Your earlier definition of Great Apostasy was incomplete, in that I don't recall your stating that it was regional instead of global as you now clarify.gardener4life wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 9:22 pm Thank you for your wonderful questions. I appreciate your candid wording to help us work together.
We were in this case talking about the early church that Christ left behind in the hands of his apostles in the east. I will confine things to there because I don't think you can mix what was happening between them. They were on different timelines just because that's the way God had them set up (2 Nephi states if many nations knew of this land (America) they would overrun the land and there would be no place for an inheritance). So it wouldn't make sense for me to bring up the Nephite church before because they didn't have physical contact between them according to things temporal. The Nephite civilization and those prophets are a different story altogether.
Basically Christ set up the Nephite church in America to be separate from the church in the East in Asia, and those areas. Part of why they were separate is that they were from separate branches in the tree of Israel that had already been separated when the Solomon's successor decided to tax Israel like it had never taxed before and caused a split and rift in the kingdom that has never been fixed. (That was many years prior, they became the kingdom of Israel as the 10 tribes in the north (and 1/2 of Benjamin), and the Kingdom of Judah (which was actually Judah, half of Benjamin, and a small group of Levites.) This is interesting because Lehi came from the North (he was Manasseh) and Ishmael was from Ephraim. So because they were already split from Judah it eases the feeling that there's a reason why the Lord has kept them separate because of the enmity that was very hot since ancient times between Judah and Ephraim. (He states in the scriptures that when he returns Ephraim shall not vex Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Enmity shall cease.)
The 570 hypothesis is also contradictory towards modern revelation of prophets and apostles in this era, which have taught about the apostasy happening very early on a short time after Christ was resurrected. The idea I stated is not new and is the most credible by even many people outside the LDS church. So you have many people who have studied it their whole lives that have already told you and knew by the power of the Spirit about the 'Great Apostasy' happening very quickly after Christ left. And it makes sense that it would happen quickly because the Romans had a lot of problems, and the Jews were almost ready to be destroyed because of hard hearts. And you had 'Stony Ground' only for seeds of faith to grow in (refer to 1 Nephi for Lehi's tree of life for the meaning of stony ground.) The ideas I gave are fairly standard, correct, and nothing new. But what you guys are trying to say is something new and against what teachers in the church and outside of it have known to be true and a fact since the 1800s. So I would open your mind to another idea, which is that what I wrote was the truth. It was not a long period of time afterwards that the 'Great Apostasy' and death of the early church occurred. And part of the clues surrounding why it was happening so fast was the loss of the people being able to feel the spirit by rejecting God. The Jews rejected the Messiah. They hardened themselves against what little light they had. And other parts of the Roman Empire weren't healthy for christianity yet. Then the Romans cleaned out Jerusalem in AD 70.
First of all the fact that every single apostle of Christ's was martyred....and to ignore that don't you think that's highly unusual? It doesn't lend weight to any continuity scenario's credibility. For a Church to have continued past the 1st century AD someone would have had to have survived or not been cut off from the church (John exiled to Patmos. There he tried to still do what he could but he was isolated and cut off.)
I already defined the Great Apostasy. So I will show you again. --> I showed it by describing loss of; priesthood authority (by the laying on of hands), priesthood keys, prophets and apostles, ordinances (by those called of God having his authority), and inspired teaching by the Spirit that is unaffected by the world and not based on selling it through materialism. Those are the necessary organs of Christ's church. (Isn't it interesting that money isn't a necessary organ? We think it would be hard to not have money. But it's also exciting that something could treat each other and be happy and accept others without money being the focus. Isn't that wonderful?)
I'm not familiar with modern prophets stating the apostasy happened very soon after the resurrection of Christ; I will have to research this. But I understand that Christians were guided to depart Jerusalem before the Romans took care of business in 70, so I anticipate there was organization and revelation at that time.
And I expect there are several more branches from the tame olive tree scattered throughout the vineyard. But, to my perspective, a great apostasy is much more than a regional occurrence.
I know what you're getting at, but you got it backwards. John the Baptist restored the Aaronic priesthood. BUT...You could say OK, there was first a minor apostasy when the Church was told by Christ (refer to the Book of Acts) to pull the gospel from the Jews and give it to the Gentiles. That would be a Jerusalem and Israel apostasy. But things didn't end there. Persecution followed them throughout the world in a very short time. More than stating the apostasy was tied to land you could say it was tied to there being no possible way whatsoever for those people to meet someone with the priesthood of God, by the laying on off hands and by a priesthood line of authority tied to Christ.
Also the loss of the priesthood refers to the loss of a Aaronic priesthood and a loss of Melchizedek Priesthood. (Also priesthood line of Authority is very important. For example. Joseph Smith received his priesthood from Peter James and John, who received it from Jesus, who received it from Heavenly Father (Aaronic priesthood.) Then later he received the Melchizedek Priesthood, by John the Baptist, as a resurrected being. That's how important the priesthood is. Line of authority in priesthood is very important and you also have mentions of this is the Old Testament book of Nehemiah.)
If the apostasy wasn't global, couldn't mortals have ordained Joseph Smith?
The concept of heavens being closed is a Catholic belief I haven't heard taught by general authorities and don't accept. When the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from the Nephites in Mormon, Mormon and later Moroni were able to receive revelation.So if you think about it this way...God's priesthood can't give themselves the priesthood if they don't have it already. And it's passed by ordination by the laying on off hands, not by selling it or selling it through a college. (No offense.) Also the priesthood's aim is to care for others and not to make a business out of it. Ordinances require the priesthood. Inspired teaching requires a connection with God. That doesn't mean that there aren't good people that want to do right. There are many instances of many thousands of heroic people in the Middle and Dark Ages but they didn't live in an enlightened era. (People like Joan of Arc for example is my favorite.) If the heavens are closed which can happen for many reasons you have a loss of a church being able to function.
I also don't accept that knowledge of the Nephites was being kept from the old world. The Romans didn't expand their empire beyond the Italian peninsula until the 3rd century BC. One group they needed to be kept from is the Jaredites. The last prophet of Omni said he lived in the time of Mosiah and Benjamin, and it was during the time of Mosiah that Coriatumur was found. Therefore we can be confident that at least 300 years, probably close to 400 years after Lehi's company arrived in the promised land the Jaredite nation collapsed. They could have displaced or wiped out the Nephites for centuries, and I see no reason to conclude there were no other nations on the North American continent at the time.Now when you have a great apostasy it does generally mean something widespread and was basically in as much of the world as those people could go to and move in. They couldn't cross the ocean to go get the gospel from the Nephites. Crossing the sea would have been very hard and dangerous for them in just crossing the Mediterranean and that was small. And roman vessels for the ocean focused on oar rowing by slaves rather than a good design for sails still during that time period. (One of the reasons the Roman navy's vessels won against the celts sailing ships was because the Roman's fought them when the wind had died on the ocean so they could use their oars advantage against them. And the celtic ships didn't really do oars as much but had heavy usage of sails. This contributed to the downfall of the Celts.)
Small reminder; we are in the spirit of friendship and brotherhood. Not competition. I am not competing with you but just helping you understand the scriptures as they are found in the Book of Mormon and the Bible as they are meant to be.
Thanks for the reference to Romans vs Celts. I will have to look into that campaign.
And keep challenging my beliefs and assertions. Challenges to my beliefs motivate study and contemplation, leading me to either better understand my beliefs or change them.