney. I have finally decided for certain, in making my case/plea to you. Thank you for raising the question.

[etnalf]

Nicely reasoned, and nicely put, jdawg2012.

Just another comment; I honestly feel that you should vote for somebody. Many americans would dearly like to "wash their hands" of this entire political mess (and with good reason, IMO). On the other hand, this is America; it was set up as a free nation. To keep it free will take the efforts of everyone who loves freedom to protect that freedom. I feel that it is a citizen's privilege and duty to stand up and be counted on Election Day. In that way, we are contributing to that process which was designed to keep our freedoms secure.

Are the men and women that we elect to office ideal? Of course not. Tell me of one earth-bound organization where that is the case. The restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a great example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. In the church, we acknowledge that we work in a divinely established system as imperfect sons and daughters of God, and it works out. God helps us through the weak spots. We just need to keep working and have the faith that the Lord will see us through. Our country was also divinely established, and we should be treating our citizenship in the United States the same way. The Lord will intervene for His saints, if we remain true to Him. Let us then be as Captain Moroni, Helaman, and Pahoran, and stand fast in that liberty in which God has made us free. Don't be daunted by the media or the rhetoric. Study, pray... and then vote.

Besides... if you refuse to vote, then you have no reason to complain after the election is over. And where's the fun in that?

[jdawg1012]

I agree etnam, the only vote "wasted" is the one not cast.

I agree with the other posters that are tired of hearing that a vote for third party is a vote for whomever they don't like. It's not. If someone wasn't going to vote for candidate A or candidate B anyway, than a vote for candidate C (or D, or whatever), doesn't change that. It's simply a propaganda tool of groupthink, it's always an US vs. THEM mentality. Evil capitalizes upon those divisions to make us weak, leaving us in an ever smaller portion, until its us by ourselves. God strengthens us through diversity, sort of making us into an alloy while consuming the dross.

I don't know where I was going with that, except to say I'm tired of the idea that someone has to do exactly what you want (vote for candidate B), or is somehow helping the enemy (Candidate A). It's ridiculous. People are free to choose as the please in almost every matter, and any abrogation of that right is an act of Satan.

(Referring to socialism in the United States), Marion G. Romney said: "...the free agency of Americans has been greatly abridged. Some argue that we have voluntarily surrendered this power to government. Be this as it may, the fact remains that the loss of freedom with the consent of the enslaved, or even at their request, is nonetheless slavery." ("Is Socialism the United Order?")

Giving up ones freedom to choose, is equitable to slavery, albeit it may be a temporal or spiritual slavery (which is really arguably the same to the Lord, anyway). I daresay that idly sitting on ones hands it not in harmony with God's laws, even in the political theater.

[ajax]

if you refuse to vote, then you have no reason to complain after the election is over

Untrue

[Elizabeth]

:-BD

A third-party Presidential vote this year is foolish and irresponsible.
Start with the most popular, and yet sadly most foolish and Biblically absurd argument: "lesser of two evils."

It doesn't matter who your candidate is! He is at best a redeemed and finite sinner. He is limited intellectually, spiritually, morally, and dynamically. He will not always know the right thing to do nor the right way to do it. Even when he does know, he will not always do it. Even when he tries, he will not always succeed. So if you're going to think this through like a Christian, you must make your decision on some other basis. You must never make this argument.

I don't know if there has ever been a more stark nor consequential choice in my lifetime, even more so than 2008. One candidate, Mitt Romney, is a pro-life convert — which we like and want to encourage, right? — and he picked an even more ardently and winsomely pro-life running-mate. The other, Barack Obama, never met an unborn child he wouldn't just as soon see dead, and that even in the most gruesome way imaginable. Obama thinks spreading abortion is the most important thing he can do. As a Christian, I agree with the pro-life position, and I abominate Obama's position. If I do not actively help the one viable pro-life ticket, I help the other pro-abortion ticket. It is just as simple as that. I've read hundreds of words from third-partyers. While I share many of their goals, I really think it's all about them, and not the issues that they are failing to support. It's about making themselves feel better about themselves, in the name of "conscience." Me? I'll feel better if I keep that monstrous, pro-infanticide position out of the White House. That suits my conscience just fine. The "message" I want to send is that the abortion issue is critical in a Presidential election. I'll support a man who is less than my ideal, because he's basically on the right side of the life question. Otherwise, if I vote for a non-player the only "message" I send is "Don't worry about me. I'm irrelevant. I won't help the pro-lifer, and I won't hinder the pro-deather. Ignore me."

A Blog by Dan Phillip

[Andrew52]

A third-party Presidential vote this year is foolish and irresponsible.
Start with the most popular, and yet sadly most foolish and Biblically absurd argument: "lesser of two evils."

It doesn't matter who your candidate is! He is at best a redeemed and finite sinner. He is limited intellectually, spiritually, morally, and dynamically. He will not always know the right thing to do nor the right way to do it. Even when he does know, he will not always do it. Even when he tries, he will not always succeed. So if you're going to think this through like a Christian, you must make your decision on some other basis. You must never make this argument.

I don't know if there has ever been a more stark nor consequential choice in my lifetime, even more so than 2008. One candidate, Mitt Romney, is a pro-life convert — which we like and want to encourage, right? — and he picked an even more ardently and winsomely pro-life running-mate. The other, Barack Obama, never met an unborn child he wouldn't just as soon see dead, and that even in the most gruesome way imaginable. Obama thinks spreading abortion is the most important thing he can do. As a Christian, I agree with the pro-life position, and I abominate Obama's position. If I do not actively help the one viable pro-life ticket, I help the other pro-abortion ticket. It is just as simple as that. I've read hundreds of words from third-partyers. While I share many of their goals, I really think it's all about them, and not the issues that they are failing to support. It's about making themselves feel better about themselves, in the name of "conscience." Me? I'll feel better if I keep that monstrous, pro-infanticide position out of the White House. That suits my conscience just fine. The "message" I want to send is that the abortion issue is critical in a Presidential election. I'll support a man who is less than my ideal, because he's basically on the right side of the life question. Otherwise, if I vote for a non-player the only "message" I send is "Don't worry about me. I'm irrelevant. I won't help the pro-lifer, and I won't hinder the pro-deather. Ignore me."

A Blog by Dan Phillip

I'm confused by your logic. So if you were going to vote for Obama, then instead voted third party, would my vote then equal a vote for Rome-ny? :-\

You are confused my MY logic?? Please re-read what you just said.. @-)

[freedomforall]

A vote performed the way God wants us to vote IS NOT A WASTED VOTE. Remember honest, wise and good?

Which candidate possesses the highest degree of honesty?
Which candidate possesses the highest degree of wisdom?
Which candidate possesses the highest degree of goodness?
And which one of these can we omit to justify not following this command?

And just how can one justify not paying attention to the last part of this verse?

Doctrine and Covenants 98:10
Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

If neither one possesses these qualities then a third party is right. A none vote is also wasted. And i agree that those who do not vote have no right to complain.

Just like President Benson said that those who will not defend and uphold the Constitution do not have the right to call themselves a US citizen.

[SmallFarm]

You are confused my MY logic?? Please re-read what you just said

Okay let me try and put it in words you an understand:
Suppose for a second that I was some liberal, commmie, baby-killer who had voted for Obama for his first term but instead voted for the green party candidate because I didn't feel the my Supreme Leader Obama hadn't stood up for Mother Gaia enough. By voting third party, would I be letting Romney win because I wasn't lending my support to Obama?

[Andrew52]

You are confused my MY logic?? Please re-read what you just said

Okay let me try and put it in words you an understand:
Suppose for a second that I was some liberal, commmie, baby-killer who had voted for Obama for his first term but instead voted for the green party candidate because I didn't feel the my Supreme Leader Obama hadn't stood up for Mother Gaia enough. By voting third party, would I be letting Romney win because I wasn't lending my support to Obama?

Quite the opposite!

[SmallFarm]

You are confused my MY logic?? Please re-read what you just said

Okay let me try and put it in words you an understand:
Suppose for a second that I was some liberal, commmie, baby-killer who had voted for Obama for his first term but instead voted for the green party candidate because I didn't feel the my Supreme Leader Obama hadn't stood up for Mother Gaia enough. By voting third party, would I be letting Romney win because I wasn't lending my support to Obama?

Quite the opposite!

So any third party vote is a vote for Obama? ) Great confidence you have in your candidate. =))

[Andrew52]

SmallFarm, I don't think you understand.
Let me remind you of what happened in 1992 when Ross Perot entered the race causing a split in the vote allowing Bill Clinton to win.
Writing in a 3rd party could do the same thing. We could be defeated in our task to remove Obama from office by suffering another Ross Perot incident.
You and I both know, that no 3rd party person will win this election.

There is no such thing as a perfect political party, or a president who governs in accordance with one's every ethical judgment. But some actions are so ruinous to human rights, so destructive of the Constitution, and so contrary to basic morals that they are disqualifying.

I am voting for Mitt Romney. I do have the confidence that he is my best choice. The alternative is not an option.

[ajax]

Poor Andrew... thinks there is a difference between (R)s and (D)s. ) =))

We could be defeated in our task to remove Obama from office...[enough collectivist drivel, my task as a voter is individual and personal, not to rah rah with the team]

But some actions are so ruinous to human rights, so destructive of the Constitution, and so contrary to basic morals that they are disqualifying.

I am voting for Mitt Romney. [I can't beleive those two sentences were written back to back. Holy disconnect batman!]

[freedomforall]

no 3rd party person will win this election.

It's not so much who we vote for as it is HOW we vote. Unless Mitt Romney upholds and defends the Constitution in all aspects...he is not the man. In my previous post I asked some serious questions based on scripture. If you think Romney meets all those requirements then by all means vote for him. Some of us don't think so based on his flip-flopping over so many issues...issues that clearly go against LDS teachings. Is this honesty? It it wise? Is it good for him to do so? One would think that anyone grounded in the gospel wouldn't vacillate on beliefs so strongly taught.

[marc]

From the D&C, our God and King spoke:

Section 98

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

16 Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;

More:

http://warlikepeople.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe Mitt Romney is a good man. But he is beholden to his own masters. If I KNEW without a doubt that Mitt upholds the above, then I would vote for him regardless of party affiliation. The Lord caused our Constitution to be created for us to serve Him, not so that we can all have our various lifestyles or whatever, but so we could prove ourselves worthy of exercising our free agency to build Zion with an eye single to His glory.

D&C 101: 80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Jut my two cents (inflation considered). :ymcowboy:

[SmallFarm]

SmallFarm, I don't think you understand.
Let me remind you of what happened in 1992 when Ross Perot entered the race causing a split in the vote allowing Bill Clinton to win.
Writing in a 3rd party could do the same thing. We could be defeated in our task to remove Obama from office by suffering another Ross Perot incident.
You and I both know, that no 3rd party person will win this election.

There is no such thing as a perfect political party, or a president who governs in accordance with one's every ethical judgment. But some actions are so ruinous to human rights, so destructive of the Constitution, and so contrary to basic morals that they are disqualifying.

I am voting for Mitt Romney. I do have the confidence that he is my best choice. The alternative is not an option.

Yes I know, there are too many falling for cheap political ploys. I will not espouse them.

[SmallFarm]

I've had the privillage of voting for president twice. The first time, I had just turned 18 and cast my vote for Ross Perot. I knew he had little chance for winning but still, I felt confindent in my choice at the time and still don't regret voting my conscience. I didn't get a chance to vote again til the last election, was going to vote for a third party candidate, but took my parents advice and voted for John McCain.
Both times it really didn't matter who I voted for, both times the person I cast my ballot for lost. But only one of those times did I feel as if I had made the right choice.

[marc]

I've had the privillage of voting for president twice. The first time, I had just turned 18 and cast my vote for Ross Perot. I knew he had little chance for winning but still, I felt confindent in my choice at the time and still don't regret voting my conscience. I didn't get a chance to vote again til the last election, was going to vote for a third party candidate, but took my parents advice and voted for John McCain.
Both times it really didn't matter who I voted for, both times the person I cast my ballot for lost. But only one of those times did I feel as if I had made the right choice.

I also voted for Ross Perot. And I also voted for McCain. Same feelings.

[AGStacker]

You should vote for Mitt Romney.

Ignore the nay sayers. Listen to the people who know him, knew him, and had him as a bishop and stake president. He is a wonderful caring serving man. I don't know how he can serve his fellow man to the extent he has and not be a seeker of Christ.

As to his pro-life conversion, you have to look at the history. He had a misguided position. He felt that pro-choice meant just that. He did not understand that pro-choice should read pro-abortion, and pro-life should read you are responsible for your actions. He learned that as he served as governer of Mass and saw the legislation that was pro-choice.

Our constitution is a good as dead if our country is not solvent. There are no other men running on any ticket who understand how to run a profit than Mitt Romney. He stands alone here. You may contend that Ron Paul's dedication to closing the federal government, and cutting defense back to the point where we can defend our borders only will preserve our solvency, but the platform is a falacy and very naive. It may, in the short term, eliminate our debt and increase personal freedom, but the world is no longer righteous. The law must be hedged when the people fall into moral depotism. We must responsibly eliminate our debt, and reduce government in an orderly fashion. This is what Mitt Romney is proposing. He is dealing with the facts. One of them is he may have to contend with a democratic senate that will undermine him at every turn, and refuse to pass a bill that reduces government spending. This will mean he will have to work with the house to create compromise bills. I know this kills me too, but it is the responsible thing to do.

Were we to get a conservative congress out of this election as well as Mitt as president, our country would be put back on track to getting out of the dire situation we are in.

The sad part is that this election will come down to a few voters in a few counties in a few states. That is the reality. If there are enough people who are not aware of what Mr. Romney is because they refuse to see, then we get four more years of the Gadiantons. The country will not survive it.

Romney's plan to eliminate the debt is essentially the same as Obama's. They project how much they will be able to spend 5-10 years from now and their plan is very much insignificant when compared to Obama's. Under both plans there remains trillion dollar deficits.

[DRollingKearney]

I hope this latest edition of the Breaking Down the Hedge newsletter will help you with your decision, as it is entirely devoted to Mitt Romney:

https://watchmanonthetower.wordpress.co ... e-hedge-5/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kshRox]

I understand your dilemma but did wind up voting for Romney.
I couldn't stand him in the primaries but he won my vote from writing in Ron Paul based upon his message for small business.

I think he is spot on for what needs to happen in this country concerning business, we need to de-regulate, lighten the tax burden and facilitate people starting a business or expanding an existing business to provide jobs. Not big business which anymore is pretty much synonymous with foreign interests, but small business which can be local as well as regional or national employers.

As it is now, I think there is an outside chance Obama could be removed from office but I'm not sure that leaves any better than we are with him. Biden is an incompetent buffoon who would likely screw up our foreign policy worse than Obama already has.

We truly live in scary time - as it is I'm holding my breath to see what happens with the fiscal cliff.

[heartsongs]

Very late update: Sorry for the late update for any, or if any, who might care to know. Coming up with a pliable answer was indeed a little difficult. There was diligent and thoughtful prayer, reading, meditating and contemplation, and then more prayer again. An answer was at last given to me in the final minutes before voting was to begin. It was an answer that I could live with, it was an answer that made sense, it was an answer that came from heaven and by the power of the Holy Ghost. I won't be sharing who I voted for, as this is strictly a confidential thing between me, my conscious and my God, but, I can tell you that I did not vote for our current president nor would I ever! What I can say was that the Lord shared with me this thought. To not think of it so much as a "vote for a political office" so to speak or that I am confined to only 1 or 2 people that the public or media says I have to vote for. But, that this is a vote between good and evil, right vs wrong and further more very much a vote recorded in heaven---whether I chose good or evil, freedom or control and force, not who is the better businessmen, financial planner, equality maker, and so on and so on. But, who promoted The Plan of Salvation best (God's will). Latter Day Saint or not. Just because a person was not given the "official nomination" so to speak did not mean he/she had not or was not a candidate by the Lord's standards. All had been in the running--unfortunately, many fraudulently forced out of the race . On the electronic machines where we vote I did have options of writing in a candidate or writing in none of the above etc. So, whether I voted for a person already listed, wrote the candidate in, or wrote in a box none of the above as all represented evil---to my God, I cast my ballot for good vs evil, and indeed I VOTED!!! Once I was done. I felt at peace, I felt as if I had done the right thing, I felt as I had followed the promptings of the Spirit and did the Lord's will. It may not have been the "popular" thing to do---but, it was what the Lord told me to do.

Thank you for all of your replies and posts for your care and concern and helpfulness in assisting me to make a good decision. It is a great thing indeed to be among the Saints.