Apostasy in Riverton (Bishop Paul Augenstein)

[Jack Vance 79]

Anyone else heard about this ward in Riverton where the Bishop (Paul Augenstein) and his wife (Susie) are absolutely obsessed with lgbt people and have a not so hidden agenda to bring about a discussion on changing church doctrine regarding same sex married couples. At the end of January they set aside the third block on a Sunday to discuss this issue with their congregation. They're planning a cruise off of California for gay members.They are affiliated with former Bishop Richard Ostler who prints long posts on social media, his own website, and now produces a podcast. How are the members of the ward meant to react, or not, to this? I for one would not be able to sustain him in conferences or during temple recommend interviews. Would I find myself without a temple recommend, unworthy to be in God's presence. This is apostasy at the local level very similar to what Paul warned against in the Grecian world in NT times. Sheep in wolves' clothing, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, and leading the elect away.

Thoughts?

[Elizabeth]

Thoughts?

[Lizzy60]

I would find another ward/stake to attend.

I predict we will see more of this.

We are literally seeing things turned upside down. Opponents of gay marriage are portrayed as "Westboro Baptist Church" crazy bigots, and the leaders of the LDS Church are being blamed for teen suicide because they preach that homosexual relationships are sinful.

It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

[Older/wiser?]

Anyone else heard about this ward in Riverton where the Bishop (Paul Augenstein) and his wife (Susie) are absolutely obsessed with lgbt people and have a not so hidden agenda to bring about a discussion on changing church doctrine regarding same sex married couples. At the end of January they set aside the third block on a Sunday to discuss this issue with their congregation. They're planning a cruise off of California for gay members.They are affiliated with former Bishop Richard Ostler who prints long posts on social media, his own website, and now produces a podcast. How are the members of the ward meant to react, or not, to this? I for one would not be able to sustain him in conferences or during temple recommend interviews. Would I find myself without a temple recommend, unworthy to be in God's presence. This is apostasy at the local level very similar to what Paul warned against in the Grecian world in NT times. Sheep in wolves' clothing, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, and leading the elect away.

Thoughts?

Shouldn't the SP be aware of this, I predict it won't be long before he's released or at least called in, they must have a personal stake in their agenda. To set aside the 3rd block for what they believe is way out of line IMO. I wouldn't be quite , changing church doctrine? Go to the Stake with your concerns, this could do a lot of damage to "the flock".

[simpleton]

Anyone else heard about this ward in Riverton where the Bishop (Paul Augenstein) and his wife (Susie) are absolutely obsessed with lgbt people and have a not so hidden agenda to bring about a discussion on changing church doctrine regarding same sex married couples. At the end of January they set aside the third block on a Sunday to discuss this issue with their congregation. They're planning a cruise off of California for gay members.They are affiliated with former Bishop Richard Ostler who prints long posts on social media, his own website, and now produces a podcast. How are the members of the ward meant to react, or not, to this? I for one would not be able to sustain him in conferences or during temple recommend interviews. Would I find myself without a temple recommend, unworthy to be in God's presence. This is apostasy at the local level very similar to what Paul warned against in the Grecian world in NT times. Sheep in wolves' clothing, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, and leading the elect away.

Thoughts?

Isaiah 3:

9The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

10Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

11Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

13The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.

14The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

15What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21The rings, and nose jewels, 22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

26And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.


Whether we like it or not the above is us and it is literally coming to pass, among many other predictions...

[brianj]

I would definitely schedule an appointment with the stake president. Ask him how you can simultaneously sustain the First Presidency and Apostles and your bishop when your bishop teaches things that contradict the general authorities.

[gardener4life]

I will respond to you privately with how to address this. I think that is best. I have an answer for you privately and for anyone else who encounters this type of situation; who can message me privately. If I think they only intend good I may reply there. But I don't think it would be wise to air such types of cases publicly if possible except when its a cry for 'help'.

But there are some things that need to be said publicly.

But let me say this. Running away won't solve the problem.This is almost like being in Brigham Young's day and we went to sacrament and heard people are trapped starving on the plains. The poor people in these wards can't be left to 'die'. Neither can we abandon the youth that have no choice over their situation. And if you retreat it will only spread.

So moving away will only accelerate the cancer. And if it can start in that ward then it can go to others. I suggest that you can't really run away from Babylon right now. We can choose to not participate in it, but it's all around us. I mean we have a time where we have to guard our hearts, homes, and temples but that we have to endure in faith. Retreating isn't always an option.

You need to prayerfully consider how to share a testimony of love without anger in wards that are sick like this and stand up for truth and what's right. This is why Elder Oaks was made a counselor and why others have been speaking out about truth and the Ensign having articles for it recently. A division is happening between those that love truth and those that feel obligated by it but lost their love of it.

Some of us will choose to love and follow it. Some will fall away. But death is more than the death of the body. And rightfully should we fear the death of the soul more than any other woe.

If you have to stand up for what you feel is right make sure you do so. And do so with love and the spirit without anger so that those in stewardships don't confuse you with those that are the problem. You shouldn't do act alone in these situations either but go with those you trust that will follow the Savior.

Also don't focus on our kingdom being in this world. This world isn't the center of his kingdom, but more like a crossroads. Pray for discernment and for strength to endure, and for strength to support those in need, and to not leave them by the way side to suffer.

[djinwa]

Sometimes our leaders speak for God and sometimes they speak as a man, their own opinion.

So just follow him when you want to.

As I've learned on this site, you just have to pray to find out when they are speaking for God. Then just follow that, and ignore the other.

[Older/wiser?]

Sometimes our leaders speak for God and sometimes they speak as a man, their own opinion.

So just follow him when you want to.

As I've learned on this site, you just have to pray to find out when they are speaking for God. Then just follow that, and ignore the other.

So I am not sure,if you are serious or being facetious. We sustain our leaders, I don't believe in picking and choosing what I will follow, going on the assumption that they are in harmony with the Church that I belong to, the spirit does witness truth but common sense dictates In this case the bishop seems to be out of the way of the teachings and policies of the Church. So again SP needs to know the teachings that are being promoted. All done in love for flock and bishop.

[Finrock]

Sometimes our leaders speak for God and sometimes they speak as a man, their own opinion.

So just follow him when you want to.

As I've learned on this site, you just have to pray to find out when they are speaking for God. Then just follow that, and ignore the other.

So I am not sure,if you are serious or being facetious. We sustain our leaders, I don't believe in picking and choosing what I will follow, going on the assumption that they are in harmony with the Church that I belong to, the spirit does witness truth but common sense dictates In this case the bishop seems to be out of the way of the teachings and policies of the Church. So again SP needs to know the teachings that are being promoted. All done in love for flock and bishop.

I mean, aren't you really just saying that you can pick and choose who you will follow or when you will follow a bishop? If this man is the bishop, then he was chosen of God to be in this position, right? He is the wards leader and he should be sustained. If you don't believe in picking and choosing what you will follow, then why would this be an exception? You say the assumption is that they are in harmony with the Church, but we can't just decide they aren't in harmony with the Church because we don't like what they are teaching, no? You say its common sense, but, what prevents anyone from saying the same thing given whatever doctrine or teaching the bishop is teaching, when they don't like it?

I think djinwa has it right and I think you agree with him. Otherwise, you response doesn't make any sense to me because you seem to contradict yourself in your message. You called djinwa out in your post by providing a rule that you live by but then demonstrate in this post that there are exceptions to the rule, which is exactly what djinwa said. You seem to be okay with deciding when you will sustain and follow and when you will not.

-Finrock

[Older/wiser?]

That's just it, it is the bishops teaching, He is one, I have already chosen to follow the body of the Church , I sustain the prophet and the 12, the bishop seems to not sustain nor follow church dictates, the assumption is the bishop is also in harmony with the church teachings, which he appears not to be. I have never been in a block meeting where the bishop promotes changing church doctrine on Same Sex Marriage , nor a meeting when the Bishop promotes Polygamy, or abortion. If I were I would voice my opinion as he is not in line with the leaders nor sustaining Them. I am not his judge nor jury, but I would be certain that the SP was aware of his teachings and they can decide if he is in harmony with the brethren and church teachings.

[Finrock]

That's just it, it is the bishops teaching, He is one, I have already chosen to follow the body of the Church , I sustain the prophet and the 12, the bishop seems to not sustain nor follow church dictates, the assumption is the bishop is also in harmony with the church teachings, which he appears not to be. I have never been in a block meeting where the bishop promotes changing church doctrine on Same Sex Marriage , nor a meeting when the Bishop promotes Polygamy, or abortion. If I were I would voice my opinion as he is not in line with the leaders nor sustaining Them. I am not his judge nor jury, but I would be certain that the SP was aware of his teachings and they can decide if he is in harmony with the brethren and church teachings.

Yeah, me too, if I felt the Bishop wasn't speaking for God and wasn't teaching correct doctrine. In essence, you are saying what djinwa is saying.

Sometimes our leaders speak for God and sometimes they speak as a man, their own opinion.

Pray to find out when they are speaking for God. Then just follow that, and ignore the other.

In your case, you would just report the bishop to your SP as well. That seems to be the only difference.

-Finrock

[Older/wiser?]

Look at the subject matter, it is not if I felt he was out of the way, is he supporting church doctrine, what the 12 and prophet teach, No he is trying to change church policy, and using his trusting flock to present his personal platform. I see the obvious difference, I say white you'll say black doesn't matter really . Your a good soul Finnrock, it's late have a great Saturday.

[Fiannan]

[cyclOps]

This is what the OP is referring to. The article was written by one of the attendees.

http://www.ldsliving.com/Inactive-Gay-M ... rs/s/87741

[cyclOps]

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[cyclOps]

65076938-FADC-4691-A7BD-470864C73CA2.png (763.92 KiB) Viewed 13751 times

[Finrock]

Well, in any case, I think its important that we have all of the facts before anyone judges this ward or bishop as being in apostasy. Reaching out to others and trying to make them feel included, welcomed, and loved, doesn't sound like apostasy to me. When I was living in my little hell and was surrounded by sin, it was the wonderful, non-judgmental, inclusive, and merciful love of my bishop that helped me to begin to heal.

-Finrock

[Lizzy60]

Well, in any case, I think its important that we have all of the facts before anyone judges this ward or bishop as being in apostasy. Reaching out to others and trying to make them feel included, welcomed, and loved, doesn't sound like apostasy to me. When I was living in my little hell and was surrounded by sin, it was the wonderful, non-judgmental, inclusive, and merciful love of my bishop that helped me to begin to heal.

-Finrock

The difference between your experience and this group of people in Riverton (and others in the church) is that you and your Bishop sought and desired repentence and forgiveness from the sins in your life, while the pro-LGBT groups want the church to change to a belief that homosexual sex is not a sin. They want their gay children to have the hope of living an "authentic" life, which means having gay relationships and gay sex. They are lobbying for a "revelation" that the LDS church has been wrong about homosexuality just as we were wrong about blacks and priesthood.

They don't want to be healed.

[Thinker]

A couple main things seem to be going on here: tribalism and accepting shifted blame.

1) Tribalism is obviously a big part of the church, and some of us have been hurt by it - no matter what particular reason we may disagree with the tribe - there tends to be name calling like, “apostate.” So, it’s a harsh blow when the tables are turned. I’m not saying what this bishop did was good - the opposite as you’ll see in the next point - but I see identity politics as similar to “members” getting a sense of identity and belonging. Ie: LDS living is becoming more and more leftist - and is encouraging homosexual herd mentality, which is not only tribal, but an unhealthy, illogical (emotional reasoning) mentality that statistically proves to hurt people. It is imperative that we think for ourselves - study things out carefully along with spiritual guidance. Don’t blindly follow!

2) This bishop seems to have been sucked into the scapegoating homosexual fanatics are trying to shove onto the church and its members. There has been a trend in heaping all of the blame of a host of problems leading to suicidal thoughts on the church’s policy about children of homosexual couples not being baptized. If it were really the church, we’d see children of polygamy parents also more suicidal because the same restriction applies to them, but that’s not what we see. Wanting to appear the heroes, he & his wife are going along with the lie that the church is to blame for any suicidal thoughts. While I do recognize cognitive distortions & tithing distortions often taught, suicidal intent is in no way just one reason like a church policy, but many...

”The most common cause of suicide is untreated depression, as 90% of individuals who commit suicide are depressed. However, there are other causes beyond the realm of mental illness that should be discussed including:
1) Depression*/mental illness
2) Trauma
3) Financial problems
4) Existential crises
5) Chronic pain
6) Terminal illnesses
7) Personality disorders
8) Bullying
9) Drug addiction/substance abuse, including prescription drugs
10) Eating Disorders
11) Unemployment
12) Social Isolation/Lonliness
13) Relationship problems
14) Genetics/family history
15) Existential Crisis
https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/07/2 ... hemselves/

As human beings, we are so complex! Diet, sleep (or lack of), exercise (or lack of) besides thinking patterns can also affect how we feel. And remember, the APA defined homosexuality as a mental disorder, and changed it without any scientific studies justifying the change. It is ignor-ant to blame everything on a church. And they never really state what the church has really done - because if they did they’d realize that even with denying children of couples living homosexual lifestyles baptism, the church has repeatedly essentially said, “Love the sinner, not the sin.” But with identity politics - and as noted by some of the speakers in that meeting - they identify with their sin so much that sadly, they don’t see any difference.

Paraphrasing a quote: “Tollerance for individuals. Intollerance for lies/sins.”
If you love someone, you hope and strive for what’s healthy for them, and statistically, homosexual lifestyles are not healthy...
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/mental-health.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
https://www.webmd.com/sex/anal-sex-health-concerns

[Rose Garden]

I read about a church meeting in Riverton on the ex-Mormon channel on Reddit a few weeks ago. Apparently they had a combined RS/priesthood meeting, although I got the impression it was more than just the last hour of church. The writer claimed to have attended this meeting in a Riverton ward that he could not remember the name of. No explanation of how he happened to be there. He described presentations by LGBTQ members talking about their various experiences, including at least one by an actual couple. Those listening to the presentation reportedly were paying attention and impressed.

Lots of red flags there that made me question whether this was true. Where were the outraged members reporting this meeting to their leaders?

The writer claimed videos were made of the meeting. I said I'd wait for those videos to come out before believing that the meeting took place.

This thread actually names a name so I looked it up. I found nothing on a Paul Augenstein in Riverton. I did find a reference to Paul in Augenstein from the Bible though.

I'm calling crap.

[Durzan]

Temporarily Locked, b/c someone reported it. This isn't about a public figure, which apparently can be construed as going against the forum policy. Pending thread review by Brian and fellow Moderators.

[EmmaLee]

Why was the thread about the pro-gay Riverton Bishop deleted?? There was zero contention on the thread - no forum rule had been broken - and it was an important topic to be discussed.

What an odd place LDSFF is turning out to be - endless threads by people promoting many things AGAINST the LDS Church, and the apostles (such as all the MANY Amonhi, Robert Sinclair, et al, threads) are left up and are allowed to continue for page after page after page. Yet a thread bringing to light something that we all need to be made aware of (because it's coming to all our wards and stakes eventually, you can count on it) gets deleted. Utterly bizarre. Nothing "free" about a "freedom" forum that censors indiscriminately like that.

[Thinker]

Maybe it’s in limbo - in the process of moving to another subforum?

[EmmaLee]

Maybe it’s in limbo - in the process of moving to another subforum?

Nope, I found out it was deleted by a moderator. For what reason, I have no idea - because it followed all forum rules, and it was pretty tame compared to MANY threads that are allowed to continue on and on.

The topic needed to be discussed, IMO. Hiding such things and pretending pro-gay Bishops don't exist in the Church is just going to make things worse when more and more of this type of thing happens in more and more wards - and it will.

I looked the Bishop up on Facebook - he and his wife share an account. They are VERY public and open about their stance on pro-gay issues. In fact, they video recorded that 3rd-hour Sunday meeting and sent it to Church Headquarters. So pretending on LDSFF that this all doesn't exist isn't going to change anything. But I guess some members want to live in comfy little bubbles, hoping the world doesn't break into their safe spaces. Sorry, folks - already has! It's better to know about these things and discuss them, rather than being blindsided when it happens in your ward.