Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Discuss principles, issues, news and candidates related to upcoming elections and voting.
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Bircher
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

For those of you thinking that the JBS hasn't been able to accomplish anything over the past 50 years, here are just a few of the highlights;

• Exposed the attack on Christmas as early as the 1960’s and stopped national department stores from using the UN symbol and themes instead of traditional Christmas themes, trying to make it a pagan holiday
• Stopped United Airlines from putting the UN symbol on the aircrafts 1960-61
• Our first ad hoc committee (The Committee Against Summit Entanglements) prevented President Eisenhower from further legitimizing the Soviet Union.
• Stopped the movement for a “national police” in the 1960’s & ‘70’s
• Stopped the Warren Court with our “Impeach Earl Warren” campaign
• “Home-schooling” was an Alaska wilderness phenomenon until The New American promoted the idea. Today, at least 1,500,000 children are now home-schooled and 1 in 5 are in private education of some type.
• Stopped the implementation of the Declaration of Interdependence in1976
• Lead the way to stop the ERA
• Stopped attempts at a “Constitutional Convention” three times.
• Educating People on the dangers of the UN, which has led to legislation ending our membership in the organization with increasing votes every time it comes to a vote.
• Impeached Bill Clinton. First Impeachment of a President since the 1800’s. The JBS was even credited by the Washington Post, & USA Today.
• Prevented subversive, Anthony Lake, from being the head of the CIA
• Stopped the subversive Earth Charter, the "New Ten Commandments" for the US.
• Stopped the Free Trade Area of the America’s before its planned implementation date of January 2005, forcing them downscale to a North American Union
• 19 states introduce JBS authored resolutions against the North American Union
• Postponed NAU plans to at least 2013, back from the original 2010 date

There are many more national victories, and literally countless local victories that I could mention, but will leave it at this.

More lovers of freedom are needed to solidify some of these victories. If everyone "awake" had been involved, instead of constantly saying "it is too late" as far back as the 1960's, things would be far better off.

Things in America are from from lost.

This "it is prophesied and there is nothing we can do about it" stuff is so anti scriptural, I can't believe it is found in the LDS community. It stems from an evangelist in the 1800's attempting to remove Christians from being involved in fighting against increasing evil in the world. "The Rapture Cult" is a must read for all lovers of God and the free He has given us.

Elder Eyring spoke this last conference on this attitude of giving up to a false fate.
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/ ... -7,00.html

Possibilities are improving every day, we only have to have the faith to do what we have been commanded to do.

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by lundbaek »

Mark, I cannot believe that you really believe what you seem to believe, namely that we are wasting our time and whatever resources we invest in bringing to light hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them. You complain often of not being understood. I hope that misunderstanding is only due to your not adequately explaining yourself. You seem to me bent on disuading others from taking any positive action to minimize the damage that the LDGs intend to do to us and our country.

Things look bad, to be sure. And many of us focus a lot on these bad things with good reason. We want to protect ourselves against the ravages of the LDGs who create them. Fortunately, a relatively small group of American patriots have tried in recent decades to warn us of these things. The response of the general populace to their efforts reminds me of a large group of people running straight toward an abyss. They cannot see it and/or don’t want to see it. Then there are those LDSs who think the Lord is going to catch them when they fall over the edge. But the people who recognize the danger they are heading toward will have a better chance of minimizing the damage by taking evasive action or strapping on a parachute or something. That in itself is progress. It is people like those who have, for example, slowed down the progress of the NAU, and who have at least reduced the influx of illegals. I'm sure Bircher can list many more things accomplished by just the JBS.

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Bircher
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

Mark wrote:I am referring here to Babylon and its wicked system. Unless you think the Birchers are going to defeat that system of babylon I would be very interested in you telling me what you think is going to defeat that system other than the Savior and his righteous army.
That kind of hate, and purposeful mis characterization shows what kind of spirit is in your intent in this conversation.

As I said before, it is clear you have no desire to understand or to build, only to insult and tear down.

God has told us what needs to be done, and telling others it can't be done is not it.

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ChelC
The Law
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Location: Utah

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by ChelC »

Thanks for that clarification master. I want of also clarify that I am not talking in my fatalistic responses in terms of the Lords agenda and the direction of his kingdom. I am very optomistic about the mission of that Kingdom and know that wonderful things are in store for us in that regard. I am talking specifically about govt. and political items here. I just do not think that we will turn the tide of the horrible decisions made over the last several decades leading us away from constitutional principles. In that realm we will have to pay the piper and experience some pain and suffering before things return to the way they are meant to be. To me it is akin to thinking that the United Nations is going to solve all the worlds problems and lead us into peace and prosperity. No way Jose. We will reap what we have sown politically and economically.
Mark, I share many of these feelings. What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish by voting with the GOP. You say we're too far gone to bring back the govt without a great fall (which I also believe) and yet, you think you are more effective voting republican to keep dems out? This doesn't make sense to me. Your very reasons for telling people not to vote 3rd party/idealistically are the same reasons that if true make your vote just as meaningless. Do you really believe that if the PTB have as much control as you think, that your voting McCain is going to make one whit of difference? If they are as powerful as you believe then why would Palin be anything more than a prop? Why not work on the education so that when the system does fail there will be enough educated about proper government to restore it? Why not vote 3rd party and hope and pray that it catches on? If our votes are meaningless anyhow.

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Mark
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Mark »

Geez Bircher give me a break. You act like I'm insulting everything near and dear to you. Lighten up man. You and Lundbaek need to take a chill pill here. If you both think that the John Birch Society is going to overcome the beast and return the govt back to a constitutional republic where people adhere to those principles thats fine and dandy. I think you are both dreaming but thats just my opinion. Babylon has far to great a hold on this society and only after the Lords cleansing power will He bring that beast it to its knees. I could give you dozens upon dozens of scriptures and prophesies from the early Brethren that back that up but you are obviously way to touchy about your Organizations goals to see anything else that may put a damper on your zeal. I applaud anyone who wants to fight for freedom and liberty but I also know that your efforts and those of your fellow Birchers will not change the events that surely will come to pass up to the coming of the Lord. I am not insulting your organization for petes sake. I am just telling you what has been prophesied and foretold for ages. Babylon must fall. It will only happen after a cleansing and a rebirth directed by the Lord and his servants in the Priesthood. Thats just the way it is.

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Mark
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Mark »

I never said that I was voting for McCain here ChelC. He is a poliwhore on many issues. I will vote for that person best qualified to maintain some type of moral compass this nation desparately needs. I was leaning towards Barr but now you guys are trashing the heck out of him because He and Paul are at odds I guess. Whats a mother to do? :? I have said that I would take anyone over Obama and Biden because they are death much quicker to any chance for the republic to stand. They both scare the crap out of me. Either way the cleansing is just around the corner. The Assyrians are putting on their war paint. They will probable attack during an American Idol episode for optimal dumb down effect.

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Bircher
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

Mark wrote:Geez Bircher give me a break. You act like I'm insulting everything near and dear to you. Lighten up man. You and Lundbaek need to take a chill pill here. If you both think that the John Birch Society is going to overcome the beast and return the govt back to a constitutional republic where people adhere to those principles thats fine and dandy. I think you are both dreaming but thats just my opinion. Babylon has far to great a hold on this society and only after the Lords cleansing power will He bring that beast it to its knees. I could give you dozens upon dozens of scriptures and prophesies from the early Brethren that back that up but you are obviously way to touchy about your Organizations goals to see anything else that may put a damper on your zeal. I applaud anyone who wants to fight for freedom and liberty but I also know that your efforts and those of your fellow Birchers will not change the events that surely will come to pass up to the coming of the Lord. I am not insulting your organization for petes sake. I am just telling you what has been prophesied and foretold for ages. Babylon must fall. It will only happen after a cleansing and a rebirth directed by the Lord and his servants in the Priesthood. Thats just the way it is.
There you go again. perpetuating a straw man so you can look all wise and important tearing down a false notion. Good job.

Your interpretation of scripture is based on a lie perpetuated by Satan through the ages, and debunked by all modern Prophets.

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shadow
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by shadow »

Mark wrote:They will probable attack during an American Idol episode for optimal dumb down effect.
I just hope the TV stations are considerate enough to show the BREAKING NEWS during a commercial. I hate it when they cut into the shows I'm watching.

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ChelC
The Law
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Location: Utah

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by ChelC »

Touche. I can't disagree. For the record though I was distrustful of Barr before he and Paul had some kind of rift.

Here is a copy and paste of my post on Barr a couple weeks ago:
Hmmm... here are some problems I'm having with him:

He has questionable things in his past like possible affairs and his then wife having an abortion, that as far as I know he has never seemed repentant about, even though he claims to be pro life. The three marriages, and rumors surrounding him have to make you wonder a little. I definitely get the heebie geebies (how do you spell that?) from him. He voted for the patriot act and later regretted it - at least he saw the light. He wrote the defense of marriage act and then later apologized about the limits on gay marriage. I'm just not certain that he's consistent in defending proper government. I'd be okay with that if I learned he'd had some enlightening experience that clarified his views, since my own have certainly undergone a major transformation in the last few years. As far as I know that isn't the case.
I am right now waffling between Baldwin and "none"

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Bircher
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

Not an LDS based book, but an important read none the less. ANyone interested in the truth about how this false doctrine of it "being too late" came from, must read this book. Here it is to read, free of charge

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books ... index.html

I am putting together a LDS based paper debunking this whole ridiculous and selfish notion of just letting God sort things out, and will post it when I am finished.

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Mark
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Mark »

I think what we have here Bircher is a failure to communicate. I will let Bruce R do the talking here. He is much more qualified than I.

Stand Independent above All Other Creatures
Welfare Session

Stand Independent above All Other Creatures

Elder Bruce R. McConkie
Of the Council of the Twelve



Bruce R. McConkie, “Stand Independent above All Other Creatures,” Ensign, May 1979, 92
I stand before the Church this day and raise the warning voice. It is a prophetic voice, for I shall say only what the apostles and prophets have spoken concerning our day.

It is the voice of Jesus on the Mount of Olives, of John on the Isle of Patmos, of Joseph Smith during the mobbings and murders of Missouri. It is a voice calling upon the Lord’s people to prepare for the troubles and desolations which are about to be poured out upon the world without measure.

For the moment we live in a day of peace and prosperity but it shall not ever be thus. Great trials lie ahead. All of the sorrows and perils of the past are but a foretaste of what is yet to be. And we must prepare ourselves temporally and spiritually.

Our spiritual preparation consists in keeping the commandments of God, and taking the Holy Spirit for our guide, so that when this life is over we shall find rest and peace in paradise and an ultimate inheritance of glory and honor in the celestial kingdom.

Our temporal preparation consists in using the good earth in the way the Lord designed and intended so as to supply all our just wants and needs. It is his purpose to provide for his Saints for all things are his, but, he says, it must needs be done in his own way. (See D&C 104:14–18.)

There is a common axiom among us which states: A religion that cannot save a man temporally does not have power to save him spiritually. If we cannot care for our temporal needs in this world, how can we ever succeed in spiritual things in the world to come?

Thus, speaking of temporal things—of lands and houses and crops, of work and sweat and toil, of the man Adam eating his bread in the sweat of his face (see Gen. 3:19)—the Lord says: “If you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you” (D&C 78:7).

Then he commands both the Church and its members “to prepare and organize” their temporal affairs according to the law of his gospel, “that through my providence,” saith the Lord, “notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world;

“That you may come up unto the crown prepared for you, and be made rulers over many kingdoms, saith the Lord God” (D&C 78:11, 14–15).

The Church, which administers the gospel, and the Saints who have received the gospel, must be independent of all the powers of earth, as they work out their salvation—temporally and spiritually—with fear and trembling before the Lord!

Be it remembered that tribulations lie ahead. There will be wars in one nation and kingdom after another until war is poured out upon all nations and two hundred million men of war mass their armaments at Armageddon.

Peace has been taken from the earth, the angels of destruction have begun their work, and their swords shall not be sheathed until the Prince of Peace comes to destroy the wicked and usher in the great Millennium.

There will be earthquakes and floods and famines. The waves of the sea shall heave themselves beyond their bounds, the clouds shall withhold their rain, and the crops of the earth shall wither and die.

There will be plagues and pestilence and disease and death. An overflowing scourge shall cover the earth and a desolating sickness shall sweep the land. Flies shall take hold of the inhabitants of the earth, and maggots shall come in upon them. (See D&C 29:14–20.) “Their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets” (D&C 29:19).

Bands of Gadianton robbers will infest every nation, immorality and murder and crime will increase, and it will seem as though every man’s hand is against his brother.

We need not dwell more upon these things. We are commanded to search the scriptures where they are recounted with force and fervor, and they shall surely come to pass.

It is one of the sad heresies of our time that peace will be gained by weary diplomats as they prepare treaties of compromise, or that the Millennium will be ushered in because men will learn to live in peace and to keep the commandments, or that the predicted plagues and promised desolations of latter days can in some way be avoided.

We must do all we can to proclaim peace, to avoid war, to heal disease, to prepare for natural disasters—but with it all, that which is to be shall be.

Knowing what we know, and having the light and understanding that has come to us, we must—as individuals and as a Church—use our talents, strengths, energies, abilities, and means to prepare for whatever may befall us and our children.

We know that the world will go on in wickedness until the end of the world, which is the destruction of the wicked. We shall continue to live in the world, but with the Lord’s help we shall not be of the world. We shall strive to overcome carnality and worldliness of every sort and shall invite all men to flee from Babylon, join with us, and live as becometh Saints.

As the Saints of the Most High we shall strive to “stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world” (D&C 78:14). Our only hope is to free ourselves from the bondage of sin, to rid ourselves from the chains of darkness, to rise above the world, to live godly and upright lives.

Relying always on the Lord, we must become independent of the world. We must be self-reliant. Using the agency God has given us, we must work out our own economic and temporal problems.

We are here on earth to work—to work long, hard, arduous hours, to work until our backs ache and our tired muscles knot, to work all our days. This mortal probation is one in which we are to eat our bread in the sweat of our faces until we return to the dust from whence we came.

Work is the law of life; it is the ruling principle in the lives of the Saints. We cannot, while physically able, voluntarily shift the burden of our own support to others. Doles abound in evils. Industry, thrift, and self-respect are essential to salvation.

We must maintain our own health, sow our own gardens, store our own food, educate and train ourselves to handle the daily affairs of life. No one else can work out our salvation for us, either temporally or spiritually.

We are here on earth to care for the needs of our family members. Wives have claim on their husbands for their support, children upon their parents, parents upon their children, brothers upon each other, and relatives upon their kin.

It is the aim of the Church to help the Saints to care for themselves and, where need be, to make food and clothing and other necessities available, lest the Saints turn to the doles and evils of Babylon. To help care for the poor among them the Church must operate farms, grow vineyards, run dairies, manage factories, and ten thousand other things—all in such a way as to be independent of the powers of evil in the world.

We do not know when the calamities and troubles of the last days will fall upon any of us as individuals or upon bodies of the Saints. The Lord deliberately withholds from us the day and hour of his coming and of the tribulations which shall precede it—all as part of the testing and probationary experiences of mortality. He simply tells us to watch and be ready.

We can rest assured that if we have done all in our power to prepare for whatever lies ahead, he will then help us with whatever else we need.

He rained manna from heaven upon all Israel, six days each week for forty years, lest they perish for want of bread, but the manna ceased on the morrow after they ate of the parched corn of Canaan. Then they were required to supply their own food. (See Ex. 16:3–4, 35.)

During forty years in the wilderness the clothes worn by all Israel waxed not old and their shoes wore not out, but when they entered their promised land, then the Lord required them to provide their own wearing apparel. (See Deut. 29:5.)

When there was a famine in the land, at Elijah’s word, a certain barrel of meal did not waste, and a certain cruse of oil did not fail, until the Lord sent again rain on the earth. And it is worthy of note, as Jesus said, that though there were many widows in Israel, unto one only was Elijah sent. (See 1 Kgs. 17:10–16.)

We do not say that all of the Saints will be spared and saved from the coming day of desolation. But we do say there is no promise of safety and no promise of security except for those who love the Lord and who are seeking to do all that he commands.

It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be.

And so we raise the warning voice and say: Take heed; prepare; watch and be ready. There is no security in any course except the course of obedience and conformity and righteousness.

For thus saith the Lord: “The Lord’s scourge shall pass over by night and by day, and the report thereof shall vex all people; yea, it shall not be stayed until the Lord come; …

“Nevertheless, Zion shall escape if she observe to do all things whatsoever I have commanded her,” saith the Lord.

“But if she observe not to do whatsoever I have commanded her, I will visit her according to all her works, with sore affliction, with pestilence, with plague, with sword, with vengeance, with devouring fire.” (D&C 97:23, 25–26.)

O God, our Father, wilt thou grant us peace and security and safety in the days of tribulation that shall come like a whirlwind upon all the earth.

Wilt thou hedge up the evil powers, and open up the way before us, thy people, that as individuals and as a Church we may stand independent of every creature beneath the celestial world.

And wilt thou enfold us everlastingly in the arms of thy love; and finally, wilt thou save us with an everlasting salvation in thy kingdom—for all of which we pray.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.

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jbalm
The Third Comforter
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by jbalm »

I will let Bruce R do the talking here.
I was expecting an article from Bruce R. Nyquist.

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Mark
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Mark »

I was expecting an article from Bruce R. Nyquist.

Yeah crack jokes now while you can smartguy. CHH is just waiting for his tent to be delivered. I hear he just purchased a bull horn.

lundbaek
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Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by lundbaek »

Stand Up And Fight Until You Hear The Bell,
Stand Toe To Toe, Trade Blow For Blow,
Keep Punching Til You Make Your Punches Tell,
Show That Crowd What You Know,
Until You Hear That Bell, That Final Bell,
STAND UP AND FIGHT LIKE HELL!

Of course it helps to know as much as possible about your foe.

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Bircher
captain of 100
Posts: 909
Location: Utah

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

Exactly Lundbaek,

Mark,

Your is such typical behavior, that my response here is for others, not for you mind which is already made up.

As is typical of those with your arguments, you travel from one argument to the next hoping one of them will stick, refusing real and honest discussion, then resorting to name calling, mocking or other similar reactions.

I am quite aware of that talk, as well as most the other talks on the last days. It has been a huge pet topic of mine for the last 15 years, studying it from the Prophets and the scriptures regularly.

What most people, intent on getting people to not fight Satan, almost always do is leave out the parts that describe these as warnings especially pertaining to America.

Americas destiny is dependent on the action of the Priesthood. I am extremely busy with work, but will provide evidence from scripture and the Prophets if necessary, but it should be clear that all is not lost. This is the tactic of the evil one to get us not to oppose him, contrary to the commandments of both ancient and modern prophets


The Devil says, " 'Just live the gospel; there's no need to get involved in trying to save freedom and the Constitution', Of course, this is dangerous reasoning, because in reality you cannot fully live the gospel without working to save freedom and the Constitution.

We would not say to someone, “There is no need to be baptized-all you need to do is live the gospel.” That would be ridiculous because baptism is a part of the gospel.

How would you have reacted if during the war in Heaven someone said to you “Look, just do what’s right, there is no need to get involved in the fight for free agency.” Now it is obvious what the devil is trying to do, but it is sad to see many of us fall for his destructive line” -ETB

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Mark
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Mark »

Americas destiny is dependent on the action of the Priesthood. I am extremely busy with work, but will provide evidence from scripture and the Prophets if necessary, but it should be clear that all is not lost. This is the tactic of the evil one to get us not to oppose him, contrary to the commandments of both ancient and modern prophets

I never said all was lost Bircher. I never said we should not oppose Satan. Where are you coming up with this stuff? Let me try again. I said that the order of things presently must fall. It is based on principles that are not God ordained. Those principles are centered on socialism and socialist ideology. We have strayed so far from the constitutional set up that it isnt funny. Its a crime. This current construct and false ideology that masquerades as truth in politics and the economy are just BS. It is all associated with Babylon and its lies. Our culture has been dumbed down so far that Joe Q public don't even see anything wrong with the way things are conducted today in the political and economic arenas. Everything is on life support and the plug will need to be pulled so that we can begin afresh with a righteous system of truth and principle. Babylon must be destroyed and Zion can then spring up and follow God ordained princples. If you don't see this then I guess there is nothing further to discuss.

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Bircher
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Location: Utah

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

Things clearly need to be fixed, but that does not = starting over. President Benson said we need to land the plane, NOT crash it. The plane being our current stray from the principles of freedom, the Constitution and the proper role of govt.

The Prophets have warned time and again something to the effect of "the longer we wait, the deeper the blood, the heavier the chains, and the less we can carry out our God given mandate and world wide mission"

It is a warning to the Priesthood/members of the Church to get off their duff and do something to PREVENT the utter destruction predicted for those that will not submit to the will of the Lord.

You can't be a part of the remnant without out working to preserve freedom and not allow the conspiracy to get above us. So any talk about just sitting back and preparing the "remnant" is a kin to saying "there is no need to fight for freedom all you need to do is live the gospel", we know we cannot live the gospel without working to preserve freedom.

"a good deal of the responsibility lies with the priesthood of this Church as to what happens to America" ETB

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masterdmjg
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Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by masterdmjg »

Dallin H. Oaks, “Alternate Voices,” Ensign, May 1989, 27
The Lord’s prescribed methods of acquiring sacred knowledge are very different from the methods used by those who acquire learning exclusively by study. For example, a frequent technique of scholarship is debate or adversarial discussion, a method with which I have had considerable personal experience. But the Lord has instructed us in ancient and modern scriptures that we should not contend over the points of his doctrine. (See 3 Ne. 11:28–30; D&C 10:63.) Those who teach the gospel are instructed not to preach with “wrath” or “strife (D&C 60:14; see also 2 Tim. 2:23–25), but in “mildness and in meekness” (D&C 38:41), “reviling not against revilers” (D&C 19:30). Similarly, techniques devised for adversary debate or to search out differences and work out compromises are not effective in acquiring gospel knowledge. Gospel truths and testimony are received from the Holy Ghost through reverent personal study and quiet contemplation.

In the scriptures, the Lord has specified how we learn by faith. We must be humble, cultivate faith, repent of our sins, serve our fellowmen, and keep the commandments of God. (See Ether 12:27; D&C 1:28; D&C 12:8; D&C 50:28; D&C 63:23; D&C 136:32–33.) As the Book of Mormon says, “Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God.” (Alma 26:22.)

I had a lot more to say, but I think I will just take Elder Oaks' advice. I'm not going to revile. Way too much vituperation already.

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Bircher
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Location: Utah

Re: Meet Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's VP Pick

Post by Bircher »

You're right masterdmjg.

I stand by the doctrine, but I request all of your forgiveness for my tone of continuing in a discussion that appeared contentious.

I struggle to balance a need for discussion to bring clarity and unity with a need to, as CHH would put it, "eschew" the appearance of contention.

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