undecided premortal spirits

[JandD6572]

a question was brought up in our investigators glass Sunday last, spirit children in the premortal world who made no choice at all for whatever reason, not to follow satan or want to come to earth (if there was such a case) what would their eternal outcome be? i know there would be no increase or eternal progression, but any idea what their eternal reward would be?

[inho]

a question was brought up in our investigators glass Sunday last, spirit children in the premortal world who made no choice at all for whatever reason, not to follow satan or want to come to earth (if there was such a case) what would their eternal outcome be? i know there would be no increase or eternal progression, but any idea what their eternal reward would be?

What makes you think that such spirits exist?

There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , 1:65-66.

[Fiannan]

a question was brought up in our investigators glass Sunday last, spirit children in the premortal world who made no choice at all for whatever reason, not to follow satan or want to come to earth (if there was such a case) what would their eternal outcome be? i know there would be no increase or eternal progression, but any idea what their eternal reward would be?

I suppose they had to come to earth anyway. Might explain the #NeverTrumpers. Not exactly liberal, not exactly conservative; still pretty obnoxious.

[Sirius]

I don't think there could be a case like that. I may be wrong, but one plan or the other would have to be chosen. If you didn't want to come to earth and receive a body, you rejected Father's plan (and ironically are here anyway, without a body, and miserable). If you did want to come to earth, receive a body and become like our Parents, you rejected Lucifer's plan. There were two choices presented, go or don't. Progress or digress. Pretty straight forward in my opinion.

[Alaris]

a question was brought up in our investigators glass Sunday last, spirit children in the premortal world who made no choice at all for whatever reason, not to follow satan or want to come to earth (if there was such a case) what would their eternal outcome be? i know there would be no increase or eternal progression, but any idea what their eternal reward would be?

What makes you think that such spirits exist?

There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , 1:65-66.

Perhaps the undecided soul was more the soul who took a little longer on the multiple choice question and dispassionately selected option A

Would you rather:
A. Receive a degree of salvation, possibly eternal life
B. Go to hell

[Lizzy60]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

[Arenera]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

Tare, Tare, where have you gone? Far from the arms that held you tenderly...

[JandD6572]

so then a spirit child could not say to heavenly father, he or she does not except satans plan but excepts his (Gods) plan, and still say that they would rather remain a spirit child eternally? one would think that that very same free agency that exist here that also was there would then safely assume maybe there were troubling spirits that did not want to take that chance to become lost and rather stay as a spirit? i am asking this as a serious question, so please leave out the politics. thank you.

[Alaris]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

The three groups now on Earth that certainly align to the three you mentioned.

Israel - Ham
Gentiles - Japeth
Cursed lineage - Ham

There is one way to join Israel.

[brianj]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

[Lizzy60]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

It's an uncomfortable doctrine, I know. We want to believe we can change our destiny, and from our limited point of view, people often do, but God knows who we are (even is we don't, yet) and He knows His sheep, and He knows who will hear His voice when He calls to them.

How come Alma the Younger repented completely when hit up the side of the head by the Angel, and Laman and Lemuel never changed their evil ways when they had more chances than Alma the Younger?

Why did Christ tell the Church leaders that their father was Satan, because they didn't know who He, Christ, was? Because He knows His sheep, and He will not lose even one.

We don't know who is a wheat or tare, and won't until judgement day, or until God reveals to us individually that we are His.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

[Lizzy60]

From John 8

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[Lizzy60]

There are two groups of people here on Earth. Wheat, whose Father is God, and tares, whose father is the Devil.

Jesus taught this very plainly, both in a parable, and in direct language to the scribes and Pharisees who were asking who He was, and what His lineage was.

[brianj]

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

The problem is with your metaphor. We aren't born wheat or tares, we become wheat or tares through our choices. If we were to use your metaphor, we would have to accept predestination. If you are either born a wheat or a tare, you are either going to the Celestial Kingdom or not regardless of what you do because you are either a wheat or a tare at the moment of birth.

[Lizzy60]

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

The problem is with your metaphor. We aren't born wheat or tares, we become wheat or tares through our choices. If we were to use your metaphor, we would have to accept predestination. If you are either born a wheat or a tare, you are either going to the Celestial Kingdom or not regardless of what you do because you are either a wheat or a tare at the moment of birth.

Why did Christ use a flawed metaphor? It's not my metaphor -- it's His.

Yes, it's a hard doctrine, but God absolutely knows who we are, and what choices we will make. He told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was in his mother's womb. How could He choose a 14-yr-old boy to restore the Gospel, if He didn't know what Joseph would do? If He knows these two, just for example (there are many others) and if He knew the Pharisees in John 8 had the devil for a father, how can any of us be a mystery to Him? We are only mysteries to ourselves and other mortals, but not to God. We are proving to ourselves what we will do here in mortality. He, God, is omniscient. He knows all.

[brianj]

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

The problem is with your metaphor. We aren't born wheat or tares, we become wheat or tares through our choices. If we were to use your metaphor, we would have to accept predestination. If you are either born a wheat or a tare, you are either going to the Celestial Kingdom or not regardless of what you do because you are either a wheat or a tare at the moment of birth.

Why did Christ use a flawed metaphor? It's not my metaphor -- it's His.

Yes, it's a hard doctrine, but God absolutely knows who we are, and what choices we will make. He told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was in his mother's womb. How could He choose a 14-yr-old boy to restore the Gospel, if He didn't know what Joseph would do? If He knows these two, just for example (there are many others) and if He knew the Pharisees in John 8 had the devil for a father, how can any of us be a mystery to Him? We are only mysteries to ourselves and other mortals, but not to God. We are proving to ourselves what we will do here in mortality. He, God, is omniscient. He knows all.

Maybe I see this parable differently from you. Taking this as literally as you do, children of Satan would be on Earth along with children of God. Children of Satan (who were cast out of Heaven) would be here in bodies, which goes against scripture and modern prophecy. Before writing my interpretation I went to lds.org and had a look. A statement in the Doctrine and Covenants student manual for section 86 puts it very well: "The tares are children of the wicked one (those who follow the enticements of Satan)."

We are not born wheat or tares, as I previously said. We become wheat or tares when we make choices and decide to follow Christ or Satan. Using the parable, you and I are soil. Jesus Christ is sowing wheat seeds and Satan is sowing tares. We become wheat or tares when we choose to nurture a wheat or tare seed within ourselves.

[Lizzy60]

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

The problem is with your metaphor. We aren't born wheat or tares, we become wheat or tares through our choices. If we were to use your metaphor, we would have to accept predestination. If you are either born a wheat or a tare, you are either going to the Celestial Kingdom or not regardless of what you do because you are either a wheat or a tare at the moment of birth.

Why did Christ use a flawed metaphor? It's not my metaphor -- it's His.

Yes, it's a hard doctrine, but God absolutely knows who we are, and what choices we will make. He told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was in his mother's womb. How could He choose a 14-yr-old boy to restore the Gospel, if He didn't know what Joseph would do? If He knows these two, just for example (there are many others) and if He knew the Pharisees in John 8 had the devil for a father, how can any of us be a mystery to Him? We are only mysteries to ourselves and other mortals, but not to God. We are proving to ourselves what we will do here in mortality. He, God, is omniscient. He knows all.

Maybe I see this parable differently from you. Taking this as literally as you do, children of Satan would be on Earth along with children of God. Children of Satan (who were cast out of Heaven) would be here in bodies, which goes against scripture and modern prophecy. Before writing my interpretation I went to lds.org and had a look. A statement in the Doctrine and Covenants student manual for section 86 puts it very well: "The tares are children of the wicked one (those who follow the enticements of Satan)."

We are not born wheat or tares, as I previously said. We become wheat or tares when we make choices and decide to follow Christ or Satan. Using the parable, you and I are soil. Jesus Christ is sowing wheat seeds and Satan is sowing tares. We become wheat or tares when we choose to nurture a wheat or tare seed within ourselves.

Have you inquired of the Lord? Have you asked Him if He knows who you are, and whether you are one of His?
Again, how can any one of us measly mortals be a mystery to the King of Kings, the Creater of Heaven and Earth, and everything in them? How long do you believe God has known you?

Your belief, that we are soil, is the same as tabular rasa, meaning clean slate. That would mean that you, me, Herod, Abraham, and Joseph Smith were all born here on earth as equals. That defies everything in the scriptures as well as common sense.

[brianj]

Have you inquired of the Lord? Have you asked Him if He knows who you are, and whether you are one of His?
Again, how can any one of us measly mortals be a mystery to the King of Kings, the Creater of Heaven and Earth, and everything in them? How long do you believe God has known you?

Your belief, that we are soil, is the same as tabular rasa, meaning clean slate. That would mean that you, me, Herod, Abraham, and Joseph Smith were all born here on earth as equals. That defies everything in the scriptures as well as common sense.

I don't believe I am going to the Celestial Kingdom right now. But I feel that I am on the right path, that as long as I continue on this path I will get there. This obviously means that I understand that I can fall.

And you're forgetting something. Head to the beach. Sow some seeds just above the highest astronomical tide line and see what happens. Meanwhile, I'll go someplace known to have really fertile soil and sow some seeds then see what happens. What can you predict?

We're all soil. Jesus Christ and Satan are sowing their respective seeds. President Oaks addressed this, referencing the Parable of the Sower in the April 2015 General Conference:

The different soils on which the seeds fell represent different ways in which mortals receive and follow these teachings. Thus the seeds that “fell by the way side” (Mark 4:4) have not reached mortal soil where they might possibly grow. They are like teachings that fall upon a heart hardened or unprepared.... The parable of the sower warns us of circumstances and attitudes that can keep anyone who has received the seed of the gospel message from bringing forth a goodly harvest.

Even without Elder Oaks' talk, if you consider the Parable of the Sower along with the Parable of the Tares instead of in a vacuum, does the meaning change for you?

[Lizzy60]

So are you saying that God does not know what kind of soil you are? Do you believe that The Eternal Father does not know who will ultimately be exalted, and who will receive a lesser reward?

[inho]

one would think that that very same free agency that exist here that also was there would then

Even now with our agency, we cannot choose all the consequences of our actions.

[Lizzy60]

As a mortal parent, I see one of my children active in the church, while another has decided he doesn't believe in religion. Am I now capable of rendering final judgment on them? Of course not. I don't know if the wayward child is an Alma the Younger or a Lemuel.

But, I know that God knows. So if the wayward child is wheat, God will find him. And when God calls to him, he will recognize the Lord's voice. Because that what Jesus specifically said, and I believe Him. His sheep have been given to Him, and He will not lose a single one.

[inho]

Why did Christ use a flawed metaphor?

Almost all parables include elements that are not necessary for the interpretation. The parable of the sower is not really about sowing, but about harvest.

[Lizzy60]

We are just as capable of choosing what kind of soil we are, as we are capable of choosing whether we are a wheat seed or a tare seed, or whether we are born a sheep or a goat.
We had agency for eons of time before this mortal probation. We made choices, and we continue to make choices, and God is so intimately knowledgeable of each one of us, that He does know the outcome, but we don't (unless it is revealed to us).

[scottja]

God does know us. We are here in this proving ground so that we can learn about ourselves, learn who we are. To learn beyond a shadow of a doubt how much faith we have, and if we truely will follow all of God's commandments.
To me it makes no difference if this Earth is seeded with Good and Evil physical beings, as part of our test , or if we all started out as ones who chose Father's plan, and some of us have succumbed the evil which only has influence over us.
It's a test and everybody around me are actors and extras in my test.

[Sirius]

There are three groups of spirits. There is the group that chose to follow Lucifer and to not come to earth to receive a body. Then there are the wheat that Christ has sown here, also known as His sheep, which are numbered unto Him, and of which none will be lost. Then there are the tares that the devil has sown on the earth, who will eventually reject Christ, and will go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.

EVERYBODY born on Earth comes from the wheat. Most people just become blinded.

You may benefit from reading the parable of the wheat and tares. There is no botanical way that a wheat seed that is planted can grow into a tare. Just like a sheep cannot turn into a goat.

It's an uncomfortable doctrine, I know. We want to believe we can change our destiny, and from our limited point of view, people often do, but God knows who we are (even is we don't, yet) and He knows His sheep, and He knows who will hear His voice when He calls to them.

How come Alma the Younger repented completely when hit up the side of the head by the Angel, and Laman and Lemuel never changed their evil ways when they had more chances than Alma the Younger?

Why did Christ tell the Church leaders that their father was Satan, because they didn't know who He, Christ, was? Because He knows His sheep, and He will not lose even one.

We don't know who is a wheat or tare, and won't until judgement day, or until God reveals to us individually that we are His.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Lizzy60, thank you for your post. As I was reading it, a realization came to me that I hadn't entertained before, that fits the pattern of something else I have been reflecting on. God truly does know each of us perfectly.