Nice to be here!

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Thethirddoctor
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Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by A Random Phrase »

Welcome to the forum, Craig.

kennyhs
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by kennyhs »

Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Welcome!

Interesting introduction, I would imagine Phoenix is beautiful this time of year, great for golfing!

I respectfully ask why, if your world view is distinctly non-LDS, would you come to an LDS forum? I immediately thought it was strange and that
you were saying things like not believing that solving societal or political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even God. That clear rational human thought is not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs, and appearing holier than thou?

A rational thinking person would immediately assume you were talking about the LDS Church, because you're view is distinctly non-LDS and you are on LDS forum There are a lot of forums that where you could express your opinions, why here? Please explain.

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SmallFarm
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by SmallFarm »

Welcome Craig. I grew up in the Valley of the Sun (all over down there but mostly East Valley). How do you like it?

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Obrien
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Post by Obrien »

Hello Craig. I lived in the Phoenix area for 20 years - yes, it is nice there this time of year. Have you spent a summer there yet? :)

As far as good old fashioned socialism goes, it's a wonderful idea. Why don't you lead the charge, and sign over all your essential things to the government and have them take care of you? Sounds rational...

I'm not sure there are any publicly avowed socialists on this forum, so I hope you stick around. It's interesting to hear another point of view.
Last edited by Obrien on March 12th, 2016, 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

Obrien: That is not what Democratic Socialism is and you know it...

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

kennyhs wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Welcome!

Interesting introduction, I would imagine Phoenix is beautiful this time of year, great for golfing!

I respectfully ask why, if your world view is distinctly non-LDS, would you come to an LDS forum? I immediately thought it was strange and that
you were saying things like not believing that solving societal or political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even God. That clear rational human thought is not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs, and appearing holier than thou?

A rational thinking person would immediately assume you were talking about the LDS Church, because you're view is distinctly non-LDS and you are on LDS forum There are a lot of forums that where you could express your opinions, why here? Please explain.

Kennyhs: To try to answer your questions...I have LDS family and friends and I live in a heavy LDS area. It is not like this is the only forum I go too. I was talking about churches in general but in this case the obvious point of reference would be the LDS Church. The LDS Church is part of my culture. I see no evidence to suggest it is anything but fallacious, however, if I wish to try and understand LDS viewpoints, I have to interact with a range of people who hold those viewpoints and the internet is an obvious and convenient way to do so.

OOOK?
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by OOOK? »

Welcome.

My favorite Doctor is the first and always will be, but Jamie, Zoe, and Pat's Doctor are my favorite TARDIS team. I keep hoping for more classic Who to be discovered.

When I was younger I had a similar thought process about essentials being provided. Now I realize the money would just pay the corrupt corporate medical facilities to continue to provide the same poor care they provide now, the same corrupt food corporations to continue mass agriculture depleting the soil and making another dust bowl inevitable ... well you get the idea.

Now I am old and jaded and realize that the only way for things to get better is on a small, local scale. People working together, sharing with, and helping each other is the true solution. I still go back and forth on some issues, as I am sure others do, but I prefer things to get done on a local level.

It will be interesting reading what you think about some of the topics on here.

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Obrien
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Post by Obrien »

Thethirddoctor wrote:Obrien: That is not what Democratic Socialism is and you know it...
Please educate me about the wonders of DS.

Sorry for the typo in my previous post - I meant to ask if you'd spent a "summer" there (they can be brutal). Auto correct got the best of me.

kennyhs
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by kennyhs »

Thethirddoctor wrote:
kennyhs wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Welcome!

Interesting introduction, I would imagine Phoenix is beautiful this time of year, great for golfing!

I respectfully ask why, if your world view is distinctly non-LDS, would you come to an LDS forum? I immediately thought it was strange and that
you were saying things like not believing that solving societal or political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even God. That clear rational human thought is not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs, and appearing holier than thou?

A rational thinking person would immediately assume you were talking about the LDS Church, because you're view is distinctly non-LDS and you are on LDS forum There are a lot of forums that where you could express your opinions, why here? Please explain.

Kennyhs: To try to answer your questions...I have LDS family and friends and I live in a heavy LDS area. It is not like this is the only forum I go too. I was talking about churches in general but in this case the obvious point of reference would be the LDS Church. The LDS Church is part of my culture. I see no evidence to suggest it is anything but fallacious, however, if I wish to try and understand LDS viewpoints, I have to interact with a range of people who hold those viewpoints and the internet is an obvious and convenient way to do so.
I have family in Phoenix, the summers are brutal and the winters include dodging snowbirds on the roads. :) I do love the Superstiton Mountains,
and the desert in the spring.

Back to your reply, hopefully you will come to the conclusion that the LDS Church isn't " Completely fallacious", and that you are here to "try and understand LDS viewpoints" - not argue with them, demean them, and get as many LDS people as possible to leave the church - and to vote for Bernie Sanders!

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

kennyhs wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:
kennyhs wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Welcome!

Interesting introduction, I would imagine Phoenix is beautiful this time of year, great for golfing!

I respectfully ask why, if your world view is distinctly non-LDS, would you come to an LDS forum? I immediately thought it was strange and that
you were saying things like not believing that solving societal or political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even God. That clear rational human thought is not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs, and appearing holier than thou?

A rational thinking person would immediately assume you were talking about the LDS Church, because you're view is distinctly non-LDS and you are on LDS forum There are a lot of forums that where you could express your opinions, why here? Please explain.

Kennyhs: To try to answer your questions...I have LDS family and friends and I live in a heavy LDS area. It is not like this is the only forum I go too. I was talking about churches in general but in this case the obvious point of reference would be the LDS Church. The LDS Church is part of my culture. I see no evidence to suggest it is anything but fallacious, however, if I wish to try and understand LDS viewpoints, I have to interact with a range of people who hold those viewpoints and the internet is an obvious and convenient way to do so.
I have family in Phoenix, the summers are brutal and the winters include dodging snowbirds on the roads. :) I do love the Superstiton Mountains,
and the desert in the spring.

Back to your reply, hopefully you will come to the conclusion that the LDS Church isn't " Completely fallacious", and that you are here to "try and understand LDS viewpoints" - not argue with them, demean them, and get as many LDS people as possible to leave the church - and to vote for Bernie Sanders!

KennyHS: When in any of my posts have I demeaned someone. I might disagree with them but I have never demeaned anyone, never suggested anyone leave the LDS Church and never advocated voting for Bernie Sanders. So why make those assumptions?

kennyhs
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by kennyhs »

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!

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Obrien
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Post by Obrien »

kennyhs wrote:
I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!
Kennyhs - I don't think your interpretation of that ^^^ paragraph is correct. I don't see condemnation of the lds in particular. I interpret it to mean he has distress and loathing for the way people of many faiths mistreat each other in the name of God all around the world.

Btw, he's correct to some degree - the answer to societal problems does not lie with God. People must choose to love each other to permanently solve problems. That DOES move you closer to God, but loving your neighbor is a true principle even when practiced by non-believers.

Also btw, compulsion in the place of love is why democratic socialism is an untenable idea in my mind. Democracy simply means 51 percent of the people can "legally" violate the natural rights of the other 49 percent, without fear of recourse under law.
Last edited by Obrien on March 12th, 2016, 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Robin Hood »

Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Whereabouts in the UK are you from?
I'm originally from Sherwood near Nottingham (hence my avatar), but am now based in North Yorkshire.

I agree with you about nationalisation of certain services, but probably not for the same reasons. I'm not a socialist, but I am probably a social democrat. I believe in small government, and I believe in individual freedom and accountability; even if that leads to poor choices.

I believe that the only hope for society is a renewal of righteousness and commitment to God. This has to be done one person at a time.

Welcome to the board.

kennyhs
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Posts: 1537

Re: Nice to be here!

Post by kennyhs »

Obrien wrote:
kennyhs wrote:
I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!
Kennyhs - I don't think your interpretation of that ^^^ paragraph is correct. I don't see condemnation of the lds in particular. I interpret it to mean he has distress and loathing for the way people of many faiths mistreat each other in the name of God all around the world.
Btw, he's correct to done degree - the answer to societal problems does not lie with God. People must choose to love each other to permanently solve problems. That DOES move you closer to God, but loving your neighbor is a true principle even when practiced by non-believers.

Also btw, compulsion in the place of love is why democratic socialism is an untenable idea in my mind. Democracy simply means 51 percent of the people can "legally" violate the natural rights of the other 49 percent, without fear of recourse under law.
I think I've got it!

Loathe people for the way they treat each other, call them holier than thou, insinuate that belief in God is superstitious and supernatural, while being correct to done degree, and don't forget, choose to love each other permanently. The answer to societal problems does not lie with God, family, the ten commandments, etc. Would you please try to make sense Obrien!

Image

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Obrien
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Obrien »

sigh

:ymsigh:

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Different
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Different »

Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.



I am an old fashioned English socialist.



Craig.

Oh boy....

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

kennyhs wrote:
I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!
Kennyhs:

Again you are misreading what I said. I said the answer to societal and political problems lies in clear rational thought and not superstitious or supernatural beliefs. I did not say people who believe in God are incapable of rational thought. YOU are the one making the insinuation, not I. Just as you insinuated I would get people to leave the LDS Church (I mean its not like I can offer them a better deal, eternal life, etc) and vote for Bernie Sanders. Both demonstrably untrue...so why would you maintain that viewpoint?

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

Different wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.



I am an old fashioned English socialist.



Craig.

Oh boy....
Such a deep and meaningful contribution that has elevated our planes of thoughts to untold levels...

Thethirddoctor
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Posts: 60

Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

Obrien wrote:
kennyhs wrote:
I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!
Kennyhs - I don't think your interpretation of that ^^^ paragraph is correct. I don't see condemnation of the lds in particular. I interpret it to mean he has distress and loathing for the way people of many faiths mistreat each other in the name of God all around the world.
Btw, he's correct to done degree - the answer to societal problems does not lie with God. People must choose to love each other to permanently solve problems. That DOES move you closer to God, but loving your neighbor is a true principle even when practiced by non-believers.

Also btw, compulsion in the place of love is why democratic socialism is an untenable idea in my mind. Democracy simply means 51 percent of the people can "legally" violate the natural rights of the other 49 percent, without fear of recourse under law.
Obrien:

And your point there on compulsion is very well made indeed. It is indeed a major issue and a serious sticking point. One that has only ever been partially addressed and never fully reconciled.

Thank you for your interpretation of my previous statement.

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SmallFarm
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by SmallFarm »

Thethirddoctor wrote:
Different wrote: Oh boy....
Such a deep and meaningful contribution that has elevated our planes of thoughts to untold levels...
Hey he got your attention at least :p

Thethirddoctor
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Posts: 60

Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

OOOK? wrote:Welcome.

My favorite Doctor is the first and always will be, but Jamie, Zoe, and Pat's Doctor are my favorite TARDIS team. I keep hoping for more classic Who to be discovered.

When I was younger I had a similar thought process about essentials being provided. Now I realize the money would just pay the corrupt corporate medical facilities to continue to provide the same poor care they provide now, the same corrupt food corporations to continue mass agriculture depleting the soil and making another dust bowl inevitable ... well you get the idea.

Now I am old and jaded and realize that the only way for things to get better is on a small, local scale. People working together, sharing with, and helping each other is the true solution. I still go back and forth on some issues, as I am sure others do, but I prefer things to get done on a local level.

It will be interesting reading what you think about some of the topics on here.
Hi OOOK!

You cannot beat Troughton! In many ways I still think he is the finest actor to have played The Doctor, especially with Jamie and Zoe. Although it is somewhat maligned, I do love The War Games and of course The Invasion!

And I think you may be right in the end on the local level. Sadly I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

SmallFarm wrote:Welcome Craig. I grew up in the Valley of the Sun (all over down there but mostly East Valley). How do you like it?

Hi SmallFarm;

I am in the East Valley too and about to move to the edge of Mesa/Gilbert. I like the climate very much but geriatric golfers are driving me crazy with their slow play at the moment!

Craig

Thethirddoctor
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by Thethirddoctor »

Robin Hood wrote:
Thethirddoctor wrote:My name is Craig. Originally, I am from the UK but have lived in the USA for fifteen years.

I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.

I am an old fashioned English socialist. By that I mean I think the Government should nationalize essential industries crucial to the wellbeing of the population. The people should still pay for them but entities such as British Gas, British Coal, British Rail, British Steel and access to the University system should be a right for all qualified academic students without having the individual to be burdened with debt.

Conversely, I also think the private sector and free enterprise should be encouraged, especially the growth and development of small businesses who should be given preferential business rates instead of large multinational companies receiving such.

I live just outside Phoenix, AZ and enjoy playing golf and watching classic Doctor Who as well as reading and listening to BBC Radio.

Craig.
Whereabouts in the UK are you from?
I'm originally from Sherwood near Nottingham (hence my avatar), but am now based in North Yorkshire.

I agree with you about nationalisation of certain services, but probably not for the same reasons. I'm not a socialist, but I am probably a social democrat. I believe in small government, and I believe in individual freedom and accountability; even if that leads to poor choices.

I believe that the only hope for society is a renewal of righteousness and commitment to God. This has to be done one person at a time.

Welcome to the board.
Hi Robin Hood:

I am from Cambridge but was briefly based in Nottingham for a few months in the late 1990's on a work assignment.

Have not been back in many years though!

kennyhs
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Re: Nice to be here!

Post by kennyhs »

Thethirddoctor wrote:
kennyhs wrote:
I am LDS but certainly not in the conventional way. I believe in Jesus but my world view is distinctly non-LDS. Having visited over forty countries and seen and experienced much of what mankind can do to each other, I do not think the answers to societal and political problems lie in a church, its leaders or even with God. They lie in clear rational human thought not encumbered with superstitious or super natural beliefs that humans have a long history of inflicting on themselves and each other in an effort to appear holier than thou.
This statement was very demeaning, insulting and insinuating. To say that people who believe in God and His leaders don't have clear rational thought and are encumbered with superstitious and super natural beliefs, who inflict themselves to appear holier than thou? I'm no Einstein
and it was very clear to my rational thinking what you were saying. Come on!
Kennyhs:

Again you are misreading what I said. I said the answer to societal and political problems lies in clear rational thought and not superstitious or supernatural beliefs. I did not say people who believe in God are incapable of rational thought. YOU are the one making the insinuation, not I. Just as you insinuated I would get people to leave the LDS Church (I mean its not like I can offer them a better deal, eternal life, etc) and vote for Bernie Sanders. Both demonstrably untrue...so why would you maintain that viewpoint?
Oh boy....the quote is directly above you, and now you change it. That's messed up...

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