Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Son of Liberty wrote: January 7th, 2018, 7:29 am
iWriteStuff wrote: January 7th, 2018, 7:10 am
Son of Liberty wrote: January 7th, 2018, 6:51 am If you send me a copy I'll read it I love books 8515 Jennifer Dr Apt #3 Juneau,Alaska 99801 ;)
I can send a PDF copy but otherwise I don't have any print copies to give away. Just send me your email address and I will forward it on! :)

Perfect Chris_fisher81@hotmail.com
Sent! Coming from my hotmail account as well so hopefully it doesn't end up in Junk/Spam/Outer Darkness!

Marc - was the name of the book Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith? I'll have to pick that up for my next reading project.

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marc
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 7th, 2018, 1:11 pm Marc - was the name of the book Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith? I'll have to pick that up for my next reading project.
Yup! :)

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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You can't run before you can walk. We don't even do our home teaching. What percent of the church even pay a full tithe?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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How was consecration (not) practiced in the early church? How does tithing relate to consecration?
As ever, the financial independence "of their own individual families" came first. Brigham Young can tell us how it was:

""Said the Lord to Joseph, "See if they will give their farms to me." What was the result? They would not do it, though it was one of the plainest things in the world. No revelation that was ever given is more easy of comprehension than that on the law of consecration. . . . Yet, when the Lord spoke to Joseph, instructing him to counsel the people to consecrate their possessions, and deed them over to the Church in a covenant that cannot be broken, would the people listen to it? No, but they began to find out that they were mistaken, and had only acknowledged with their mouths that the things which they possessed were the Lord's. [Feigned words were still covering up their covetousness.] I wish to see the people acknowledge the principle of consecration in their works, as well as in their prayers. The Lord makes them well by His power, through the ordinances of His house, but will they consecrate? No. They say, "It is mine, and I will have it myself." There is the treasure, and the heart is with it."

The thing to note here especially is that no one can evade the law of consecration on the grounds that it is not clear; still less are we free to give it our own "clarification," identifying consecration with tithing, gifts to the Church, and so on. We should all know by now that there is no limit to the plasticity, adaptability, contrivance, and manipulation of economic theory; as Tertullian says, "Oh, what a powerful argumentatrix is human ignorance!"

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Ouch:
"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."

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marc
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 9th, 2018, 2:37 pm Ouch:
"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."
What page? Does Nibley provide citations?

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marc wrote: January 9th, 2018, 3:46 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 9th, 2018, 2:37 pm Ouch:
"On various occasions, Brigham Young made it perfectly clear that no possible grounds remain for evading or postponing the law of consecration; there is nothing to argue or temporize about; the clarifying and explaining have all been done. It has been repeatedly presented to the people in the most clear and unequivocal terms—and flatly rejected by them. Not by a show of hands—that would have been perfectly permissible—but by proclaiming by word and deed after leaving the meetings that they had no intention of keeping certain parts of the law. Notice how Israel and the Saints of every age, when called to keep the law, are reminded that unless they live up to every point of the agreement the whole covenant will be nullified—it is the whole law or nothing. The Saints covenanted and promised to observe it with the clear understanding that God is not to be mocked in these things, and that the only alternative to living up to every item of covenants made with him is to be in Satan's power (cf. Moses 4:4). Which is where we are today, along with the rest of the world. It is the stubborn insistence on having it both ways, keeping parts of the law that content them while putting the rest on hold, that generates those crippling contradictions that mark our present condition."
What page? Does Nibley provide citations?
This is from Chapter 12 - We Will Still Weep for Zion. He follows it with this strong passage:
"If Brigham Young could say in 1877 that "the Latter-day Saints present a strange spectacle to those that enjoy the spirit of revelation," today the spectacle is unfolding to all the world. Economists, journalists, political analysts, sociologists, historians, psychologists, and not least of all General Authorities have all had occasion in the present year to offer explanations for the paradoxical phenomenon of "Utah, the Fraud Capital of the World." If you have followed our little history, there is nothing paradoxical about it. Almost all of the experts agree that the cause of the thing lies in a strange combination of goodness, gullibility, and greed among the people who have always, "like Israel of old," to quote President Woodruff, "associated certain worldly successes with their ideas of right, and misfortune with their ideas of wrong." Since the beginning, the Saints have been under the necessity of frequent routine warnings against "the hard-sell techniques of men not interested in truth, who insist that the acquisition of wealth is a state of blessedness" (1 Timothy 6:5)."
The entire chapter is riddled with references/citations. Sorry I can't help with the page number :(

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Free Lunch vs No Free Lunch:
"We have been permitted to come here to go to school, to acquire certain knowledge and take a number of tests to prepare us for greater things hereafter. This whole life, in fact, is "a state of probation" (2 Nephi 2:21). While we are at school our generous patron has provided us with all the necessities of living that we will need to carry us through. Imagine, then, that at the end of the first school year your kind benefactor pays the school a visit. He meets you and asks you how you are doing. "Oh," you say, "I am doing very well, thanks to your bounty." "Are you studying a lot?" "Yes, I am making good progress." "What subjects are you studying?" "Oh, I am studying courses in how to get more lunch." "You study that? All the time?" "Yes. I thought of studying some other subjects. Indeed I would love to study them—some of them are so fascinating!—but after all it's the bread-and-butter courses that count. This is the real world, you know. There is no free lunch." "But my dear boy, I'm providing you with that right now." "Yes, for the time being, and I am grateful—but my purpose in life is to get more and better lunches; I want to go right to the top—the executive suite, the Marriott lunch." "But that is not the work I wanted you to do here," says the patron.

"The question in our minds ought to be," says Brigham Young, "what will advance the general interests . . . and increase intelligence in the minds of the people[?] To do this should be our constant study in preference to how shall we secure that farm or that garden [that is, where the lunch comes from!]. . . . We cannot worship our God in public meeting or kneel down to pray in our families without the images of earthly possessions rising up in our minds to distract them and make our worship and our prayers unprofitable." Lunch can easily become the one thing the whole office looks forward to all morning: a distraction, a decoy—like sex, it is a passing need that can only too easily become an engrossing obsession. Brigham says, "It is a folly for a man to love . . . any other kind of property and possessions. One that places his affections upon such things does not understand that they are made for the comfort of the creature, and not for his adoration. They are made to sustain and preserve the body while procuring the knowledge and wisdom that pertain to God and his kingdom [the school motif], in order that we may preserve ourselves, and live forever in his presence."
- from ch. 8, Work We Must, But the Lunch is Free
Is all our time spent chasing money? Is that why God sent us here? What else is there to life that we could be doing that would better help us enjoy the eternities?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Pardon my rookie comments and questions here, but I have started to read Chapter 2 What is Zion? A Distant View. This morning I read Mosiah 18 and could see a few things that I found interesting.
Right from the beginning, the standard charge against Joseph Smith and the Mormons was treason. And why not? That was the only possible charge when the crime was simply that of rejecting a whole way of life: “They accused him [Joseph Smith] of treason, because he would not fellowship their wickedness.”
Mosiah 18:33 says
And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them.
I know we don't have the full story on the people of Alma, but they seemed to have a good foundation to start on to build Zion. They even received some protections and were able to escape King Noah and his army's and eventually were miraculously freed from Amulon. But they still weren't Zion. How long does it take to become Zion? How many trials do you need until you are purified? You know, assuming you are doing all the right things.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Tbone wrote: January 11th, 2018, 1:55 pm Pardon my rookie comments and questions here, but I have started to read Chapter 2 What is Zion? A Distant View. This morning I read Mosiah 18 and could see a few things that I found interesting.
Right from the beginning, the standard charge against Joseph Smith and the Mormons was treason. And why not? That was the only possible charge when the crime was simply that of rejecting a whole way of life: “They accused him [Joseph Smith] of treason, because he would not fellowship their wickedness.”
Mosiah 18:33 says
And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them.
I know we don't have the full story on the people of Alma, but they seemed to have a good foundation to start on to build Zion. They even received some protections and were able to escape King Noah and his army's and eventually were miraculously freed from Amulon. But they still weren't Zion. How long does it take to become Zion? How many trials do you need until you are purified? You know, assuming you are doing all the right things.
Awesome questions! And great job at making connections. Mosiah 18 holds a lot of hidden gems for those seeking Zion. Here's my thoughts for ya:

1) Alma and his people were on their way to establishing a Zion society. They certainly had the right foundations: no rich or poor, everyone taken care of, mourn with those that mourn, equality, shared burdens, etc. The gospel was their main focus - all else was secondary to them. We don't call them a Zion because they didn't last very long, nor did they reach the same "Christ dwelling with them" requirement, but they were certainly striving for it. That puts them head and shoulders above their Nephite contemporaries.

2) Consider the heavy use of the word Mormon in Mosiah 18. Land of Mormon, forests of Mormon, waters of Mormon, etc. Who is compiling this record? Some guy named Mormon. What is he trying to tell us about his name? What is it associated with? More specifically, what kind of people is it associated with? Is it significant that he was given this name during a time of Nephite apostasy? My feeling is that this is one of the biggest messages hidden in plain sight in the entire Book of Mormon (there it is again!) and not without good reason.

3) How long and how many trials? I don't have a specific answer for this one, just some personal speculation. The other obvious Zion societies came about in times of tremendous calamity. Think of the people in 3 Nephi. Their entire civilization nearly collapsed before ch. 11, when everything changed. The people of Alma were similar - they were in dire straits and their dependency on God was almost 100%. I think (notice, I'm just speculating) that it takes a calamity mixed with the pure teachings of the Gospel to bring people to the point where they would choose Zion. It can be chosen at any time, in any place, by any righteous people. But the soil is best prepared after it has been thoroughly harrowed. Think of the steps required before a field is ready to be planted. I think of this as being compelled to be humble. We can choose it, sure, but it's especially easy after we've been shown how weak and dependent on God we all are.

4) Notice also that the alternative to choosing Zion in every one of these calamities is to choose the world and the arm of the flesh. This leads to the complete destruction of the Nephites, the exile of the Jews, and the expulsion of the saints from Missouri.

Again, just my thoughts on the matter.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Observation # 4 above is just where we are at today, right on the very eve of pending destruction.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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The Economics of Zion:
"The first rule of economics is that everyone should provide, as far as possible, for himself. The second, which receives vastly more attention in the scriptures, is that man's wants are few. "Having food and raiment," says Paul, "let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8). "If we have our hundreds or thousands," says Brother Brigham, "we may foster the idea that we have nothing more than we need; but such a notion is entirely erroneous, for our real wants are very limited. What do we absolutely need? I possess everything on the face of the earth that I need, as I appear before you on this stand." With our real wants thus modest, there is plenty on earth for everyone, "for the earth is full and there is enough and to spare" (D&C 104:17), and no excuse whatever for competitive grabbing—"wherefore the world lieth in sin" (D&C 49:20). To take more than we need is to take what does not belong to us...

"Says Brigham Young, "The Latter-day Saints, in their conduct and acts with regard to financial matters, are like the rest of the world. The course pursued by men of business in the world has a tendency to make a few rich, and to sink the masses of the people in poverty and degradation. Too many of the Elders of Israel take this course. No matter what comes they are for gain—for gathering around them riches; and when they get rich, how are those riches used? Spent on the lusts of the flesh." As to the idler eating the bread of the laborer, "I have seen many cases . . .," says Brigham, "when the young lady would have to take her clothing on a Saturday night and wash it, in order that she might go to meeting on the Sunday with a clean dress on. Who is she laboring for? For those who, many of them, are living in luxury. And, to serve the classes that are living on them, the poor, laboring men and women are toiling, working their lives out to earn that which will keep a little life within them. Is this equality? No! What is going to be done? The Latter-day Saints will never accomplish their mission until this inequality shall cease on the earth." "The earth is here, and the fullness thereof is here. It was made for man; and one man was not made to trample his fellowman under his feet, and enjoy all his hearts desires, while the thousands suffer." Regardless of who works and who doesn't, no just father is going to order one son clothed in robes and another in rags (D&C 38:26)."

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 11:00 am The Economics of Zion:
"The first rule of economics is that everyone should provide, as far as possible, for himself. The second, which receives vastly more attention in the scriptures, is that man's wants are few. "Having food and raiment," says Paul, "let us be therewith content" (1 Timothy 6:8). "If we have our hundreds or thousands," says Brother Brigham, "we may foster the idea that we have nothing more than we need; but such a notion is entirely erroneous, for our real wants are very limited. What do we absolutely need? I possess everything on the face of the earth that I need, as I appear before you on this stand." With our real wants thus modest, there is plenty on earth for everyone, "for the earth is full and there is enough and to spare" (D&C 104:17), and no excuse whatever for competitive grabbing—"wherefore the world lieth in sin" (D&C 49:20). To take more than we need is to take what does not belong to us...

"Says Brigham Young, "The Latter-day Saints, in their conduct and acts with regard to financial matters, are like the rest of the world. The course pursued by men of business in the world has a tendency to make a few rich, and to sink the masses of the people in poverty and degradation. Too many of the Elders of Israel take this course. No matter what comes they are for gain—for gathering around them riches; and when they get rich, how are those riches used? Spent on the lusts of the flesh." As to the idler eating the bread of the laborer, "I have seen many cases . . .," says Brigham, "when the young lady would have to take her clothing on a Saturday night and wash it, in order that she might go to meeting on the Sunday with a clean dress on. Who is she laboring for? For those who, many of them, are living in luxury. And, to serve the classes that are living on them, the poor, laboring men and women are toiling, working their lives out to earn that which will keep a little life within them. Is this equality? No! What is going to be done? The Latter-day Saints will never accomplish their mission until this inequality shall cease on the earth." "The earth is here, and the fullness thereof is here. It was made for man; and one man was not made to trample his fellowman under his feet, and enjoy all his hearts desires, while the thousands suffer." Regardless of who works and who doesn't, no just father is going to order one son clothed in robes and another in rags (D&C 38:26)."
In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:00 pm In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...
Excellent question! Here's some answers:
"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."
Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:
"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."
Yikes! :o

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.
Would people even be allowed to go back to a simpler life?

I was in a suburban ward of a major city for many years of my life. We had a family in the ward who was trying to live very simply by suburban standards and had CPS called on them multiple times by various people in the community. Many teachers and doctors believe you are abusing your children if you didn't have running water.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:00 pm In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...
Excellent question! Here's some answers:
"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."
Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:
"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."
Yikes! :o

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?
Need to expand on the answers. Why wouldn’t you need doctors, dentists, mechanics?

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:46 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:00 pm In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...
Excellent question! Here's some answers:
"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."
Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:
"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."
Yikes! :o

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?
Need to expand on the answers. Why wouldn’t you need doctors, dentists, mechanics?
When we live the Word of Wisdom as God commanded we would not need doctors or dentists.

If we don't drive cars and use mechanics devices, we don't need mechanics.

Adam and Eve did not have doctors, dentists or mechanics. They earned their bread by the sweat of their brow and lived trusting in God, not the arm of flesh.

I agree with the quote from Brigham Young that we are living in the world created by the arm of flesh instead of the one God made for us.

God made all we need, we just don't remember how to use it anymore. Like food and plants for medicine along with the priesthood.

Now, I know people will object to the idea we don't need doctors or dentists. Most of our modern diseases are diseases of lifestyle (I know you know this as well as any Arenera because of your position on the WOW.) Heart Disease, Type II Diabetes, and Cancer. There is an old quote form President Benson, I'll have to look for it again, that says it would take 3 generations to restore health to a family line. The grandmother would have to eat/live healthy, the mother and the daughter, then they could produce healthy children again.

As for dentists. I had a forward thinking dentist tell me to stop using toothpaste. I thought he was crazy. I had sensitive teeth that always looked yellow and I occasionally had cavities. I had to use my sensitive teeth whitening toothpaste, right? I got desperate enough after some health problems that I decided I would do a 30 day test. I would do as he directed and only brush with water first thing in the morning and last thing at night and never within 30 minutes of eating. I haven't had a cavity since. My teeth are not longer sensitive to cold. My teeth are now white. Also, I never have bad breath anymore (except right after eating garlic or onions, lol) Yes, my friends and family noticed a difference. Crazy but true. The cure was the cause!I

Every step I have taken back from the modern world, as directed by the Spirit, has made me healthier.

Michelle
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

Serragon wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:43 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.
Would people even be allowed to go back to a simpler life?

I was in a suburban ward of a major city for many years of my life. We had a family in the ward who was trying to live very simply by suburban standards and had CPS called on them multiple times by various people in the community. Many teachers and doctors believe you are abusing your children if you didn't have running water.
This, and my husband is not ready, are what hold me back from making more comprehensive changes.

Funny thing, groups can get away with what individuals can't. Look at the Homestead Heritage group in Texas or the Amish everywhere else.

Michelle
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

Post by Michelle »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:00 pm In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...
Excellent question! Here's some answers:
"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."
Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:
"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."
Yikes! :o

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?
I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

No more than Adam and Eve leaving the Garden for the wilderness, but look at the blessings they received! Worth it, I believe so!

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Michelle wrote: January 15th, 2018, 1:04 pm This, and my husband is not ready, are what hold me back from making more comprehensive changes.

Funny thing, groups can get away with what individuals can't. Look at the Homestead Heritage group in Texas or the Amish everywhere else.
Ah, therein lies the rub! Lot left, but his wife looked back. Cutting ties with Babylon is a difficult challenge even for Saints.

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Arenera
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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Michelle wrote: January 15th, 2018, 1:02 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:46 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm
Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:00 pm In this day and age, is it feasible to get by on food and clothing?

What about: shelter (house), transportation (car), energy for transportation, media to see what is going on at LDSFF, education, medical, etc...
Excellent question! Here's some answers:
"Well, here we have it: the world we have made and are making is not the world God meant us to have, and the world he made for us in the beginning is the world we must have. With our present limited knowledge we could devise a perfectly practical order of things in which there would be no need for doctors, lawyers, insurance men, dentists, auto mechanics, beauticians, generals, real estate men, prostitutes, garbage men, and used-car salesmen. Their work is justified as an unpleasant necessity, yet there have been successful human societies in which none of those professions existed, any more than dukes, earls, and kings need to exist in our society. Nature around us, such of it as has remained, admonishes us that paradise is a reality. Through modern revelations we have learned that Zion also is a reality. Paradise is the proper environment of Zion. Here we are faced with a clear-cut proposition that recent developments of world history, if nothing else, admonish us we can no longer afford to ignore. The Tenth Article of Faith contains our future: our glory or our condemnation."
Sound harsh? No worse than what Brigham Young said:
"You may take the class called merchants, also the doctors, the priests in the various sects, the lawyers, and every person engaged in any branch of business throughout the world, and as a general thing, they are all taught from their childhood to be more or less dishonest... The great majority of men who have amassed great wealth have done it at the expense of their fellows, on the principle that the doctors, the lawyers, and the merchants acquire theirs. Such men are impositions on the community."
Yikes! :o

I guess what is being recommended is a shift away from the modern world and a call to live a simpler life. That's true sacrifice, there.

Did the city of Enoch need lawyers? How about car salesmen? Professional merchants with vast stores of personal wealth?
Need to expand on the answers. Why wouldn’t you need doctors, dentists, mechanics?
When we live the Word of Wisdom as God commanded we would not need doctors or dentists.

If we don't drive cars and use mechanics devices, we don't need mechanics.

Adam and Eve did not have doctors, dentists or mechanics. They earned their bread by the sweat of their brow and lived trusting in God, not the arm of flesh.

I agree with the quote from Brigham Young that we are living in the world created by the arm of flesh instead of the one God made for us.

God made all we need, we just don't remember how to use it anymore. Like food and plants for medicine along with the priesthood.

Now, I know people will object to the idea we don't need doctors or dentists. Most of our modern diseases are diseases of lifestyle (I know you know this as well as any Arenera because of your position on the WOW.) Heart Disease, Type II Diabetes, and Cancer. There is an old quote form President Benson, I'll have to look for it again, that says it would take 3 generations to restore health to a family line. The grandmother would have to eat/live healthy, the mother and the daughter, then they could produce healthy children again.

As for dentists. I had a forward thinking dentist tell me to stop using toothpaste. I thought he was crazy. I had sensitive teeth that always looked yellow and I occasionally had cavities. I had to use my sensitive teeth whitening toothpaste, right? I got desperate enough after some health problems that I decided I would do a 30 day test. I would do as he directed and only brush with water first thing in the morning and last thing at night and never within 30 minutes of eating. I haven't had a cavity since. My teeth are not longer sensitive to cold. My teeth are now white. Also, I never have bad breath anymore (except right after eating garlic or onions, lol) Yes, my friends and family noticed a difference. Crazy but true. The cure was the cause!I

Every step I have taken back from the modern world, as directed by the Spirit, has made me healthier.
Still too vague for me. Most people live in large city areas. Everyone (including Mormons) have a different opinion on what to do and what not to do.

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Arenera wrote: January 15th, 2018, 1:57 pm Still too vague for me. Most people live in large city areas. Everyone (including Mormons) have a different opinion on what to do and what not to do.
I don't know a specific enough answer to satisfy you, but here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

1) I don't think Zion will be built in a contemporary "large city area". The one thing most successful Zion societies have in common is that they first leave Babylon, spiritually and temporally, to start anew. The saints were doing that on the Missouri frontier, then again in the Salt Lake Valley.
"Babylon is always reserved for the burning—she is never converted or reformed; though many may leave her for Zion, her fate is to be overthrown, violently, suddenly, unexpectedly, and completely by the direct intervention of God."
"God drives a wedge between Zion and Babylon, an intense mutual antipathy that constantly forces them apart. Says Brigham, "If the wicked come here they do not wish to stay, no matter how well they are treated, and I thank the Lord for it; and I want hard times, so that every person that does not wish to stay, for the sake of his religion, will leave."
What does every civilization leave behind? What is going to be the net product of our civilization? It's garbage, it's junk. You can see that, and it's mounting. It sounds rhetorical: we have to produce things (expand in producing); then we have to increase consumption, so we have to increase desire for things with advertising flim-flam; then we have to consume very fast and discard a great deal, because there is available a new and improved version. So discarding goes on, as Congressman Wright pointed out recently: "The principal exports of the United States today are used packages and scraps."...

What do the other civilizations leave behind, the ones I call the stable ones? The ones after the manner of the old people. They leave themselves behind. Their next generation takes over and carries on. Time means nothing to them. It's an eternal order of the law. The law of consecration is an eternal order. We will just leave ourselves, the culture, behind, without any loss of product. People will have plenty to do and plenty to think of.
2) I think the notion of not needing a doctor or a dentist so frequently requires an extreme leap of faith, for myself included. However, over the last few years I have come to notice how my family's reliance on doctors has actually caused more harm than good. Without going into too much detail, there was a specific time when I felt spiritually prompted to not rely on doctors to resolve a particular issue we were having. I chose not to listen to that prompting and we paid very dearly for it. I should have put more faith in the Lord and less in the arm of the flesh.

3) Why don't we need auto mechanics or insurance salesmen? Insurance salesmen is a given (I hope), but as far as auto mechanics go, I would think consecrating one's time and talents involves bringing what you have to the table and offering it up for the good of the people. We see this on a small level in church service already - everyone brings a bit of their skills and time to lift others, no matter how minor it may seem. Now think of what that would look like on a full time, much grander scale. We would all still be equal, no matter how important the skill we bring, because we are all bringing our best. Perhaps that's how "no doctors" really plays out in the end - those with healing skills will bring them to the table.

I'll comment more later when I've had time to reflect a bit more. Thanks for making me think. :)

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Re: Approaching Zion - Selected Quotes

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Here's a bit more on how Brigham saw the role of individuals with skills being used in a Zion society. I shall call this section,

The Consecration Reformation of 1875:
Things had gone so far by 1875 that another Reformation was in order. President Young at conference spoke on "the great duty that rested upon the Saints to put in operation God's purposes with regard to the United Order, by the consecration of the private wealth to the common good of the people. The underlying principle of the United Order was that there should be no rich and no poor, that men's talents should be used for the common good, and that selfish interests should make way for a more benevolent and generous spirit among the Saints."

In response, "The whole assembly [of the priesthood] voted to renew their covenants, and later the Presidency, the Twelve, the Seventies, and the Presiding Bishop were baptized and entered into a special covenant to observe the rules of the United Order. . . . This movement became general throughout the Church."
What would be the response if the Presidency of the Church called for a return to the United Order and invited members to renew their commitment to it by way of baptism?

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The Atonement and The Economy

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The final chapter of Approaching Zion focuses on the Atonement. I'll lead off with this quote:
The Atonement and the Economy

It is interesting that in the Book of Mormon every teaching of the Atonement includes, as the principal condition of its fulfillment, the observance of certain economic practices. Why should anything as spiritual as the Atonement be so worldly? It is because of the nature of the sacrifice we must make.

If we would have God "apply the atoning blood of Christ" (Mosiah 4:2) to our case, we can also reject it. We can take advantage of it or we can refuse it. The Atonement is either dead to us or it is in full effect. It is the supreme sacrifice made for us, and to receive it we must live up to every promise and covenant related to it—the Day of Atonement was the day of covenants, and the place was the temple.

By very definition we cannot pay a partial tithe—but then tithing is not among the covenants, since it is only a partial sacrifice, or rather, as my grandfather used to say, no sacrifice at all but only a token contribution from our increase. And if we cannot pay a partial tithe, neither can we keep the law of chastity in a casual and convenient way, nor solemnly accept it as St. Augustine did, as to be operative at some future time ("God give me chastity and continency, only not yet!"82). We cannot enjoy optional obedience to the law of God, or place our own limits on the law of sacrifice, or mitigate the charges of righteous conduct connected with the law of the gospel. We cannot be willing to sacrifice only that which is convenient to part with, and then expect a reward. The Atonement is everything; it is not to be had "on the cheap." God is not mocked in these things; we do not make promises and covenants with mental reservations. Unless we live up to every covenant, we are literally in Satan's power—a condition easily recognized by the mist of fraud and deception that has enveloped our whole society.

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The Atonement and The Economy

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Followed by this quote:
Joined with the law of sacrifice is the law of consecration, which has no limiting "if necessary" clause; we agree to it unconditionally here and now. It represents our contribution to our salvation. The same rule applied in Israel. On the tenth day of the seventh month, the Day of Atonement, was held the great assembly of the entire nation, "an holy convocation . . . [to] afflict your souls" (Leviticus 23:27), for the purpose of bringing a special "sin offering of atonement" (Numbers 29:11). The trumpet of the Jubilee was sounded, "proclaiming liberty to all the inhabitants" and announcing the seven-times-seventh year (Leviticus 25:8-10), the Jubilee year when all debts were canceled and no profits were taken (Leviticus 25:14-17). This is the indispensable step to achieving Atonement for the people, since it is debt to each other that keeps men from being one: there can be no Zion of rich and poor. It is a depressing thought that the law of consecration should be the hardest sacrifice for us to make, instead of the easiest. But this is made perfectly clear to us in the story of the rich young man who zealously kept all the commandments but was stopped cold by that one: "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions," and Jesus sorrowfully let him go—there was no deal, no mitigation of the terms (Matthew 19:22; Luke 18:18-30). "If ye are not one ye are not mine" (D&C 38:27), and you cannot be one in spiritual things unless ye are one in temporal things (D&C 70:14).

Atonement is both individual and collective. That is what Zion is—"of one heart and one mind" (Moses 7:18), not only one with each other but with the Lord. So in 3 Nephi 11, after the Lord had contact with every member of the multitude personally, "one by one" (3 Nephi 11:14-15), "when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying: Hosannah! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him" (3 Nephi 11:16-17). That was a true at-one-ment. Now, the law of consecration is expressly designed "for the establishment of Zion," where "they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them" (Moses 7:18). For that we must consecrate everything we have to the whole, losing nothing, for we are all one. To consecrate means to set apart, sanctify, and relinquish our own personal interest in the manner designated in the Doctrine and Covenants. It is the final decisive law and covenant by which we formally accept the Atonement and merit a share in it.

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