Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Babylon continued:
"Just as the order of Zion began with Adam in the garden, the rival system is just as old. It, too, was proposed to Adam, and he rejected it, while his son Cain accepted it. The plan Satan proposed to Adam was to put everything in this glorious and beautiful world up for sale. You could have anything in this world for money, but you had to have money."
Can we mix Babylon and Zion?
"There is an unbridgeable gap between Zion and Babylon. We cannot compromise on the two ways, because the two ways lead in opposite directions. In recent years, the course of the whole world has suddenly and dramatically vindicated the position taken by the early saints and largely forgotten by their descendants. We are discovering that there really are two worlds; that the one leads to sure destruction written in capital letters on everything we behold, as Joseph Smith put it, and only the other offers salvation. This is the ancient doctrine of the "Two Ways" taught in the early church—the way of darkness and the way of light. It was impossible to try to compromise between them because they led in opposite directions. Yet in the ancient church, it was the compromisers, the dyophysites, who won. When we try to mix Zion and Babylon, Babylon has already won the game. It is amazing that any teaching so fundamental and so clear-cut could be so effectively silenced today among people professing to preach and to practice the restored gospel."

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ajax
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Sometimes I think we can be overzealous in this regard.
12 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
Quite frankly, my family and neighbors and close friends are far more important then the stranger on the street who is there year after year. I remember once being ready to give once again to a stranger, when it came to my mind that it is okay to use the money and give good gifts to my children, that in my overzealousness to help someone I don't know, I may be forgetting the one's I really do know and have relationships with. I remember in my times of overzealousness the counsel of my wife, stating that I was so eager to give to those I don't know and yet so stingy with those I know and live with and presumably love.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children
Also interestingly is King Benjamins addendum to his speech:
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
I remember sitting in Sunday school where this exact topic was being discussed, with many people giving a variety of thoughts on the matter and afterwards my father stating to me that the nice thing about the conversation was that even though there were differences of opinion, everybody had seriously thought about this and tried to make application in their lives.

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ajax
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by ajax »

marc wrote: December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
This is nice, but I think it also needs to be coupled with:
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
Giving to every request without thought can lead to absurdities. Think non-monetary requests.

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ajax
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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And I certainly don't give to every request from my children, else they never learn how to take care of themselves or solve their own problems.

Charity is much more than just splashing money around.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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ajax wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:15 am Also interestingly is King Benjamins addendum to his speech:
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
Cicero had similar thoughts on the matter, derived from Stoic philosophy. Although not scriptural, I offer them for your consideration:
"Many, indeed, have squandered their property in inconsiderate generosity. But what is more foolish than to disable yourself from continuing to do what you take pleasure in doing? Moreover, rapine follows extravagance in giving; for when men in consequence of their lavish generosity have begun to be in want, they are constrained to lay hands on the property of others... Therefore private property should neither be so shut up that kindness cannot open it, nor so thrown wide as to lie open to all. Let a limit be observed, and let this be determined by our means."
- Cicero, On Moral Duties
He goes on further to lay out some guidelines about charitable giving, but with the underlying maxim: Don't give so much away that you can't take care of your family. Your first duty is to your family and dependents; after those needs are satisfied, you can see to the needs of others. Also, don't give away so much that you destroy your ability to give again in the future.

Or, as Benjamin says, don't run faster than you have strength: do all things in order ;)

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ajax
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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"It reads like a savings stamp catalog or a guide to a modern supermarket or department store. Horses and chariots and all manner of services are available; slaves in the souls of men."

This is where Nibley really loses me. He is always ready to tramp on the common man that bring goods and services on the market. The supermarket? Really? This from a guy who sat in a ivory tower and earned his living off the tithes of others.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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ajax wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:41 am "It reads like a savings stamp catalog or a guide to a modern supermarket or department store. Horses and chariots and all manner of services are available; slaves in the souls of men."

This is where Nibley really loses me. He is always ready to tramp on the common man that bring goods and services on the market. The supermarket? Really? This from a guy who sat in a ivory tower and earned his living off the tithes of others.
I don't read it as denigration of supermarkets. I read it as denouncement of the deification of supermarkets. When men set their hearts upon material goods to the point where the goods become their gods, they've crossed the Bridge of Idolatry into Babylon itself.

As per the man himself, Nibley was offered better jobs at higher salaries in other universities numerous times throughout his life. Several times he almost left BYU. And every time, he was talked into staying by a member of the 12 or the Presidency itself. He stayed because they convinced him he could do the most good for the church while working at BYU. (source: Hugh Nibley: A Consecrated Life)

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:12 am Babylon continued:
"Just as the order of Zion began with Adam in the garden, the rival system is just as old. It, too, was proposed to Adam, and he rejected it, while his son Cain accepted it. The plan Satan proposed to Adam was to put everything in this glorious and beautiful world up for sale. You could have anything in this world for money, but you had to have money."
Can we mix Babylon and Zion?
"There is an unbridgeable gap between Zion and Babylon. We cannot compromise on the two ways, because the two ways lead in opposite directions. In recent years, the course of the whole world has suddenly and dramatically vindicated the position taken by the early saints and largely forgotten by their descendants. We are discovering that there really are two worlds; that the one leads to sure destruction written in capital letters on everything we behold, as Joseph Smith put it, and only the other offers salvation. This is the ancient doctrine of the "Two Ways" taught in the early church—the way of darkness and the way of light. It was impossible to try to compromise between them because they led in opposite directions. Yet in the ancient church, it was the compromisers, the dyophysites, who won. When we try to mix Zion and Babylon, Babylon has already won the game. It is amazing that any teaching so fundamental and so clear-cut could be so effectively silenced today among people professing to preach and to practice the restored gospel."
I wonder how quickly the eyes of the students in my Gospel Doctrine class would glaze over if I mentioned the debate between the Monophysites and the Dyophysites.

Anyway, compromise is such a nasty word, isn't it? Look at where compromise has gotten us in the modern world. Babylon abounds and yet the Church, which never sees more than 50% attendance on any given Sunday, is faced with the effectual struggle spoken of by King Limhi.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Arenera »

Mention of processing olives and grapes brings up the word "extortion"; the literal meaning of the word "is to squeeze the last drop out of a thing."

The gifts of God, we are told, which are the bounties of the earth, are to be used "with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion" (D&C 59:20). How often it is that these last drops mean the extra profit we so eagerly pursue.

And now comes one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "For the poor shall never cease out of the land" (Deuteronomy 15:11). We have given this a rather mean twist today, arguing that since the poor will always be there, it is a waste of time to help them, for that will only encourage them and make more of them. Thus we ignore the rest of the verse (I have never heard anyone quote it), which is: "Therefore I command thee, saying thou shalt open up thy hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land" (Deuteronomy 15:11). Their perpetual presence is not to make us indifferent, but it is a constant reminder that God has his eye on us.

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marc
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by marc »

ajax wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:22 am
marc wrote: December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
This is nice, but I think it also needs to be coupled with:
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
Giving to every request without thought can lead to absurdities. Think non-monetary requests.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

I don't know that I can say all I have thought on this subject, because it is so essential to the gospel that it is part of every facet. This may end up sounding pretty disjointed.

I believe our actual needs are so much less than what we usually consider. The earth God made, along with priesthood power, provides for all our needs as evidenced by Adam and Eve being able to leave the Garden and survive, as well as the ages of human history. It is only in the last blink of human existence that so many of the technologies we take for granted have existed. More often than not, in our day and age (in the US), financial/temporal charity is more about wants than needs. This is not true the whole world over, of course, there is much real need in the world as a whole. (Christ and his prophets have provided for these temporal needs through healing, miraculous feeding and teaching true principles.)

I believe we are to learn basic skills to provide for ourselves and families so that if/when technologies fail, we are able to care for our own and others. I believe that more traditional agricultural lifestyles make us dependent on God and his providence. Modern economies make us dependent on men: trusting more in the arm of flesh.

Some of our needs are not being met in the modern world, because of technology. We need to do physical work to keep our bodies healthy. We need real food to keep our bodies healthy. Healthy bodies are better able to receive and act on the promptings of the Spirit. Sedentary jobs and tainted or fake foods are a detriment to our spiritual growth. (Earning one's bread by the sweat of their brow and the Word of Wisdom)

Scripture tells us that our Heavenly Father's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality of man. Our work is to be instruments in his hands in doing this. The two main ways I see that being are to provide physical life to those Spirit's waiting in the pre-mortal realm and providing spiritual life to those who seek the truth, but no not where to find it. (The Plan of Salvation and Missionary Work)

While I agree that Babylon and Zion are opposites. I believe we (if we have internet access we can't be too poor off) live in a time and place where we are as Daniel and his friends, captives in Babylon. This means some things we may choose, some are chosen for us (we can seek good food, but we are subject unto the current crop of kings, rulers, magistrates, etc. and we are under command to honor, obey and sustain the current laws)

I believe the time is not far distant (whether in my lifetime or that of my children or grandchildren, but I believe mine) in which we will be called to reject Babylon entirely and leave. (Refuse the mark of the beast.) I think that when that happens we will see many who will not leave. (They will choose slavery and the "flesh pots" of Egypt over the promise land. They will believe they have obtained the Garden of Eden and refuse to enter the wilderness, opposition and true growth.)

I believe that Zion will be open to all who will not take up arms against their brethren, both members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others who are not members. I do believe we will learn from some of those groups, things we didn't learn before about temporal salvation and the organization of such communities. (I have always thought the Amish would be there with other Anabaptist and religious pacifist groups who have stepped back from modern life.) Along those lines, it is important to study the scriptures and histories of those who have done this before: like the Pilgrims, in their own words.

Because I do not believe Zion and anarchy can coexist, I believe Zion will have both communal property and private stewardship. God is a God of order. (Consider that many may be worthy and capable to be bishop in a ward, but only one is called to administer in the position at a time. )

While I believe that this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God and men are that they might have joy, I do not believe that we can expect to receive our full reward in this life. This life is the work and test. We may receive rewards in this life, but we should expect to receive many trials and to push our limits of submission to God's will. (Consider Christ accepting the Atonement.) I bring this up because I see too many, myself included, justifying excessive play at the expense of fully magnifying our callings: especially marriage and parenthood.

I believe that Zion is built on families.

Yes, young people should get married and have kids, but single and married people should maintain active relationships with parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.

It is, after all, "the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by David13 »

ajax wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:24 am

...

Charity is much more than just splashing money around.

I think you have it there.
There is something bothering me about it.
What is charity? Is charity giving the doper or alcoholic on the street some "spare change, man" or a dollar or 5? And then being glib about it, and it doesn't matter to you if you have helped them, or hurt them?

That's where you lose me.

What about giving food, as above, where they didn't want it, and didn't eat it. So it went to waste.

"I doesn't matter man, I gave, that's all I have to do, man." "It's not on me if it's waste that could have gone to someone who needed it, or would have used it, man."

And is it always giving money.

What about stopping to talk with that doper or drinker for a moment. Asking about their life. 2 or 3 minutes. And then counseling or advising about getting their life back. Is that charity? Or is is that you can't say anything, just give them money.

It's faster. And less possible hassle. Yes, some of them get real resentful, hostile even. But it isn't very many of them.

Or, do you just do the minimum. As little as possible so you can get back on your way. Toss a buck or two. Or, does charity include planting a seed of hope of change into someone's life.
dc

As an additional thought, I guess it has to be different for me, at least a bit. My stock in trade is my time and advice. But couldn't that be true for all of us?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

David13 wrote: December 31st, 2017, 2:59 pm
ajax wrote: December 31st, 2017, 9:24 am

...

Charity is much more than just splashing money around.

I think you have it there.
There is something bothering me about it.
What is charity? Is charity giving the doper or alcoholic on the street some "spare change, man" or a dollar or 5? And then being glib about it, and it doesn't matter to you if you have helped them, or hurt them?

That's where you lose me.

What about giving food, as above, where they didn't want it, and didn't eat it. So it went to waste.

"I doesn't matter man, I gave, that's all I have to do, man." "It's not on me if it's waste that could have gone to someone who needed it, or would have used it, man."

And is it always giving money.

What about stopping to talk with that doper or drinker for a moment. Asking about their life. 2 or 3 minutes. And then counseling or advising about getting their life back. Is that charity? Or is is that you can't say anything, just give them money.

It's faster. And less possible hassle. Yes, some of them get real resentful, hostile even. But it isn't very many of them.

Or, do you just do the minimum. As little as possible so you can get back on your way. Toss a buck or two. Or, does charity include planting a seed of hope of change into someone's life.
dc

As an additional thought, I guess it has to be different for me, at least a bit. My stock in trade is my time and advice. But couldn't that be true for all of us?
Acts3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
I does feel like people focus so much on money. All the earth is the Lord's and he can provide manna from heaven. (It seems to be favored by those hoping to GET from United Order more than give. Nothing stopping us from giving right now. )

Charity is not just stuff and money.

I do love and appreciate many of the quotes that have been shared by iWriteStuff and Sarah, however. I am sure we can do more as a people to build Zion right now.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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What about the covenant we make to live the law of consecration?
"Is the law unrealistic, impractical? It is much too late for me to worry about that now, for I have already accepted it and repeated my acceptance at least once every month. (At a recent conference [October 1978], Elder Mark E. Petersen spoke of the importance of keeping all the covenants we have made—and none is more important, more specific, more sacred than this one.) What about Brother So-and-So or President So-and So? He is free to do as he pleases; I did not covenant with him! I knew quite well what I was promising to do and when and where I was to do it, and why—now it is up to me! This is not like plural marriage, which was suspended by a formal decree because the whole of American society and government had thrown their weight against it with dedicated and unrelenting fury that disrupted the whole course of life in the Church and even the nation. When the United Order was dissolved in 1834, it was through no pressure from outside but because of greed and hypocrisy ("covetousness, and with feigned words," D&C 104:4, 52) within the Church. Brigham Young revived it again—the Brigham Young Academy at Provo was founded for the explicit purpose, in his words, of countering "the theories of Huxley, of Darwin, or of Miall and the false political economy which contends against cooperation and the United Order."

"But after him the old covetousness and feigned words triumphed again as rich men quietly bought up controlling shares of the cooperatives without changing the name... "I want you to understand," said Heber C. Kimball, "that you make covenants with God, and not with us. We were present and committed those covenants to you, and you made them with God, and we were witnesses." Paul recognizes this in his lucid statements about the law of consecration in his letters to Timothy, which should be studied carefully. And he is talking about the foundation of the Church, which rests on the personal contract between God and the individual: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19). The Lord alone knows who are the true church; he alone stands at the gate, "and he employeth no servant there" (2 Nephi 9:41), as he takes each one by the hand and speaks each name. Even the Prophet does not know who are in the covenant and who are not, "as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known (D&C 10:37).

"What is there to stop me from observing and keeping the law of consecration at this very day as I have already covenanted and promised to do without reservation? Is the foundation too broad for us to build on?"

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Not Approaching Zion, but definitely approaching my mind this morning:
"I will tell you what this people need, with regard to preaching; you need, figuratively, to have it rain pitchforks, tines downwards, from this pulpit, Sunday after Sunday. Instead of the smooth, beautiful, sweet, still, silk−velvet−lipped preaching, you should have sermons like peals of thunder, and perhaps we then can get the scales from our eyes. This style is necessary in order to save many of this people. Give them smooth preaching, and let them glide along in their own desires and wishes, and they will follow after the traditions of their forefathers and the inclinations of their own wicked hearts, and give way to temptation, little by little, until, by and by, they are ripe for destruction."
- JD 3:223, Brigham Young, March 2, 1856
Is living the gospel a matter of life and death for us or a matter of life and "meh"? I do love it when people are passionately engaged in living and promoting the gospel. This cannot be a passive endeavor for us, or we may miss out on many blessings we could otherwise receive.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by drtanner »

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., The Way to Perfection, p.273-276
We covenant to live the law of consecration. This law is that we consecrate our time, talents, strength, property, and money for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God on this earth and the establishment of Zion.

Until one abides by the laws of obedience, sacrifice, the gospel, and chastity, he cannot abide the law of consecration, which is the law pertaining to the celestial kingdom. "For if you will that I give you place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you" (D&C 78:7).

Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom" (D&C 105:5). Much has been written about this law and its attempted implementation in the early history of the Church; and much deception has taken root, even among some of our members, because of misinformed opinion or misguided interpretations. Some view it as merely an economic alternative to capitalism or the free enterprise system, others as an outgrowth of early communal experiments in America. Such a view is not only shortsighted but tends to diminish in importance a binding requirement for entrance into the celestial kingdom. The law of consecration is a celestial law, not an economic experiment.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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drtanner wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 9:31 am Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., The Way to Perfection, p.273-276
We covenant to live the law of consecration. This law is that we consecrate our time, talents, strength, property, and money for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God on this earth and the establishment of Zion.

Until one abides by the laws of obedience, sacrifice, the gospel, and chastity, he cannot abide the law of consecration, which is the law pertaining to the celestial kingdom. "For if you will that I give you place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you" (D&C 78:7).

Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom" (D&C 105:5). Much has been written about this law and its attempted implementation in the early history of the Church; and much deception has taken root, even among some of our members, because of misinformed opinion or misguided interpretations. Some view it as merely an economic alternative to capitalism or the free enterprise system, others as an outgrowth of early communal experiments in America. Such a view is not only shortsighted but tends to diminish in importance a binding requirement for entrance into the celestial kingdom. The law of consecration is a celestial law, not an economic experiment.
How ironic! I rediscovered The Way to Perfection in my book collection just yesterday! Good stuff there.

Does anyone know the last time there was a talk in Conference on the law of consecration?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 7:15 am What about the covenant we make to live the law of consecration?
"Is the law unrealistic, impractical? It is much too late for me to worry about that now, for I have already accepted it and repeated my acceptance at least once every month. (At a recent conference [October 1978], Elder Mark E. Petersen spoke of the importance of keeping all the covenants we have made—and none is more important, more specific, more sacred than this one.) What about Brother So-and-So or President So-and So? He is free to do as he pleases; I did not covenant with him! I knew quite well what I was promising to do and when and where I was to do it, and why—now it is up to me! This is not like plural marriage, which was suspended by a formal decree because the whole of American society and government had thrown their weight against it with dedicated and unrelenting fury that disrupted the whole course of life in the Church and even the nation. When the United Order was dissolved in 1834, it was through no pressure from outside but because of greed and hypocrisy ("covetousness, and with feigned words," D&C 104:4, 52) within the Church. Brigham Young revived it again—the Brigham Young Academy at Provo was founded for the explicit purpose, in his words, of countering "the theories of Huxley, of Darwin, or of Miall and the false political economy which contends against cooperation and the United Order."

"But after him the old covetousness and feigned words triumphed again as rich men quietly bought up controlling shares of the cooperatives without changing the name... "I want you to understand," said Heber C. Kimball, "that you make covenants with God, and not with us. We were present and committed those covenants to you, and you made them with God, and we were witnesses." Paul recognizes this in his lucid statements about the law of consecration in his letters to Timothy, which should be studied carefully. And he is talking about the foundation of the Church, which rests on the personal contract between God and the individual: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19). The Lord alone knows who are the true church; he alone stands at the gate, "and he employeth no servant there" (2 Nephi 9:41), as he takes each one by the hand and speaks each name. Even the Prophet does not know who are in the covenant and who are not, "as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known (D&C 10:37).

"What is there to stop me from observing and keeping the law of consecration at this very day as I have already covenanted and promised to do without reservation? Is the foundation too broad for us to build on?"
I can see we are talking past each other. :)

I totally agree, and have shared on other posts, that I believe we are under covenant to live the Law of Consecration right now. I believe there are many saints doing so, but it is not visible to most.

I will re-share my perspective on this thread.

I do not see giving money to every panhandler is living the Law of Consecration. Even the Church has urged members at temple square not to give to panhandlers, but to donate to reputable charities to help them. Many obvious reasons have been mentioned already like the money being used for drugs and alcohol instead of food, clothing and shelter.

I do believe we are to use the Holy Ghost in deciding how to distribute our offerings. In fact, I think that is key. In the example I gave of the family member who threw away the non-perishable food. I actually felt like I shouldn't give it to her, but I thought that was ridiculous and "obviously not the Spirit." Lesson learned. Yes, the Spirit can tell you "not to share" if that person will not be benefited by your offering. Keep in mind, this was at a time where we lived in a little 2 bedroom apt with 5 kids and lived on homemade food storage and walked everywhere and never had extra at the end of the pay check. (We had just finished college and were looking for a new job to replace our college job and pay. We have never been homeless or starving, but we could have used that money and food OR given it to someone who would have actually benefited from it. )

Now as to how I do see the Law of Consecration working right now. I believe we listen to the Spirit. We share our time, our money, our talents. We build the Kingdom of God and establish Zion. I have been the recipient of such blessings and tried to offer the same.

I once had a broken foot, I was hungry, the sink was full of dishes, my first husband was no where to be seen (he was off spreading his wild gay oats up SLC at the time.) I went to the sink determined to wash a pot and make some Ramen (That sentence can only carry its full impact if you really know how I feel about Ramen. lol) I balanced myself and started to wash the pot only to have a spider crawl up out of it. I went to the couch and cried instead. Then, a knock at the door. My visiting teachers who I did not know asked if they could wash my dishes. Talk about listening to the Spirit!

Another time, when I was young and single, I needed a blessing and my home teachers, who I had never met came over to administer that blessing. It was amazing to hear the very phrases, word for word, that the Lord had put into my heart in those preceding weeks, come out of the mouth of that brother. I had spent the time discussing the problem with my friend, who suggested I call the home teachers, and sharing with her those phrases that had come to mind. She was there and we were so surprised we actually both opened our eyes and looked up at each other stunned and then hurried and closed our eyes and bowed our heads again.

I'm not saying money can't be involved. One time I literally prayed for $2000. We felt the Spirit tell us my husband needed to go to school spring and summer term. We did everything we could to get the money together, but the day before it was due, we did not have the full amount needed. So I prayed and told the Lord exactly that: "We have done all we could. We are short. Can you get us the money to do what you have asked us to do?" I woke up to find the money in our bank account. I called the bank and they said it came from the University. I called the University who said my husband had earned a scholarship for both the current and previous semesters. They weren't sure why it hadn't been sent until then, but it was in fact, not an error. We paid the tuition. It would take me all morning to write the blessings that followed and hinged on that one decision.

I don't feel like sharing more of what we personally have done is appropriate, other than to say we try to do the same as directed by the Spirit.

In our current ward they ask us to write down our service so they keep track of it. I get it, but I only wrote something one time because it felt so wrong to "publish" it like that. The Lord knows our needs. He knows our neighbors needs. He knows how to tell us when and how to help. We just need to know how to listen.

I will give one example I saw on the board worth mentioning. A thread came back up asking for charities or individuals to donate to at the end of year with surplus funds. That is an excellent example of taking the Law as it was given and adapting it to our current situation and time.

To me, these are all examples of the Law of Consecration: time, money, talent. The goal is to always have a prayer in our heart and to act immediately upon the promptings we receive.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Michelle wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 11:29 am I can see we are talking past each other. :)
Talking past each other? Not at all! I love your posts! I was just sharing more quotes from Approaching Zion, one that I stumbled across last night as I was reviewing my notes from previous readings.

Side note: I used to only own the book in PDF format. I don't really have the $50 to go blow at Deseret Books, so I relied heavily on the free versions the Maxwell Institute puts out on the BYU website. As a result, I can't underline passages so I write them out in my journal. I both write out the passage I like, then add any thoughts or impressions I had as I was reading it. This year for Christmas my father in law allowed me to pick any book out of his collection. Buried beneath a pile of Louis Lamour books, I found a slightly smudged up copy of Approaching Zion. He was generous in parting with it, and it made my whole Christmas that much better.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Michelle wrote: December 30th, 2017, 9:45 pm I have to say first, I agree with a lot of what iWriteStuff is saying, but I think the Spirit still needs to be used with regard to "helping' others.

My father worked in San Francisco for years and he said nearly everyday he would invite a beggar to lunch, but no one ever took him up on the offer.

I have seen my share of panhandlers and asked if I should do anything without receiving confirmation that it was right. In fact, I can only remember one time when the Spirit clearly told me to buy a woman lunch, which I did and then I took it to her and she was so grateful. (That doesn't mean I don't help in other ways, but usually the Spirit says no to giving money to strangers like that.)

On the opposite hand, we once gave a lot of groceries (non perishables) to a family member, single mom with two kids, who was always asking for money for groceries. When she moved out of our basement a year or so later, she had my kids throw away all the food we had given her (still in the cupboards) and told them not to tell us. She was too lazy to even prepare the just-open-the-can and add-water foods we had bought for her. She preferred to eat out every meal, usually by showing up at a certain family members house, that liked to go out to eat, about dinner time.

Gotta have the Spirit in all things.
You will and probably have been blessed for your gift. She will be accountable for it... You were a good steward and she it seems was not...

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 12:46 pm Side note: I used to only own the book in PDF format. I don't really have the $50 to go blow at Deseret Books, so I relied heavily on the free versions the Maxwell Institute puts out on the BYU website. As a result, I can't underline passages so I write them out in my journal. I both write out the passage I like, then add any thoughts or impressions I had as I was reading it. This year for Christmas my father in law allowed me to pick any book out of his collection. Buried beneath a pile of Louis Lamour books, I found a slightly smudged up copy of Approaching Zion. He was generous in parting with it, and it made my whole Christmas that much better.
That's cool! Much of my collection was obtained at various D.I. stores here in Utah. I have found some gems for under $2 or $3.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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marc wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 3:05 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 12:46 pm Side note: I used to only own the book in PDF format. I don't really have the $50 to go blow at Deseret Books, so I relied heavily on the free versions the Maxwell Institute puts out on the BYU website. As a result, I can't underline passages so I write them out in my journal. I both write out the passage I like, then add any thoughts or impressions I had as I was reading it. This year for Christmas my father in law allowed me to pick any book out of his collection. Buried beneath a pile of Louis Lamour books, I found a slightly smudged up copy of Approaching Zion. He was generous in parting with it, and it made my whole Christmas that much better.
That's cool! Much of my collection was obtained at various D.I. stores here in Utah. I have found some gems for under $2 or $3.
I can't tell you how many times I miraculously found a book or whole series at DI that I wanted but would have cost up to $60 on Amazon. I love DI for books!

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Michelle wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 5:04 pm
marc wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 3:05 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 12:46 pm Side note: I used to only own the book in PDF format. I don't really have the $50 to go blow at Deseret Books, so I relied heavily on the free versions the Maxwell Institute puts out on the BYU website. As a result, I can't underline passages so I write them out in my journal. I both write out the passage I like, then add any thoughts or impressions I had as I was reading it. This year for Christmas my father in law allowed me to pick any book out of his collection. Buried beneath a pile of Louis Lamour books, I found a slightly smudged up copy of Approaching Zion. He was generous in parting with it, and it made my whole Christmas that much better.
That's cool! Much of my collection was obtained at various D.I. stores here in Utah. I have found some gems for under $2 or $3.
I can't tell you how many times I miraculously found a book or whole series at DI that I wanted but would have cost up to $60 on Amazon. I love DI for books!
I used to buy books there as frequently as I could.... then I moved out of state and find that my nonmember neighbors don't love Nibley as much as I do :lol:

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 6:44 pm
Michelle wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 5:04 pm
marc wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 3:05 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 12:46 pm Side note: I used to only own the book in PDF format. I don't really have the $50 to go blow at Deseret Books, so I relied heavily on the free versions the Maxwell Institute puts out on the BYU website. As a result, I can't underline passages so I write them out in my journal. I both write out the passage I like, then add any thoughts or impressions I had as I was reading it. This year for Christmas my father in law allowed me to pick any book out of his collection. Buried beneath a pile of Louis Lamour books, I found a slightly smudged up copy of Approaching Zion. He was generous in parting with it, and it made my whole Christmas that much better.
That's cool! Much of my collection was obtained at various D.I. stores here in Utah. I have found some gems for under $2 or $3.
I can't tell you how many times I miraculously found a book or whole series at DI that I wanted but would have cost up to $60 on Amazon. I love DI for books!
I used to buy books there as frequently as I could.... then I moved out of state and find that my nonmember neighbors don't love Nibley as much as I do :lol:
That's funny, I remember moving to Utah as an adult and being dumbstruck to hear church stuff on the radio as I drove into the valley. I wasn't sure at the time, but I thought it possible I had found Zion.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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The Ethic of Work vs The Ethic of Plunder:
"Now we all know that Adam could not stay in the Garden. He was expelled and told to get his living by the sweat of his brow. In return for hard physical labor, the earth would yield him of her abundance (Moses 4:23-25). It was a fair exchange—he was to put hard work into the soil, and in return the soil would sustain him. He was to live by work, though, not by plunder...

"After my mission I visited a glorious redwood grove near Santa Cruz, California. Only there was no grove there; the two-thousand-year-old trees were all gone: not one of them was left standing. My own grandfather had converted them all into cash. It wasn't hard to do in those days. You looked up the right people, you got your name on some pieces of paper, and presto! you were rich for a short while and the earth was impoverished forever. I'm pleased to state that my grandfather recognized that there was something wrong with this, that he was not fulfilling the commandment given to Adam, that it was not the kind of work Adam was assigned to do. There was no proportion whatever between the amount of work and the return, between what man took from the earth and what he gave to it. Grandfather took something priceless and irreplaceable and gave in return a few miles of railroad ties. He not only broke the cycle of life so beautifully exemplified in those all but immortal groves, he destroyed it for quick wealth, which served only to corrupt his children and lead them out of the Church...

"There's no permanency in economy that takes a hundred from nature and gives back one. There's no survival value in such an operation, which is certainly the business of systematic and organized looting—the very opposite of making a fair exchange with the earth. Above all, it ignores the ancient doctrine of man's obligation to "quicken" the earth that bears for him. The old Jewish teaching is that Adam had a right only to that portion of the earth that he "quickened," on which he labored with the sweat of his brow. Let us not confuse the ethic of work with the ethic of plunder."
Which do we value most - the ethic of an honest day's work or the ethic of quick money? Where are our hearts and how are we cultivating them?

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