Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

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Fiannan
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Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Fiannan »

Brigham Young once said it was better to be one step out of hell and heading to heaven than one step out of heaven and heading to hell. Judging from where the Church is today where are we, and I mean as a collective body? Feel free to provide evidence to advance your view.

Ezra
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Ezra »

This should be an interesting topic.

Onsdag
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Onsdag »

The Church is where it needs to be. There are a number of virgins, however, who need to quickly repent and mend their ways, otherwise they'll find it is they who have been deceived as they vainly beg to be let in to the marriage of the bride and bridegroom.

gardener4life
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by gardener4life »

You have to separate it into individually and collectively to answer this question. If you don't then you can accidentally confuse people.

If you only lump everyone into the same box then it doesn't give credit to those doing good and believing good, and staying true. By the same token there are people who aren't staying true. The leaders are staying true, because the system is to be called by revelation from the Lord, and so you generally will have good leaders nearly all the time time; but there are people like Judas and people like some of the people in Kirtland that turned their back on Joseph Smith when persecution started (and was engineered by them! This is also why I don't give a free pass for people that turned on Joseph Smith because yeah they suffered but many of them went right around and started or helped the persecution.)

SO why individually and collectively?

We need individual needs met. We need individual answers to prayers. We are individuals struggling to learn that Zion is a big beehive and not a single bee. But we need collectivness too, just like how penguins group together in the Antarctic area to survive! I had an inspiration with thinking how our times and how families help each other is just like how penguins survive the cold together. It's very real. I wish I could plant this thought in others in terms of ...I struggle to word it but feel how strong this collectiveness is and how it relates to why we have families. We all need families. We need the church and ordinances that are done by passed down organized priesthood authority. And part of why the priesthood authority is organized is so that people don't mess with or change the ordinances.

Note 1; It is in the D&C that the Lord will not take the priesthood again from the face of the Earth. (Amazing. Think how wonderful a blessing that is and what it means. What does the Spirit tell you about that?) D&C 138:44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people; Also see Daniel's dream of the stone rolling forth to fill the Earth; Old Testament; Daniel Chapter 2 & verse 44 around there.) (And not taking the priesthood again from the Earth is how the original apostasy occurred. So saying that is a big deal.) (It doesn't mean though that people won't be trying to hang on for dear life though; because there's this other scripture too; Mark 13:20 New Testament; And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.)

Also consider; “This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:31). If the church were out of favor then how could both JS-Matthew and normal Matthew Chapter 24's events happen? You also know that Christ wants to help and bless us to get back to him.

But it is possible there may be some cleaning up.

Helaman 15:3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them.



Some people who answer this are going to be bias against collectiveness.

For those that think you don't need church, those people forget that when you get to the spirit world after this life, the church has a role in replenishing families and helping them restructure and get back together. People forget this is what ordinances are and do for you. Ordinances aren't just about solo people. They have solo significance but also have family grouping significance. I think that this is why people who lost family members or didn't have chances to have families will have this worked out after this life. And your children come from somewhere before they get to you too. So the point of this is to show that we can't dismiss that we need collective organization, but individual loyalty and faith too. Collectiveness is also how we don't leave people behind like the poor. It can be hard to meet a chronic health issue alone for example, and there's less chance of leaving people behind when we help one another. The order also prevents confusion.

Now you can think in terms of are there more good than bad or vice versa.

People are also going to answer this in confusing ways of automatically grading and judging the church by lay members and ground level roots members loyalty and obedience while not specifying that while lumping the leaders in that same boat too. This wouldn't be right. You have to separate if leadership is good, from the ground level root people that are struggling. If you have leadership in forms of priesthood, priesthood keys, ordinances, prophets, revelation, and the other callings then even if some people are or are not following it then you can keep going and function.

Additional information;

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... y?lang=eng

(It's now how big or thick it is but thinking about and praying about the material that is inspired. As you think about it, you can ask the Spirit to help you know it's right.)

Also note these two verses the Lord separates individuals and collective Zion;

Doctrine and Covenants 101:41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened—

Doctrine and Covenants 100:13 And now I give unto you a word concerning Zion. Zion shall be redeemed, although she is chastened for a little season. (He does say he will redeem it!)
Zion to be chastened until she overcomes and is clean, D&C 90:36.(It does NOT say Zion will be overcome...but that she will be cleaned up until she overcomes! Exciting! (well...exciting if you are being good anyway.)

Think of the parable of the 10 virgins. The bridegroom is coming to meet the bride. The bride is the church. It's so amazing that he can think of the people of his church in that special way. We often gloss over these verses as just a story. It's not just a story but a clear special meaning to pass on and look for. It's a dream that millions of people have looked forward to for ages...and continue to do so. And the wording of bride and bridegroom is so special. That is the most endearing term that the Savior could use for his people. He is the bridegroom. The church is the bride. When people are full of pure love the bridegroom thinks of the bride as the thing he favors the most and wants to be with.

Also isn't this a scripture about protection (if living worthy)? Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. (Think how Israel grew and gathered strength learning about the world and multiplying under the umbrella of Egypt. Then when the timing was right, there was a great separation between the wicked and righteous as the redeemed of Zion left Egypt.)

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gclayjr
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by gclayjr »

Fiannan,

I have been pondering this topic and recent started a thread about it here

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46589#p809341

A good analogy is that the most important choice we make in this life is which way we are facing, not where we are when we die.

However, where we are IS important, and DOES have eternal consequences. every choice we make, probably including choices we made in the pre-existence, adds or subtracts from, our knowledge, status, and glory.
Thanks for providing a quote from Brigham Young that validates the conclusions that I have come to in my pondering this subject.

REgards,

George Clay

Rand
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Rand »

The Church is doing its job swimmingly. The members of the church as a whole, not so good. There are individuals in the Church that are using it for what it was meant to be, a means to an end. They are standing on the scaffolding of the Church to build Zion. As a people I think we are failing, as a Church , it is doing its job. But, there are many individuals who are doing well, keeping their lamps ready, and constantly filling their jars with oil to have the extra that will be needed in the days that come.

I read where Brigham Young once said in his day, we were ahead of where Enoch was, after he had been working on it for the same amount of time, in establishing Zion.

Michelle
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Post by Michelle »

I would say about 5 out of 10 are ready. ;)

And I don't expect that to get any better. Just that the differences will become more distinct.

Gage
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Gage »

When I see members leave over issues such as homosexuality, race, priesthood and females, it really makes you wonder what kind of members are attending on Sundays.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Robin Hood »

Fiannan wrote: January 15th, 2018, 9:11 am Brigham Young once said it was better to be one step out of hell and heading to heaven than one step out of heaven and heading to hell. Judging from where the Church is today where are we, and I mean as a collective body? Feel free to provide evidence to advance your view.
Fiannan,
Excellent thought provoking question.
In my anecdotally based view, I think we are heading quite rapidly in the wrong direction. I think we are further away from establishing Zion, even in the hearts of the people, than we have ever been.
I don't know how this can be reversed. There is a great lethargy infecting the Saints at this time and I fear the Lord will have to wake us up in dramatic fashion. It won't be a pleasant experience for any of us.

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Arenera
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Arenera »

In 1975, there were 16 operating temples.

End of 2016 there were 155 operating temples.

Progress is being made. :)

Rand
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Rand »

We are making progress. I am quite sure we are going to go through a cleansing and then the tribulations, after that we will grow amazingly after that.
Keep putting oil in your lamps...

Fiannan
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Fiannan »

Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 2:49 pm In 1975, there were 16 operating temples.

End of 2016 there were 155 operating temples.

Progress is being made. :)
You have your opinion and the mission leaders where I am at have another.

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Arenera
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Re: Brigham Young quote and where we are at.

Post by Arenera »

Fiannan wrote: January 22nd, 2018, 12:29 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 2:49 pm In 1975, there were 16 operating temples.

End of 2016 there were 155 operating temples.

Progress is being made. :)
You have your opinion and the mission leaders where I am at have another.
Check with President Nelson.

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