Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

[iWriteStuff]

Below are excerpts from my favorite book, Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley. I've been giving this book out to friends and family for years. Not even one of them has read it yet. Perhaps it is too big, too long to be easily digestible. Perhaps the language is too difficult. Whatever the case may be, I feel like the Law of Consecration deserves more attention. I believe building Zion is our highest calling. This subject never receives the attention it needs, in my opinion, so I will give it fair time here, though no one may choose to read it or contemplate the principles contained herein.

I begin with the purpose of the book, as expressed by Hugh Nibley himself:

"All my life I have shied away from these disturbing and highly unpopular—even offensive—themes [the uses of money]. But I cannot do so any longer, because in my old age I have taken to reading the scriptures and there have had it forced upon my reluctant attention, that from the time of Adam to the present day, Zion has been pitted against Babylon, and the name of the game has always been money—"power and gain".

Some thoughts on money:

"The miraculous power of money lies above all in the faith that it can stop the ravages of time. As the vigor of youth wanes, accumulating fortune can guarantee that time's effects will be minimized. The scriptures also speak of money as the most irresistible of all agencies of change in one direction. They call it a deadly cancer which once started cannot be stopped (James 5:3; Mormon 8:38). It is called filthy and nasty in the letter to Titus (Titus 1:7, 11). In 1 Timothy it is called the great deceiver whose deceptions lead always to ruin (1 Timothy 5:6). Repeatedly in the Book of Mormon we are told that when people "set their hearts upon riches," their doom is sealed. When the obsession for power and gain overcomes everything else in its final stages, it preempts the whole program of change."

"To make merchandise of another's necessity is an offense to human dignity."

What is success?

"The same requirements are made of rich and poor, namely a broken heart and contrite spirit, contentment with sufficiency (1 Timothy 6:5-8), no envy of another's possessions, no preoccupation of getting more, not acquiring by the labor of others. God rejects all our rationalizations, our fervid moral tone and glorification of those traits of character that lead to success."

How about the environment?

"As President Joseph F. Smith put it, "Things upon the earth, so far as they have not been perverted by wickedness, are typical of things in heaven. Heaven was the prototype of this beautiful creation when it came from the hand of the Creator, and was pronounced 'good.'"5 There you have the environment of Zion; and for a foretaste of it, all we have to do is go to the canyons and look around us. For the earth comes from the hand of the Creator most glorious and beautiful, with great rivers, small streams, and mountains and hills to give variety and beauty to the scene, designed by God as a place of beauty and delight. That is the way we must keep it."

The importance of the Law of Consecration:

"In giving his children the law, God repeatedly specifies that he is placing before them two ways, the ways of life and death, light and darkness. For parallel to the one law runs another. It is part of the plan that Satan should be allowed to try us and to tempt us to see whether we would prove faithful in all things: Who does not live up to every covenant made with the Lord will be in his power (cf. Moses 4:4, 5:23). So we find ourselves drawn in two directions (Moroni 7:11-13). Thus this life becomes a special test of probation set before us in this world—it is an economic one. If the law of consecration is the supreme test of virtue—the final one—money is to be the supreme temptation to vice; sex runs a poor second, but on both counts, this is the time and place for us to meet the challenge of the flesh. It is the weakness of the flesh in both cases to prove our spirits stronger than the pull of matter, to assert our command over the new medium of physical bodies before proceeding onward to another state of existence. As Brigham Young often repeats, "God has given us the things of this world to see what we will do with them." The test will be whether we will set our hearts on the four things that lead to destruction. Whoever seeks for (1) wealth, (2) power, (3) popularity, and (4) the pleasures of the flesh—anyone who seeks those will be destroyed, says the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 22:23; 3 Nephi 6:15). Need we point out that those four things compose the whole substance of success in the present-day world. They are the things that money will get you."

**As a side note, anyone who wants a copy of the book in PDF format can message me with your email address and I will happily send you a copy.

[iWriteStuff]

Zion vs. Babylon:

"Saints start out building up Zion and end up building Babylon. Brigham Young said exactly the same thing in language just as strong when the Saints got to the valley: "Have we not brought Babylon with us? Are we not promoting Babylon here in our midst? Are we not fostering the spirit of Babylon that is now abroad on the face of the whole earth? I ask myself this question, and I answer, Yes, yes, . . . we have too much of Babylon in our midst."21 It is hard for us to envisage the concept of Zion, let alone Paradise, when we have been so long accustomed to living in Babylon. We are disquieted by vague images of people wandering around in gardens apparently with nothing to do. Far more appealing to us are the vigor and give-and-take and drama of the marketplace...

"The world today is about as different from Zion as any world possibly can be. In fact, it has reached the point, the Lord has told us in emphatic terms, where he is about to remove the whole thing—sweep the slate clean, that Zion may be established."
- Approaching Zion, Ch. 1: Our Glory or Our Condemnation

[David13]

I don't like it. I don't like it at all.
I think he has it all too extreme, too black and white.
First, money has no inherent value. It's only value is as a means of exchange.
We do something for someone. They do something for us. It's easiest and most convenient to put that into a token. Thus we use the dollar.
We are not skilled in building the Temple. We tithe in dollars to allow the church to pay those skilled to do it.
Etc.
Money can't stop time.
Nothing, no one is so black and white that they can't accumulate wealth and then not be philanthropic. They can do both. I have seen it. They get to a point where their emphasis is no longer more money, but more giving.
This is no other way.
Complaining about providing for the necessities for other is just a slander on the farmers. Of course they have to profit from it, first to want to do it, second to be able to afford to do it, and third, to feed themselves and their families, and to do charity.

You have convinced me Nibley became nothing but a nutty, bitter old man who didn't understand the world.
dc

[David13]

Zion vs. Babylon:

"Saints start out building up Zion and end up building Babylon. Brigham Young said exactly the same thing in language just as strong when the Saints got to the valley: "Have we not brought Babylon with us? Are we not promoting Babylon here in our midst? Are we not fostering the spirit of Babylon that is now abroad on the face of the whole earth? I ask myself this question, and I answer, Yes, yes, . . . we have too much of Babylon in our midst."21 It is hard for us to envisage the concept of Zion, let alone Paradise, when we have been so long accustomed to living in Babylon. We are disquieted by vague images of people wandering around in gardens apparently with nothing to do. Far more appealing to us are the vigor and give-and-take and drama of the marketplace...

"The world today is about as different from Zion as any world possibly can be. In fact, it has reached the point, the Lord has told us in emphatic terms, where he is about to remove the whole thing—sweep the slate clean, that Zion may be established."
- Approaching Zion, Ch. 1: Our Glory or Our Condemnation

Where is the balance? Where is the productivity? Where is the prosperity that provides for charity?

I think Brigham Young was merely saying too many are becoming too materialistic.

I have known quite a few very wealthy people who got to, or maybe were always at a point where they were not materialistic. They drove poor or so so cars, wore regular looking clothes, and were ready at a moments notice to help on a financial scale that few others could.

I think that's where Brigham Young was.

If we start to admire so much that garden with idlers wandering, far too many start to think Zion is socialism or communism. It ain't! No fancy, college edacated way of sayin' that. Just it ain't.

We will have an idle garden, but I don't think it's on earth.

Where is Enoch? On earth? No.

What else have you got?
dc

Are Zion and the Garden of Eden the same place? If not, how do they differ?

[iWriteStuff]

You have convinced me Nibley became nothing but a nutty, bitter old man who didn't understand the world.
dc

To which he responded:

"Is the law of consecration "unworldly"? Of course it is! I have accepted the law of God and the law of obedience, accepting "this commandment, that ye bind yourselves by this covenant, and it shall be done according to the laws of the Lord" (D&C 82:15); it is "for your good" (D&C 82:16), though you may want to do it your way. "That's all very well for the next world," I may say, "but in this world there is a lot of dirty work that must be done; we can think of the ivory tower later on." I have noticed that the people who say that are never the people who do the dirty work but have others do it for them through the exercise of useful legal fictions. "Your sins . . . are not pardoned, because you seek to counsel in your own ways. And your hearts are not satisfied. And ye obey not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness. Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls. . . . Wo unto you poor men . . . whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!" (D&C 56:14-17). What do the two have in common? Both want riches; "ye are cursed because of your riches, and also are your riches cursed because ye have set your hearts upon them" (Helaman 13:21)."

The cardinal sin is not possessing money but obsessing over it - a sin of which both poor and rich can be found guilty.

[iWriteStuff]

I think that's where Brigham Young was.

In the last years of his life, Brigham Young tried to reinstitute the Law of Consecration by way of United Order-like settlements all over the territory. That's about as far from trying to hoard goods to oneself as you can get. As Brigham said,

"No revelation that was ever given is more easy of comprehension than that on the law of consecration. When the Lord spoke to Joseph, instructing him to counsel the people to consecrate their possessions, and deed them over to the Church in a covenant that cannot be broken, would the people listen to it? No, but they began to find out that they were mistaken, and had only acknowledged with their mouths that the things which they possessed were the Lord's."

"It was one of the first commandments or revelations given to this people after they had the privilege of organizing themselves as a Church, as a body, as the kingdom of God on earth. I observed then, and I now think, [as Moses says] that it will be one of the last revelations which the people will receive into their hearts and understandings, of their own free will and choice and esteem it as a pleasure, a privilege, and a blessing unto them to observe and keep most holy."

[David13]

You have convinced me Nibley became nothing but a nutty, bitter old man who didn't understand the world.
dc

To which he responded:

"Is the law of consecration "unworldly"? Of course it is! I have accepted the law of God and the law of obedience, accepting "this commandment, that ye bind yourselves by this covenant, and it shall be done according to the laws of the Lord" (D&C 82:15); it is "for your good" (D&C 82:16), though you may want to do it your way. "That's all very well for the next world," I may say, "but in this world there is a lot of dirty work that must be done; we can think of the ivory tower later on." I have noticed that the people who say that are never the people who do the dirty work but have others do it for them through the exercise of useful legal fictions. "Your sins . . . are not pardoned, because you seek to counsel in your own ways. And your hearts are not satisfied. And ye obey not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness. Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls. . . . Wo unto you poor men . . . whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!" (D&C 56:14-17). What do the two have in common? Both want riches; "ye are cursed because of your riches, and also are your riches cursed because ye have set your hearts upon them" (Helaman 13:21)."

The cardinal sin is not possessing money but obsessing over it - a sin of which both poor and rich can be found guilty.

I guess I have to look to my own example, myself.
I never obsessed over money. I never shunned work with my hands, I sought it, but mostly found other work. I still seek work with my own hands. But they propose to give me a desk job.
I have always gave what I could to the poor, but the real poor, not those outside the liquor store "spare change, man".
I never took nor sought other men's, nor women's goods. I never had greed or envy, I have always accepted what I have and who I am. Perhaps been far too content with it too many times.

I never set me heart or mind on riches.

And I am hardly any great example. As I say, I have known quite a few wealthy souls who live the same way. Merely that circumstances put them into a place where they had rather good income. I guess if they were the venal type like mentioned, I shunned or avoided them. That's how I ended up with them.

I'm trying to follow along with you. Just you have lost me along the way. What is the conclusion? Where is the conclusion. Zion? What, when how and where?

In this lifetime? Or hereafter?
dc

[iWriteStuff]

Moreover, again quoting Brigham Young from 1876, in his last years:

"Some of our Elders, and, in fact, some of the Twelve will tell you, "Yes, yes, the Order is a splendid principle and will bring happiness, etc., but it is not hardly time to enter into it, wait a little while until the people understand it a little better." Why, they are fools! They don't know what they talk about. They have ears to hear and will not hearken, and have eyes to see and will not understand. . . . When our conduct hedges up the way of angels how can they bless us? How can they help us to work out our salvation? . . . When Joseph Smith was alive I can say that I never heard him lay one plan out for the people but [that] would have been a success if it had been carried out as he directed. And I have seen the same in myself. I don't care how the world goes, what the President (of the U.S.) or his emissaries do. It matters nothing to me. What I am thinking of and interested about is how do the Latter-day Saints do? . . . The devil is in the community and he has not been turned out. Well, I still have hope in Israel."

He felt this passionately about living the law of consecration in last days of his life that he made it a priority over everything else. Pretty strong sentiment. We haven't even tried it since then.

[David13]

I think that's where Brigham Young was.

In the last years of his life, Brigham Young tried to reinstitute the Law of Consecration by way of United Order-like settlements all over the territory. That's about as far from trying to hoard goods to oneself as you can get. As Brigham said,

"No revelation that was ever given is more easy of comprehension than that on the law of consecration. When the Lord spoke to Joseph, instructing him to counsel the people to consecrate their possessions, and deed them over to the Church in a covenant that cannot be broken, would the people listen to it? No, but they began to find out that they were mistaken, and had only acknowledged with their mouths that the things which they possessed were the Lord's."

"It was one of the first commandments or revelations given to this people after they had the privilege of organizing themselves as a Church, as a body, as the kingdom of God on earth. I observed then, and I now think, [as Moses says] that it will be one of the last revelations which the people will receive into their hearts and understandings, of their own free will and choice and esteem it as a pleasure, a privilege, and a blessing unto them to observe and keep most holy."

I have a lot of respect for Brigham Young. I think he kept a good balance between Zion and Babylon.

However, he has been heartily criticized for self dealing, not separating his assets from the church's, for dealing as if he were the church, etc.
What is the truth?
dc

[marc]

I own a copy of this book and currently reading it. So much truth and clarity. Hugh Nibley got it. For a "learned man," he understood what Nephi said about being learned. I don't know if he practiced what he preached, but I believe he did. The book is no more difficult to understand than Talmage's Jesus the Christ. Both are plain to the understanding. Most people's hearts, including and especially Mormons, are so set upon the things of the world, that the things of God do not really concern them.

[iWriteStuff]

I'm trying to follow along with you. Just you have lost me along the way. What is the conclusion? Where is the conclusion. Zion? What, when how and where?

In this lifetime? Or hereafter?
dc

Sounds like you're on the right path. Kudos, my friend!

As per the questions:

What is Zion:

"We'd better say a few things about Zion here. Zion is a code word denoting a very real thing. Zion is any community in which the celestial order prevails. Zion is "the pure in heart" (D&C 97:21), but Zion is also a real city or any number of real cities. It is a constant; it is unchanging. There are Zions among all the worlds, and there are Zions that come and go.4 Zion is a constant in time and place—it belongs to the order of the eternities. We're not making Zion here, but we're preparing the ground to receive it. As the Lord says, "My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom" (D&C 136:31). We must be prepared to receive this glory; we don't produce it ourselves. We must be ready, so that we won't die of shock when we get it."

"What is this ideal Zion like? In the last days, we are told, it will be a place of refuge in a doomed world. "It shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; . . . and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, . . . and it shall be called Zion" (D&C 45:66-67). At that time, "every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety" (D&C 45:68). And the wicked shall say that Zion is terrible. Terrible because it is indestructible. Her invulnerability makes her an object of awe and terror. As Enoch said, "Surely Zion shall dwell in safety forever. But the Lord said unto Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed" (Moses 7:20). So Zion was taken away and the rest destroyed. Zion itself is never in danger; on the contrary, it alone offers safety to the world, "that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth" (D&C 115:6). It would seem that Zion enjoys the complete security of a bit of the celestial world and that nothing can touch it as long as it retains the character. But celestial order it must be. As we have seen, Zion cannot be built up "unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom" (D&C 105:5). It must at all times be holy enough to receive the Lord himself in person. "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation" (Psalm 132:13); "Behold mine abode forever" (Moses 7:21). Zion is heaven. It is where God lives. A bit of heaven indeed."

When is Zion?

"Zion comes and goes. When the world cannot support Zion, Zion is not destroyed but taken back home. "And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations," says Moses 7:31. And when the world is qualified to receive Zion, "there shall be mine abode, and it shall be Zion, which shall come forth out of all the creations which I have made" (Moses 7:64). Accordingly, the ancient prophets of Israel yearned for the time when Zion would be restored again. Jeremiah and Isaiah hoped to see Zion restored in their time. They certainly knew it would come in a later day."

How do we build Zion?

Well, that is the purpose of the entire book - to describe how. More to follow!

[David13]

I own a copy of this book and currently reading it. So much truth and clarity. Hugh Nibley got it. For a "learned man," he understood what Nephi said about being learned. I don't know if he practiced what he preached, but I believe he did. The book is no more difficult to understand than Talmage's Jesus the Christ. Both are plain to the understanding. Most people's hearts, including and especially Mormons, are so set upon the things of the world, that the things of God do not really concern them.

I wholeheartedly got to disagree with that also.
Maybe you know and associate with different people than I do, or a different type.
I tend to avoid those people, and have throughout my life, but I have not avoided successful people. Just some certain ones.
Yes, I have known those who would lie, cheat and steal to get more money. I ran from them as fast as I could.

I have heard the personal stories about Nibley and his personal life.

But I just don't agree that these people are so set upon the things of the world. I have seen them, perhaps not all, no, but many, nearly all, with a very serious concern of the things of God.

Now, I'm far from the "Wasatch Front" the great metropolis, Salt Lake, and it's surroundings, and quite gladly so. Maybe that's what you guys are talking about. I think both Nibley and B Young were there.
dc

[iWriteStuff]

I think that's where Brigham Young was.

In the last years of his life, Brigham Young tried to reinstitute the Law of Consecration by way of United Order-like settlements all over the territory. That's about as far from trying to hoard goods to oneself as you can get. As Brigham said,

"No revelation that was ever given is more easy of comprehension than that on the law of consecration. When the Lord spoke to Joseph, instructing him to counsel the people to consecrate their possessions, and deed them over to the Church in a covenant that cannot be broken, would the people listen to it? No, but they began to find out that they were mistaken, and had only acknowledged with their mouths that the things which they possessed were the Lord's."

"It was one of the first commandments or revelations given to this people after they had the privilege of organizing themselves as a Church, as a body, as the kingdom of God on earth. I observed then, and I now think, [as Moses says] that it will be one of the last revelations which the people will receive into their hearts and understandings, of their own free will and choice and esteem it as a pleasure, a privilege, and a blessing unto them to observe and keep most holy."

I have a lot of respect for Brigham Young. I think he kept a good balance between Zion and Babylon.

I don't think there is such a thing as "a good balance between Zion and Babylon", and I don't think Brigham tried to maintain one. As he said himself,

"I am sorry that this people are worldly-minded. . . . Their affections are upon . . . their farms, upon their property, their houses and possessions, and in the same ratio that this is the case, the Holy Spirit of God—the spirit of their calling—forsakes them, and they are overcome with the spirit of the evil one."

To summarize: In the exact same ratio that you become worldly-minded, you are forsaking the Spirit. Again,

"I know that there is no man on this earth who can call around him property, be he a merchant, tradesman, or [farmer], with his mind continually occupied with: 'How shall I get this or that; how rich can I get?' . . . No such man ever can magnify the priesthood nor enter the celestial kingdom. In my young days I had to quit the business of painting purely because I had either to be dishonest or quit; and I quit."

What did Brigham consider sufficient?

"If we have our hundreds or thousands, we may foster the idea that we have nothing more than we need; but such a notion is entirely erroneous, for our real wants are very limited. What do we absolutely need? I possess everything on the face of the earth that I need, as I appear before you on this stand."

I could go digging for another quote, but I think we can take Brigham at his word when he said he didn't consider anything actually his - it was all the Lord's.

[iWriteStuff]

But I just don't agree that these people are so set upon the things of the world. I have seen them, perhaps not all, no, but many, nearly all, with a very serious concern of the things of God.

Now, I'm far from the "Wasatch Front" the great metropolis, Salt Lake, and it's surroundings, and quite gladly so. Maybe that's what you guys are talking about. I think both Nibley and B Young were there.
dc

To my knowledge, I haven't accused anyone of being set upon the things of the world. If anything, it's a genuine human condition and all must overcome it. Me included. Joseph called out the saints for worldliness, as did Brigham. Both called it as they saw it. I think if we are being fair, and critically examine ourselves, there is always a bit of worldliness left that we could do without. That's what living a celestial law is all about - start with ourselves and repent where necessary.

I would suggest that clinging to Babylon is a rather difficult thing to diagnose, though. This is partly because 1) it's so normal in our culture and 2) we don't often think of it as a bad thing. We say "In the world and not of the world" almost like an excuse and then continue with business as usual. Putting Zion first requires a rearranging of priorities, I think, and that only comes after an awareness of what Zion is and how we build it.

[marc]

I own a copy of this book and currently reading it. So much truth and clarity. Hugh Nibley got it. For a "learned man," he understood what Nephi said about being learned. I don't know if he practiced what he preached, but I believe he did. The book is no more difficult to understand than Talmage's Jesus the Christ. Both are plain to the understanding. Most people's hearts, including and especially Mormons, are so set upon the things of the world, that the things of God do not really concern them.

I wholeheartedly got to disagree with that also.
Maybe you know and associate with different people than I do, or a different type.
I tend to avoid those people, and have throughout my life, but I have not avoided successful people. Just some certain ones.
Yes, I have known those who would lie, cheat and steal to get more money. I ran from them as fast as I could.

I have heard the personal stories about Nibley and his personal life.

But I just don't agree that these people are so set upon the things of the world. I have seen them, perhaps not all, no, but many, nearly all, with a very serious concern of the things of God.

Now, I'm far from the "Wasatch Front" the great metropolis, Salt Lake, and it's surroundings, and quite gladly so. Maybe that's what you guys are talking about. I think both Nibley and B Young were there.
dc

I never knew Nibley and certainly not Young so I won't speculate there. I was a business man in Utah (general contractor, etc) for decades, especially along the Wasatch Front. I witnessed first hand the kind of mentality most LDS businessmen have that I engaged, including vendors, bankers, real estate agents, etc. I'm also not from Utah and have interacted with members in other countries. One thing that cannot be debated or denied, and that is that after nearly 200 years, Zion is not found on the earth-not among all the Christian organizations and certainly not in the LDS church where we covenant in the temple to obey five laws, which if obeyed, would establish Zion. I also know that for much of my life, I was part of the problem.

[iWriteStuff]

BTW I should add that I am literally using Brigham Young quotes straight out of Approaching Zion. Brigham was one of the biggest advocates of forsaking Babylon and building Zion. That's one of the things that makes him one of my personal heroes.

Full Disclosure: I read Approaching Zion every couple of years to keep myself centered. It is so easy to get drawn back into Babylon that I don't even notice it happening. I require a good smack upside the head to keep me in line.

[Arenera]

The Saints should not be "in a hurry" to obtain wealth, he cautioned; they should entertain no preoccupations with acquiring the goods of this world. Rather they should attend to their prayers, ask for forgiveness before the Lord, and seek the Lord's protection from temptation; "Guide your steps aright, that you may do something" (JD 15:36-37).

Don't you try to fill your own dish; to attempt to do so is to partake of the spirit of Babylon. If the Lord wishes an individual to have more than a sufficiency for basic needs, he will so provide: "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8); the sole justification for "seeking" any surplus is to bless the poor, whose presence among us is, as it were, a test of our commitment.

Some questions:
Do you work for money?

If you don't watch TV, movies, smart phones, what do you spend your time on?

[iWriteStuff]

The Saints should not be "in a hurry" to obtain wealth, he cautioned; they should entertain no preoccupations with acquiring the goods of this world. Rather they should attend to their prayers, ask for forgiveness before the Lord, and seek the Lord's protection from temptation; "Guide your steps aright, that you may do something" (JD 15:36-37).

Don't you try to fill your own dish; to attempt to do so is to partake of the spirit of Babylon. If the Lord wishes an individual to have more than a sufficiency for basic needs, he will so provide: "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8); the sole justification for "seeking" any surplus is to bless the poor, whose presence among us is, as it were, a test of our commitment.

Some questions:
Do you work for money?

Sure. Who doesn't? The real questions are "What do you do with that money?" and "What importance does money have in your life?"

If you don't watch TV, movies, smart phones, what do you spend your time on?

That's easy - books, projects, home improvements, service work, or my favorite thing ever - my family! Brigham Young explained once that the only real capital we possess is our time!!! How you spend it is the best way to demonstrate good stewardship!

[Arenera]

The Saints should not be "in a hurry" to obtain wealth, he cautioned; they should entertain no preoccupations with acquiring the goods of this world. Rather they should attend to their prayers, ask for forgiveness before the Lord, and seek the Lord's protection from temptation; "Guide your steps aright, that you may do something" (JD 15:36-37).

Don't you try to fill your own dish; to attempt to do so is to partake of the spirit of Babylon. If the Lord wishes an individual to have more than a sufficiency for basic needs, he will so provide: "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8); the sole justification for "seeking" any surplus is to bless the poor, whose presence among us is, as it were, a test of our commitment.

Some questions:
Do you work for money?

Sure. Who doesn't? The real questions are "What do you do with that money?" and "What importance does money have in your life?"

If you don't watch TV, movies, smart phones, what do you spend your time on?

That's easy - books, projects, home improvements, service work, or my favorite thing ever - my family! Brigham Young explained once that the only real capital we possess is our time!!! How you spend it is the best way to demonstrate good stewardship!

Good responses.

The only change worthy of pursuit is repentance.

[mes5464]

I'm trying to follow along with you. Just you have lost me along the way. What is the conclusion? Where is the conclusion. Zion? What, when how and where?

In this lifetime? Or hereafter?
dc

Sounds like you're on the right path. Kudos, my friend!

As per the questions:

What is Zion:

"We'd better say a few things about Zion here. Zion is a code word denoting a very real thing. Zion is any community in which the celestial order prevails. Zion is "the pure in heart" (D&C 97:21), but Zion is also a real city or any number of real cities. It is a constant; it is unchanging. There are Zions among all the worlds, and there are Zions that come and go.4 Zion is a constant in time and place—it belongs to the order of the eternities. We're not making Zion here, but we're preparing the ground to receive it. As the Lord says, "My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom" (D&C 136:31). We must be prepared to receive this glory; we don't produce it ourselves. We must be ready, so that we won't die of shock when we get it."

"What is this ideal Zion like? In the last days, we are told, it will be a place of refuge in a doomed world. "It shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; . . . and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, . . . and it shall be called Zion" (D&C 45:66-67). At that time, "every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety" (D&C 45:68). And the wicked shall say that Zion is terrible. Terrible because it is indestructible. Her invulnerability makes her an object of awe and terror. As Enoch said, "Surely Zion shall dwell in safety forever. But the Lord said unto Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed" (Moses 7:20). So Zion was taken away and the rest destroyed. Zion itself is never in danger; on the contrary, it alone offers safety to the world, "that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth" (D&C 115:6). It would seem that Zion enjoys the complete security of a bit of the celestial world and that nothing can touch it as long as it retains the character. But celestial order it must be. As we have seen, Zion cannot be built up "unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom" (D&C 105:5). It must at all times be holy enough to receive the Lord himself in person. "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation" (Psalm 132:13); "Behold mine abode forever" (Moses 7:21). Zion is heaven. It is where God lives. A bit of heaven indeed."

When is Zion?

"Zion comes and goes. When the world cannot support Zion, Zion is not destroyed but taken back home. "And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations," says Moses 7:31. And when the world is qualified to receive Zion, "there shall be mine abode, and it shall be Zion, which shall come forth out of all the creations which I have made" (Moses 7:64). Accordingly, the ancient prophets of Israel yearned for the time when Zion would be restored again. Jeremiah and Isaiah hoped to see Zion restored in their time. They certainly knew it would come in a later day."

How do we build Zion?

Well, that is the purpose of the entire book - to describe how. More to follow!

This is the problem I have with conversations (and books) about Zion. We never talk about the meet of what needs done, just what the outcome should be.

What exactly must be done to achieve Zion?

1. Does everyone have a home?
2. Does everyone have one set of clothing? Two sets of clothing?
3. Does everyone have a pair of shoes?
4. Does everyone have a car?
5. Does everyone only eat what they grow?
6. Must you have a cow to have milk or can you buy milk?
7. Do we use money or barter?
8. Do you turn in all your extra so a person who doesn't have milk can take some home? (Barter again, just centralized.)
9. Do we have taxes?
10. Do we have law enforcement? Is there crime?
11. What form of government (if any) will we have?

Neither, the general authorities nor Nibley answer these questions because I don't think they know. I don't think we know because we don't start. I think the only way we can learn HOW to live a Zion life is by revelation from the Holy Ghost that comes because we start making changes (and mistakes) until we FEEL our way through the process. I have a list of things I think makes a good start for approaching Zion but we will never know until we are will to try the experiment. Faith precedes the miracle, we can't expect to achieve Zion until we start trying to live Zion.

I also call BS on the idea that we can all start building Zion in our hearts, that we can live a Zion life singularly. Every single metric for measuring a Zion life is a collective one, how do we compare to each other, not individually.

A people of one heart and mind.
No poor among them.
All things in common.

There is nothing about these that is individual, it is about relationships, one to another. You cannot achieve Zion alone. Zion is a community.

[Rand]

I also call BS on the idea that we can all start building Zion in our hearts, that we can live a Zion life singularly. Every single metric for measuring a Zion life is a collective one, how do we compare to each other, not individually.


There is nothing about these that is individual, it is about relationships, one to another. You cannot achieve Zion alone. Zion is a community.

Christ did....

[mes5464]

I also call BS on the idea that we can all start building Zion in our hearts, that we can live a Zion life singularly. Every single metric for measuring a Zion life is a collective one, how do we compare to each other, not individually.


There is nothing about these that is individual, it is about relationships, one to another. You cannot achieve Zion alone. Zion is a community.

Christ did....

Not true. Christ was perfect but He never achieved Zion. The only accounts we have of Zion are the City of Enoch, the city founded by Melchizedek, and perhaps the Nephites after the visit of Christ to the Americas.

[iWriteStuff]

I also call BS on the idea that we can all start building Zion in our hearts, that we can live a Zion life singularly. Every single metric for measuring a Zion life is a collective one, how do we compare to each other, not individually.

A people of one heart and mind.
No poor among them.
All things in common.

There is nothing about these that is individual, it is about relationships, one to another. You cannot achieve Zion alone. Zion is a community.

+100 on your post!

Have you read Approaching Zion? I think you would find he agrees with your sentiment precisely - it is something that must be approached together. He also points out that the Doctrine and Covenants is actually a very good blueprint for how it should be done - Joseph Smith himself had city plans, layouts, economic orders, and stewardships all laid out for the actual accomplishment of a Zion community.

But what must come first? The doctrine of Zion. Even before a community can enter into the United Order, they must understand what it is and what they are agreeing to. Even then, I don't think you can fully understand it until you live it. It's hard. There must be a willingness first to attempt hard things - to sacrifice. That's the whole path of the gospel. If you reflect on it, that is the sequence represented in temple covenants, leading up to the final one you make. It is a purification process leading up to the most challenging of all celestial laws.

Has anyone tried praying for opportunities to live the law of consecration more fully? If so, would you care to share your experience?

[iWriteStuff]

Not true. Christ was perfect but He never achieved Zion. The only accounts we have of Zion are the City of Enoch, the city founded by Melchizedek, and perhaps the Nephites after the visit of Christ to the Americas.

I think Zion has existed in microcosms for short periods of time, too. The early apostolic church attempted to have all things in common. So did the people of Alma in Mosiah 18. I find it particularly interesting that the people of Alma in Mosiah 18 were outcasts from the world, yet had all things in common and were a brotherhood unique in Nephite society. The most interesting part is that it all occurred in a place called "Mormon". Where do you think the later prophet got his name? Nothing certain or doctrinal about this, but I do find it interesting that his name is tied to a time and location where the faithful members of the church were living in exile from the world and yet were attempting to build a Zion society.

But yes, the best examples are the ones already mentioned....

[mes5464]

I also call BS on the idea that we can all start building Zion in our hearts, that we can live a Zion life singularly. Every single metric for measuring a Zion life is a collective one, how do we compare to each other, not individually.

A people of one heart and mind.
No poor among them.
All things in common.

There is nothing about these that is individual, it is about relationships, one to another. You cannot achieve Zion alone. Zion is a community.

+100 on your post!

Have you read Approaching Zion? I think you would find he agrees with your sentiment precisely - it is something that must be approached together. He also points out that the Doctrine and Covenants is actually a very good blueprint for how it should be done - Joseph Smith himself had city plans, layouts, economic orders, and stewardships all laid out for the actual accomplishment of a Zion community.

But what must come first? The doctrine of Zion. Even before a community can enter into the United Order, they must understand what it is and what they are agreeing to. Even then, I don't think you can fully understand it until you live it. It's hard. There must be a willingness first to attempt hard things - to sacrifice. That's the whole path of the gospel. If you reflect on it, that is the sequence represented in temple covenants, leading up to the final one you make. It is a purification process leading up to the most challenging of all celestial laws.

Has anyone tried praying for opportunities to live the law of consecration more fully? If so, would you care to share your experience?

I agree that everyone enters into a Zion lifestyle really needs to know what they are getting themselves into. I think that a Zion life is the opposite of what we live now and so it will take a considerable amount of education and preparation to get people prepared to live a Zion life. And I think that is the root of my point, we do not discuss what it really means to live a Zion life. We talk about abstract, theoretical concepts without talking about the specifics of what those concepts mean.

1. How does one have all things in common? Does one own personal property?
2. How does a man provide food for his family on a daily basis?
3. How does one provide clothing? Do they have to grow cotton, weave it fabric, and make clothing? Can they buy the cotton? Can they buy the fabric? Can they buy ready made clothing?

I think, when we talk about a modern day Zion people, one group of people that come close (in a degree) is the Amish. There are many aspects of their current way of living that are Zion like. I think we, the LDS, are complete failures at even trying to live a Zion life. We do not even TRY to live a Zion life and what is worse we don't even like TALKING about what it means to live a Zion life.