School Shooting in FL/WA/GA/MI/MD/YouTube/TX

[iWriteStuff]

There is often a cry and a hue around here for the police to have probable cause to make arrests. So are some of you now advocating thought crimes? Have you now abandoned probable cause?

Is there a difference between a thought crime and publicly stating the desire to shoot up a school, kill cops, and basically go out in a blaze of glory with your trusty rifle sitting next to you in a picture you post to social media?

I'd think there was a difference between the two. As per probable cause, how much more probable do you get than establishing ability, motive and the stated intent to commit a crime?

You've been/are in law enforcement, if I remember correctly. What say ye? At what point do you want to confront this kid: before or after the shooting?

[yjacket]

Finrock,
You really nailed it - many excellent points. Essentially, you pointed out how it does take a village to raise a child & if we really want to prevent something like this from happening in our neighborhoods, we need to figure out exactly what response-ability we have. As mentioned, it is counterproductive to jump to the conclusion, “The guy was just evil.” - Not only does it involve hypocrisy (who isn’t somewhat evil?) but it also is the easy, cheating way out - pretending it’s all someone else’s problem, when in reality, that problem affected many who may have had such narrow mentality before this.

I’m not suggesting determinism, & I don’t think you were either, but it is important to realize that “in each of us is a bit of all of us.” While we all have free agency, some have their free agency hurt through traumatic upbringing. This is why we have to be careful and not condemn but judge righteously. He will pay for what he did - but in the big picture, I believe people who hurt others do so because they are hurting, so I’m praying for both the victims and families and for this man who acted out his personal horrors.

Excuse me? (to the bold). Do you even hear yourself. Who isn't somewhat evil? Yes we all have evil thoughts or even desires but we don't SHOOT UP and MURDER innocents. It's not the least bit of hypocrisy or even the easy way out.

Why is it so hard to actually understand that in this world there will actually be evil, wicked men and women? Yet, we make excuses for them, they weren't wicked they were just "misunderstood" and if only somebody had been there!!

False, lies of the Devil. Some men and women choose a life of evilness. You are right that it takes a village but this is absolutely just a sign of our wicked, evil, idolatrous society! Was morality ever taught? Did you ever think for one second that these wicked people, do they go to Church? Did their parents teach them right and wrong?

What's different between today and 50 years ago . . .morality and God! 50 years ago, almost all kids went to Church, were taught religious lessons, understood basic right/wrong. Sure there were always some trouble makers and individuals who choose evil, but by and large it was a moral, righteous society and as such the children were righteous.

Gun control isn't the answer, more supervision, more monitoring isn't the answer. Once you understand that it is pure wickedness, then you understand the only solution is for this nation as a whole to return to God. God is calling this nation to repentance. It's just not hearing His voice.

[h_p]

There is often a cry and a hue around here for the police to have probable cause to make arrests. So are some of you now advocating thought crimes? Have you now abandoned probable cause?

I, for one, certainly am not. I've seen a number of people on my Facebook feed advocating for that very thing, though. I think a growing number of people in this country want whatever it takes to make these kinds of incidents never happen again, even if it means enslaving ourselves to tighter restraint than one would find in a prison.

But I think in this guy's case, there was plenty that could have been done under existing laws and due process that apparently never was.

[mirkwood]

Is there a difference between a thought crime and publicly stating the desire to shoot up a school, kill cops, and basically go out in a blaze of glory with your trusty rifle sitting next to you in a picture you post to social media?

I'd think there was a difference between the two. As per probable cause, how much more probable do you get than establishing ability, motive and the stated intent to commit a crime?

You've been/are in law enforcement, if I remember correctly. What say ye? At what point do you want to confront this kid: before or after the shooting?

When the statements are made you begin an investigation. That does not always = an arrest. State code dictates when the line is crossed and something like this becomes a crime. If that line is not crossed, then there is not a whole lot that law enforcement can do at that point. What the pre shooting details on this are I do not know, except what the media tells us. I doubt that they have the full picture on what was known in advance, or necessarily are accurate in what they are claiming. In order to make an arrest, there has to be probable cause. Whether or not that existed pre shooting I do not know. What I often see are people clamoring for something to be done that sounds an awful lot like a demand for the minority report to become reality. People complain and say the police do not follow probable cause, then they get upset over something else and say that the police should have acted with out probable cause. I've seen it on this site in the past, thus my question.

[nvr]

No. If this is a govt / nwo / illuminati/ Whoever conspiracy, they are doing a terrible job of it. Gun rights have only become stronger over the last 20 yrs.

I believe it is a house of cards about to come down. People are fed up with gun violence. Right or wrong, in true American fashion the public will demand the government to do something.

There is no rational argument for wide spread ownership of assault weapons that can counter the overwhelming public emotional response to seeing texts, photos, and videos of the scared kids, or hearing their descriptions of fear and chaos, and watching 17 more funerals.

Gun people made a mistake by not recognizing people's real fears of guns while at the same time perpetuating an explosion in extreme gun culture.

20-years ago I was firmly in the gun rights camp, I had my hunting guns and didn't want them taken away. But too much of the gun industry is no longer about hunting or plinking. I recently watched a video from the "shot show" showing off all the new guns. The smiling brand salesman told about all the advances in his or her new line....and every single one of them was designed for one purpose. The public will not stand for it much longer.

What if you're wrong? What if this was in fact a set-up scenario involving a former mental health center patient who got scooped up by an agency to carry out this attack (with help as it's been reported) for the purpose of turning the public's opinion on gun control?
As unlikely as this sounds, I think it is just as unlikely for a young man to just head down to school and mow down his fellow students in cold blood.
In order to assure unchecked power and control, a tyrannical government needs to cut off access to arms by the people. It was interesting to see how teachers, students and all else involved, in their news interviews, brought up well-prepared points about the need for new laws on gun control. This was the day of or next day after that their peers were shot dead that they were bringing it up - it sounded out of place to make these points given raw emotions they must have been facing at the time.

I think it is probable that the same sort of dark-side government groups which demo'd building 7 as well as buildings 1, 2 on 911 to get control in the mid-east likely also planned and initiated most of these mass-shooting events to pave the way for gun control to suit their needs.

[gkearney]

You see I told you it is possible to spin a conspiracy theory anyway one wants. Here in the inverse of my rather silly gunmakers theory below, offered up I might add with the same amount of evidence.

The difference between the two is that some people here want to believe the one below while everyone, including myself, should be able to see my example as clearly an exaggeration. But spread mine about in say a forum dedicated to gun control and I am willing to bet I would find believers in it.

[David13]

You see I told you it is possible to spin a conspiracy theory anyway one wants. Here in the inverse of my rather silly gunmakers theory below, offered up I might add with the same amount of evidence.

The difference between the two is that some people here want to believe the one below while everyone, including myself, should be able to see my example as clearly an exaggeration. But spread mine about in say a forum dedicated to gun control and I am willing to bet I would find believers in it.

You point out the obvious.

But you didn't answer my question

To you, which is the more likely scenario?

Let's say you decide that there are things you don't like with the official scenario as portrayed so you have two choices. The two sides of conspiracy as you set forth.

Which one, to you, knowing what's going on in this country at this time, is the more likely scenario?

dc

[iWriteStuff]

Here comes more calls for gun control:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/18/politics ... index.html

David Hogg, one of the students, spoke on NBC's "Meet the Press" and issued an angry and passionate call for Trump to take action on the issue.

"You're the President," Hogg said. "You're supposed to bring this nation together, not divide us. How dare you? Children are dying, and their blood is on your hands because of that. Please take action. Stop going on vacation in Mar-a-Lago. Take action. Work with Congress. Your party controls both the House and Senate. Take action, get some bills passed, and for God's sake, let's save some lives."

That being said, I saw a picture of Donald and Melania meeting with my friend's niece in the hospital as she recovered from surgery. Kinda nice. What's his take on changing existing gun laws so far? Big mystery:

President Trump is facing calls to act in the wake of the latest mass shooting, which killed 17 people on Wednesday at a high school in Florida. The White House says the president will participate in a pair of listening sessions on school safety this week, but so far he has dodged questions about whether he will take up the issue of access to guns.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/19/58698403 ... about-guns

My guess would be nothing happens...... for now.

[Arenera]

Here comes more calls for gun control:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/18/politics ... index.html

David Hogg, one of the students, spoke on NBC's "Meet the Press" and issued an angry and passionate call for Trump to take action on the issue.

"You're the President," Hogg said. "You're supposed to bring this nation together, not divide us. How dare you? Children are dying, and their blood is on your hands because of that. Please take action. Stop going on vacation in Mar-a-Lago. Take action. Work with Congress. Your party controls both the House and Senate. Take action, get some bills passed, and for God's sake, let's save some lives."

That being said, I saw a picture of Donald and Melania meeting with my friend's niece in the hospital as she recovered from surgery. Kinda nice. What's his take on changing existing gun laws so far? Big mystery:

President Trump is facing calls to act in the wake of the latest mass shooting, which killed 17 people on Wednesday at a high school in Florida. The White House says the president will participate in a pair of listening sessions on school safety this week, but so far he has dodged questions about whether he will take up the issue of access to guns.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/19/58698403 ... about-guns

My guess would be nothing happens...... for now.

Every household should have 2 to 4 AR-15s. When that is accomplished, we can play Jaredites.

[gkearney]

You see I told you it is possible to spin a conspiracy theory anyway one wants. Here in the inverse of my rather silly gunmakers theory below, offered up I might add with the same amount of evidence.

The difference between the two is that some people here want to believe the one below while everyone, including myself, should be able to see my example as clearly an exaggeration. But spread mine about in say a forum dedicated to gun control and I am willing to bet I would find believers in it.

You point out the obvious.

But you didn't answer my question

To you, which is the more likely scenario?

Let's say you decide that there are things you don't like with the official scenario as portrayed so you have two choices. The two sides of conspiracy as you set forth.

Which one, to you, knowing what's going on in this country at this time, is the more likely scenario?

dc

Neither one seems to me very likely. Rather I suspect a disturbed young man got ahold of a gun he should never have had access to and committed a terrible crime. No dark motives of Gandiantians no conspiracy of gunmakers. The simplest explanations for things is usually the most likely.

[JohnnyL]

The simplest explanations for things is usually the most likely.

Are you trying to quote Occam's Razor?

[JohnnyL]

No. If this is a govt / nwo / illuminati/ Whoever conspiracy, they are doing a terrible job of it. Gun rights have only become stronger over the last 20 yrs.

I believe it is a house of cards about to come down. People are fed up with gun violence. Right or wrong, in true American fashion the public will demand the government to do something.

There is no rational argument for wide spread ownership of assault weapons that can counter the overwhelming public emotional response to seeing texts, photos, and videos of the scared kids, or hearing their descriptions of fear and chaos, and watching 17 more funerals.

Gun people made a mistake by not recognizing people's real fears of guns while at the same time perpetuating an explosion in extreme gun culture.

20-years ago I was firmly in the gun rights camp, I had my hunting guns and didn't want them taken away. But too much of the gun industry is no longer about hunting or plinking. I recently watched a video from the "shot show" showing off all the new guns. The smiling brand salesman told about all the advances in his or her new line....and every single one of them was designed for one purpose. The public will not stand for it much longer.

What if you're wrong? What if this was in fact a set-up scenario involving a former mental health center patient who got scooped up by an agency to carry out this attack (with help as it's been reported) for with the purpose of turning the public's opinion on gun control?
As unlikely as this sounds, I think it is just as unlikely for a young man to just head down to school and mow down his fellow students in cold blood.
In order to assure unchecked power and control, a tyrannical government needs to cut off access to arms by the people. It was interesting to see how teachers, students and all else involved, in their news interviews, brought up well-prepared points about the need for new laws on gun control. This was the day of or next day after that their peers were shot dead that they were bringing it up - it sounded out of place to make these points given raw emotions they must have been facing at the time.

I think it is probable that the same sort of dark-side government groups which demo'd building 7 as well as buildings 1, 2 on 911 to get control in the mid-east likely also planned and initiated most of these mass-shooting events to pave the way for gun control to suit their needs.

Absolutely. Most every serious high-media shooting, especially mass shooting, especially school mass shooting: "GR" stamped.

[nvr]

You see I told you it is possible to spin a conspiracy theory anyway one wants. Here in the inverse of my rather silly gunmakers theory below, offered up I might add with the same amount of evidence.

The difference between the two is that some people here want to believe the one below while everyone, including myself, should be able to see my example as clearly an exaggeration. But spread mine about in say a forum dedicated to gun control and I am willing to bet I would find believers in it.

There's definitely precedence for the scenario of a government-directed patsy. Take this case last year of a young man with schizophrenia who was entrapped by FBI in Oklahoma:

“What the public should be looking at is the fact that the FBI gave our son the means to make this happen. He has no job, no money, no vehicle, and no driver’s license, due to the fact that he is schizophrenic and we; his parents do everything we can possible to keep him safe and functional….. He has suffered through countless serious full-blown schizophrenic delusional episodes and he has been put in numerous mental hospitals since he was 16 years old. The FBI came and picked him up from our home, they gave him a vehicle, gave him a fake bomb, and every means to make this happen none of which he had access to on his own.

http://newsok.com/article/5560334

[Gage]

Pro-gun is losing the public debate because they hold to the idea "all access to all weapons or we fight".

So if it becomes nearly impossible to get a gun legally (people will still get guns illegally) everyone will just give up harming others and violence and decide that we should all just love one another instead?

Well first of all, why not? Do you plan to meet Jesus when he comes again to establish peace with your AR, a sack full of pro-mags and glock on your hip? " Whew, glad I made it Jesus, of course I had to grease about 132 zombies to get here, almost ran out of ammo, so where is this Zion gonna be?"

Secondly, that argument is exactly the all or nothing stance I was criticizing. It is no longer believable to the public. Why? Because the shooters in these school shootings are NOT criminals with illegal guns, they are regular people obtaining mass killing machines legally. People are more afraid of regular people with guns than they are afraid of criminals. The status quo is seeing people killed but gun people refuse to discuss any options of changing the status quo. Refusing to come to table for any type of discussion is going to make it so that when the politicians react to the public's outcry the gun people will have no say in resulting rules.

That is why I say, change is coming, it will come fast, and gun people won't like it.

Yes will probably have a couple AR's when the Lord comes. So you are saying we have a gun problem and not a "people" problem. Its not the people that are evil its the guns? So all we need to do is take the guns off the streets and out of all the homes and this country will go back to being a moral, God fearing land of love and peace?

[tdj]

The punk is a sick, horrible person and I totally get your frustration. May he rot in hell.

I bet if someone were to look, there would be thousands of similar digital footprints that could be found right now. What are we to do? Take away their rights for something they said? Prosecute all of them for a crime that they might commit? Employee thousands of new officers to do nothing but go interview anybody using hate speech on the internet?

What is a workable solution?

How about a psych eval? How about an investigation? How about try to get him help before he acts out his stated purpose? How about AT LEAST TEMPORARILY remove the gun from his possession until we can be sure that a guy introducing himself as a "future school shooter" isn't anything more than someone with a really really really really really poor sense of humor? He was reported, and nothing was done. His friends and family knew he wasn't right in the head, but nothing was done.

Ability, motive and intent were all established. And nothing was done to prevent it.

I don't think you can have a respect for guns and be ok with the way this was handled. This hurts EVERYONE, not least of which are law abiding gun enthusiasts. If anything, gun enthusiasts should be the most offended by his actions.

We can do better than this.

What you are suggesting here sounds a lot like eliminating Due Process and changing the fundamental to our justice system that we are innocent UNTIL proven guilty. I can’t accept that.

Due process is a joke, and a sham. We ARE guilty until proven innocent. Otherwise, why would they jail people, dress them in jail suits, and subject them to all sorts of disrespectful, nasty indignaties if the accused was considered innocent until proven guilty? I know some people they keep locked up out of a genuine fear that they will either hurt someone, or run away, but EVERYONE now has to have money in order to get out of jail Otherwise, they are treated as criminals. Also, the defense attorneys are paid pennies BY THE STATE, to defend an accused, whereas the district attorney's, who are also paid by the state, get quite a decent income to do what they do. Our criminal "justice" system is a complete joke, and a sham. It's no wonder we are on the verge of losing our guns.

[tribrac]

What if you're wrong? What if this was in fact a set-up scenario involving a former mental health center patient who got scooped up by an agency to carry out this attack (with help as it's been reported) for the purpose of turning the public's opinion on gun control?
As unlikely as this sounds, I think it is just as unlikely for a young man to just head down to school and mow down his fellow students in cold blood.
In order to assure unchecked power and control, a tyrannical government needs to cut off access to arms by the people. It was interesting to see how teachers, students and all else involved, in their news interviews, brought up well-prepared points about the need for new laws on gun control. This was the day of or next day after that their peers were shot dead that they were bringing it up - it sounded out of place to make these points given raw emotions they must have been facing at the time.

I think it is probable that the same sort of dark-side government groups which demo'd building 7 as well as buildings 1, 2 on 911 to get control in the mid-east likely also planned and initiated most of these mass-shooting events to pave the way for gun control to suit their needs.

If this was an elaborate hoax then our problems are too big for your AR to solve.

[tribrac]

Yes will probably have a couple AR's when the Lord comes. So you are saying we have a gun problem and not a "people" problem. Its not the people that are evil its the guns? So all we need to do is take the guns off the streets and out of all the homes and this country will go back to being a moral, God fearing land of love and peace?

No I did not say "we have a gun problem and not a "people" problem" so kindly please don't put words in my mouth to argue against.

I don't have a lot of time this morning so I won't type out a TLDR explanation of my opinions. But using your parlance the condensed version would be something like "America has people problems and an unhealthy reliance on force combined with easy access to the means to kill"

The loner, tough-luck kid thought force by way of a using a gun against his peers would resolve his issues.
The frightened public believes force against the guns by way of legislating will resolve the issues.
The gun owners believe force against those who would take their guns will resolve their issues.

And we spiral downward closer and closer to the exact conditions the Book of Mormon warns us against, somehow believing we are exempt.

[nvr]

Wow these kids are very resilient. They were able to give calm interviews with David Gogg on the need for new gun laws while hiding from the gunman in a dark classroom just after hearing their fellow students shot dead. No shell shock, or traumatization to cloud their speaking- well done.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 77689.html

edit: link to above video of David Gogg was removed from youtube b/c of 'bullying / harrassing' policy since I posted this - he was practicing his lines and being coached by someone in front of camera..
Here's it is again :

nevermind, that was scrubbed too, here it is again:
https://d.tube/#!/v/jasonallenjames/38qvu6jp
Trauma survivors don't need help remembering details and polishing delivery, the event will always be ingrained vividly in memory

[Gage]

But can you see where the problem of blaming guns leads, it leads to idiotic "solutions" like this ladies brilliant idea to just depend on the police for protection and to heck with your freedoms and Constitutional rights.


Open letter from shooting victim's aunt: 'We don't want your prayers'

Why is your hunting hobby more important than my niece's life? Don't you see that your "second amendment" rights have been twisted and distorted beyond any rational interpretation? Why should my niece have been sacrificed at the altar of your "freedoms?"

Why don't you trust our police to protect us from crime? Don't you realise that mental illness has been and always will be a part of the human condition and that weapons of war should not be available to those among us who dream of mayhem and death? Don't you see the blood on all of our hands?

[iWriteStuff]

IT BEGINS!

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/politics ... index.html

Trump moves to ban 'bump stocks'

President Donald Trump said on Tuesday he has directed his attorney general to propose changes that would ban so-called bump stocks, which make it easier to fire rounds more quickly.

"Just a few moments ago I signed a memo directing the attorney general to propose regulations that ban all devices that turn legal weapons into machine guns," Trump said at a Medal of Valor event at the White House, addressing Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

"I expect these regulations to be finalized, Jeff, very soon," Trump said.

What's a machine gun? From the ATF:

National Firearms Act Definitions
Machinegun
26 U.S.C. § 5845(b)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

- Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
​
- The frame or receiver of any such weapon
​
- Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or

- Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... initions-0

How does a bump fire work? It moves the gun rather than manipulating the trigger, simulating rapid fire action. This is how bump fire stocks got around the ATF in the first place - the trigger is still one pull = one shot. All of which is a long way of saying that bump fire stocks never made a gun "fully auto" machine guns in the first place - it just made the stock bounce around enough to reset the trigger faster.

But I suppose that's just semantics anyway.

[nvr]

Here's another student describing how there was an active shooting drill that the students had been told to expect :

"They told us there were going to have people taken away and have them scream and ... like a drill, and it was so real ..."

watch at 3:51

So school administrators told the students there was to be a drill with realistic injuries and people screaming in pain (and police pointing guns as was mentioned in another account). What are the odds that this shooting happens exactly similar to this drill they were told to expect? (incidentally, there were drills before or on the actual days of 7/7 bombing, Sandy Hook and 9/11 and other mass casualty events that simulated the exact same events that occured) It's becoming more obvious that this event was manufactured explicitly to push for gun control (with young actors / student 'victims' acting as spokesmen). Disgusting. Our lawmakers need to know we won't stand for any vile attempts to encroach on the 2nd ammendment like this.

[JohnnyL]

What if you're wrong? What if this was in fact a set-up scenario involving a former mental health center patient who got scooped up by an agency to carry out this attack (with help as it's been reported) for the purpose of turning the public's opinion on gun control?
As unlikely as this sounds, I think it is just as unlikely for a young man to just head down to school and mow down his fellow students in cold blood.
In order to assure unchecked power and control, a tyrannical government needs to cut off access to arms by the people. It was interesting to see how teachers, students and all else involved, in their news interviews, brought up well-prepared points about the need for new laws on gun control. This was the day of or next day after that their peers were shot dead that they were bringing it up - it sounded out of place to make these points given raw emotions they must have been facing at the time.

I think it is probable that the same sort of dark-side government groups which demo'd building 7 as well as buildings 1, 2 on 911 to get control in the mid-east likely also planned and initiated most of these mass-shooting events to pave the way for gun control to suit their needs.

If this was an elaborate hoax then our problems are too big for your AR to solve.

The problem isn't; but, it WILL be when the AR's are gone.

[JohnnyL]

You see I told you it is possible to spin a conspiracy theory anyway one wants. Here in the inverse of my rather silly gunmakers theory below, offered up I might add with the same amount of evidence.

The difference between the two is that some people here want to believe the one below while everyone, including myself, should be able to see my example as clearly an exaggeration. But spread mine about in say a forum dedicated to gun control and I am willing to bet I would find believers in it.

There's definitely precedence for the scenario of a government-directed patsy. Take this case last year of a young man with schizophrenia who was entrapped by FBI in Oklahoma:

“What the public should be looking at is the fact that the FBI gave our son the means to make this happen. He has no job, no money, no vehicle, and no driver’s license, due to the fact that he is schizophrenic and we; his parents do everything we can possible to keep him safe and functional….. He has suffered through countless serious full-blown schizophrenic delusional episodes and he has been put in numerous mental hospitals since he was 16 years old. The FBI came and picked him up from our home, they gave him a vehicle, gave him a fake bomb, and every means to make this happen none of which he had access to on his own.

http://newsok.com/article/5560334

"We do not need to be bombarded by reporters who only want to omit important facts of this event. We understand the public wants to know how this could possibly happen. We simply ask them to look at the facts of the case and ask why the FBI made this happen."
-----The answer to EVERY staged/ planned event.

[Joel]

[Juliet]

There is often a cry and a hue around here for the police to have probable cause to make arrests. So are some of you now advocating thought crimes? Have you now abandoned probable cause?

Is there a difference between a thought crime and publicly stating the desire to shoot up a school, kill cops, and basically go out in a blaze of glory with your trusty rifle sitting next to you in a picture you post to social media?

I'd think there was a difference between the two. As per probable cause, how much more probable do you get than establishing ability, motive and the stated intent to commit a crime?

You've been/are in law enforcement, if I remember correctly. What say ye? At what point do you want to confront this kid: before or after the shooting?

So I can go online and make a name saying I am "so and so" and I am going to commit a crime. Sounds like a good way to frame someone if you ask me. I am still waiting to hear some actual evidence.