There are different classes of Jews

[mslouise]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

[nightlight]

Don't believe everything you read.

[larsenb]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

I've mentioned this before, but from my survey of the problem, Ashkenazi Jews are very much a part of the main dispersal from Israel. One line of 'negative' evidence is that Yiddish, which was the main spoken language of this population, has almost no Turkik input. Yiddish consists mainly of German, Hebrew and Aramaic components. It also arose in about the 9th century, most likely among Jews living in Germanic speaking areas of Europe (Rhine River Valley, mainly).

The conversion of the Khazars was supposed to have taken place in the 8th Century. If this happened, one would expect that the major component of Yiddish would have come from the Turkik Khazarian language.

Arthur Koesteler was probably the first to publish on this thesis in his book, The Thirteenth Tribe, back in the '60's. The idea was also pushed by Schlomo Sand of Tel Aviv Univ., in 2007. I was a real fan of Koestler, but could never quite buy into his idea. A recent study by Jewish Social Studies Professor, Shaul Stampfer, concluded there was no real evidence for the thesis, and he spent an alleged 4 years studying it ( https://forward.com/news/200825/why-ash ... m-khazars/ ).

And yes, much Jewish blood among the Spanish, and hence they promulgated it to the New World, though it was probably introduce due to conversion to avoid persecution and several episodes of forced conversion. Those converting or forced to convert are generally called: Marranos.

[mslouise]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[creator]

... That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." ...

What if the gathering of Israel today has nothing to do with the Jews.. it's the Latter-day Saints, the latter day covenant people of the Lord.

[kirtland r.m.]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

Evidence that I am seeing, looks like more and more that the book of Mormon areas were in America’s heartland in the eastern United States and possibly I’ve been to Canada above the New England states. This is because of DNA and other information. I can post on this if anyone is interested.

[larsenb]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

Evidence that I am seeing, looks like more and more that the book of Mormon areas were in America’s heartland in the eastern United States and possibly I’ve been to Canada above the New England states. This is because of DNA and other information. I can post on this if anyone is interested.

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

[larsenb]

... That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." ...

What if the gathering of Israel today has nothing to do with the Jews.. it's the Latter-day Saints, the latter day covenant people of the Lord.

The Book of Mormon states categorically that the scattered remnants of Israel would be gathered to their various lands of inheritance. This would include the Jews beging gathered back to the Land of Isreal. As I recall, there are several passages in the book to this effect.

[kirtland r.m.]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

Evidence that I am seeing, looks like more and more that the book of Mormon areas were in America’s heartland in the eastern United States and possibly I’ve been to Canada above the New England states. This is because of DNA and other information. I can post on this if anyone is interested.

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

No, I wouldn’t call it odd. The beliefs of native populations in Northern, Central, and South America who believe and even can describe the visit of the Savior are so widespread, that this information may have bled over into surrounding areas peopled by some who were not part of the Nephite or Lamanite populations in any way. There are those who have longstanding reasons for not wanting to accept Rod M. Ideas. There is continued new information about DNA studies coming out all the time, etc. etc.. And when I said Canada I think I pointed out the area just above New England. I can post on specifics on that too and have on the forum. I have other information too, Non-DNA information, and quite a lot of it, surrounding Hebrews in the heartland, and New England. Right now though this week, I am trying to concentrate on Temple, Endowment, and other related information one of our Catholic freedom f. readers has been asking about.

[larsenb]

Did everyone know that there are different ethnic Jews in Israel? I guess I've been living in a cave! The majority is the Ashkenazic Jews that are from Europe. The Mizrahis are from the Arab countries, mostly Yemen and Iraq. And the Sephardic originated in Spain.

I read that the Ashkenazis did not descend from Abraham. They were converted centuries ago. That makes me question if Israel is a long ways from being "gathered." The Mizrahis and the Sephardics are looked down upon and do not have as many opportunities to education, etc.

And then I wonder if when the Spaniards conquered Mexico, that they also introduced Jewish blood to North and South America.

Any opinions about this?

Evidence that I am seeing, looks like more and more that the book of Mormon areas were in America’s heartland in the eastern United States and possibly I’ve been to Canada above the New England states. This is because of DNA and other information. I can post on this if anyone is interested.

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

No, I wouldn’t call it odd. The beliefs of native populations in Northern, Central, and South America who believe and even can describe the visit of the Savior are so widespread, that this information may have bled over into surrounding areas peopled by some who were not part of the Nephite or Lamanite populations in any way. There are those who have longstanding reasons for not wanting to accept Rod M. Ideas. There is continued new information about DNA studies coming out all the time, etc. etc.. And when I said Canada I think I pointed out the area just above New England. I can post on specifics on that too and have on the forum. I have other information too, Non-DNA information, and quite a lot of it, surrounding Hebrews in the heartland, and New England. Right now though this week, I am trying to concentrate on Temple, Endowment, and other related information one of our Catholic freedom f. readers has been asking about.

"How very odd" . . . tongue-in-cheek.

You will have to share the new DNA data.

Bleeding of knowledge about a savior could have gone from south-to-north, as well. Works both ways. In view of the many passages in BofM stating how quite a few groups went north, it should not be surprising to find evidence for and even remnants of these groups in the North, AKA, the Heartland.

In describing areas above New England, perhaps you are referring to the MicMac Indians. Barry Fell transcribed one of their chants, one they no longer knew the meaning of, and it transliterated to Greek. In view of a writing system they had that was very similar to Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and which had been noted as early as about the 1680's, Barry concluded they descended from a Christian group of Ptolemaic Greeks, who fled to the New World due to religious persecution.

[Thinker]

The white so called “Jews” today - mostly in the US - are not genuinely Jewish because they are Ashkenazi - a group that came from eastern Europe or western Asia and never lived in Israel and most today don’t practice Judaism.

There seems to be some white so-called “Jews” in the country (Israel - that was stolen from the Palestinians in 1948) - who’s ancestors were Ashkenazi and shipped into Israel to help occupy it. There are relatively few genuine Jews and after interbreding, most don’t look like Jews did 2,000 years ago. Some claim Jews were always white because of white “Jews” today but that’s like saying, Native Americans must have been white because of all of the white Americans.

There’s been so much interbreeding that ethnically - they who use the name “Jew” are not. But they like the benefits. To be considered Jewish, one must have a consistent maternal line who are ethnically and religiously Jewish. And statistically, so called “Ashkenazi Jews” don’t subscribe to Judaism. So if they’re not ethnically nor religiously Jewish - they’re just a club of people who can get away with murder under anti-semetic laws.

• “Revelation 2:9
  “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
  
  Revelation 3:9
  “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

Abortion, homosexual lies as well as some wars, have been from people who want the world to have such Zionist ideas...

• “World Zionist leaders initiated a program to change America and its religious orientation. One of the tools used to accomplish this goal was an obscure and malleable Civil War veteran named Cyrus I. Scofield. A much larger tool was a venerable, world respected European book publisher — The Oxford University Press.
  
  The scheme was to alter the Christian view of Zionism by creating and promoting a pro-Zionist subculture within Christianity. Scofield's role was to re-write the King James Version of the Bible by inserting Zionist-friendly notes in the margins, between verses and chapters, and on the bottoms of the pages. The Oxford University Press used Scofield, a pastor by then, as the Editor, probably because it needed such as man for a front. The revised bible was called the Scofield Reference Bible, and with limitless advertising and promotion, it became a best-selling "bible" in America and has remained so for 90 years.
  
  The Scofield Reference Bible was not to be just another translation, subverting minor passages a little at a time. No, Scofield produced a revolutionary book that radically changed the context of the King James Version. It was designed to create a subculture around a new worship icon, the modern State of Israel, a state that did not yet exist, but which was already on the drawing boards of the committed, well-funded authors of World Zionism.”http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/carlson01.htm

[kirtland r.m.]

Evidence that I am seeing, looks like more and more that the book of Mormon areas were in America’s heartland in the eastern United States and possibly I’ve been to Canada above the New England states. This is because of DNA and other information. I can post on this if anyone is interested.

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

No, I wouldn’t call it odd. The beliefs of native populations in Northern, Central, and South America who believe and even can describe the visit of the Savior are so widespread, that this information may have bled over into surrounding areas peopled by some who were not part of the Nephite or Lamanite populations in any way. There are those who have longstanding reasons for not wanting to accept Rod M. Ideas. There is continued new information about DNA studies coming out all the time, etc. etc.. And when I said Canada I think I pointed out the area just above New England. I can post on specifics on that too and have on the forum. I have other information too, Non-DNA information, and quite a lot of it, surrounding Hebrews in the heartland, and New England. Right now though this week, I am trying to concentrate on Temple, Endowment, and other related information one of our Catholic freedom f. readers has been asking about.

"How very odd" . . . tongue-in-cheek.

You will have to share the new DNA data.

Bleeding of knowledge about a savior could have gone from south-to-north, as well. Works both ways. In view of the many passages in BofM stating how quite a few groups went north, it should not be surprising to find evidence for and even remnants of these groups in the North, AKA, the Heartland.

In describing areas above New England, perhaps you are referring to the MicMac Indians. Barry Fell transcribed one of their chants, one they no longer knew the meaning of, and it transliterated to Greek. In view of a writing system they had that was very similar to Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and which had been noted as early as about the 1680's, Barry concluded they descended from a Christian group of Ptolemaic Greeks, who fled to the New World due to religious persecution.

Hi larsenb, hope you are having a great day! You have brought up an interesting tribe, the Micmac's. Here is part of an old post of mine on the f. forum.
This is about the Micmac Tribe who it seems, had a link to the same language which the Book of Mormon was written in(reformed Egyptian). In studying this tribe, I came across a phrase which may be familiar to those who have studied the gospel in detail. That phrase is an ancient sacred phrase which they used. The phrase is "pay lay ale". the sentence I believe, is derived from the Hebrew phrase "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God". Oh yes, it is a phrase which goes way, way, back. More evidence of the restoration.

Here are some interesting links to Book of Mormon D.N.A. evidence, heartland information, ect. from another post I have put on the f. forum.
It now seems the Nephites and Lamanites were in North America. Some good evidence places some of them not far from the Hill Cumorah, makes good sense to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mADM3RYKl5Y
HEBREWS were in Ancient America - SOLID Evidence(and they arrive when the Book of Mormon say's they did).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIR0SFgxS7g
Bottom line. Anyone who has been leaving the church because of so called lack of D.N.A. evidence(not true) or any other reason is trading their spiritual future for even less that Esau received anciently.
Other interesting links, here is more...very importantly for the Book of Mormon’s historicity, as with the rare discovery of the Nihm altars in southern Arabia linked to Ishmael’s death and burial [7], with the even rarer discovery of this small, inscribed seal, “it is quite possible that an archaeological artifact of a Book of Mormon personality has been identified. It appears that the seal of Mulek has been found [8]."http://www.ldsliving.com/Has-a-Book-of- ... nd/s/87137
And still more.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/
And here is a favorite of mine. Top 10 Book of Mormon Evidenceshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ATGGwbll3c

“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159

[markharr]

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

What evidence are you referring too? DNA evidence is maybe 5% of the evidence heartland model.

There have been defensive sites and mounds found. Some with Jewish symbolism.





https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloc ... h/efw.html

jewish artifacts

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloc ... calog.html

Metal swords, breast plates and head plates





http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... y.html?m=1

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html

Smelting sites

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2011/3101/


And most compelling of all, the prophet Joseph Smith stated it on more than one occasion

The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest men and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionaly the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity,

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... une-1834/3

The visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the spirit of the Almighty I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us, was a white Lamanite . . . He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Omandagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah, or Eastern sea, to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelph. . . . He was killed in battle, by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.5

http://www.ldsliving.com/When-Joseph-Sm ... ph/s/86058




So please. Let's see your evidence that refutes all of this. Lets see your evidence for the Mesoamerican model. Tell me again how this is a nephite sword even though the BOM very clearly states that they worked in metal, and had metal swords, brestprates, and headplates.



Tell me how that sword made of wood and obsidian rusts as described in Mosiah 8:11. Show me the smelting sites and metal artifacts found in MesoAmerica. .

The DNA evidence isn't even the most compelling evidence that supports the heartland model.

[Thinker]

The white so called “Jews” today - mostly in the US - are not genuinely Jewish because they are Ashkenazi - a group that came from eastern Europe or western Asia and never lived in Israel and most today don’t practice Judaism.

There seems to be some white so-called “Jews” in the country (Israel - that was stolen from the Palestinians in 1948) - who’s ancestors were Ashkenazi and shipped into Israel to help occupy it. There are relatively few genuine Jews and after interbreding, most don’t look like Jews did 2,000 years ago. Some claim Jews were always white because of white “Jews” today but that’s like saying, Native Americans must have been white because of all of the white Americans.

There’s been so much interbreeding that ethnically - they who use the name “Jew” are not. But they like the benefits. To be considered Jewish, one must have a consistent maternal line who are ethnically and religiously Jewish. And statistically, so called “Ashkenazi Jews” don’t subscribe to Judaism. So if they’re not ethnically nor religiously Jewish - they’re just a club of people who can get away with murder under anti-semetic laws.

• “Revelation 2:9
  “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
  
  Revelation 3:9
  “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

Abortion, homosexual lies as well as some wars, have been from people who want the world to have such Zionist ideas...

• “World Zionist leaders initiated a program to change America and its religious orientation. One of the tools used to accomplish this goal was an obscure and malleable Civil War veteran named Cyrus I. Scofield. A much larger tool was a venerable, world respected European book publisher — The Oxford University Press.
  
  The scheme was to alter the Christian view of Zionism by creating and promoting a pro-Zionist subculture within Christianity. Scofield's role was to re-write the King James Version of the Bible by inserting Zionist-friendly notes in the margins, between verses and chapters, and on the bottoms of the pages. The Oxford University Press used Scofield, a pastor by then, as the Editor, probably because it needed such as man for a front. The revised bible was called the Scofield Reference Bible, and with limitless advertising and promotion, it became a best-selling "bible" in America and has remained so for 90 years.
  
  The Scofield Reference Bible was not to be just another translation, subverting minor passages a little at a time. No, Scofield produced a revolutionary book that radically changed the context of the King James Version. It was designed to create a subculture around a new worship icon, the modern State of Israel, a state that did not yet exist, but which was already on the drawing boards of the committed, well-funded authors of World Zionism.”http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/carlson01.htm

I used to fall for the lie that Israel was always occupied by Jews and that THEY were always the victims. The Holocaust did happen and they were victims in that, but they have more often been perpetrators and before 1948 had less often occupied Israel - so that land, Palestine most often wasn’t theirs. Orthodox Jews don’t support the stealing and occupation of that land in 1948 and currently - because they believe that God must give it to them but peacefully otherwise they will be punished.



That ^ and other free speech is restricted in some areas because of “anti-semetic” laws saying any bad talk of the state of Israel (stealing, war etc) is “anti-semetic.”

In 1948, the land now called Israel was stolen from Palestinians with the help of the UK and US.

The 1948 Palestinian exodus, also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, al-Nakbah, literally "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs — about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population — fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war.[2] Between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were sacked during the war, while urban Palestine was almost entirely extinguished.[3] The term nakba also refers to the period of war itself and events affecting Palestinians from December 1947 to January 1949.

The precise number of refugees, many of whom settled in refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute[4] but around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[5][6] About 250,000–300,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

[Thinker]

Ashkanazi “Jews” who are the majority, did not come from the Middle East but from Europe and now most don’t subscribe to Judaism - so why are they called Jews?

It’s been claimed that all Jews have some tie to the Middle East...

“But historical documents tell a slightly different tale. Based on accounts such as those of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, by the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70, as many as 6 million Jews were living in the Roman Empire, but outside Israel, mainly in Italy and Southern Europe. In contrast, only about 500,000 lived in Judea, said Ostrer, who was not involved in the new study.

"The major Jewish communities were outside Judea," Ostrer told LiveScience.

Maternal DNA

Richards and his colleagues analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which is contained in the cytoplasm of the egg and passed down only from the mother, from more than 3,500 people throughout the Near East, the Caucusus and Europe, including Ashkenazi Jews.

The team found that four founders were responsible for 40 percent of Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA, and that all of these founders originated in Europe. The majority of the remaining people could be traced to other European lineages.

All told, more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to Europe, with only a few lineages originating in the Near East.” https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashke ... genes.html

[larsenb]

How very odd. Evidence that I'm seeing, looks more and more like the Book of Mormon areas were NOT in America's heartland in the eastern United States, and certainly not in Canada. And at least one top LDS geneticist (Ugo Perego) says Meldrum is misrepresenting the DNA haplogroup data. There is also a book written by a group of them showing how the data is being misused and how it can be misused.

What evidence are you referring too? DNA evidence is maybe 5% of the evidence heartland model.

There have been defensive sites and mounds found. Some with Jewish symbolism.





https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloc ... h/efw.html

jewish artifacts

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloc ... calog.html

Metal swords, breast plates and head plates





http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... y.html?m=1

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html

Smelting sites

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2011/3101/


And most compelling of all, the prophet Joseph Smith stated it on more than one occasion

The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest men and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionaly the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity,

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... une-1834/3

The visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the spirit of the Almighty I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us, was a white Lamanite . . . He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Omandagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah, or Eastern sea, to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelph. . . . He was killed in battle, by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.5

http://www.ldsliving.com/When-Joseph-Sm ... ph/s/86058




So please. Let's see your evidence that refutes all of this. Lets see your evidence for the Mesoamerican model. Tell me again how this is a nephite sword even though the BOM very clearly states that they worked in metal, and had metal swords, brestprates, and headplates.



Tell me how that sword made of wood and obsidian rusts as described in Mosiah 8:11. Show me the smelting sites and metal artifacts found in MesoAmerica. .

The DNA evidence isn't even the most compelling evidence that supports the heartland model.

OK, I’ll take your issues one-by-one. . . . though this topic rather hijacks this thread.

1. Regarding the survey of the earthworks along what was once the East Fork of the Little Miami River in Ohio: It’s conjecture that it depicts a 9-branch Hanukkah menorah. This just isn’t known for certain. But more importantly, such a menorah is used to commemorate an event that happened in 165 BC. Earlier temple menorahs had only 7 branches. The Nephites, et al., would know nothing about this event because it happened well after their ancestors left Jerusalem.

2. The Wyrick inscription stones. The first, called The Decalogue stone, used a “ very peculiar ‘post-Exilic’ [came into use AFTER the Babylon captivity] script”. Again, this places it outside of the Nephite/Lamanite/Mulekite time frame. The second stone, called “the Keystone”, used letters that “are nearly standard Hebrew” . . . . “developed at the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls (circa 200-100 B.C.)”. They also have examples of letter ‘dilation’, which only appeared after the 200-100 BC period. Conclusion: the Keystone Hebrew letters again, fall well outside the Nephite/Lamanite/Mulekite time frame

And regarding the stone, Wyrick himself latter suspected he may have been hoaxed. In fact, a local dentist, John H. Nicol, had actually created two stones w/Hebrew letters and introduced them into a mound dig as a hoax. He had also been present when Wyrick found his Decalogue stone . . . which seems suspicious.

My take-away on this is that there could very well have been other Hebrew/Jewish migrations to the New World that had nothing to do with the Nephite/Lamanite groups. Some Cherokees claim this. The Bat Creek, Tennessee Hebrew inscriptions translated by Cyrus Gordon, is another example of this. Others have been found in Brazil, etc., et.

3. Evidence of silver, copper and iron/steel working. Evidence for the use of copper tools/jewelry, gold jewelry, etc., is found throughout the Americas. No surprise there. Evidence of iron tools/swords, etc., is fascinating. This shouldn’t surprise LDS. Remember the many excursions north by various Nephite/Lamanite groups.

Also, many other groups could have come here. Barry Fell documents Libyan inscriptions in parts of New England verified by Libyan epigraphers. There is evidence of expeditions by late Romans coming as far as Arizona to visit lead mines, probably entering via the Rio Grande River a good portion of the way. The Heavener Rune stone found along the Arkansas River in Oklahoma, the various Ogam scripts found in many parts of the continental US, are other indications of possible ‘European’ incursions. The Vikings were adept at smelting bog iron, for instance. Then you have possible visits from certain Cisterian Monk/Templars, who used a late Runic script and probably got their information about the New World via earlier Scandinavian Vikings and their manuscripts. They had a 14th-15th Century enclave on Gotland Island in the Baltic. Starting point for this investigation was the Kensington Rune stone. Don’t believe this? Read Scott Wolter’s: The Hooked X, 2009.

Then you have the Mulekites. How do you think they got to the ‘New World’? Did Mulek build a ship under guidance of the Lord and sail it by following the direction of Liahona number 2? I think not. But you could consider Phoenicians, a group of which sailed all the way around the Horn of Africa at the insistence of Pharaoh Necho. What else could they and did they do?? Just because it wasn’t recorded in anything that’s come down to us doesn’t mean they didn’t do it. Fell makes a good case for Phoenicians coming to exploit the Great Lakes copper deposits, plus ship-building lumber (after the 1st Punic War when they lost the timber in Spain), and fur, etc.

4. Your smelting site is a modern era site. And surprising that you should ask me about such sites in Meso America, because I have been directly involved with such a site located in northern Guatemala. We are still waiting for RC dates to be done on samples from it. The smelter was created either by early Spanish colonists, or is PreColumbian. The local Indian tribe knew nothing about it. And you would be astonished about how much of another metal these present-day Indians track in . . . .

5. The Zelph story. Your example contains words that were crossed out in Willard Richard’s version of this story he was preparing to enter into the Manuscript History of the Church in 1842. The strong assumption is that the crossed-out words resulted in Richard’s sitting down w/Joseph to go over what he was preparing for entry into the history (Richards was not a member of Zion’s Camp).

Here is the version where the already crossed-out words are omitted:

“We visited several of the mounds . . . . of this country, . . . . “ “He [Zelph] was a warrior and chieftain under the prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Eastern Sea to the Rock Mountains. He was killed in battle .. . . during a great struggle with the Lamanites.”

B.H. Roberts, the Church Historian in 1904, reinstated the crossed-out version in the History of the Church. Joseph Fielding Smith, changed the Zelph entries back to include the crossed-out words when he was the Church Historian. John A. Widtsoe made a statement in an article in the Improvement Era, in 1950, that in effect, the Zelph story was “not of much value in the Book of Mormon geographical studies, since Zelph probably dated from a later time when Nephites and Lamanites had been somewhat dispersed and had wandered over the country”. See Dr.John Lund’s treatment of this topic in his book: Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, 2009, Addendum One, of his book.

6. Throwing in a picture of an obsidian sword from Meso America is a meaningless argument. You could as well throw in the thousands and thousands of stone arrow heads and spear points that have been found in the continental US. Do you understand the ‘point’??

My original post did not say I was supporting MesoAmerican model evidence/arguments as opposed to Meldrum’s ( . . . or Ed Goble’s!) Heartland Model. I was saying I had many, many reasons for opposing Meldrum’s model independent of anything in support of the MesoAmerican model (but Markharr forced my hand on the smelter).

Three of the biggest reasons I don’t like the Heartland Model, is that Meldrum is starting out with his conclusion and trying to force a fit, instead of actually doing a serious analysis of what the Book of Mormon says about its geography, etc. Neglecting this is putting the cart before the horse. In my view, his force fit is really bad and impossible to rationally support.

Another biggie is that he seems to totally ignore the fact that though Nephi said “a man among the gentiles” would be moved upon by the Holy Ghost to come to the lands of his descendants and open them up to the gentiles. Columbus never set foot on the continental area of the US . . . and we aren’t talking about Puerto Rico.

I would encourage Heartland Model supporters to try to step back and use the multiple hypothesis approach to their studies of these Book of Mormon geography models and ‘evidence’ for same. You’re less apt to be blind-sided.

[larsenb]

Ashkanazi “Jews” who are the majority, did not come from the Middle East but from Europe and now most don’t subscribe to Judaism - so why are they called Jews?

It’s been claimed that all Jews have some tie to the Middle East...

“But historical documents tell a slightly different tale. Based on accounts such as those of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, by the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70, as many as 6 million Jews were living in the Roman Empire, but outside Israel, mainly in Italy and Southern Europe. In contrast, only about 500,000 lived in Judea, said Ostrer, who was not involved in the new study.

"The major Jewish communities were outside Judea," Ostrer told LiveScience.

Maternal DNA

Richards and his colleagues analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which is contained in the cytoplasm of the egg and passed down only from the mother, from more than 3,500 people throughout the Near East, the Caucusus and Europe, including Ashkenazi Jews.

The team found that four founders were responsible for 40 percent of Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA, and that all of these founders originated in Europe. The majority of the remaining people could be traced to other European lineages.

All told, more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to Europe, with only a few lineages originating in the Near East.” https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashke ... genes.html

However, your article said that:

"Past research found that 50 percent to 80 percent of DNA from the Ashkenazi Y chromosome, which is used to trace the male lineage, originated in the Near East, Richards said. That supported a story wherein Jews came from Israel and largely eschewed intermarriage when they settled in Europe". The last sentence has a probable typo, where the word 'intermarriage' should probably read: 'intramarriage'.

This assertion is repeated where the article says: " . . . . . it was mainly women who converted and they married with men who'd come from the Near East . . . "

So the males came from the Near East, which contradicts your assertion that "Ashkanazi 'Jews' who are the majority, did not come from the Middle East but from Europe . . . "

The article also says the data rather blows the Khazar origin of the Ashkenazi Jews out of the water:

"The finding should thoroughly debunk one of the most questionable, but still tenacious, hypotheses: that most Ashkenazi Jews can trace their roots to the mysterious Khazar Kingdom that flourished during the ninth century in the region between the Byzantine Empire and the Persian Empire."

This of course fits what I've contended several times in this forum regarding the lack of Turkik words in the Ashkenazi Yiddish dialect, etc.

[Thinker]

Larsen,
Yes, the article explained what people in the PAST thought - previously...and then explained how that was inaccurate and why...

• “Past research found that 50 percent to 80 percent of DNA from the Ashkenazi Y chromosome, which is used to trace the male lineage, originated in the Near East, Richards said. That supported a story wherein Jews came from Israel and largely eschewed intermarriage when they settled in Europe. [The Holy Land: 7 Amazing Archaeological Finds]
  
  But historical documents tell a slightly different tale. Based on accounts such as those of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, by the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70, as many as 6 million Jews were living in the Roman Empire, but outside Israel, mainly in Italy and Southern Europe. In contrast, only about 500,000 lived in Judea...”

As to the last assertion - that hasn’t been my focus. My reasoning for even bringing this up is to warn people that Zionism as in support of the stolen state of Israel and letting people get away with murder under false pretenses of not being “anti-semetic” - is not of God. Most Jews supporting abortion, lgbtlalala, unjust wars etc - (only for the “goym” - nonjews https://rense.com/general86/talmd.htm) are not genuine Jews but have hijacked the name so they can get away with murder etc.

[larsenb]

Larsen,
Yes, the article explained what people in the PAST thought - previously...and then explained how that was inaccurate and why...

• “Past research found that 50 percent to 80 percent of DNA from the Ashkenazi Y chromosome, which is used to trace the male lineage, originated in the Near East, Richards said. That supported a story wherein Jews came from Israel and largely eschewed intermarriage when they settled in Europe. [The Holy Land: 7 Amazing Archaeological Finds]
  
  But historical documents tell a slightly different tale. Based on accounts such as those of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, by the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70, as many as 6 million Jews were living in the Roman Empire, but outside Israel, mainly in Italy and Southern Europe. In contrast, only about 500,000 lived in Judea...”

As to the last assertion - that hasn’t been my focus. My reasoning for even bringing this up is to warn people that Zionism as in support of the stolen state of Israel and letting people get away with murder under false pretenses of not being “anti-semetic” - is not of God. Most Jews supporting abortion, lgbtlalala, unjust wars etc - (only for the “goym” - nonjews https://rense.com/general86/talmd.htm) are not genuine Jews but have hijacked the name so they can get away with murder etc.

Your reposting this made me realize why I thought 'intermarriage' was a typo. As I see it, the actual meaning of these two sentences is that actual past RESEARCH establishing that 50-80% of Y chromosome DNA from Ashkenazies originated in the Near East, seemed to support the IDEA that Ashkenzies would exhibit mitochondrial haplogroups coming from the same area.

However, recent research has shown that most Ashkenazi mitochondrial haplogroups originated in Europe, indicating the earlier immigrants of the forerunners of these Jews actually 'eschewed' intramarriage, and instead, married non-Jewish European women who converted to Judaism (however, it could be argued that most maternal haplogroups present in Europe actually originated in the Caucasus Mountains and/or the Fertile Crescent; both my wife's and my own maternal groups come from this area, and we are essentially Western European).

This is supported by the statement from Richards (authors informant) later in the article where he says: ""The simplest explanation was that it was mainly women who converted and they married with men who'd come from the Near East,"

So, no the Ashkenazi are not fraudulent Jews who "hijacked the name to they [could] get away with murder". They came from males originating in the Near East (AKA Israel, Judea), who spread to the north out of their later Mediterranean enclaves.

My guess is that the reason these Jewish men married so many European woman outside of their tribal group, is because there was probably a mass movement of largely unmarried men who moved north out of the Mediterranean area seeking their fortunes, not having the means to marry women of their own kind at the time. They probably consisted of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.., sons, whereas the first born son would probably receive the family inheritance and would have no reason to move out seeking his fortune. The same type of thing happened with 2nd, 3rd, etc., sons of British nobility in the 17th century. They went to the new world en mass seeking their fortunes, in an unmarried state, taking pot luck in their New World setting in terms of who they would or could marry; i.e., probably not a lot of high-born women in that environment.

Unmarried trappers/explorers going west would often marry Indian women. Same type of thing.

[larsenb]

Ashkanazi “Jews” who are the majority, did not come from the Middle East but from Europe and now most don’t subscribe to Judaism - so why are they called Jews? . . . . . . https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashke ... genes.html

It should be pointed out that the title of this article covering the mitochondrial DNA of Ashenazi Jews is exceedingly misleading . . . based on the actual content of the article.

[Darren]

After Rome sacked Jerusalem some remnants scattered into nearby local populations. The intermixed Jews are dark skinned and are called Sephardic Jews and make up less than 20 percent of Jews today.

Before Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Most of the House of Israel had relocated to the North Countries. The Jutes of Southern Sweden are direct decedents of the House of Israel, as is also the bulk of the lost tribes of Israel found from Russia to England. Mormon Israelism is the teaching in the LDS Church that the blood line of the House of Israel, and especially Ephraim founded Northern Europe, and the USA.

Modern Israel is made up of 80 percent Ashkenazi Jews who are not the patriarchal decedents of Shem, they are the patriarchal decedents of the Huns, who raped the women and girls after killing off the men of eastern Europe.

What the world believes to be The Jews today is a Falsehood. And the Jewish Religion is a False Religion.

God Bless,
Darren

[Darren]

The three tribes that settled in England and also in so many of the other Germanic countries were the Anglos the Saxons, and the Jutes. British and Mormon Israelism asserts that the patriarchal bloodline of Israel is in the makeup of these three tribes that settled Northern Europe and spread throughout the world. With their patriarchal responsibility to become the leaders of the tribes of Israel, to lead them to the one true Church.

The tribe of the "Jutes" means the tribe of Juda, Linguistically they are the same word.

Ashkenazi Jews not only live under a false religion they are at best matriarchal decedents of Israel, with a patriarchal bloodline from the invading Huns of Western China.

Pictures of Jesus Christ falsely depict him as an Askenazi Tartar, when in fact he probably had blondish or reddish hair and the stature akin to the people traditionally found in Northern Europe.

So much hatred today, designed to eradicate white people and replace them with other races. Reduced birthrates, the Patriarchal race of Israel is under attack, and that attack is being ignored in the media.

Mormonism is the only true church, all the rest are part of the Great and Abominable Church. And how are we going to save the constitution and continue the message of the church unless we remember and understand the true culture of the Germanic Jutes?

God Bless,
Darren

[Darren]

Rome destroyed what was left of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and at that time those Jews still living there had to flee from that area unto other nations, and then they ethnically mixed with those nations.

Those Jews that fled across Northern Africa are a minority of Jews in Jerusalem today, know by many names, i.e. Ethiopian Jews. Those Jews that fled to Spain are also a minority of Jews in Jerusalem today, known as Sephardic Jews. These minority Jews are the only "Real" Jews in Jerusalem.

The majority ethnic division of "Jews" in Jerusalem today do not have one drop of the Patriarchal blood line or Male specific DNA of Israel in them, and as a group were made to be Jews by the edict of the Caliph of the Khazarian Empire in 740 A.D. This was done to build a Jewish Empire Domain for the Sanhedrin of the Jews.

The "Black" or "Brown" Jews of Spain and Northern Africa have traditionally been treated as trash by the 90% majority of what is called the Ashkenazi Jews descended from the Khazars.

Ashkenazi Jews are the offspring of the Japheth descendant Huns, who invaded Europe, that while conquering exterminated all of the Israelite men and boys, taking the Israelite women and girls to be their captive wives. The majority Ashenazi Jews in Jerusalem today do not have one drop of blood of Israel from their Patriarchal Linage, they are admittedly of the linage of Japheth. That is why Jewish linages are kept from matriarchal lines.

It is important to remember, that from the LDS point of view, the Jewish Religion is a False Religion. That until they individually convert into being LDS they are living in "gross darkness" and under Satan's power.

The really horrible part of the False Jewish Religion is the Ashkenazi control upon the whole of their culture. That the leader of the Ashkenazi group is the Apostate mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Sanhedrin of management of that False Jewish Religion is the "Mainspring of Corruption" in the world today.

Just Sad,
Darren

[Thinker]

Considering most Ashkenazi “Jews” are in the US - how can you be so confident in suggesting they are, genuine Jews - having consistent Jewish maternal line going back to Israel and practicing Judaism - which doesn’t apply to most Ashkenazi “Jews”?

[larsenb]

After Rome sacked Jerusalem some remnants scattered into nearby local populations. The intermixed Jews are dark skinned and are called Sephardic Jews and make up less than 20 percent of Jews today.

Before Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Most of the House of Israel had relocated to the North Countries. The Jutes of Southern Sweden are direct decedents of the House of Israel, as is also the bulk of the lost tribes of Israel found from Russia to England. Mormon Israelism is the teaching in the LDS Church that the blood line of the House of Israel, and especially Ephraim founded Northern Europe, and the USA.

Modern Israel is made up of 80 percent Ashkenazi Jews who are not the patriarchal decedents of Shem, they are the patriarchal decedents of the Huns, who raped the women and girls after killing off the men of eastern Europe.

What the world believes to be The Jews today is a Falsehood. And the Jewish Religion is a False Religion.

God Bless,
Darren

The above article that we are discussing disputes your contention that: "Ashkenazi Jews who are not the patriarchal decedents of Shem, [but] are the patriarchal decedents of the Huns, who raped the women and girls after killing off the men of eastern Europe".

The article is based on DNA studies of the Y chromosome of Ashkenazi Jews, indicating that the males came from the 'Near East', AKA, Judea/Israel, in this case.

So you are apparently up against hard data.

Also, your statement that scattered Jews into nearby local populations are dark skinned . . . . . maybe partly true and these Jews who made it to Spain, may have kept much of both their Near East derived Y and Mitochondrial DNA, including slightly darker skin. But I think you're being way too black-and-white with this assertion.