Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

[iWriteStuff]

Where did you get this quote?

A smidge more about Nibley's grandfather, Charles W. Nibley, from the book "Hugh Nibley: A Consecrated Life":

charles w nibley.jpg (130.81 KiB) Viewed 1664 times

Ain't it funny how things work? But if Hugh had any antipathy towards business and making money, I think it fair to attribute that at least in part to the influence of his grandfather, a man he loved. Although Charles Nibley was hugely successful as a businessman, he realized that it didn't really bring happiness.

[iWriteStuff]

How is it lived? Where do we find it explained?

"But how about the law of consecration, which is the foundation of Zion? It is, as I said, contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, explained there not once but many times, so that there is no excuse for not understanding it. The three basic principles are (as so plainly set forth by Wilford Woodruff): (1) everyone gets what he really needs, his wants being met from a common fund that belongs entirely to the Lord and is administered through the bishop of the church; (2) nobody keeps more than he really needs, his surplus all going to that fund; (3) dickering and controversy over the amounts involved is forestalled by the clear statement of the intent and purpose of the law, which is that all may be equal in temporal as in spiritual things. One man's needs may be greater than another's—for example, because his family is larger; but once those needs are met for each, then all are equal, satisfied, at peace, each free to develop his own talents and do the Lord's work, for that is the purpose of the law. There is plenty to do to satisfy the work ethic without a profit motive, "but the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish" (2 Nephi 26:31). Failure to observe this law places one man above another, abominable in the sight of the Lord, and for that reason, we are told, "the world lieth in sin" (D&C 49:20), in Satan's power indeed."

[Kingdom of ZION]

The answer to your question. In the other 2/3rds of the BoM. Also, when the records of the Ten Tribes come, much will be restored.

The next Dispensation shall also restores that priesthood which has the power to translate. Out of the gospel being restored back unto Yesrael, shall come the needed authority and sufficient repentance among men to bring forth Zion again. And they shall eventually call down Zion from above!

Time is very short, you will see this in less the a dozen years. I long for the time when El's Shekinah of Glory shall shade them by day: Exodus 13:21, Exodus 24:16-18, Nehemiah 9:12, and Psalm 78:14.

See also, Psalm 18:7-15, Exodus 13:21-22, Exodus 40:34-38, Exodus 25:22 ,
Numbers 9:15-23, Numbers 10:11-36, Colossians 2:9, Luke 1:35, Luke 2:9, Haggai 2:9, Zechariah 2:5, 2 Peter 1:17, Acts 1:9, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Matthew 24:44, Revelation 21:3, Leviticus 16:2, 2 Samuel 6:2, Psalm 80:1, Isaiah 37:16, Ezekiel 9:3, Ezekiel 10:18, and Hebrews 9:5.

Repenting of every sin and weakness, surrendering you wealth and excess possessions, and receiving revelations personally rather then through a Church leader, is a bigger step then most are and would be willing to do!

Shalom

[Sarah]

and receiving revelations personally rather then through a Church leader

Who says you can't do both?

[Kingdom of ZION]

and receiving revelations personally rather then through a Church leader

Who says you can't do both?

There would be no need, for if they revealed they had received a revelation, you would know of its correctness by receiving your own witness, having the same level of righteousness. No man would rely upon the arm of flesh.

[Son of Liberty]

If you send me a copy I'll read it I love books 8515 Jennifer Dr Apt #3 Juneau,Alaska 99801

[iWriteStuff]

If you send me a copy I'll read it I love books 8515 Jennifer Dr Apt #3 Juneau,Alaska 99801

I can send a PDF copy but otherwise I don't have any print copies to give away. Just send me your email address and I will forward it on!

[Son of Liberty]

If you send me a copy I'll read it I love books 8515 Jennifer Dr Apt #3 Juneau,Alaska 99801

I can send a PDF copy but otherwise I don't have any print copies to give away. Just send me your email address and I will forward it on!

Perfect [email protected]

[marc]

I remember reading about Nibley's father and that bar. Oh, the irony. It's all good, though. The WoW was given not by commandment or constraint, etc. Even Joseph Smith had set up a bar in his Nauvoo Mansion House to welcome guests. But it was Emma who objected to it because of the kind of people it would attract. Joseph ended up yielding to Emma, if I recall correctly.

[marc]

Found it.

Unconvinced, Emma told Joseph he could hire someone to run the Mansion for him. "As for me," she continued, "I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; either that bar goes out of the house, or we will!"...

Joseph answered, "Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once." Soon a frame structure, designed to house the bar and barbershop, began to rise across the street.--Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, 2nd edition, (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1994), 179.

I read that book a couple years ago. One of the best biographies I own.

[iWriteStuff]

If you send me a copy I'll read it I love books 8515 Jennifer Dr Apt #3 Juneau,Alaska 99801

I can send a PDF copy but otherwise I don't have any print copies to give away. Just send me your email address and I will forward it on!

Perfect [email protected]

Sent! Coming from my hotmail account as well so hopefully it doesn't end up in Junk/Spam/Outer Darkness!

Marc - was the name of the book Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith? I'll have to pick that up for my next reading project.

[marc]

Marc - was the name of the book Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith? I'll have to pick that up for my next reading project.

Yup!

[TheSnail]

You can't run before you can walk. We don't even do our home teaching. What percent of the church even pay a full tithe?

[iWriteStuff]

How was consecration (not) practiced in the early church? How does tithing relate to consecration?

As ever, the financial independence "of their own individual families" came first. Brigham Young can tell us how it was:

""Said the Lord to Joseph, "See if they will give their farms to me." What was the result? They would not do it, though it was one of the plainest things in the world. No revelation that was ever given is more easy of comprehension than that on the law of consecration. . . . Yet, when the Lord spoke to Joseph, instructing him to counsel the people to consecrate their possessions, and deed them over to the Church in a covenant that cannot be broken, would the people listen to it? No, but they began to find out that they were mistaken, and had only acknowledged with their mouths that the things which they possessed were the Lord's. [Feigned words were still covering up their covetousness.] I wish to see the people acknowledge the principle of consecration in their works, as well as in their prayers. The Lord makes them well by His power, through the ordinances of His house, but will they consecrate? No. They say, "It is mine, and I will have it myself." There is the treasure, and the heart is with it."

The thing to note here especially is that no one can evade the law of consecration on the grounds that it is not clear; still less are we free to give it our own "clarification," identifying consecration with tithing, gifts to the Church, and so on. We should all know by now that there is no limit to the plasticity, adaptability, contrivance, and manipulation of economic theory; as Tertullian says, "Oh, what a powerful argumentatrix is human ignorance!"

[iWriteStuff]

Ouch:

"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."

[marc]

Ouch:

"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."

What page? Does Nibley provide citations?

[iWriteStuff]

Ouch:

"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."

What page? Does Nibley provide citations?

This is from Chapter 12 - We Will Still Weep for Zion. He follows it with this strong passage:

"If Brigham Young could say in 1877 that "the Latter-day Saints present a strange spectacle to those that enjoy the spirit of revelation," today the spectacle is unfolding to all the world. Economists, journalists, political analysts, sociologists, historians, psychologists, and not least of all General Authorities have all had occasion in the present year to offer explanations for the paradoxical phenomenon of "Utah, the Fraud Capital of the World." If you have followed our little history, there is nothing paradoxical about it. Almost all of the experts agree that the cause of the thing lies in a strange combination of goodness, gullibility, and greed among the people who have always, "like Israel of old," to quote President Woodruff, "associated certain worldly successes with their ideas of right, and misfortune with their ideas of wrong." Since the beginning, the Saints have been under the necessity of frequent routine warnings against "the hard-sell techniques of men not interested in truth, who insist that the acquisition of wealth is a state of blessedness" (1 Timothy 6:5)."

The entire chapter is riddled with references/citations. Sorry I can't help with the page number

[iWriteStuff]

Free Lunch vs No Free Lunch:

"We have been permitted to come here to go to school, to acquire certain knowledge and take a number of tests to prepare us for greater things hereafter. This whole life, in fact, is "a state of probation" (2 Nephi 2:21). While we are at school our generous patron has provided us with all the necessities of living that we will need to carry us through. Imagine, then, that at the end of the first school year your kind benefactor pays the school a visit. He meets you and asks you how you are doing. "Oh," you say, "I am doing very well, thanks to your bounty." "Are you studying a lot?" "Yes, I am making good progress." "What subjects are you studying?" "Oh, I am studying courses in how to get more lunch." "You study that? All the time?" "Yes. I thought of studying some other subjects. Indeed I would love to study them—some of them are so fascinating!—but after all it's the bread-and-butter courses that count. This is the real world, you know. There is no free lunch." "But my dear boy, I'm providing you with that right now." "Yes, for the time being, and I am grateful—but my purpose in life is to get more and better lunches; I want to go right to the top—the executive suite, the Marriott lunch." "But that is not the work I wanted you to do here," says the patron.

"The question in our minds ought to be," says Brigham Young, "what will advance the general interests . . . and increase intelligence in the minds of the people[?] To do this should be our constant study in preference to how shall we secure that farm or that garden [that is, where the lunch comes from!]. . . . We cannot worship our God in public meeting or kneel down to pray in our families without the images of earthly possessions rising up in our minds to distract them and make our worship and our prayers unprofitable." Lunch can easily become the one thing the whole office looks forward to all morning: a distraction, a decoy—like sex, it is a passing need that can only too easily become an engrossing obsession. Brigham says, "It is a folly for a man to love . . . any other kind of property and possessions. One that places his affections upon such things does not understand that they are made for the comfort of the creature, and not for his adoration. They are made to sustain and preserve the body while procuring the knowledge and wisdom that pertain to God and his kingdom [the school motif], in order that we may preserve ourselves, and live forever in his presence."
- from ch. 8, Work We Must, But the Lunch is Free

Is all our time spent chasing money? Is that why God sent us here? What else is there to life that we could be doing that would better help us enjoy the eternities?

[Tbone]

Pardon my rookie comments and questions here, but I have started to read Chapter 2 What is Zion? A Distant View. This morning I read Mosiah 18 and could see a few things that I found interesting.

Right from the beginning, the standard charge against Joseph Smith and the Mormons was treason. And why not? That was the only possible charge when the crime was simply that of rejecting a whole way of life: “They accused him [Joseph Smith] of treason, because he would not fellowship their wickedness.”

Mosiah 18:33 says

And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them.

I know we don't have the full story on the people of Alma, but they seemed to have a good foundation to start on to build Zion. They even received some protections and were able to escape King Noah and his army's and eventually were miraculously freed from Amulon. But they still weren't Zion. How long does it take to become Zion? How many trials do you need until you are purified? You know, assuming you are doing all the right things.

[iWriteStuff]

Pardon my rookie comments and questions here, but I have started to read Chapter 2 What is Zion? A Distant View. This morning I read Mosiah 18 and could see a few things that I found interesting.

Right from the beginning, the standard charge against Joseph Smith and the Mormons was treason. And why not? That was the only possible charge when the crime was simply that of rejecting a whole way of life: “They accused him [Joseph Smith] of treason, because he would not fellowship their wickedness.”

Mosiah 18:33 says

And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them.

I know we don't have the full story on the people of Alma, but they seemed to have a good foundation to start on to build Zion. They even received some protections and were able to escape King Noah and his army's and eventually were miraculously freed from Amulon. But they still weren't Zion. How long does it take to become Zion? How many trials do you need until you are purified? You know, assuming you are doing all the right things.

Awesome questions! And great job at making connections. Mosiah 18 holds a lot of hidden gems for those seeking Zion. Here's my thoughts for ya:

1) Alma and his people were on their way to establishing a Zion society. They certainly had the right foundations: no rich or poor, everyone taken care of, mourn with those that mourn, equality, shared burdens, etc. The gospel was their main focus - all else was secondary to them. We don't call them a Zion because they didn't last very long, nor did they reach the same "Christ dwelling with them" requirement, but they were certainly striving for it. That puts them head and shoulders above their Nephite contemporaries.

2) Consider the heavy use of the word Mormon in Mosiah 18. Land of Mormon, forests of Mormon, waters of Mormon, etc. Who is compiling this record? Some guy named Mormon. What is he trying to tell us about his name? What is it associated with? More specifically, what kind of people is it associated with? Is it significant that he was given this name during a time of Nephite apostasy? My feeling is that this is one of the biggest messages hidden in plain sight in the entire Book of Mormon (there it is again!) and not without good reason.

3) How long and how many trials? I don't have a specific answer for this one, just some personal speculation. The other obvious Zion societies came about in times of tremendous calamity. Think of the people in 3 Nephi. Their entire civilization nearly collapsed before ch. 11, when everything changed. The people of Alma were similar - they were in dire straits and their dependency on God was almost 100%. I think (notice, I'm just speculating) that it takes a calamity mixed with the pure teachings of the Gospel to bring people to the point where they would choose Zion. It can be chosen at any time, in any place, by any righteous people. But the soil is best prepared after it has been thoroughly harrowed. Think of the steps required before a field is ready to be planted. I think of this as being compelled to be humble. We can choose it, sure, but it's especially easy after we've been shown how weak and dependent on God we all are.

4) Notice also that the alternative to choosing Zion in every one of these calamities is to choose the world and the arm of the flesh. This leads to the complete destruction of the Nephites, the exile of the Jews, and the expulsion of the saints from Missouri.

Again, just my thoughts on the matter.

[simpleton]

Observation # 4 above is just where we are at today, right on the very eve of pending destruction.

[iWriteStuff]

The Economics of Zion:

"The first rule of economics is that everyone should provide, as far as possible, for himself. The second, which receives vastly more attention in the scriptures, is that man's wants are few. "Having food and raiment," says Paul, "let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8). "If we have our hundreds or thousands," says Brother Brigham, "we may foster the idea that we have nothing more than we need; but such a notion is entirely erroneous, for our real wants are very limited. What do we absolutely need? I possess everything on the face of the earth that I need, as I appear before you on this stand." With our real wants thus modest, there is plenty on earth for everyone, "for the earth is full and there is enough and to spare" (D&C 104:17), and no excuse whatever for competitive grabbing—"wherefore the world lieth in sin" (D&C 49:20). To take more than we need is to take what does not belong to us...

"Says Brigham Young, "The Latter-day Saints, in their conduct and acts with regard to financial matters, are like the rest of the world. The course pursued by men of business in the world has a tendency to make a few rich, and to sink the masses of the people in poverty and degradation. Too many of the Elders of Israel take this course. No matter what comes they are for gain—for gathering around them riches; and when they get rich, how are those riches used? Spent on the lusts of the flesh." As to the idler eating the bread of the laborer, "I have seen many cases . . .," says Brigham, "when the young lady would have to take her clothing on a Saturday night and wash it, in order that she might go to meeting on the Sunday with a clean dress on. Who is she laboring for? For those who, many of them, are living in luxury. And, to serve the classes that are living on them, the poor, laboring men and women are toiling, working their lives out to earn that which will keep a little life within them. Is this equality? No! What is going to be done? The Latter-day Saints will never accomplish their mission until this inequality shall cease on the earth." "The earth is here, and the fullness thereof is here. It was made for man; and one man was not made to trample his fellowman under his feet, and enjoy all his hearts desires, while the thousands suffer." Regardless of who works and who doesn't, no just father is going to order one son clothed in robes and another in rags (D&C 38:26)."

[Arenera]

The Economics of Zion:

"The first rule of economics is that everyone should provide, as far as possible, for himself. The second, which receives vastly more attention in the scriptures, is that man's wants are few. "Having food and raiment," says Paul, "let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8). "If we have our hundreds or thousands," says Brother Brigham, "we may foster the idea that we have nothing more than we need; but such a notion is entirely erroneous, for our real wants are very limited. What do we absolutely need? I possess everything on the face of the earth that I need, as I appear before you on this stand." With our real wants thus modest, there is plenty on earth for everyone, "for the earth is full and there is enough and to spare" (D&C 104:17), and no excuse whatever for competitive grabbing—"wherefore the world lieth in sin" (D&C 49:20). To take more than we need is to take what does not belong to us...

"Says Brigham Young, "The Latter-day Saints, in their conduct and acts with regard to financial matters, are like the rest of the world. The course pursued by men of business in the world has a tendency to make a few rich, and to sink the masses of the people in poverty and degradation. Too many of the Elders of Israel take this course. No matter what comes they are for gain—for gathering around them riches; and when they get rich, how are those riches used? Spent on the lusts of the flesh." As to the idler eating the bread of the laborer, "I have seen many cases . . .," says Brigham, "when the young lady would have to take her clothing on a Saturday night and wash it, in order that she might go to meeting on the Sunday with a clean dress on. Who is she laboring for? For those who, many of them, are living in luxury. And, to serve the classes that are living on them, the poor, laboring men and women are toiling, working their lives out to earn that which will keep a little life within them. Is this equality? No! What is going to be done? The Latter-day Saints will never accomplish their mission until this inequality shall cease on the earth." "The earth is here, and the fullness thereof is here. It was made for man; and one man was not made to trample his fellowman under his feet, and enjoy all his hearts desires, while the thousands suffer." Regardless of who works and who doesn't, no just father is going to order one son clothed in robes and another in rags (D&C 38:26)."

In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...

[iWriteStuff]

In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...

Excellent question! Here's some answers:

"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."

Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:

"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."

Yikes!

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?

[Serragon]

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Would people even be allowed to go back to a simpler life?

I was in a suburban ward of a major city for many years of my life. We had a family in the ward who was trying to live very simply by suburban standards and had CPS called on them multiple times by various people in the community. Many teachers and doctors believe you are abusing your children if you didn't have running water.