Breaking the Rules

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:10 am
The daily grind is ordained of heaven:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
What's that saying? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.
I think it's less the concern of having to work (who doesn't like having something useful to do?), it's more about the nature of the work. If your daily grind consists of selling widgets to people who may or may not really need them, calculating the profit and loss of a shady organization, processing insurance claims, or completing endless account reconciliations, then life can seem like a tedious process of going nowhere fast, using up the best years of your life fulfilling someone else's purpose rather than adding real value to the world.

Nothing against "careers", as such. But I'd much rather be building Zion or performing a task that makes life better rather than simply upholding the kingdom of Babylon. Adam, cast off from the Garden of Eden, certainly toiled by the sweat of his brow to provide for his family. I doubt he ever felt unfulfilled by such a task because there was a direct connection between his efforts and the livelihood of his family, not to mention the task of "quickening" the soil is an honorable one and of a godly origin. His life had a purpose, but the work it took to sustain his family also didn't diminish or take away from his primary focus - returning to live with God.

What if Adam had spent his days as a used donkey salesman? I doubt he could have made it 930 years without a severe case of depression.

Again, nothing against careers. They are useful in that they pay the bills. But sometimes, in the midst of the daily commute and the long hours spent at a desk, one begins to wonder if this was how we were meant to spend our lives or whether there might be a greater purpose we are somehow missing out on.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

iWriteStuff wrote:
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:10 am
The daily grind is ordained of heaven:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
What's that saying? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.
I think it's less the concern of having to work (who doesn't like having something useful to do?), it's more about the nature of the work. If your daily grind consists of selling widgets to people who may or may not really need them, calculating the profit and loss of a shady organization, processing insurance claims, or completing endless account reconciliations, then life can seem like a tedious process of going nowhere fast, using up the best years of your life fulfilling someone else's purpose rather than adding real value to the world.

People in times past would have killed for a 40 hour workweek which supplied all their needs. We have more free time than any generation that has lived. So use it wisely. I'd rather sell widgets than till the ground. How about calculating profits and loss for a non-shady organization? Getting this right is a valuable task so that resources aren't wasted. "28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?" I work in insurance which provides a valuable service in times of catastrophe.

Nothing against "careers", as such. But I'd much rather be building Zion or performing a task that makes life better rather than simply upholding the kingdom of Babylon. Adam, cast off from the Garden of Eden, certainly toiled by the sweat of his brow to provide for his family. I doubt he ever felt unfulfilled by such a task because there was a direct connection between his efforts and the livelihood of his family, not to mention the task of "quickening" the soil is an honorable one and of a godly origin. His life had a purpose, but the work it took to sustain his family also didn't diminish or take away from his primary focus - returning to live with God.

Why does a "career" have to take away from building Zion. "19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted." If Adam never felt unfulfillment, I doubt he was human. We all feel it from time to time. I don't buy the idea that farming it the godly occupation. I think there are many endless occupations/opportunites for honest work, voluntarily entered into.


What if Adam had spent his days as a used donkey salesman? I doubt he could have made it 930 years without a severe case of depression.

Nothing wrong with being a used donkey salesman. No doubt people certainly need them and becoming an outlet for that need is a great service.

Again, nothing against careers. They are useful in that they pay the bills. But sometimes, in the midst of the daily commute and the long hours spent at a desk, one begins to wonder if this was how we were meant to spend our lives or whether there might be a greater purpose we are somehow missing out on.

I think you may be suffering from an undue romanticism of a bygone era.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:52 am I think you may be suffering from an undue romanticism of a bygone era.

I romanticize nothing. I merely wonder how much more could be done in building Zion if we weren't so busy building Babylon.

Do they need insurance in Zion? Do they need used donkey salesmen? I don't doubt some form of accounting is still necessary, but what about tanning salons and botox clinics?

If we're preparing for eternity, wouldn't our efforts be better spent acquiring skills that will be used there?

Back to my original point: After all our efforts in building Babylon, Babylon will not sustain us in our time of need. Does that change the way you approach your life? Or do we just plod along and hope for the best?

I like marc's perspective because I think that could be any of us - we are all dependent on God on a day to day basis for everything we have and are. So why not make that our focus? Why get so preoccupied with getting ahead?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10441
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by marc »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:10 am
marc wrote: February 8th, 2018, 4:49 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 7th, 2018, 9:13 pm For me, I hope some day to escape the daily grind.
Amen and amen!
The daily grind is ordained of heaven:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
What's that saying? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.
True, yet Adam was given all things freely to sweat freely free from the extortions of man and corrupt governments. Man was given free dominion over the Earth and has taken ownership of it in order to bring others into captivity. That is not what the Lord intended. That is what I wish to escape. I don't mind sowing and tilling and working to provide for my family. I just want to do it the way God intended, with only weeds and thorns to afflict me and not man.

User avatar
Lyster
captain of 100
Posts: 157
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by Lyster »

I see what you're saying, iWrite. I envision those things as well.

I was well on my way to becoming that guy, even with a family, until my health changed.

To all, be grateful for the ability to work.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:10 am
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:52 am I think you may be suffering from an undue romanticism of a bygone era.

I romanticize nothing. I merely wonder how much more could be done in building Zion if we weren't so busy building Babylon. You mean if you weren't so busy working? So change.

Do they need insurance in Zion? Do they need used donkey salesmen? I don't doubt some form of accounting is still necessary, but what about tanning salons and botox clinics? Who knows. What you or I may think is probably is off the mark. I think most seem to view it as some sort of idyllic utopia. You sound a lot like Nibs here, who tending to throw manure on those who provided different goods and services than he. I think the first that should go should be the ivory tower professors.

If we're preparing for eternity, wouldn't our efforts be better spent acquiring skills that will be used there? So do it.

Back to my original point: After all our efforts in building Babylon, Babylon will not sustain us in our time of need. Does that change the way you approach your life? Or do we just plod along and hope for the best? Yep, dust thou art, dust thou shalt become. He causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust, He also allows sh!t to happen to all of us.

I like marc's perspective because I think that could be any of us - we are all dependent on God on a day to day basis for everything we have and are. So why not make that our focus? Why get so preoccupied with getting ahead? So do what marc does. Does marc's template have to be everybody's template? I'm not preoccupied with getting ahead. Why are you?

User avatar
David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7083
Location: Utah

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by David13 »

When I hear someone say "I have to go to work ..." I always correct them.
"You get to go to work."
"There are many people out there who would like to work, and don't have any work."

Around here many people work two or three jobs, or more. I suppose that's because so many places offer only part time work, but people need and like more.
You have to have a good house around here, even with a so so house you will pay $600 to $800 a month for heat.

Ah, again I'm reminded of a song. Let's all sing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whnn9ReUV04
dc

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:32 amSo do it.
How do you know I'm not?

Side note: a good half of my family have been teachers and professors. If we're going to toss them all off a building, you can expect to find me at the bottom with a net.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

marc wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:15 am
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 7:10 am
marc wrote: February 8th, 2018, 4:49 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 7th, 2018, 9:13 pm For me, I hope some day to escape the daily grind.
Amen and amen!
The daily grind is ordained of heaven:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
What's that saying? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.
True, yet Adam was given all things freely to sweat freely free from the extortions of man and corrupt governments.
Extortions of man and corrupt governments is one and the same. I'm wondering what this has to do with used donkey salesmen. I think we are much closer to seeing the true babylon and great and abom church when viewed through the lens of extortions of man and corrupt governments versus voluntary peaceful exchange and associations.

From Murray Rothbard's preface to Conceived in Liberty, his history of colonial and revolutionary America.
https://mises.org/library/conceived-liberty-2
My own basic perspective on the history of man, and a fortiori on the history of the United States, is to place central importance on the great conflict which is eternally waged between Liberty and Power, a conflict, by the way, which was seen with crystal clarity by the American revolutionaries of the eighteenth century. I see the liberty of the individual not only as a great moral good in itself (or, with Lord Acton, as the highest political good), but also as the necessary condition for the flowering of all the other goods that mankind cherishes: moral virtue, civilization, the arts and sciences, economic prosperity. Out of liberty, then, stem the glories of civilized life. But liberty has always been threatened by the encroachments of power, power which seeks to suppress, control, cripple, tax, and exploit the fruits of liberty and production. Power, then, the enemy of liberty, is consequently the enemy of all the other goods and fruits of civilization that mankind holds dear. And power is almost always centered in and focused on that central repository of power and violence: the state. With Albert Jay Nock, the twentieth century American political philosopher, I see history as centrally a race and conflict between “social power”— the productive consequence of voluntary interactions among men—and state power. In those eras of history when liberty—social power—has managed to race ahead of state power and control, the country and even mankind have flourished. In those eras when state power has managed to catch up with or surpass social power, mankind suffers and declines.

For decades, American historians have quarreled about “conflict” or “consensus” as the guiding leitmotif of the American past. Clearly, I belong in the “conflict” rather than the “consensus” camp, with the proviso that I see the central conflict as not between classes (social or economic), or between ideologies, but between Power and Liberty, State and Society. The social or ideological conflicts have been ancillary to the central one, which concerns: Who will control the state, and what power will the state exercise over the citizenry? To take a common example from American history, there are in my view no inherent conflicts between merchants and farmers in the free market. On the contrary, in the market, the sphere of liberty, the interests of merchants and farmers are harmonious, with each buying and selling the products of the other. Conflicts arise only through the attempts of various groups of merchants or farmers to seize control over the machinery of government and to use it to privilege themselves at the expense of the others. It is only through and by state action that “class” conflicts can ever arise.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:44 am
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:32 amSo do it.
How do you know I'm not? Than why the fretting?

Side note: a good half of my family have been teachers and professors. If we're going to toss them all off a building, you can expect to find me at the bottom with a net. My comment was tongue in cheek of course. And I never suggested to toss them off a building.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:51 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:44 am
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:32 amSo do it.
How do you know I'm not? Than why the fretting? Because sometimes I need the reminder who I'm working for and why. It seemed a useful reflection, but perhaps not to all.

Side note: a good half of my family have been teachers and professors. If we're going to toss them all off a building, you can expect to find me at the bottom with a net. My comment was tongue in cheek of course. And I never suggested to toss them off a building. If you contrast the number of "Get Rich Quick" books circulating in UT vs the number of books advocating consecration, I think you will find folks like Nibley are the much needed minority - a lone voice in the wilderness, as it were, proclaiming the opposite. You may not enjoy hearing what he has to say on the subject, but I find comfort knowing there is a doctrinal element to the ideal he proclaims. To me it means the true sentiments of my heart aren't too far off the mark. But to each their own.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

No doubt correctives are needed. And I enjoy hearing what he has to say. Doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING he has to say.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10441
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by marc »

ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:48 am Extortions of man and corrupt governments is one and the same...
Yes, I know. I'm also not opposed to free exchange as you put it. The singular point that I am trying to make is that I desire to labor for my bread as the Lord intended, free from any kind of extortion by anybody. Just leave me alone to work the land in my little corner of the Earth to provide for my family and to give whatever excess I have away if I choose. If you want to visit me and offer to trade something for my bread, that is fine. Just don't come and try and tell me I owe you (generally speaking) some kind of tribute or tax or tariff for my goods or services or property over which I am a steward.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8014
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by ajax »

marc wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:14 am
ajax wrote: February 8th, 2018, 8:48 am Extortions of man and corrupt governments is one and the same...
Yes, I know. I'm also not opposed to free exchange as you put it. The singular point that I am trying to make is that I desire to labor for my bread as the Lord intended, free from any kind of extortion by anybody. Just leave me alone to work the land in my little corner of the Earth to provide for my family and to give whatever excess I have away if I choose. If you want to visit me and offer to trade something for my bread, that is fine. Just don't come and try and tell me I owe you (generally speaking) some kind of tribute or tax or tariff for my goods or services or property over which I am a steward.
I agree with that.

therealoptout
captain of 10
Posts: 13
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by therealoptout »

What if there was not only a way, but it was proven and the way fulfilled every point needed to prepare a Zion people while freeing them from the flaxen cords of Babylon?

There is. And it's better than I could have imagined. I'd love to meet anyone who feels it's time to awake and arise.. or who needs some resources to start seeing what's possible.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

therealoptout wrote: February 8th, 2018, 4:59 pm What if there was not only a way, but it was proven and the way fulfilled every point needed to prepare a Zion people while freeing them from the flaxen cords of Babylon?

There is. And it's better than I could have imagined. I'd love to meet anyone who feels it's time to awake and arise.. or who needs some resources to start seeing what's possible.
Alright, I'll admit I'm curious. Whatcha got?

EmmaLee
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10890

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by EmmaLee »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 9th, 2018, 5:36 am
therealoptout wrote: February 8th, 2018, 4:59 pm What if there was not only a way, but it was proven and the way fulfilled every point needed to prepare a Zion people while freeing them from the flaxen cords of Babylon?

There is. And it's better than I could have imagined. I'd love to meet anyone who feels it's time to awake and arise.. or who needs some resources to start seeing what's possible.
Alright, I'll admit I'm curious. Whatcha got?
viewtopic.php?t=47151

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Breaking the Rules

Post by iWriteStuff »

EmmaLee wrote: February 9th, 2018, 2:54 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: February 9th, 2018, 5:36 am
therealoptout wrote: February 8th, 2018, 4:59 pm What if there was not only a way, but it was proven and the way fulfilled every point needed to prepare a Zion people while freeing them from the flaxen cords of Babylon?

There is. And it's better than I could have imagined. I'd love to meet anyone who feels it's time to awake and arise.. or who needs some resources to start seeing what's possible.
Alright, I'll admit I'm curious. Whatcha got?
viewtopic.php?t=47151
Intriguing...... I wish we had that in CO.

Post Reply