The Last Day of Jesus Christ's Primitive Church

[DesertWonderer2]

If you read the NT writtings by Peter, John and Paul, you will see that the apostacy was well underway a decade before their (Peter and Paul) death. The Falling Away happened very quickly in the primitive church once the only people with the keys authorized to opperate the church were gone. You need to look no further than this forum to see how quickly false doctrine and aberrant behaviors creep into the church (denver snuffer, julie rowe, that thread on reincarnation, false visions, misinterpretation of scripture...)

Net, net I’m going w the somewhat arbitrary year of 100 AD that the church ended.

[Darren]

The Last Days of Jesus Christ's Primitive Church were around 1818 in Connecticut continuing until 1820 in Massachusetts. With the Patriarchal Authority continuing within the Joseph Smith, Sr. Family thereafter until the restoration. (D&C 86:8-11)

Because of the continuance of the Apostle John living among the lost tribes of Israel and preparing them for their return from their long dispersion, it is in error to suggest that the Primitive Church's authority was ever taken from the earth, or that the lost tribes of Israel have not been living under that authority of the Apostle John living among them.(HC 1:176) We know what the Apostle John is doing right now, (Revelations 10:8-11) but what about the 3 Nephite Disciples who also received the same promise of living until the Second Coming as did the Apostle John.

The return of the lost tribes of Israel's Scriptures debunk the "all the apostles died, and took the authority from the earth" myth perpetuated by the uninformed in the Church. And from my understanding by reading the commentary to the lost tribes of Israel Scriptures, that it was during Joseph Smith's young boyhood that the "State Church" of Christianity that had continued for nearly 1800 years finally collapsed under the establishment of the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty of 1786 and the subsequent conversion of Commonwealths into States 30 or so years later.

God Bless,
Darren

[Sarah]

You guys have stumbled upon a fragment of truth, but are confusing it I think. You are to be commended really for trying hard and studying. I like that you are trying to get a grasp of what happened. But you have mixed things up slightly. I would suggest a correction and also that we're in the spirit of friendship so please don't be offended. I am also not knocking what you guys have put down.

The apostles were all killed off before the 1st century. And they were killed off before there was a transfer of authority. This is very credible and there are many sources on this. Here is one of them**. And a basic question is; why ignore simple truth? The truth is that you can't have a church and deny prophecy, revelation, and the attributes necessary to sustain the church. The early church had these necessary 'organs' killed off. Now I would point out to you that there are hints in the Book of Mormon about this concept. There are many warnings of verses about denying the Spirit of Prophecy, revelation, healing, and organs of a true church. And also a very important fact is that the Spirit of prophecy, revelation, and inspired gifts can't be separated from truth. If you deny one of them then the other isn't there. If you deny the prophets then how can you have inspired teaching? (See scriptures below about this concept and it being important.)

** http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/k ... stles-die/ **

(I used a fairly reputable source, not something strange that no one had heard before. But this isn't the only source for this.)

Now I would suggest to you that you do have an idea that is interesting but should maybe reclassify what you guys brought up about this 570 AD date. There were still 'believers' and Christians, and smaller groups of 'survivor saints' spreading through a diasphora into Europe. You guys have found a date around events of these believer groups that were spreading through Europe. And it is true but misclassified. But the church was dead before 570.

Alma 17:3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God. (So you can't separate prophecy, and revelation from inspired teaching. They come together. To deny one is to deny the other. Without a prophet and apostles the other early church locations then lost inspired teaching. Then they also lost the church. Who would give out callings if the ones who had revelation and prophecy were cut out?)

Source #2; The Book of Mormon introductory page states written by prophecy and revelation

Many sources such as Jacob 4:6, Alma 3:27, Alma 12:7, Alma 9:21, and many many others show clearly that inspired teaching, and prophecy, and revelation all come hand in hand. You don't see them separate. Why? Because you can't separate them. They are linked through the Spirit of God.

Another example; Alma 8:24 And behold, I have been called to preach the word of God among all this people, according to the spirit of revelation and prophecy; and I was in this land and they would not receive me, but they cast me out and I was about to set my back towards this land forever.

*3 Nephi 29:6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost! (What is the woe? I would suggest the woe has several forms, but one of them is a loss of a church if you have no prophets. You can't take the prophets and apostles out of the church and still have one. When you individually deny the spirit then you have personal apostasy, which is sad. There are many verses like this all throughout the scriptures. I could even probably find several in the Bible.)

And another 'why' on why does the 570 not work for classifying the end of the church?

Another piece of the pie;

http://www.reformation.org/pope-constantine.html

This source...is not mine so I don't fully endorse it. But there are many other sites quoting the same information. And I would be careful looking at it since I haven't looked at everything there but for the focus of Constantine it does illustrate information on Constantine becoming the first pope and taking over the church to solidify power in Rome. But by doing the take over of the christian church by the emperor of Rome, Constantine shows a very clear signal that there is an absence of solidarity of leadership. (Where were the people he replaced? He must have noticed there were a lot of believers and that they were law abiding people, and therefore would be a great resource to stop the crumbling Roman Empire. Most sources also show Constantine the first pope, or Emperor of Rome doing this around 312 A.D. This date is long before 570 A.D.

And why did he do this? Constantine was trying to save the Roman Empire. I am not condoning his actions. But the Roman Empire was in trouble. He was probably desperate to try anything. During some parts of the Roman Empire in its decline it wasn't unusual for very short reigns and numerous assassinations in some centuries. (Veriable by sources in history).

Once again, necessary organs to have a church are; prophets, apostles, priesthood power, priesthood keys, inspired teaching, and ordinances.

And when did Paul die?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

And if the early church hadn't ended when it did then wouldn't we have many other scriptures after the original apostles and Paul lived?

So thank you for your efforts and please don't mind my slight correction, with a spirit of friendship and not bashing. Please also remember we're not in a competition with one another but all of us need to lay hold of the truth equally.

I appreciate your perspective and think you're right about the Church being in a state of apostasy from early on, but I also agree with what Robinhood said, that despite the fact that a Church without apostles is destined to fail, any ordinance performed by Priesthood authority that was given in the correct way or order would have been valid. We know that the early Church was in a state of apostasy even before all the apostles died, with the definition of apostasy being any straying away from apostolic teaching and authority. But we don't know much about all the localized leaders and what each branch/church was doing throughout the world. I remember a time when our Stake President told us about a training he was at when one of the GA's was trying to get the Stake Presidents to understand that they hold all the keys necessary to lead their flock within the Church, even if they were not able to be in contact with the apostles.

So, I think my view is still that we can separate the definition of apostasy with the existence of a functioning Church.

[Darren]

The word "apostasy" is not found anywhere in the Scriptures of the LDS Church.

In 1959 President Henry D. Moyle of the First Presidency said to a group of linguists at Fort Douglas, Utah,

All of you know very well what the Lord told to the Three Nephites, that they would not die but that they were to be ‘translated’ in order that they ‘might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.’ He said to them that they were to be a repetition, in this Hemisphere, of what John the Revelator was to be in the Eastern Hemisphere. You know very well that it is the Doctrine of the Church that John the Revelator, in his Translated Body, came with Peter and James, in their Resurrected Bodies, to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. By the Lord telling the Three Nephites that they had desired what John desired and that they ‘shall never taste of death’ in the same way that John would not, it is a Church Doctrine that all of you know very well that John retained, in his translated body, the authority that he had been ordained to, of his office of Apostle and Leader of the Church, after the other Apostles had died. By his doing this, all of the Lies that other organizations gave for their having something to do as a continuation of a Leadership for Christianity, AFTER ALL OF THE APOSTLES HAD DIED are obvious falsehoods. Now, if you will just begin using this truth, as all of you know it so very well, then people such as these Greek non-members won’t be so confused about the Restoration of the Authority to lead Christ’s Church, like their Greek Church is confused.

In Preach My Gospel we find the following, "The Great Apostasy
After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church
members and killed many of them."
Nowhere does it say that all of the Apostles died.

What if the Last Day of Jesus Christ's Primitive Church never actually happened? The Church has allowed members to water down the message of the apostasy to be more palatable in circles of non-member friends, rather than giving them the meat of the message found in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 7.

God Bless,
Darren

[harakim]

This is the subject of speculation. I know some people on this board believe something very different and are quick those hare those beliefs, but I believe the woman described in Revelation 12 is the church of Jesus Christ. My belief is shared by the leaders who were responsible for cross referencing and footnoting the standard works, as demonstrated by the scriptures cross referenced to the word woman in verses 1 and 6.

If this interpretation is correct, then the reference to the woman (the church) fleeing into the wilderness in verse 6 describes the apostasy. Since the apostasy ended in 1830, and assuming the 1,260 days referenced in that verse refer to years, we can conclude the apostasy began in 570 AD. Which leaves me very desirous to learn of the history of the church among various groups. We know the history of the Nephites ended at about 400 AD, but we don't know the history of the church in the Near East, among the Lost Tribes, or within other groups that may have been lead away from Israel.

The cross referencing was done by a computer and verified by (random) people, not church authorities.

[Silver]

This is the subject of speculation. I know some people on this board believe something very different and are quick those hare those beliefs, but I believe the woman described in Revelation 12 is the church of Jesus Christ. My belief is shared by the leaders who were responsible for cross referencing and footnoting the standard works, as demonstrated by the scriptures cross referenced to the word woman in verses 1 and 6.

If this interpretation is correct, then the reference to the woman (the church) fleeing into the wilderness in verse 6 describes the apostasy. Since the apostasy ended in 1830, and assuming the 1,260 days referenced in that verse refer to years, we can conclude the apostasy began in 570 AD. Which leaves me very desirous to learn of the history of the church among various groups. We know the history of the Nephites ended at about 400 AD, but we don't know the history of the church in the Near East, among the Lost Tribes, or within other groups that may have been lead away from Israel.

The cross referencing was done by a computer and verified by (random) people, not church authorities.

Really? That's very interesting. I'm not doubting you, but how in the world did a computer come up with cross-reference "a" in 1 Nephi 2:10 connecting the word "firm" to Ezion-geber?

[Rand]

The word "apostasy" is not found anywhere in the Scriptures of the LDS Church.

In 1959 President Henry D. Moyle of the First Presidency said to a group of linguists at Fort Douglas, Utah,

All of you know very well what the Lord told to the Three Nephites, that they would not die but that they were to be ‘translated’ in order that they ‘might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.’ He said to them that they were to be a repetition, in this Hemisphere, of what John the Revelator was to be in the Eastern Hemisphere. You know very well that it is the Doctrine of the Church that John the Revelator, in his Translated Body, came with Peter and James, in their Resurrected Bodies, to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. By the Lord telling the Three Nephites that they had desired what John desired and that they ‘shall never taste of death’ in the same way that John would not, it is a Church Doctrine that all of you know very well that John retained, in his translated body, the authority that he had been ordained to, of his office of Apostle and Leader of the Church, after the other Apostles had died. By his doing this, all of the Lies that other organizations gave for their having something to do as a continuation of a Leadership for Christianity, AFTER ALL OF THE APOSTLES HAD DIED are obvious falsehoods. Now, if you will just begin using this truth, as all of you know it so very well, then people such as these Greek non-members won’t be so confused about the Restoration of the Authority to lead Christ’s Church, like their Greek Church is confused.

In Preach My Gospel we find the following, "The Great Apostasy
After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church
members and killed many of them."
Nowhere does it say that all of the Apostles died.

What if the Last Day of Jesus Christ's Primitive Church never actually happened? The Church has allowed members to water down the message of the apostasy to be more palatable in circles of non-member friends, rather than giving them the meat of the message found in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 7.

God Bless,
Darren

This is accurate Darren, but by this application Enoch is still a living key holder too. Moses who was likely translated, Elijah, and others including Melchizedek are still holding keys. This becomes a very crowded theater very quickly. Just because John didn't die, does that mean that the key holder remained with "The Primitive Church"? The 10 lost tribes never had interaction with this church anyway. So, the question is more about the primitive church more than about this creation.
I do enjoy your view of things.

[Darren]

What Church? What Authority? Who held it? Here is some more perspective to consider as we try so hard to isolate the Primitive Church from the Modern Church.

From my study of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel as is available in the 1,000 Page Course, I understand where most of the Apostles went after Jesus' resurrection.

One Apostle that we are sure of is the Apostle John. The prophet Joseph Smith said that the Apostle John is currently living among the lost tribes of Israel, preparing them for their return. He never died (D&C Section 7) so presumably he is still doing the work Jesus sent him forth to do.

According to the Icelandic Eddas and other Germanic folk customs and writings, the Apostle Peter was instrumental in helping Jesus relocate the bulk of the Church in about 40 AD to its new home in and around the Scandinavian Peninsula, with the Church Headquarters eventually located on the Danish Island of Fyn.

Arriving in the North Country, The presiding Apostle Peter, as the great example to the faithful, took on the name for the perfect one, the "Thorough One" after our Heavenly Father who is also called the "Thorough One" or just shortened to "Thor." So the name Thor was used interchangeably for Heavenly Father and the Apostle Peter. Thor also continued as a title for the "Supreme Judge" who had that hammer gavel of his.

Peter/Thor presided over the Church at the Church’s headquarters set up on the Island of Fyn in Denmark. So the Apostle Peter presumably spent many of his days, administrating the Church from that location as well as visiting the many organized congregations of the lost tribes of Israel in the North Country.

According to the Icelandic Eddas, The Apostle James stayed behind with the Apostle John around the Holy Land to help those left behind when the Church migrated north. James lived out his days in this calling of his. John was able to live to see the Romans destroy Jerusalem, then living beyond the years of a normal human being he eventually went up north to join up with the Church in the North Country.

When the new 12 of the Apostles (two new apostles were added at the north shores of the Black Sea, near the mouth of the Don River), arrived in Saxland, the Germanic people came out against these "invaders." But because of a miracle the Apostles were able to convince the Germanic people that they had come with power from God. The Apostles had taken off their armor and were able to stop the attack of the Germanic hosts without any harm to themselves. In remembrance of that miracle, the Germanic hosts nick-named the apostles the “bare shirts” and they named their counties “bare shirts” (Berserks) in their honor.

Those two new Apostles added to the Quorum of the 12, their names were Ing who had his name changed from Freyer, and Ing's uncle and god-father Nord. Ing and Nord were Israelites, living in the group called the Wayne People (on the Don River). Ing is the Father of the Ing(Eng)lish People and he was the second king of Norway.

Some of the other apostles that we have record of that moved with Peter and the Church to the North Country were renamed by the lost tribes of Israel as Balder, Elmer and Brag.

Traveling with the Church was Jesus’s Mother Mary and she was called Frigg/Freya by the Germanic people, and Jesus’s Wife, Mary was called Frigg/Freya also. And the lost tribes of Israel, working together by the principles of Jesus Christ, makes you a member of his personal family, you become a Freeman in the Free Enterprise System. The word Free comes from Frigg/Freya and means Mary.

The Resurrected Jesus Christ, who the Icelandic Eddas said had hung on a tree, and had been wounded by a spear, unto death, revived and lead the Church to its new home. Jesus Christ then commissioned the building of a temple to the west of Stockholm on the north shore of Maelare Lake. The temple was the place to take the Temple Oaths. Jesus Christ, is called by the lost tribes of Israel Oathin, or the one you take your Oath with. Oathin, Odin, Woden all are Jesus Christ's names.

There at his temple in Sigtuna He gave his law to the lost tribes of Israel.

I made these videos, I am reading from the book, "The Story of our Law for Little Children"

Snorri Sturluson wrote the Icelandic Sagas, and in particular the Ynglinga Saga to show by what Authority the kings of Norway were conquering the western world, that they were doing so as the blood line Patriarchs, decedents of Odin/Jesus. Of which also Joseph Smith, Jr. is a decedent from.

THE APOSTASY

These words have a lot of significance to LDS People. When I was on my Mission, 50 years ago, they were the title of the Second Lesson. In the Six Missionary Discussions, Discussion 3 is, “The Restoration.” In Discussion 3 its “Principle 2” is, “Apostasy.”

The main part of “Preach My Gospel” is, “3 Study and Teach.” Therein is, “Lesson 1: The Restoration.” Addressing this Lesson as, “The Message of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” this Lesson is divided into 8 parts. In the third part, “Heavenly Father Reveals His Gospel in Every Dispensation,” the subject of “apostasy” is spoken about. The fifth part is entitled, “The Great Apostasy.”

This subject of, “The Apostasy,” has been a way that the LDS People have introduced Investigators to the circumstances requiring The Restoration of the Gospel, in our times. As important as this subject of, “Apostasy,” has been, though, that word, “Apostasy,” is not found in the Text of any of the Scriptures of the LDS Church.

The apostasy was the subject of a rather severe scolding that was given to a number of us who, as returned missionary Linguists, were serving in the Utah National Guard’s, today, well-known Linguists Organization, by a Member of the First Presidency.

The occasion was on a Sunday when the Linguists Organization had a drill but which, since it included a Sunday, made allowance for us to hold our Church Meetings. It happened that President Henry D. Moyle, the First Counselor in the First Presidency, had been invited to attend.

In the course of discussing the Lesson that was presented it perhaps seemed to President Moyle that all of us were utilizing a Lie which, though repeated so much, is proven to be a Lie by what we have in relation to it in the Book of Mormon.

It seemed that the reason for the earnestness in his scolding was that the members of our Organization who spoke Greek were not LDS and that the Lie that we were saying made it more difficult for such non-members as those to understand the significance of the Restoration of the Gospel.

The Lie is found in The Gospel According to St. John, in its final Chapter, 21, Verses 21 through 24.

John 21:21. Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22. Jesus saith unto him, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: YET JESUS SAID NOT UNTO HIM, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24. This is the disciple which testified of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

In the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 28:6 – 8, the Lord says the following:

3 Nephi 28:6. And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7. Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all of the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8. And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

President Moyle’s scolding of us went like this. “All of you know very well what the Lord told to the Three Nephites, that they would not die but that they were to be ‘translated’ in order that they ‘might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.’ He said to them that they were to be a repetition, in this Hemisphere, of what John the Revelator was to be in the Eastern Hemisphere. You know very well that it is the Doctrine of the Church that John the Revelator, in his Translated Body, came with Peter and James, in their Resurrected Bodies, to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. By the Lord telling the Three Nephites that they had desired what John desired and that they ‘shall never taste of death’ in the same way that John would not, it is a Church Doctrine that all of you know very well that John retained, in his translated body, the authority that he had been ordained to, of his office of Apostle and Leader of the Church, after the other Apostles had died. By his doing this, all of the Lies that other organizations gave for their having something to do as a continuation of a Leadership for Christianity, AFTER ALL OF THE APOSTLES HAD DIED are obvious falsehoods. Now, if you will just begin using this truth, as all of you know it so very well, then people such as these Greek non-members won’t be so confused about the Restoration of the Authority to lead Christ’s Church, like their Greek Church is confused.”

[As I have repeatedly explained at length, the “essence” of the Military History of Europe - for those who need to know the “truth” about what was involved in that, instead of going along with all of the conflicting nonsensical Lies about it - is that when it became obvious that the Christian Anglo-Saxon Group that invented Knighthood could eliminate the control that the Roman Empire had exercised over Western Europe through its paid Infantry Army, the Roman Empire began saying that their “Statecraft Religion” included the Religion of Christianity.

That “Statecraft Religion” of Rome was the Administration of its concept of “Money,” which was the name of the principal Goddess of Rome, “Moneta,” or, in English, “Money.”

When the Roman Empire lost its military control over Western Europe, through the means of its paid Infantry Army, to that Christian Knighthood Cavalry, and started administering its Money Religion from Fortresses, built for control over that Money against that Christian Knighthood Cavalry (if ever that might be necessary, which it never was) and started saying that their Statecraft Religion included Christianity, that Statecraft Religion did not change at all from what it had been.

The Ancient Greek word for their Statecraft was the Greek word for their concept that the Sky spins around the Earth every day and night in a “One-spin.” The Ancient Greek word for that concept was, “catholic”; it had nothing at all to do with Christianity and had preceded it by Centuries.

They called their Roman Statecraft Religion and Government, “the Roman Catholic Assembly” (“ecclesia,” in both Ancient Greek and Latin) long before they said that it had anything at all to do with Christianity. And, that same name has been retained, as its name, till this day, in all of the Languages that are classified as, “Latin” Languages.]

It is obvious, to casual readers, that those last few verses of the Gospel According to St. John are counterfeit, written by some person as a forger, pretending that he is John, as John is understood to be the Author of the previous Chapters of the Gospel According to St. John. When he calls John, “that disciple” and “him,” instead of saying, “me,” it is obvious that this is a forger, even though he has the following verse, 24, begin, “This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true” (whoever that “we” that he uses is supposed to represent).

What President Moyle said to us, and as all LDS know is Church Doctrine, John the Revelator did not die, but was allowed to “tarry” alive, in the same way that the Three Nephite Disciples were allowed to do that.

With that fact, all of the Lies that that Roman Statecraft came up with are all meaningless.

John retained the Apostolic Authority after the other Apostles died. He was the continuation of the Leadership of the Priesthood after the other Apostles died.

There was no continuation of that Authority in the city of Rome. It is felt that the Christianity that there had been, in much of the Mediterranean Sea Area, was severely destroyed, by Roman reactions, when the Nordic Christians, that have been mentioned, invented Knighthood and, then, with their Knighthood Cavalries, eliminated the control that the Roman Empire had had over Western Europe, with its paid Infantry Army.

The Roman Lie that the Apostle Peter, after the Apostle John’s death, somehow, stumbled into Rome, as some kind of a stumble-bum there, and gave his Authority over Christianity to the person in Rome that, at that time, was serving as the Leader of the Statecraft Religion of Rome, which Office of the Leadership of Rome’s Ancient Pagan Religion of Rome’s Ancient Pagan Goddess, Money, had, from the Centuries BC, carried the title, “The Great Bridge Fixer of Rome,” “The Pontifex Maximus of Rome” (in the Latin Language), seems to so many to be the Lie that it is.

The word, “church,” is a Nordic Christian word for the Organization of the Nordic Christians, which included those whose Invention of Knighthood eliminated the military control of the Roman Empire over Western Europe.

The “Roman Catholic ‘Ecclesia’ (again, Latin for “Assembly”)” was only the same name as before for those involved in the Administration of the Coin Money Economy which those Roman Administrators continued administering throughout Western Europe, only from Castles, after those Christian Knighthood Cavalries needed to bring their threatened People into Western Europe.

With John the Revelator remaining alive and retaining the Authority for the Leadership of Christianity in the Eastern Hemisphere, there is no connection whatsoever between that Leadership, which the Lord established over Christianity, with the continuation of the Administration of the Roman Coin Money Economy, for Western Europe, by the Government of the Roman Empire that continued using the name, “the Roman Catholic Assembly.”


EVERY HISTORY BOOK TELLS HOW ALL OF THE GERMANIC PEOPLES WERE ALL CHRISTIANS.

All of the Germanic Tribes of Nordic Europe have ALWAYS (since 600 BC, when they first arrived in Nordic Europe) been organized in exactly the same way that Moses organized the Tribes of Israel, for judgment: each Tribe had a “Land,” that was divided into “Thousands,” which were divided into “Hundreds,” which were divided into “Tens.” Every Germanic Land (including England and Scotland) is, to this day, divided into “Shires” (in Britain), which are divided into “Hundreds” (in Southern England, “Hundert-shafts” [“hundred-ships”], in Germany), and “Hundrar” (in Southern Sweden). Those Hundreds are, then, divided down into “Ten-ships” (Town-ships) in England. This has been the Ancestral “Government of the People, by the People, and for the People,” throughout all of their Recorded History, of the Ancestors of the People who divided their Land of the USA that way. They divided their Land into States (or, still, Anglo-Saxon “Commonwealths,” in New England and elsewhere in the east of the USA), which are divided into Counties, which are divided into Townships.

Section 86 of the Doctrine and Covenants concludes:

D&C 86:8. Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the Priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers-

9. For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in God-

10. Therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken of by the mouths of all of the holy prophets since the world began.

11. Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my people Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.

Among the first things that the Lord told the Members of the Restored Church was: “Your first responsibility is to seek after your dead.” Doing that the Church has gathered the most comprehensive Collection of the Records of the Nordic Townships = (in the Latin language of the Romans) “Parishes, Communes, Corporations,” that is available. These Records etc. are widely available to everybody in the world, today.

Since the Ancestral “Government of the People, by the People, and for the People,” of the Christian Germanic Peoples, of Nordic Europe, has always been organized “from the bottom up” - from the Single Man among the Ten in his Tenship, then they in their Hundred, then they in their Thousand, then they in their Land, then all of them in their “Key-ric” (Organization with “the Keys,” “Church” in English), “Key-Reich” or Kirche, in German (and similar names throughout Nordic Europe)

The Details of that Icelandic Story of the Origin of the Christianity of the Germanic Peoples and of its Ancestral Government of the People, by the People, and for the People, are identical with those of the Story of the Origin of the Christianity of the Nephites, as contained in the Book of Mormon, including the name for the Lord (that is used till this day in the Place where LDS Archeologists say seems to have been the location of the Lord’s visit to the Nephites) being the exact same, Hebrew-like name that has always been used throughout Germany as the name for the Lord in the Story of His visit there that established the Nordic People’s Ancestral Way of Life. The attempt by the Assembly of Civil Employees to express the Ancient Hebrew name with which the Lord was named, pronounced, “Yeh-xhoh-shoo-ah,” in Ancient Hebrew, was what resulted in the Greek expression which those Civil Employees pronounced, “Yeh-zoos.”

The top experts in the World on those Records of the Ancient Tenships of Nordic Europe say that those Records provide the Absolute Proof that the Story of the Lord’s Visit to Nordic Europe, in about 40 AD, is true.

Today is the day of the Information Age. That True Information destroys those “lies” that were so strongly riveted in the Creeds of the past.

This Information is there, for anyone to see, in this American, Information Age, over the Internet, for all who want to see it.

The question is, “Who wants to see it?”

All of this Crazy “Real” Story of “The Apostasy,” is there for those who want to know about it. Also, it is easily available, if people will go to the extent of having the Histories of Europe, in all of their Different Languages, translated for them.

Before 1979 Eldred G. Smith was sustained as one of the 16 Prophets, Seers and Revelators, and if all of the other General Authorities would have been wiped out, the Patriarch Smith could stand as head of the Church as The Prophet. Joseph Smith, Sr. was the Church Patriarch as Joseph Smith, Jr. restored the Church. But Joseph Smith's family had been established as the Patriarchal Line of Succession long before the Restoration. (D&C 86:8-11).

The Kings and Queens of Europe deduce their authority to rule and reign today from the blood line of Ing, son of Odin. Joseph Smith, Sr. is also in the line of successive authority from Odin. When during the restoration the LDS Church was putting the whole world on notice that we in our church had the true king of the world, as our Church Patriarch.

This is one of the messages of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel.

The authority of Christ's Church continued from the Primitive Church down through the Smith Family and overseen by the Apostle John.

God Bless,
Darren

[harakim]

This is the subject of speculation. I know some people on this board believe something very different and are quick those hare those beliefs, but I believe the woman described in Revelation 12 is the church of Jesus Christ. My belief is shared by the leaders who were responsible for cross referencing and footnoting the standard works, as demonstrated by the scriptures cross referenced to the word woman in verses 1 and 6.

If this interpretation is correct, then the reference to the woman (the church) fleeing into the wilderness in verse 6 describes the apostasy. Since the apostasy ended in 1830, and assuming the 1,260 days referenced in that verse refer to years, we can conclude the apostasy began in 570 AD. Which leaves me very desirous to learn of the history of the church among various groups. We know the history of the Nephites ended at about 400 AD, but we don't know the history of the church in the Near East, among the Lost Tribes, or within other groups that may have been lead away from Israel.

The cross referencing was done by a computer and verified by (random) people, not church authorities.

Really? That's very interesting. I'm not doubting you, but how in the world did a computer come up with cross-reference "a" in 1 Nephi 2:10 connecting the word "firm" to Ezion-geber?

It was based on the Oxford Bible.
Here is more information:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/11/scriptures?lang=eng

Boyd K Packer: "Several years into the project we asked for a report. How were they progressing with the tedious, laborious listing of topics in alphabetical order? They responded, “We have been through Heaven and Hell, past Love and Lust, and now we’re working toward Repentance."
"Without the inspired help of hundreds of dedicated workers it would have been impossible! Among them were scholars in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Old and New Testament studies. More than this, they are worthy men and women in whose lives the gospel of Jesus Christ is the dominating influence. Their work, if they only knew it, may well be their greatest contribution in mortality."

[gardener4life]

You know I want to revisit and bring up the idea with you guys that it's more important to use and feel the Spirit of God in the scriptures than using the dictionary. If you don't have the spirit or use it then you won't be led to sound ideas. You guys need to look at that first before posting. And 'worthy men and women in whose lives the gospel of Jesus Christ is the dominating influence is true and reflecting that concept.

Some of you are coming up with some stuff that you should rethink if its led by the spirit. Sorry to say that.

Like saying there's no apostasy in the scriptures. Have you read the Old Testament? It's entire theme is apostasy. And apostasy is written everywhere but you have to look beyond one word. Look for 'falling away', famine of hearing the word of the Lord, anything also that says secret combinations is the same as saying apostasy.

Now friends please don't be offended. I'm trying to help you. And you brought up something interesting. But you did say in public that the LDS church had no stable footing when you said there's no apostasy wording. So by being public and saying that there's no way to say you are wrong and still sugar coat it. So please don't be offended. And remember we're friends. Sometimes you have to tell someone that they are about to step in dog crap when you are on a hike together.

[Darren]

So please don't be offended. And remember we're friends. Sometimes you have to tell someone that they are about to step in dog crap when you are on a hike together.

No offense taken. And friends through this forum.

In 1996 I began a website to teach others a message to save the Constitution and principles of Liberty. http://darren.lib.utah.edu, now only found at the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20030501133 ... b.utah.edu I kept that website until in 2005 when I met my Spanish Language Instructor with whom I partnered up with for the distribution of his books on the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel, that are the answer to much of what Patriots and Constitutionalists are searching for. In 2006 i met with and studied with Brian, the webmaster of this LDS Freedom Forum and he got to know me and my friend and is instrumental in the distribution of the related materials. http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousandyears/

Anyways, I have been on an amazing hike, among the lost tribes of Israel. And what I have found on that hike are not land mines from dogs to step in, but answers to previously unanswerable questions. But who cares, as I find that most wannabe church scholars could care less about such things, let alone live by principles that have been discovered that lead us back to the foundations of our free society.

My invitation, as I put that under my avatar, is to join me in the hike, of discovery beyond the "gross darkness" that is causing The Cleansing to come speedily upon our people. The hike that gets us to Zion.

God bless my new friend,
Darren

[Rand]

This is interesting and has always been interesting Darren. I commend you for your determination in digging away at something off the beaten path. I am not sure I buy it all, but, I do believe there is definite truth in what you are sharing. Thanks for sharing. One day we will have all those records in front of us to compare and search.