Deleted

[JohnnyL]

http://biblicaldiscipleship.org/content ... g-universe

[Michelle]

Based on science: about 6000 years.

[Sasquatch]

Based on science, I think the Earth is far older than 6000 years. At least, it's old enough for it to be physically formed and permit the millions of now-extinct species to live out their mortal existences; in the process, the many raw resources we use today were formed.

[brianj]

Thanks, JohnnyL, that was a funny read! I got an initial laugh with the pseudoscience about short-term comets (which doesn't take into account fresh comets being ejected from the Oort cloud and captured in the inner solar system). I particularly laughed at the thing about how the moon should be out of sight.

Let's assume that the moon is receding at a constant rate, which is obviously not true (the rate is increasing as the moon recedes) but simplifies the math. Thanks to the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment, a measured rate of 3.8 cm or 1.496 inches per year has been identified. This is anomalous, as a thorough review of known historic eclipses indicates a rate of 2.82 cm per year and sedimentary records indicate 2.9 cm per year, but let's use the 3.8 cm. Or, since most of us are familiar with the Imperial system, let's use 1.496 inches per year.

The moon is approximately 4.5 billion years old. If its orbit increased by 1.495 inches every one of those 4,500,000,000 years, it has increased by 6,732,000,000 inches. That's a pretty big number so let's divide by 12: the semi major axis of the lunar orbit increased by 561,000,000 feet. Dividing by 5,280 we find a more manageable number: the lunar orbit would have increased by 106,250 miles. With a current semi-major axis of 239,071 miles, you can probably agree that the person who wrote your page has no sense of real science.

And, as I previously said, the rate at which the lunar orbit is growing is increasing. Thanks to tidal rhythmites in the sedimentary record, we have been able to identify that 650 million years ago the moon was receding at about 2.2 cm per year.

[Ezra]

https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ca ... g-failure/

Radioactive carbon dating is not accurate

[brianj]

For those of you who are claiming a 6,000 year old earth, riddle me this:

People say THE FALL OF ADAM happened about 6,000 years ago. BUT scriptures say there is a history before the fall. Either you believe the entire creation happened in the same year as the fall of Adam or you have to admit the planet is older.

Let's use a series of hypothetical premises: let us hypothesize that to God one day is exactly 1,000 years on Earth. Let us hypothesize that each creationary period was exactly one day to God. Let us hypothesize that there was absolutely no period of time between the end of one of the six creationary periods and the start of the next one. For my purposes, I will use the creation narrative from Abraham 4.

In years 1to 1,000 the Earth was created
In years 1,001 to 2,000 light was created and divided to create day and night
In years 2,001 to 3,000 the waters were gathered and land mass(es) exposed
In years 3,001 to 4,000 plant life was introduced to the planet
In years 4,001 to 5,000 animal life was introduced to the planet
In years 5,001 to 6,000 Adam and Eve were created and placed in the garden
In years 6,001 to 7,000 Adam and Eve lived in the garden while God rested.

Don't the scriptures teach that the 6,000 year old Earth belief is nonsense, that it was older at than 6,000 years when Adam fell?
At this point let's pretend the fall happened at the end of that period of rest.
In year 7,001 the Earth's telestial existence started. Since that was about 6,000 years ago, wouldn't that place the age of the planet at 13,000 years?

[brianj]

I guess I should give my own opinion of the planet's age. The age is approximately 4.54 billion years, give or take 50 million years as we currently measure years.

I do believe the creation story as taught in scripture and as detailed in the endowment. But I see nothing in scripture to indicate that 'day' is anything more than a name given to each creationary period. Nor do I see anything to prove that there was no period of time between the end of one creationary period and the start of the next. I also see no reason to believe that each period of creation was of equal length.

In summary, I find nothing in scripture that clearly contradicts the evidence all around us.

[Ezra]

Thanks, JohnnyL, that was a funny read! I got an initial laugh with the pseudoscience about short-term comets (which doesn't take into account fresh comets being ejected from the Oort cloud and captured in the inner solar system). I particularly laughed at the thing about how the moon should be out of sight.

Let's assume that the moon is receding at a constant rate, which is obviously not true (the rate is increasing as the moon recedes) but simplifies the math. Thanks to the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment, a measured rate of 3.8 cm or 1.496 inches per year has been identified. This is anomalous, as a thorough review of known historic eclipses indicates a rate of 2.82 cm per year and sedimentary records indicate 2.9 cm per year, but let's use the 3.8 cm. Or, since most of us are familiar with the Imperial system, let's use 1.496 inches per year.

The moon is approximately 4.5 billion years old. If its orbit increased by 1.495 inches every one of those 4,500,000,000 years, it has increased by 6,732,000,000 inches. That's a pretty big number so let's divide by 12: the semi major axis of the lunar orbit increased by 561,000,000 feet. Dividing by 5,280 we find a more manageable number: the lunar orbit would have increased by 106,250 miles. With a current semi-major axis of 239,071 miles, you can probably agree that the person who wrote your page has no sense of real science.

And, as I previously said, the rate at which the lunar orbit is growing is increasing. Thanks to tidal rhythmites in the sedimentary record, we have been able to identify that 650 million years ago the moon was receding at about 2.2 cm per year.

The earth is also slowing its rotational spin as well. Earth's rotational momentum to the Moon's orbital momentum as tidal friction slows the Earth's rotation. That increase in the Moon's speed is causing it to slowly recede from Earth (about 4 cm per year), increasing its orbital period and the length of a month as well.

So earths rotation was faster in the past as the moon was closer.

Coriolis effect which causes the wind speed and direction due to the speed of rotation and heating and cooling of the earths surface. Shorter the day equals faster the speed of wind.

Jupiter has a 8 hour day and the wind speeds are so extreme that you cannot see the surface due to the dust and storms due to Coriolis effect. there is a hurricane that has a 1000 mile across eye that is always on the sunny side of Jupiter. Wind speeds are insane.

The math is that 100 million years ago earths day was 21 hours.
The change in wind speed due to Coriolis effect puts the storm wind speeds at 500-800 mph.

Life could have existed but I would imagine it being underwater more then on land not much would grow other then short scrubby brush and grass.

[watchthewatchers]

Starting from which reference point? From when the first people started living on it? Or when it was starting to be formed?

[brianj]

The earth is also slowing its rotational spin as well. Earth's rotational momentum to the Moon's orbital momentum as tidal friction slows the Earth's rotation. That increase in the Moon's speed is causing it to slowly recede from Earth (about 4 cm per year), increasing its orbital period and the length of a month as well.

So earths rotation was faster in the past as the moon was closer.

Coriolis effect which causes the wind speed and direction due to the speed of rotation and heating and cooling of the earths surface. Shorter the day equals faster the speed of wind.

Jupiter has a 8 hour day and the wind speeds are so extreme that you cannot see the surface due to the dust and storms due to Coriolis effect. there is a hurricane that has a 1000 mile across eye that is always on the sunny side of Jupiter. Wind speeds are insane.

The math is that 100 million years ago earths day was 21 hours.
The change in wind speed due to Coriolis effect puts the storm wind speeds at 500-800 mph.

Life could have existed but I would imagine it being underwater more then on land not much would grow other then short scrubby brush and grass.

Actually, according to fossilized coral we can determine there were 385 days per year 350 million years ago. That means 3.5 times your 100 million year number the length of a day was roughly 22 hours, 45 minutes, 11.69 seconds.

The circumference at the equator is 24,900 miles. Divided by 24 hours, this gives a rotational velocity of 1,037.5 miles per hour. If the length of a day were 22:45:11.39, the rotational velocity at the equator would be 1,094.34. That's less than a 5.5% increase and nowhere enough to generate 500 mph storm winds.

[David13]

None of us really knows.
I don't believe "science" at all on most of anything. Science is nothing but ... "theory".
So if the Bible does say 6000 which I don't know, I'll go with that.
It really doesn't make much difference to me.
dc

[Ezra]

The earth is also slowing its rotational spin as well. Earth's rotational momentum to the Moon's orbital momentum as tidal friction slows the Earth's rotation. That increase in the Moon's speed is causing it to slowly recede from Earth (about 4 cm per year), increasing its orbital period and the length of a month as well.

So earths rotation was faster in the past as the moon was closer.

Coriolis effect which causes the wind speed and direction due to the speed of rotation and heating and cooling of the earths surface. Shorter the day equals faster the speed of wind.

Jupiter has a 8 hour day and the wind speeds are so extreme that you cannot see the surface due to the dust and storms due to Coriolis effect. there is a hurricane that has a 1000 mile across eye that is always on the sunny side of Jupiter. Wind speeds are insane.

The math is that 100 million years ago earths day was 21 hours.
The change in wind speed due to Coriolis effect puts the storm wind speeds at 500-800 mph.

Life could have existed but I would imagine it being underwater more then on land not much would grow other then short scrubby brush and grass.

Actually, according to fossilized coral we can determine there were 385 days per year 350 million years ago. That means 3.5 times your 100 million year number the length of a day was roughly 22 hours, 45 minutes, 11.69 seconds.

The circumference at the equator is 24,900 miles. Divided by 24 hours, this gives a rotational velocity of 1,037.5 miles per hour. If the length of a day were 22:45:11.39, the rotational velocity at the equator would be 1,094.34. That's less than a 5.5% increase and nowhere enough to generate 500 mph storm winds.

That being dated by the very inaccurate radioactive carbon dating??

[brianj]

That being dated by the very inaccurate radioactive carbon dating??

No. Uranium-lead dating of zircon, along with interpolating how old the planet needed to be for these mineral deposits to solidify and remain solid, is the method for determining the age of the planet.

I'm sure you can easily find things online claiming U-Pb dating is unreliable, but finding a reliable source will be a real challenge for you.

[brianj]

One more thing, Ezra. You need to actually read things before you post them.

You posted "proof" that radiocarbon dating is inaccurate, but the link very clearly discusses only K-Ar dating.

And if you were as informed on the subject of radiometric dating as you want us to believe, you would have to admit that radiocarbon dating is only used for organic material.

[BeNotDeceived]

... The earth is also slowing its rotational spin as well. Earth's rotational momentum to the Moon's orbital momentum as tidal friction slows the Earth's rotation. That increase in the Moon's speed is causing it to slowly recede from Earth (about 4 cm per year), increasing its orbital period and the length of a month as well.

So earths rotation was faster in the past as the moon was closer. ...

... Once the length of a day equals the length of a month, the tidal friction mechanism would cease. ...

At this point the moon's orbital radius would begin to decrease, iff things continue unaffected.

... The term "day" (Hebrew yom ) for the seven "days" of creation is given as "time," a permissible alternative in both Hebrew and English; and it is explicitly pointed out that the "time" in which Adam should die if he partook of the forbidden fruit "was after the Lord's time, which was after the time of Kolob [a great star that Abraham had seen nearest to the throne of God, whose revolution, one thousand years by our reckoning, is a day unto the Lord]; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning" (Abr. 5:13;3:2-4).

On the basis of the above passage, which clearly excludes the possibility of earthly twenty-four-hour days being the "days" or "times" of creation, some Latter-day Saint commentators have argued for one-thousand-year periods as the "times" of creation as well as the "time" of Adam's earthly life after the fall; others have argued for indefinite periods of time, as long as it would take to accomplish the work involved. Abraham's account does contain the interesting passage, in connection with the "organizing" of the lights in the "expanse" of heaven, "The Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed" (Abr. 4:14-18). ...

How long did The Gods watch, before things obeyed isn't specified, meaning a time period more that 6 days, needs to be considered, and the Earth may have indeed spun faster assuming the Earth/Moon interaction continued as originally set in motion. Maybe the length of the day was one thing they watched change, that caused things to obey?

[Ezra]

That being dated by the very inaccurate radioactive carbon dating??

No. Uranium-lead dating of zircon, along with interpolating how old the planet needed to be for these mineral deposits to solidify and remain solid, is the method for determining the age of the planet.

I'm sure you can easily find things online claiming U-Pb dating is unreliable, but finding a reliable source will be a real challenge for you.

There are too many things that are outside of the supposed dates of the planet to support the date of the planet.

Like http://mb.ntd.tv/inspiring/life/ancient ... s-old.html

To many forgotten more advanced technology that we today don’t possess. there is evidence of it existing in the past that cannot be explained or reproduced today.

It would be wonderful to watch a time laps of the earths development and history.

I feel that there is way to little info to even grasp a even close to a comprehensible storylines.

The “earth” could have easily been peieced together from many other planets that were brought together.
The 500 million year old hammer could have belonged to a Civilization that was part of a different world altogether that got pieced into this one.

I have seen frist hand pictographs of Mammoths in the owhyee dessert. Pictographs don’t last 10,000 years on exposed rocks. Things just don’t fit scientists timelines.

I just don’t believe the sources of authority in which you sight. I don’t believe the dating systems are accurate. And even if they were. What they are dating could be parts of another planet. another one of God’s created and then reused human trial of the past.
There are just too many holes to many historical evidences and facts that history cannot place.

I read a lot. But more then just read books written by “the arm of the fresh”. I have actually seen with my own eyes things that those supposedly “learned men” can’t explain. Things that contradict their claims.

[Ezra]

How can one believe scientists when according to them 98% of them believe in global warming. Obviously they are misinformed.

[LDS Physician]

Remember too that the earth was formed utilizing matter already in existence. Date that matter all you want...it probably doesn't really tell you the "age" of the earth...just the age of the material the earth was formed with.

[brianj]

That being dated by the very inaccurate radioactive carbon dating??

No. Uranium-lead dating of zircon, along with interpolating how old the planet needed to be for these mineral deposits to solidify and remain solid, is the method for determining the age of the planet.

I'm sure you can easily find things online claiming U-Pb dating is unreliable, but finding a reliable source will be a real challenge for you.

There are too many things that are outside of the supposed dates of the planet to support the date of the planet.

Like http://mb.ntd.tv/inspiring/life/ancient ... s-old.html

To many forgotten more advanced technology that we today don’t possess. there is evidence of it existing in the past that cannot be explained or reproduced today.

It would be wonderful to watch a time laps of the earths development and history.

I feel that there is way to little info to even grasp a even close to a comprehensible storylines.

The “earth” could have easily been peieced together from many other planets that were brought together.
The 500 million year old hammer could have belonged to a Civilization that was part of a different world altogether that got pieced into this one.

I have seen frist hand pictographs of Mammoths in the owhyee dessert. Pictographs don’t last 10,000 years on exposed rocks. Things just don’t fit scientists timelines.

I just don’t believe the sources of authority in which you sight. I don’t believe the dating systems are accurate. And even if they were. What they are dating could be parts of another planet. another one of God’s created and then reused human trial of the past.
There are just too many holes to many historical evidences and facts that history cannot place.

I read a lot. But more then just read books written by “the arm of the fresh”. I have actually seen with my own eyes things that those supposedly “learned men” can’t explain. Things that contradict their claims.

So...
You believe that God makes planets, those planets eventually become Celestial residences for the worthy mortals who lived there, but those planets become destroyed and parts of them are used to make other planets?

[Z2100]

How old do you think our planet is? Based on science.

According to Wilford Woodruff, the Earth took 7000 years to make, so.

7000 (creation period)+7000 (temporal earth)+1000(millennium)+500 to 1000 ("satan loosed for a little season")

Then we live about 13,921 years since the beginning of the Earth & 6921 years since the Fall of Man

the earth would be about 16,000-16,500 years old from "the beginning" to the end of the Millennium.

I believe that the Earth could've been created about 15,000 years ago. Look at what the great Flood did to the world in 1 year. I highly suspect the creation of the Earth to be on the same-scale of the Great Flood.

[brianj]

... Once the length of a day equals the length of a month, the tidal friction mechanism would cease. ...

At this point the moon's orbital radius would begin to decrease, iff things continue unaffected.

First, the alternate translation for you is very interesting, thank you.

On the subject of the lunar orbit, what would cause it to decay? The exosphere only extends about half the current distance to the moon, so atmospheric forces wouldn't cause the orbit to decay. And at that point in time the moon wouldn't be below a geosynchronous orbit so tidal forces wouldn't decay the orbit.

[onefour1]

I don't believe the earth itself was created during the seven creation periods mentioned in Genesis, Moses, and Abraham. Here is what we read:

Genesis 1:1-5
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The counting of the seven periods of creation started after light was introduced onto the earth and divided between night and day. But the earth itself already existed. All we know is that the earth was created in the beginning.

Moses 2:1-5
1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and I caused darkness to come up upon the face of the deep; and my Spirit moved upon the face of the water; for I am God.
3 And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And I, God, saw the light; and that light was good. And I, God, divided the light from the darkness.
5 And I, God, called the light Day; and the darkness, I called Night; and this I did by the word of my power, and it was done as I spake; and the evening and the morning were the first day.

Abraham 4:1-5
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.
5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

It appears that the earth was created before light was introduced upon it. Once light was introduced upon it the light was divided from the darkness and they became night and day. From these periods of night and day we count the seven periods of creation.

Another thing to note is that Adam was not yet given his time of reckoning. It was not until after the creation that time was reckoned according to the rotations of the earth and revolutions of the earth around the sun. In fact the light introduced in the first five verses of each record above was not the sun. The sun was not introduced to the earth until the fourth day in Genesis, Moses, and Abraham. Thus the reckoning was after the Lord's time.

Abraham 5:13
13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

From this we know that the seven creation periods took 1000 years each or 7000 years. We have lived on this earth nearly 6000 years since the fall of Adam. Not sure how long it took Adam to fall after the creation. But we still don't know how long before the seven creation periods the earth was formed.

[Ezra]

That being dated by the very inaccurate radioactive carbon dating??

No. Uranium-lead dating of zircon, along with interpolating how old the planet needed to be for these mineral deposits to solidify and remain solid, is the method for determining the age of the planet.

I'm sure you can easily find things online claiming U-Pb dating is unreliable, but finding a reliable source will be a real challenge for you.

There are too many things that are outside of the supposed dates of the planet to support the date of the planet.

Like http://mb.ntd.tv/inspiring/life/ancient ... s-old.html

To many forgotten more advanced technology that we today don’t possess. there is evidence of it existing in the past that cannot be explained or reproduced today.

It would be wonderful to watch a time laps of the earths development and history.

I feel that there is way to little info to even grasp a even close to a comprehensible storylines.

The “earth” could have easily been peieced together from many other planets that were brought together.
The 500 million year old hammer could have belonged to a Civilization that was part of a different world altogether that got pieced into this one.

I have seen frist hand pictographs of Mammoths in the owhyee dessert. Pictographs don’t last 10,000 years on exposed rocks. Things just don’t fit scientists timelines.

I just don’t believe the sources of authority in which you sight. I don’t believe the dating systems are accurate. And even if they were. What they are dating could be parts of another planet. another one of God’s created and then reused human trial of the past.
There are just too many holes to many historical evidences and facts that history cannot place.

I read a lot. But more then just read books written by “the arm of the fresh”. I have actually seen with my own eyes things that those supposedly “learned men” can’t explain. Things that contradict their claims.

So...
You believe that God makes planets, those planets eventually become Celestial residences for the worthy mortals who lived there, but those planets become destroyed and parts of them are used to make other planets?

I believe we don’t know all the answers to what all God has done is doing or will do without a perfect knowledge.

[SouEu]

A good article on this discussion can be found at https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... _the_Earth and another at http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-sc ... -and-time/

W.W. Phelps speculated that the Earth is 2.555 Billion years old.

In the Times and Seasons, a letter from Phelps to the Prophet’s brother William states:

That eternity, agreeable to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system
[Page 76]
(not the world) almost 2555 millions of years; and to know that deists, geologists and others are trying to prove that matter must have existed hundreds of thousands of years:—it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!

It has been 6,000+ years since the fall of Adam. The Earths "Temporal" existence is about 6,000 years. The phrase "temporal existence" of the earth does not include the creative and preparatory period.

The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002) chapter "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation" states that the seven thousand years "do not include the period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man."
D&C 77:6–7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)

I believe that one of the issues is the interpretation of "Day" when describing the creation, and is a bad translation. The word that should be used should be something more like "period", "stage", "span" or "interval".

The creation could be seen as a set of creation "periods", and each period could be millions of years. They were probably differing lengths of time, one "period" being a million years, and another being maybe 2 million.

[Z2100]

For those of you who are claiming a 6,000 year old earth, riddle me this:

People say THE FALL OF ADAM happened about 6,000 years ago. BUT scriptures say there is a history before the fall. Either you believe the entire creation happened in the same year as the fall of Adam or you have to admit the planet is older.

Let's use a series of hypothetical premises: let us hypothesize that to God one day is exactly 1,000 years on Earth. Let us hypothesize that each creationary period was exactly one day to God. Let us hypothesize that there was absolutely no period of time between the end of one of the six creationary periods and the start of the next one. For my purposes, I will use the creation narrative from Abraham 4.

In years 1to 1,000 the Earth was created
In years 1,001 to 2,000 light was created and divided to create day and night
In years 2,001 to 3,000 the waters were gathered and land mass(es) exposed
In years 3,001 to 4,000 plant life was introduced to the planet
In years 4,001 to 5,000 animal life was introduced to the planet
In years 5,001 to 6,000 Adam and Eve were created and placed in the garden
In years 6,001 to 7,000 Adam and Eve lived in the garden while God rested.

Don't the scriptures teach that the 6,000 year old Earth belief is nonsense, that it was older at than 6,000 years when Adam fell?
At this point let's pretend the fall happened at the end of that period of rest.
In year 7,001 the Earth's telestial existence started. Since that was about 6,000 years ago, wouldn't that place the age of the planet at 13,000 years?

I just posted the same thing! We’re about 13,921 years since the beginning of the Earth. Wilford Woodruff actually taught in his “Journals of Discourses” that the physical Earth took 7000 years to make.