Secret Combinations you say?

[obi]

Greetings all

I am not a member of the LDS church. Hope that's ok. I am from a Catholic family, but we stopped attending Church when I was about 12. I was an atheist for a long time, before I became enamored with New Age spirituality, which led me to Gnostic texts, which led me here. My intuition leads me to believe that Christianity is something I want back in my life, but the literature I've consumed suggests that Catholics and Protestants alike aren't on the right path. Basically, I'm on the hunt for a church that "feels right." I suppose in Christian terminology I'm asking the Holy Spirit to guide me to the right place. I was researching Gnosticism when I read something comparing the ideas of Joseph Smith to that of the early Gnostic Christians. This piqued my interest, so I searched for more comparisons and this forum was a result.

Now, I've been an avid consumer of the alternative media for as long as I've had Internet access, which would be at around 13-14 (I'm 26). So I'm well versed in the subjects that appear in your "Secret Combinations" boards. Imagine my surprise when this geopolitical philosophy is baked into your very holy scriptures themselves! Needless to say, it caught my attention enough to make an account and an introductory post. It was also intriguing to learn that Joel Skousen seems to be an influential member of your Church.

So, you might say I'm a prospective convert, but I know that won't happen soon because of my current lifestyle that I've been trying to turn around for a year or so. Fornication, intoxication, etc. It's a slow process but I've made much progress.

If it doesn't violate any rules, I'd love to stay here a while and learn, ask questions about the faith when scripture is quoted, and contribute to the political and secret combo forums from a currently secular perspective

[David13]

Read the Book of Mormon.
And look up the videos and speeches of Ezra Taft Benson, previous (now deceased) President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
dc

[larsenb]

You might want to read: Restoring the Ancient Church - Joseph Smith and Early Christianity (expanded and revised edition, 2013), by Barry Bickmore. He gets into the patristic literature and shows how many of the early Christianity ideas and practices correspond to what were thought to be those unique to Joseph Smith. Bickmore uses translations by non-Mormon scholars, unlike Hugh Nibley, who has done a lot of the same thing but using his own knowledge of ancient Greek/Latin, etc.

[Original_Intent]

You are very welcome here and I look forward to hearing your perspective! Best of luck on the things you are struggling with.

Joel Skousen is not a particularly influential member, although I thing he has a lot of good things to say. His uncle (?) Cleon Skousen probably had more influence in the church, although he was not a general authority he has been read by a lot of members.

The Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon may be of particular interest to you regarding Secret Combinations. Of course I recommend that you read the entire Book of Mormon, but reading Ether my pique your interest to go back and read the rest

Whether your journey brings you within the church or not (of course I hope it does!) but best of luck to you in your search.

[letsjet]

Welcome aboard! There are teachings in the LDS Church that are unique to Christianity and very fascinating! One of the posts suggested that you read the Book of Mormon. That is wise counsel!

The Book of Mormon is over 500 pages long. May I suggest that you view one of the Church's videos first simply because it will give you a good perspective about the Book of Mormon in a short period of time.

The movie I have in mind is called "The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepard." Type that in at the You Tube search box. It is a little over an hour long. I think you will enjoy it! I love that movie!

Great things await you as you learn about this religion! Take care!

[JohnnyL]

Greetings all

I am not a member of the LDS church. Hope that's ok. I am from a Catholic family, but we stopped attending Church when I was about 12. I was an atheist for a long time, before I became enamored with New Age spirituality, which led me to Gnostic texts, which led me here. My intuition leads me to believe that Christianity is something I want back in my life, but the literature I've consumed suggests that Catholics and Protestants alike aren't on the right path. Basically, I'm on the hunt for a church that "feels right." I suppose in Christian terminology I'm asking the Holy Spirit to guide me to the right place. I was researching Gnosticism when I read something comparing the ideas of Joseph Smith to that of the early Gnostic Christians. This piqued my interest, so I searched for more comparisons and this forum was a result.

Now, I've been an avid consumer of the alternative media for as long as I've had Internet access, which would be at around 13-14 (I'm 26). So I'm well versed in the subjects that appear in your "Secret Combinations" boards. Imagine my surprise when this geopolitical philosophy is baked into your very holy scriptures themselves! Needless to say, it caught my attention enough to make an account and an introductory post. It was also intriguing to learn that Joel Skousen seems to be an influential member of your Church.

So, you might say I'm a prospective convert, but I know that won't happen soon because of my current lifestyle that I've been trying to turn around for a year or so. Fornication, intoxication, etc. It's a slow process but I've made much progress.

If it doesn't violate any rules, I'd love to stay here a while and learn, ask questions about the faith when scripture is quoted, and contribute to the political and secret combo forums from a currently secular perspective

Greetings back at ya! It's ok to not be a member; there are others here like that, and some worse than that, lol. Congratulations on having made much progress, and wish you best of luck with it. Hope we can answer your questions well and discuss things.

[LdsMarco]

Welcome! Good to have you.

[scottja]

Weclome to the board. I look forward to your comments and insights.

[kittycat51]

Welcome!

Yes read the Book of Mormon! If that seems daunting, start with the book of Ether, like Original Intents said. That is chalk full of Secret Combinations. There was a a story I read recently about a convert to our Church. He (Alfred R. Young) was a POW in Japan during WWII. He states that he was so desperate to read anything that his friend (a Church member lent him a Book of Mormon. From the writing of Alfred's son concerning the Book of Mormon he states:

"....it was a story about a family—and memories of family and childhood were something that had already saved Dad’s life through the long ordeal of captivity. Whether it was enduring the dreariness of meaningless labor or surviving the kicks and fists of his captors, he escaped into his memories of home, and in the Book of Mormon he found himself suddenly in a family with a bunch of rough and rowdy kids who acted just like his five brothers and two sisters.

Before the story was 10 pages old, the neighbors had tried to kill the father; the family had left home, wealth, and comfort behind to cross a wilderness; and the boys were swept up in a quest. And it was an exciting one that resulted in theft of the family fortune, assault and battery on the youngest brother, the beheading of a corrupt military commander, subterfuge (complete with costume), kidnapping a servant, and smuggling a priceless treasure out of town in the dead of night. Whether or not the book had any religious significance, it was one walloping good tale!" He later learned that more than a good walloping tale, it held truth, had answers and gave hope.

Also check out LDS.org and Mormon.org.

Best of luck and I look forward to your comments on LDSFF.

[Rand]

Greetings all

I am not a member of the LDS church. Hope that's ok. I am from a Catholic family, but we stopped attending Church when I was about 12. I was an atheist for a long time, before I became enamored with New Age spirituality, which led me to Gnostic texts, which led me here. My intuition leads me to believe that Christianity is something I want back in my life, but the literature I've consumed suggests that Catholics and Protestants alike aren't on the right path. Basically, I'm on the hunt for a church that "feels right." I suppose in Christian terminology I'm asking the Holy Spirit to guide me to the right place. I was researching Gnosticism when I read something comparing the ideas of Joseph Smith to that of the early Gnostic Christians. This piqued my interest, so I searched for more comparisons and this forum was a result.

Now, I've been an avid consumer of the alternative media for as long as I've had Internet access, which would be at around 13-14 (I'm 26). So I'm well versed in the subjects that appear in your "Secret Combinations" boards. Imagine my surprise when this geopolitical philosophy is baked into your very holy scriptures themselves! Needless to say, it caught my attention enough to make an account and an introductory post. It was also intriguing to learn that Joel Skousen seems to be an influential member of your Church.

So, you might say I'm a prospective convert, but I know that won't happen soon because of my current lifestyle that I've been trying to turn around for a year or so. Fornication, intoxication, etc. It's a slow process but I've made much progress.

If it doesn't violate any rules, I'd love to stay here a while and learn, ask questions about the faith when scripture is quoted, and contribute to the political and secret combo forums from a currently secular perspective

Welcome aboard! It is alway great to find a truth seeker! It will be fun to enjoy your journey second hand. There is so much here (in the Church) that will satisfy long held appetites and thirsts. Welcome!

[Chip]

Read Ether 8 in the Book of Mormon. That explains what we see in the world today.

Also:

Alma 10:27 and adjacent verses

Helaman 7:4-6

[obi]

Read the Book of Mormon.

Is there any recommended way to read it, or just start to finish? I know some churches prefer new converts to read the NT in a specific order, then the OT in a specific order, etc. Anything similar here?

And look up the videos and speeches of Ezra Taft Benson, previous (now deceased) President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Any specific recommendations?

You might want to read: Restoring the Ancient Church - Joseph Smith and Early Christianity (expanded and revised edition, 2013), by Barry Bickmore. He gets into the patristic literature and shows how many of the early Christianity ideas and practices correspond to what were thought to be those unique to Joseph Smith. Bickmore uses translations by non-Mormon scholars, unlike Hugh Nibley, who has done a lot of the same thing but using his own knowledge of ancient Greek/Latin, etc.

Is this in the same vein as the relationship to Gnosticism I spoke of in the OP?

The movie I have in mind is called "The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepard." Type that in at the You Tube search box. It is a little over an hour long. I think you will enjoy it! I love that movie!

Thanks, I will do this tonight

Welcome

Thanks for the warm welcomes!

[larsenb]

You might want to read: Restoring the Ancient Church - Joseph Smith and Early Christianity (expanded and revised edition, 2013), by Barry Bickmore. He gets into the patristic literature and shows how many of the early Christianity ideas and practices correspond to what were thought to be those unique to Joseph Smith. Bickmore uses translations by non-Mormon scholars, unlike Hugh Nibley, who has done a lot of the same thing but using his own knowledge of ancient Greek/Latin, etc.

Is this in the same vein as the relationship to Gnosticism I spoke of in the OP? . . . . .

Bickmore is quoting more from early 'Church Fathers', those who may have had some cross-over with the apostles, or direct experience with the very early Church, which they wrote about . . . . not gnostic 'heresies', per se.

Here are some chapter heading to give you an idea of the content, where each of the Chapter headings may have multiple subheadings:

Chapter 1: Introduction.
Chapter 2: Apostasy and Restoration. Has 5 Chapter subheadings, with each of these having up to 3-8 sub-sub-headings. One of the subheadings is: Directions of Apostasy, with one of the 3 sub-subheadings of this being: Gnostic Christianity.
Chapter 3: The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man, with 5 chapter subheadings.
Chapter 4: Salvation History and Requirements, with 4 chapter subheadings.
Chapter 5: Church Organization and Life, with 2 chapter subheadings.
Chapter 6: The Temple, with 3 chapter subheadings.
Chapter 7: Mormonism in the Early Jewish Christian Milieu, with 4 chapter subheadings.

It should be noted that he is largely quoting from translations of very early works, which outweigh the number of his own words. It should also be noted that each chapter is followed by extensive, numbered notes that refer to the foregoing chapter..

[lundbaek]

I had already been a member of the LDS Church in 1960 for a few months or less when the subject of secret combinations was brought to my attention. As I looked into it, my first thoughts were "suspicions confirmed". I was already aware of certain events which convinced me that there was a conspiracy to promote communism and its goals that extended into the U.S. government and the United Nations. Among those events were the Pearl Harbor cover-up, the betrayal of China to the Reds, the conduct of the Korean War, the support of Fidel Castro from elements within the United States, and especially the Bay of Pigs scandal, Since then the conduct of the Vietnam War, the OKC bombing, 911, the recent warfare in the Mid-East, the support from elements of the U.S. government of illegal immigration, and actions that reveal the new world order conspiracy have all added to my conviction that these have all been part of the globalist agenda.

[kittycat51]

Obi, Here is a great talk by Elder Tad Callister from our last General Conference. General Conference happens twice per year in April and October. It is a time for us to listen to our Church leaders. The talk was called "God's compelling witness: The Book of Mormon". From the link you can actually listen to it or just read it below.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

The Book of Mormon is not only the keystone of our religion, but it can also become the keystone of our testimonies so that when trials or unanswered questions confront us, it can hold our testimonies securely in place. This book is the one weight on the scales of truth that exceeds the combined weight of all the critics’ arguments. Why? Because if it is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and this is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, regardless of any historical or other arguments to the contrary. For this reason, the critics are intent on disproving the Book of Mormon, but the obstacles they face are insurmountable because this book is true.

First, the critics must explain how Joseph Smith, a 23-year-old farm boy with limited education, created a book with hundreds of unique names and places, as well as detailed stories and events. Accordingly, many critics propose that he was a creative genius who relied upon numerous books and other local resources to create the historical content of the Book of Mormon. But contrary to their assertion, there is not a solitary witness who claims to have seen Joseph with any of these alleged resources before the translation began.

Even if this argument were true, it is woefully insufficient to explain the Book of Mormon’s existence. One must also answer the question: how did Joseph read all of these alleged resources, winnow out the irrelevant, keep the intricate facts straight as to who was in what place and when, and then dictate it by perfect memory? For when Joseph Smith translated, he had no notes whatsoever. In fact, his wife Emma recalled: “He had neither manuscript nor book to read from. … If he had had anything of the kind he could not have concealed it from me.”1

So how did Joseph perform this remarkable feat of dictating a 500-plus–page book without any notes? To do so, he must not only have been a creative genius but also have had a photographic memory of prodigious proportions. But if that is true, why did his critics not call attention to this remarkable talent?

But there is more. These arguments account only for the book’s historical content. The real issues still remain: how did Joseph produce a book that radiates with the Spirit, and where did he get such profound doctrine, much of which clarifies or contradicts the Christian beliefs of his time?

For example, the Book of Mormon teaches, contrary to most Christian beliefs, that the Fall of Adam was a positive step forward. It reveals the covenants made at baptism, which are not addressed in the Bible.

In addition, one might ask: where did Joseph get the powerful insight that because of Christ’s Atonement, He can not only cleanse us but also perfect us? Where did he get the stunning sermon on faith in Alma 32? Or King Benjamin’s sermon on the Savior’s Atonement, perhaps the most remarkable sermon on this subject in all scripture? Or the allegory of the olive tree with all its complexity and doctrinal richness? When I read this allegory, I have to map it out to follow its intricacies. Are we now supposed to believe that Joseph Smith just dictated these sermons off the top of his head with no notes whatsoever?

Contrary to such a conclusion, God’s fingerprints are all over the Book of Mormon, as evidenced by its majestic doctrinal truths, particularly its masterful sermons on the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

If Joseph were not a prophet, then in order to account for these and many other remarkable doctrinal insights, the critics must make the argument that he was also a theological genius. But if that were the case, one might ask: why was Joseph the only one in the 1,800 years following Christ’s ministry to produce such a breadth of unique and clarifying doctrines? Because it was revelation, not brilliance, that was the source of this book.

But even if we suppose that Joseph were a creative and theological genius with a photographic memory—these talents alone do not make him a skilled writer. To explain the Book of Mormon’s existence, the critics must also make the claim that Joseph was a naturally gifted writer at age 23. Otherwise, how did he interweave scores of names, places, and events into a harmonious whole without inconsistencies? How did he pen detailed war strategies, compose eloquent sermons, and coin phrases that are highlighted, memorized, quoted, and placed on refrigerator doors by millions of people, phrases such as, “When ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God” (Mosiah 2:17) or “Men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25). These are messages with a heartbeat—messages that live and breathe and inspire. To suggest that Joseph Smith at age 23 possessed the skills necessary to write this monumental work in a single draft in approximately 65 working days is simply counter to the realities of life.

President Russell M. Nelson, an experienced and skilled writer, shared that he had over 40 rewrites of a recent general conference talk. Are we now to believe that Joseph Smith, on his own, dictated the entire Book of Mormon in a single draft with mainly minor grammatical changes made thereafter?

Joseph’s wife Emma confirmed the impossibility of such an undertaking: “Joseph Smith [as a young man] could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictat[e] a book like the Book of Mormon.”2

And finally, even if one accepts all of the foregoing arguments, dubious as they may be, the critics still face another looming obstacle. Joseph claimed that the Book of Mormon was written on golden plates. This claim received unrelenting criticism in his day—for “everyone” knew that ancient histories were written on papyrus or parchment, until years later, when metal plates with ancient writings were discovered. In addition, the critics claimed that the use of cement, as described in the Book of Mormon, was beyond the technical expertise of these early Americans—until cement structures were found in ancient America. How do the critics now account for these and similar unlikely discoveries? Joseph, you see, must also have been a very, very lucky guesser. Somehow, in spite of all the odds against him, against all existing scientific and academic knowledge, he guessed right when all the others were wrong.

When all is said and done, one might wonder how someone could believe that all these alleged factors and forces, as proposed by the critics, fortuitously combined in such a way that enabled Joseph to write the Book of Mormon and thus foster a satanic hoax. But how does this make sense? In direct opposition to such an assertion, this book has inspired millions to reject Satan and to live more Christlike lives.

While someone might choose to believe the critics’ line of reasoning, it is, for me, an intellectual and spiritual dead end. To believe such, I would have to accept one unproven assumption after another. In addition, I would have to disregard the testimony of every one of the 11 witnesses,3 even though each remained true to his testimony to the very end; I would have to reject the divine doctrine that fills page after page of this sacred book with its supernal truths; I would have to ignore the fact that multitudes, including myself, have come closer to God by reading this book than any other; and above all, I would have to deny the confirming whisperings of the Holy Spirit. This would be contrary to everything I know to be true.

One of my good and bright friends left the Church for a time. He recently wrote to me of his return: “Initially, I wanted the Book of Mormon to be proven to me historically, geographically, linguistically, and culturally. But when I changed my focus to what it teaches about the gospel of Jesus Christ and His saving mission, I began to gain a testimony of its truthfulness. One day while reading the Book of Mormon in my room, I paused, knelt down, and gave a heartfelt prayer and felt resoundingly that Heavenly Father whispered to my spirit that the Church and the Book of Mormon were definitely true. My three-and-a-half-year period of reinvestigating the Church led me back wholeheartedly and convincingly to its truthfulness.”

If one will take the time to humbly read and ponder the Book of Mormon, as did my friend, and give ear to the sweet fruits of the Spirit, then he or she will eventually receive the desired witness.

The Book of Mormon is one of God’s priceless gifts to us. It is both sword and shield—it sends the word of God into battle to fight for the hearts of the just and serves as an arch defender of the truth. As Saints, we have not only the privilege to defend the Book of Mormon but also the opportunity to take the offense—to preach with power its divine doctrine and bear testimony of its crowning witness of Jesus Christ.

I bear my solemn testimony that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. It is God’s compelling witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, and the absolute truth of this Church. May it become the keystone of our testimonies, so it may be said of us, as it was of the converted Lamanites, they “never did fall away” (Alma 23:6). In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[lundbaek]

Book on Mormon on secret combinations. Can you see these kind of things happening in our day?


In 2 Nephi 26 we read that in the "last days" “The Gentiles shall build up false churches and secret combinations.”

In Alma 51 we can note that certain people, referred to as "king-men", "were desirous that the law should be altered in a manner to overthrow the free government and to establish a king over the land." "Those who were in favor of kings were those of high birth, and they sought to be kings; and they were supported by those who sought power and authority over the people." In their anger with the "people of liberty...they would not take up arms to defend their country" against forces from outside their county. I became necessary for Moroni and his army to "go against those king-men" in battle and kill many of the king-men before persuading/compelling others to join in fighting for the freedom that the Lamanites were threatening to take away from them.

In Helaman 2 we read how one Gadianton became the leader of a band, the object of which was to “destroy Helaman”, and “to murder, and to rob, and to gain power”. We are also told that “this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi.”

In Helaman 3 we learn that “there was continual peace established in the land, all save it were the secret combinations which Gadianton the robber had established in the more settled parts of the land, which at that time were not known to those who were at the head of government; therefore they were not destroyed out of the land.”

In Helaman 6 we are told in some detail that “Lucifer, the author of sin, guides the Gadianton robbers in their murders and wickedness – They take over the Nephite government.” It is interesting to read that “this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites”, but “on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them....until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites,....And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government.”

In Helaman 7 we read that Nephi, the son of Helaman, found “the people {of Nephi] in a state of such awful wickedness, and those Gadianton robbers filling the judgment-seats – having usurped the power and authority of the land; laying aside the commandments of God, and not in the least aright before him; doing no justice unto the children of men.; condemning the righteous because of their righteousness; letting the guilty and the wicked go unpunished because of their money; and moreover to be held in office at the head of government to rule and do according to their wills, that they might get gain and glory of the world, and moreover, that they might more easily commit adultery, and steal, and kill, and do according to their wills”.

In Helaman 8 we read how “Corrupt judges seek to incite the people against Nephi.”, and that “those judges were angry with him because he spake plainly unto them concerning their secret works of darkness”. At the end of this chapter and into Chapter 9 we read that “By inspiration Nephi announces the murderer of the chief judge, and then by inspiration identifies the murderer, and finally “is accepted by some as a prophet."

In 3 Nephi 6 we learn of further iniquities. “A complaint came up unto the land of Zarahemla, to the governor of the land, against these judges who had condemned the prophets of the Lord unto death, not according to the law.....those judges had many friends and kindreds....and they did enter into a covenant one with another....which covenant which was given by then of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.... And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings.”

In 3 Nephi 7 we read of the murder of a chief judge and the overthrow of the Nephite government; "the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination of friends and kindred of those who murdered the prophets....and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob; and they did call him their king."

In 4 Nephi we again read “that the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton”, and “the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus.”

In Ether 8 we read Moroni's warning that “whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed;”. We are told that we should “suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain." And we are told that “The Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combinations which shall be among you....” and that "whosoever buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil,”. And Moroni also wrote to the Gentiles that “it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of you sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain