Rob Porter, Mormonism

[Arenera]

Well, this is interesting.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/09/politics ... index.html

I know a woman where the ward helped her escape the abusive husband.

[EmmaLee]

"He [her Bishop] said in no uncertain terms that, once you do this, it's public, and was I sure that wanted to jeopardize Rob's career?"

Just utterly sickening. Thank goodness these women were smart enough to seek help beyond their Bishops.

One of the counselors in our previous RS presidency referred to visiting teachers as "The Bruise Brigade" (watching out for other sisters in the ward who were being beaten by their husbands, apparently). I'd never heard that term before, but she made it sound like it was very common, and that's what everybody called visiting teachers in her Arizona ward. This all just makes me sad.

[AI2.0]

From the article;

Holderness said Porter emotionally and physically abused her, choked her repeatedly, and in one instance, punched her in the face, leaving her with a black eye. But she said it was hard to talk about her experiences with her bishop, especially with her husband sitting beside her.
Eventually, she told three bishops that Porter was "being physical," she said. She's not sure they understood. She could almost see one wondering, "What does that mean?" Holderness recalls.
It wasn't until she met with a professional counselor, Holderness said, that she was warned about the gravity of her situation.
"It was the first time I had someone say to me: This is very serious. You might not feel like your life is in danger now but this is very serious and choking is something that can become life-threatening."
Holderness later divorced Porter, against her bishops' advice, she said.

This is so disturbing. I think that the three Bishops must have been ignoring the promptings of the spirit to ask more questions. If she said he was 'being physical', it was time to ask for clarification. They failed her.

Also choking, punching--this should have been reported to the police, that's battery. If any Bishop had gotten enough clarification, this should have made him realize he HAD to report the domestic abuse going on.

Are we still so backward that we don't immediately condemn and shame the use of physical violence to control a spouse??

I'm sure that some Bishops would not have made this mistake, but these three blew it. I also don't believe any of the Bishops I've known would have counseled against divorcing a wife batterer. Also, making her feel guilty that it would hurt his career? Were they in Washington DC? Has the 'swamp' mentality affected the members of the church there as well?

[Zathura]

I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this. I have also spent a great amount of time discussing this with a few bishops of the ward this woman lived in. I think these bishops were great men, but I don’t know what or why or How but nothing was ever done and it has definitely tested the faith of this woman I’m referring to. She has suffered emotionally far more than physically and it has been one of the most difficult things for me to witness and see no action, no consequences. She hardly goes to church anymore, but has found comfort in different radio stations and stuff like that . This is something that has spanned for years through 4-5 bishops, only three of which I knew.

I believe this is a widespread issue. I don’t pretend to know why it exists or what the solution is, but it’s a real issue that affects Mormon women for years and even decades.

I hate to be so vague , I can give more details in a PM.

[True]

"He [her Bishop] said in no uncertain terms that, once you do this, it's public, and was I sure that wanted to jeopardize Rob's career?"

Just utterly sickening. Thank goodness these women were smart enough to seek help beyond their Bishops.

One of the counselors in our previous RS presidency referred to visiting teachers as "The Bruise Brigade" (watching out for other sisters in the ward who were being beaten by their husbands, apparently). I'd never heard that term before, but she made it sound like it was very common, and that's what everybody called visiting teachers in her Arizona ward. This all just makes me sad.

I live in AZ and have not found this in any of of the wards I have been in nor have any of my siblings or in-laws experiences anything like this. I’m sure it happens but it has never been part of my reality.

As far as bishops go, the biggest complaint I have heard is the bishop beleiving the wrong party (according to the teller of the story) in a divorce proceeding. From hearing repeated stories like this I have come to think that bishops are just people who do the best they can and like any counselor, do not have the full story and so often they give bad advice.

I’m trying to imagine my husband being a bishop and hearing that someone “got physical” and wondering what he would do. He hates conflict more than anything else in the world and I can’t imagine him asking for clarification. That is very vague. I think if it were more specific like: “he hits me” or “he chokes me” something may have been done. I have no clue. It just makes me not want to be bishop.

And now I want to take this opportunity to thank my blessed saint of a husband for being so nice and kind and generous and hard working. And while I’m at it I want to recognize all of you good men out there who get little or no recognition for being nice. Even if you do get recognition, or maybe your just sort of nice - you have some grumpy days - but you don’t hit anyone - WAY TO GO!!!

[EmmaLee]

"He [her Bishop] said in no uncertain terms that, once you do this, it's public, and was I sure that wanted to jeopardize Rob's career?"

Just utterly sickening. Thank goodness these women were smart enough to seek help beyond their Bishops.

One of the counselors in our previous RS presidency referred to visiting teachers as "The Bruise Brigade" (watching out for other sisters in the ward who were being beaten by their husbands, apparently). I'd never heard that term before, but she made it sound like it was very common, and that's what everybody called visiting teachers in her Arizona ward. This all just makes me sad.

I live in AZ and have not found this in any of of the wards I have been in nor have any of my siblings or in-laws experiences anything like this. I’m sure it happens but it has never been part of my reality.

That's good, I'm glad. But like I said, I'd never heard that term before either. I grew up in Phoenix; my siblings, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc. all live in the Mesa area (our family has lived there since the 1880's), and the RS presidency woman who said this is from Scottsdale. She would have no reason to lie, therefore, it must have been her experience in whatever ward(s) she lived in there.

As for Bishops, that is the last job I would want either. My husband has been a counselor in a couple of Bishoprics and that was hard enough. People need to remember that they are NOT marriage counselors (unless they are in their regular life, which most aren't), and if a woman is being battered in her marriage, her Bishop is probably the last person she should go to to report it - and that is not an insult to Bishops, it's just the reality. Nowhere in the job description in the D&C does it list "marriage counselor" under the duties of a Bishop, that I'm aware of. Anyway, this whole thing is just sad.

[abijah]

A nonmember friend of mine heard about this and read an article about it somewhere. He joked that maybe she would have got more attention from the bishops if she told them he drank coffee.

[Arenera]

Thank goodness for Porter's ex-wives. One of them, Colbie Holderness, provided pictures of the abuse she allegedly suffered at the hands of Porter immediately after they got married. The pictures show a grim Holderness with one very black eye. "The thing he would do most frequently," she said, "is throw me down on a bed and he would just put his body weight on me and he'd be yelling at me, but as he was yelling he'd be grinding an elbow or knee into my body to emphasize his anger."

Porter's second wife, Jennifer Willoughby, also feared Porter. She was forced to take out a temporary protective order in 2010 to keep Porter away from her. She also thinks Hicks should run from Porter as fast as she can. " If he hasn't already been abusive with Hope [Hicks], he will."

[David13]

What makes women marry these kind of men in the first place? Why do nice guys go home single and the jerks are always the ones who get married?

I can't answer for everybody, nor particularly for the members of the church, but there are numerous complexes and experiences that predispose women to "bad boy" type men (or boys).
A lot of them had an abusive father, and that's the style they are used to.
The "nice guy" is boring, and doesn't show all the feverish emotion toward them.
Some of it's rebellion. The father was a nice guy, but they are attracted to and intrigued by the guy with "rough edges".

I remember one 'urban' lady telling my wife, "when you picks your man, that's your man", and thus they have a sort of Tammy Wynette "Stand By Your Man" attitude about it.

Isn't there a vow, "for better or for worse"?

Probably a million reasons, even many reasons in any one particular case.
dc

In Porter's case, he was an up and comer. On the way up. An achiever. After all he ended up working for the President in the White House. I know part of the good advice I have been given is ... stick with the winners.

(Guess what happens if you stick with the losers ...)

[h_p]

A nonmember friend of mine heard about this and read an article about it somewhere. He joked that maybe she would have got more attention from the bishops if she told them he drank coffee.

Or if she'd clearly told her bishop what was going on. She said herself that they weren't understanding what she was hinting at. Not sure why the bishops are being blamed here. Actually, I do. CNN can't pass up a chance at getting a dig in against the "patriarchy."

[brianj]

What makes women marry these kind of men in the first place? Why do nice guys go home single and the jerks are always the ones who get married?

One reason is because women want a challenge, want someone they can conquer or fix. Another reason, as previously stated, is that nice guys are perceived as boring.

Women can be very skilled liars, particularly adept at lying to themselves. Therefore, don't pay attention to what women say they want; pay attention to what kind of guy actually gets their attention and interest. And whatever you do, never take advice from a woman about dating women. Since women will tell themselves and you they want one thing, but respond negatively when given what they want, their advice is generally bad advice.

[djinwa]

"He [her Bishop] said in no uncertain terms that, once you do this, it's public, and was I sure that wanted to jeopardize Rob's career?"

Just utterly sickening. Thank goodness these women were smart enough to seek help beyond their Bishops.

One of the counselors in our previous RS presidency referred to visiting teachers as "The Bruise Brigade" (watching out for other sisters in the ward who were being beaten by their husbands, apparently). I'd never heard that term before, but she made it sound like it was very common, and that's what everybody called visiting teachers in her Arizona ward. This all just makes me sad.

I live in AZ and have not found this in any of of the wards I have been in nor have any of my siblings or in-laws experiences anything like this. I’m sure it happens but it has never been part of my reality.

As far as bishops go, the biggest complaint I have heard is the bishop beleiving the wrong party (according to the teller of the story) in a divorce proceeding. From hearing repeated stories like this I have come to think that bishops are just people who do the best they can and like any counselor, do not have the full story and so often they give bad advice.

I’m trying to imagine my husband being a bishop and hearing that someone “got physical” and wondering what he would do. He hates conflict more than anything else in the world and I can’t imagine him asking for clarification. That is very vague. I think if it were more specific like: “he hits me” or “he chokes me” something may have been done. I have no clue. It just makes me not want to be bishop.

And now I want to take this opportunity to thank my blessed saint of a husband for being so nice and kind and generous and hard working. And while I’m at it I want to recognize all of you good men out there who get little or no recognition for being nice. Even if you do get recognition, or maybe your just sort of nice - you have some grumpy days - but you don’t hit anyone - WAY TO GO!!!

You might also want to thank the sisters that don't hit their husbands. Why is it that abusive women rarely make the news?

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc ... ner-abuse/

SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.

[Alaris]

What makes women marry these kind of men in the first place? Why do nice guys go home single and the jerks are always the ones who get married?

Jerks are often good providers. This guy's career was doing just fine right up until this point.

[Fiannan]

A nonmember friend of mine heard about this and read an article about it somewhere. He joked that maybe she would have got more attention from the bishops if she told them he drank coffee.

Or if she'd clearly told her bishop what was going on. She said herself that they weren't understanding what she was hinting at. Not sure why the bishops are being blamed here. Actually, I do. CNN can't pass up a chance at getting a dig in against the "patriarchy."

CNN made this a "male" thing when they wrote about our clergy being all male. Just had to note that, didn't they? And it is strange that there have been stories about sexual harassment in Hollywood but nobody mentions the religion of any of the alleged perpetrators, and no mention of Bill Clinton's religion either, or the religion of any of the professional athletes who have been involved in abuse scandals.

[abijah]

Or if she'd clearly told her bishop what was going on. She said herself that they weren't understanding what she was hinting at. Not sure why the bishops are being blamed here. Actually, I do. CNN can't pass up a chance at getting a dig in against the "patriarchy."

I agree with you. The patriarchy, true as it is, does put the woman in the control of the man, but I reckon this sort of unrighteous dominion is something God takes very serious.

[abijah]

Overall there seems so much less
love and trust between the sexes. Too long men have abused their wives in whatever manner, and it’s only getting worse.

What’s more is this recent sexual harrasment craze, which I’m sure is valid in many cases, but it seems some women see it as a tool for obtaining attention or power rather than seeking help. Sexual harrasment toward women has always occurred at the hands of evil men. It’s only been lately that many women are brandishing it as their own weapon, which won’t help womanhood any more than the feminist movement.

[Fiannan]

Overall there seems so much less
love and trust between the sexes. Too long men have abused their wives in whatever manner, and it’s only getting worse.

What’s more is this recent sexual harrasment craze, which I’m sure is valid in many cases, but it seems some women see it as a tool for obtaining attention or power rather than seeking help. Sexual harrasment toward women has always occurred at the hands of evil men. It’s only been lately that many women are brandishing it as their own weapon, which won’t help womanhood any more than the feminist movement.

One wonders if things were better when women had the power...back before the Flood.

[AI2.0]

A nonmember friend of mine heard about this and read an article about it somewhere. He joked that maybe she would have got more attention from the bishops if she told them he drank coffee.

Or if she'd clearly told her bishop what was going on. She said herself that they weren't understanding what she was hinting at. Not sure why the bishops are being blamed here. Actually, I do. CNN can't pass up a chance at getting a dig in against the "patriarchy."

I don't think it's just CNN, though they are certainly taking advantage of the opportunity offered them. These Bishops essentially dropped the ball.

I felt the Bishops deserved criticism for glossing over the problems, and the one who told his wife she'd be ruining his career. I praise them for suggesting counseling, that was smart and the one wife finally figured out that this kind of behavior by her husband was not acceptable when the Counselor was apprised.

My husband served as a Bishop. He said that in these kinds of cases, if you suspect abuse, you call the church's law firm and consult with them, you don't ignore it. It's apparent that since the church has zero tolerance for physical abuse, these Bishops did not do that, especially the one who didn't want to see Porter's career damaged. That Bishop does have to take responsibility for not nipping this in the Bud years ago and being more 'fearful of men' and worldly concerns in performing his responsibilities.

[Fiannan]

I don't think it's just CNN, though they are certainly taking advantage of the opportunity offered them. These Bishops essentially dropped the ball.

I have seen bishops who have apparently failed to take the necessary step, in one case a teenage female who molested some little boys in the ward. However, has the man in the article been convicted? Just curious.

[iWriteStuff]

"He [her Bishop] said in no uncertain terms that, once you do this, it's public, and was I sure that wanted to jeopardize Rob's career?"

Just utterly sickening. Thank goodness these women were smart enough to seek help beyond their Bishops.

One of the counselors in our previous RS presidency referred to visiting teachers as "The Bruise Brigade" (watching out for other sisters in the ward who were being beaten by their husbands, apparently). I'd never heard that term before, but she made it sound like it was very common, and that's what everybody called visiting teachers in her Arizona ward. This all just makes me sad.

Wow, how naive I have been.... and here I was sitting in EQ yesterday wondering why they kept saying "the bishop needs to know what's going on in homes". Well, let's see: usually we eat some dinner. We play with our kids, read them scripture stories, and say bedtime prayers. Does the bishop really need a play by play on that?

I guess "bruise brigade" implies all is not fun and games and scripture stories. I've just never seen that before.

[thisisspartaaa]

We place too much emphasis on bishops IMO. They are just as fragile as the rest of us.

Ive been in wards where the Bishop was just a jerk (not my opinion but one held by the ward). I’ve had one bishop commit suicide and another highly successful business man but wasn’t successful with his marriage (divorced). I’ve also had other bishops with children that have since apostatized from the church and even some in prison - far from picture perfect families.

They aren’t perfect and will make mistakes just like anyone else.

[h_p]

I felt the Bishops deserved criticism for glossing over the problems, and the one who told his wife she'd be ruining his career. I praise them for suggesting counseling, that was smart and the one wife finally figured out that this kind of behavior by her husband was not acceptable when the Counselor was apprised.

My husband served as a Bishop. He said that in these kinds of cases, if you suspect abuse, you call the church's law firm and consult with them, you don't ignore it. It's apparent that since the church has zero tolerance for physical abuse, these Bishops did not do that, especially the one who didn't want to see Porter's career damaged. That Bishop does have to take responsibility for not nipping this in the Bud years ago and being more 'fearful of men' and worldly concerns in performing his responsibilities.

First, I agree, the one who pressed her NOT to report was wrong.

But as best I can tell, the other bishops didn't suspect abuse because she was purposely being vague. She said that herself. I would imagine most people are like me, though: if there's something important I want another person to understand, and I'm just hinting at it, and I can tell they're not getting it, I repeat it more clearly. If I'm in a place where I can't be clear, I pull the person aside privately, and explain until they do.

The article makes it sound like this woman figured all she needed to do is use her female telepathy and if the man didn't pick up on the brain waves, it's his fault. My wife learned within the first year of our marriage that men aren't mind readers. I guess it took this lady a little longer.

She couldn't pick up the phone and call the police herself? Why, in this world of female empowerment, would she feel like she had to sit back and wait for a man to take action?

Just to be clear, from the article:

But she said it was hard to talk about her experiences with her bishop, especially with her husband sitting beside her.
Eventually, she told three bishops that Porter was "being physical," she said. She's not sure they understood. She could almost see one wondering, "What does that mean?" Holderness recalls.

Bishops aren't professional counselors, and shouldn't be expected to be. Did she really suffer through this over 3 bishop administrations, waiting for one who could clue in to her hints?

[sushi_chef]

`
had been unhappy at his unconcious level, too much over-parented, and then church environ?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Porter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_B._Porter