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True
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by True »

gardener4life wrote: December 26th, 2017, 12:25 am The only sources of scripture that are free of mistakes is the Book of Mormon. (You will probably argue against that too because that's what you do.) And the only approved learning sources are the standard works, possibly the hymn book, the gospel principle and Sunday school books, and approved literature. That's because we know those are free of error.

Journal of Discourses isn't approved material. Why are you quoting it? Are you trying to prove you are right by showing flaws in a priesthood holder? By doing so you will confuse people around you that are young in their testimonies. Is that really what you should be doing? And I've had seminary teachers tell me years and years ago to stay away from it (Journal of Discourses) and that it has errors.

You guys keep quoting the Journal of Discourses like it's scripture. I would be really careful about that. A lot of people get mixed up by putting a secondary book before the Book of Mormon and the real scriptures, or use them to pick flaws out in priesthood leaders. One time in a ward a few years ago they had to keep bringing the Bishop into Gospel Doctrine because the teacher kept teaching Hugh Nibley book ideas as scripture instead of the real scriptures. She kind of embarrassed herself and had to be publicly corrected because she was leading people off. IF there weren't victims she wouldn't have had to be corrected in front of others. Simons Ryder started doing what you are doing by trying to look for errors instead of building his own testimony and others) and then apostatized because of a flaw he perceived in Joseph Smith. And who kept bringing up the flaw to that? That person didn't help. (his name was spelled wrong.) And if you don't fall away yourself, you will be the instrument of causing others to fall away. And then you started out saying you admit Adam God is wrong and then at the end sound like you are promoting it again by saying another championed it.

I don't want to offend you but every time I turn away from here yet another false idea pops up or bringing up some flaw in a prophet (which is the same thing). You shouldn't be doing that. That's shaky ground to be trying to show flaws in a prophet. People grab onto that and use it for persecution. And this tactic of picking flaws in prophets is a trap Satan uses a lot.

One of the reasons we don't accept everything quoting people as scripture or acceptable teaching material is because the people taking it down might have mixed up wording too. And do you really think that you know the gospel better than Brigham Young?

And how do you know what you read in that so called book that Brigham Young quoted was even quoting it right? The typewriter wasn't in mass production until only a few years before his death (the year the typewriter was invented and mass produced are different by quite a bit). And even then you could only get them in certain parts of the world (not Utah yet). And I doubt they had access to it They didn't have tons of paper and resources in Pioneer era Utah. They wrote stuff by hand, and I doubt they could keep up to a speaker that wasn't waiting for them. And if there was bad hand writing they might have guessed what someone said. He could have gotten tongue tied maybe from meaning one thing but it didn't sound like he intended (which does happen to people due to fear of public speaking and or dehydration or other reasons.) And because the J of Discourses was never meant to be teaching material it wasn't really edited right. When something is edited then you correct what needs adjusting, clarify something, and make sure you don't confuse people. People misquote stuff too. You will never know if mistakes in there are editor, note takers perceptions, or mistakes, instead of the teacher (very likely note takers could be culprits, most those people had no formal education and very little access to books.)

You could cause harm by your misplacing something that isn't scripture going before scripture, and by continually bringing up flaws on someone that you never met. I don't know about you but it sounds impossible to perfectly quote someone's talk word for word in the 1800s before they had the technology to be able to do so. And you are so sure that's accurate what you are reading?

Also people have tampered with the Journal of Wilford Woodruff. I saw two versions, and one of them looked as if it was trying to cause harm. Sometimes you get wolves wearing sheep's clothing. And even back then they did have those too. And you know saying someone is putting history first or history into perspective isn't a good idea. You put the Spirit and scriptures first, and history later. History is perception and people have never been able to cut their perceptions and bias away from truth when trying to document truth, so there will be errors with documented history. You should be questioning whoever documented history over questioning a prophet. That right there tells me something is off. Why would someone question and doubt the prophet first instead of questioning the documentor(s) or the supposed history?

You should just say sorry and move on. This is a real issue that people have to square in their minds. I have finally put it away in my mind after a mighty struggle. You are operating in the dark because you have not educated yourself in church history and so have unwittingly drawn attention to this issue.

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... n_Adam.pdf

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by gardener4life »

I don't have to say sorry for speaking the truth.

The fact is you guys are speaking evil of the Lord's anointed. And that's serious. And you guys shouldn't ask the only one defending truth to step down to apologize when you don't know what's right or wrong. You made covenants to not speak evil of the Lord's anointed. And yet you are doing so and even can't understand why I would point that out.

I do know history too. And I've read those things. But you don't realize people can falsify history and tweak it to their own ends. And you are creating a situation where people should trust a modern man who is just a man on the internet over presidents of the church. How does that even make sense to you?

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True
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by True »

I have read their own journals saying the same thing from their own mouths. To compile it in one place or cite prophets is not blasphemous or speaking evil of them.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by gardener4life »

Chapter 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy-Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young. ...President Young warned that “when a man begins to find fault” with Church leaders and teachings, “you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy” (DBY, 83).

Are you sure about that?

If you are pointing out their faults or trying to 'show errors' then you are discrediting them, whether you believe you are or aren't. This is the same concept as you can still sin when you don't realize that it's a sin. And when you are discrediting church leaders intentionally or not that is still evil speaking of them when you are trying to point out flaws in their person or character. And you guys have done that publicly here on the internet rather than in private. And you have Elder Ballard quoting the Old Ship Zion for his talks this year and last. The Old Ship Zion was an idea Brigham Young used. So who do you think is trying to get you to point out his faults? It's not God, and starts with S.

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inho
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by inho »

alaris wrote: December 26th, 2017, 12:10 pm Bearing that in mind, I am almost done with my article on MMP. I encourage you and anyone who can even give space to plant a seed to read it and hope anyone looking to shame into silence any open dialogue regarding such will reconsider. Until you know the mysteries of God in full, it's probably not a good idea to declare things that can't be that haven't been declared so by an active prophet and confirmed to you by the Holy Ghost. How easy would it be for an active prophet to say, "Multiple Mortal Probations is false?" Reincarnation is a separate doctrine that includes returning in the body of an animal or plant.
Most members have never even heard of Multiple Mortal Probations, so I wouldn't expect a prophet to comment on it. Personally, I don't believe in MMP, but I will read your article, when you finish it. So far, I haven't seen presentation of MMP that would be completely free of problems.

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Alaris
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Alaris »

inho wrote: December 26th, 2017, 1:42 pm
alaris wrote: December 26th, 2017, 12:10 pm Bearing that in mind, I am almost done with my article on MMP. I encourage you and anyone who can even give space to plant a seed to read it and hope anyone looking to shame into silence any open dialogue regarding such will reconsider. Until you know the mysteries of God in full, it's probably not a good idea to declare things that can't be that haven't been declared so by an active prophet and confirmed to you by the Holy Ghost. How easy would it be for an active prophet to say, "Multiple Mortal Probations is false?" Reincarnation is a separate doctrine that includes returning in the body of an animal or plant.
Most members have never even heard of Multiple Mortal Probations, so I wouldn't expect a prophet to comment on it. Personally, I don't believe in MMP, but I will read your article, when you finish it. So far, I haven't seen presentation of MMP that would be completely free of problems.
Thanks inho - constructive feedback is always welcome! I'll post in a new thread as to not hijack this thread.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by SAM »

alaris, I've spent the day on a road trip, reading your posts on the levels of mankind. Lots of really interesting info! Thanks for taking time to write out all of the things you've studied and learned. I've believed in MMP for some time now. However, I've never studied or thought about it in such depth. You've done a lot of work so that's very kind of you to share your insights.

One question I have for you is what you believe happens to people who don't progress to higher rungs on Jacob's ladder. It makes sense that as people continue to ascend, less and less people make it to the higher levels. However, that leaves a lot of people on the lower levels. Do you believe they just keep going back down to other probations, do they rest, do they at some point just stop progressing? I have my theories but I'm curious how you think it works.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Alaris »

SAM wrote: December 26th, 2017, 10:04 pm alaris, I've spent the day on a road trip, reading your posts on the levels of mankind. Lots of really interesting info! Thanks for taking time to write out all of the things you've studied and learned. I've believed in MMP for some time now. However, I've never studied or thought about it in such depth. You've done a lot of work so that's very kind of you to share your insights.

One question I have for you is what you believe happens to people who don't progress to higher rungs on Jacob's ladder. It makes sense that as people continue to ascend, less and less people make it to the higher levels. However, that leaves a lot of people on the lower levels. Do you believe they just keep going back down to other probations, do they rest, do they at some point just stop progressing? I have my theories but I'm curious how you think it works.
Thanks SAM. I started a new thread so as to not hijack this thread about how MMP can't exist. I'll quote you over there and answer.


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47356

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harakim
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by harakim »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 9:21 pm This is ridiculous - What our spirit learns stays with us including the knowledge we gain, ordinance we have including baptism the PH and eternal marriage can never be taken, except by our own wickedness. Whatever God does is forever the infusing our intelligence into a spiritual body can't be undone -i have tried and searched all means it simply cant be done. Likewise the resurrection is final merger of an immortal body with an immortal spirit never to be separated again. There are only two estates our first prior to getting a mortal, and our mortal existence.
We all forget things so I don't know how you can be so definitive. I had amnesia and some stuff is just gone.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Spaced_Out »

harakim wrote: January 6th, 2018, 8:50 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 9:21 pm This is ridiculous - What our spirit learns stays with us including the knowledge we gain, ordinance we have including baptism the PH and eternal marriage can never be taken, except by our own wickedness. Whatever God does is forever the infusing our intelligence into a spiritual body can't be undone -i have tried and searched all means it simply cant be done. Likewise the resurrection is final merger of an immortal body with an immortal spirit never to be separated again. There are only two estates our first prior to getting a mortal, and our mortal existence.
We all forget things so I don't know how you can be so definitive. I had amnesia and some stuff is just gone.
It is knowledge we gain through decision making, right and wrong sweet and bitter. We overcome mortal weaknesses gain faith and testimony of Christ, relationships we make, type of spirit that possess us in this life all go with us to the afterlife. Testimony gained cant be taken.
The world to come is very different to this life as it is coupled with eternal glory- that is our mansion prepared in the afterlife never to be lost, depending on how we preform in this life.

The scriptures also teach we will have a prefect recollection of all things in the life to come, our mortal minds will no longer be a hindrance. Family relationship and individual relationship continue D&C 130. How much joy will we have with those that have been converted. There is simply no way to match these doctrines with MMP. Knowledge rises with us in the Resurrection - there is no going back to mortality. The scriptures are definitive - there is no way to interpret it any other way.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:2
2 And that same asociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with beternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

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sandman45
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by sandman45 »

In MMP I’m pretty sure you are never ever “born” through the normal mortal way again Pretty sure its “fall” like Adam and Eve. Now with that thought it does NOT disrespect the Atonement of an Only Begotten Son. Can anyone else clarify?

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Spaced_Out »

harakim wrote: January 6th, 2018, 8:50 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 9:21 pm This is ridiculous - What our spirit learns stays with us including the knowledge we gain, ordinance we have including baptism the PH and eternal marriage can never be taken, except by our own wickedness. Whatever God does is forever the infusing our intelligence into a spiritual body can't be undone -i have tried and searched all means it simply cant be done. Likewise the resurrection is final merger of an immortal body with an immortal spirit never to be separated again. There are only two estates our first prior to getting a mortal, and our mortal existence.
We all forget things so I don't know how you can be so definitive. I had amnesia and some stuff is just gone.
We are also told that we received lessons in the spirit world that were to help us with our life mission. All those great and noble spirits that came down to earth/mortality had veil put over their minds - this also induces all people, but they brought with them their learning and spiritual/character strength. Our spirit learns things like sweet and bitter, right and wrong -those learning can never be taken from us.
Sealing to a spouse is never taken if one remains faithful, knowledge of the endowment, baptism -gift of the Holy Ghost - knowledge authority and power that come with having obtained by those ordinances - can never be removed from our spirit and immortal body after the resurrection.

No death or veil over our minds can remove that knowledge and the scriptures are sure we get a perfect knowledge of our life after death and also a knowledge of the preexistence that will never be taken from us.

Abraham 3:23-24
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Spaced_Out »

sandman45 wrote: January 6th, 2018, 9:39 pm In MMP I’m pretty sure you are never ever “born” through the normal mortal way again Pretty sure its “fall” like Adam and Eve. Now with that thought it does NOT disrespect the Atonement of an Only Begotten Son. Can anyone else clarify?
It does as we are promised immortality and eternal life after death if we remain faithful, and sealing to spouse is never taken - it makes a mockery of the Atonement saying Christ atonement is no good as we have to again become mortal flesh and again die both spiritually and physically - so there is no such thing immortality and eternal life.

Through the atonement of Christ all mankind can be saved and we go into eternal rest, children born before the age of accountability are save in the kingdom of God, MMP teaches there is no saving or eternal rest as we have to continue to again and again in mortal state dying and being resurrected to something that is not immortal - as an immortal being cant become mortal again.
Basically saying the atonement of Christ is insufficient to save us we to continue again and again.

The only person who was not born of a woman on this earth is Adam and Eve -and the scriptures are clear that Adam was the first flesh - then came Eve made of a rib of Adam , and they were made by putting their spirit into a body of clay fashioned after Christ spirit body - as Christ only had a spiritual body at that stage as he was not born yet..

Christ the greatest of all was born by natural means - how does your doctrine fit that.....

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sandman45
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by sandman45 »

No that’s not MMP at all. And Adam and Eve were born to parents of a different earth. They were placed here and fell from Immortality. Which means they were resurrected from their earth.

Since u say it does all this mocking link me some references to prove that it does mock the atonement and Christ.


Lol it’s not MY doctrine.. also I think you have the creation a little mixed up.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Spaced_Out »

sandman45 wrote: January 6th, 2018, 10:03 pm No that’s not MMP at all. And Adam and Eve were born to parents of a different earth. They were placed here and fell from Immortality. Which means they were resurrected from their earth.

Since u say it does all this mocking link me some references to prove that it does mock the atonement and Christ.
Lol it’s not MY doctrine.. also I think you have the creation a little mixed up.
There is no teaching or scripture that Adam came from a different world.. False doctrine.
The scriptures clearly teach that all things were created spiritually and there was no physical creation prior to Adam being placed on earth. Adams spirit was placed into a body that Christ fashioned out of the dust of the earth after the manner of His spiritual body. MMP is a total mockery of Christ, resurrection and the scriptures - again all those that die will be reunited with physical immortal body never to be separated again. Key element of the atonement is immortality and eternal life - MMP there is no immortality...

I have given plenty of references that we are saved and every person on earth will be resurrected and those faithful will inherit eternal life never to be separated from Father or Son. Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection Adam died both spiritually and physically - he could never of had a previous immortal body.

Alma 11:45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

D&C 138
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.


Alma 41
3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—
5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.
8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

12 And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?

Alma 40:2
2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection—or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption—until after the coming of Christ.
Last edited by Spaced_Out on January 6th, 2018, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Spaced_Out »

One needs to realise that living in the flesh is extremely taxing and difficult and dreadful compared to being in heaven - the scriptures refer to mortality as corruption being in the presence of sin. The very thought of being in mortality and suffering pain of birth and death etc.. caused 1/3 of the host of heaven to reject the plan and never to receive a physical body.

The scriptures talk about Christ overcoming the bands of death and redeeming his people. In D&C 76 it clearly states that all those in the telestrial/spirit prison will be redeemed at the end of the millennium after suffering as Christ suffered, and be resurrected to a kingdom of Glory.

Likewise we read in D&C 138 that Christ appeared to all the righteous dead from Adam down to Christ and declared their redemption from the bands of death and the requirements of the resurrection had been fulfilled, and they were to be reunited with their bodies never to be separated again so they could receive a fullness of joy.

Christ overcame the sting of death or bands of death. All were spirit prior to coming to earth/mortality and all will be redeemed and receive an immortal body never to die again that is the promise of the atonement that was given in the grand council of heaven - that was the plan we defended and agreed to. There is no possibility of having lived a mortal life prior to this earth neither Adam or Christ and there is no possibility of any after the final resurrection and judgement of ever tasting death or seeing corruption again as all are redeemed, that is the work and promise of the Atonement. .

D&C 138
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

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inho
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by inho »

sandman45 wrote: January 6th, 2018, 9:39 pm In MMP I’m pretty sure you are never ever “born” through the normal mortal way again Pretty sure its “fall” like Adam and Eve. Now with that thought it does NOT disrespect the Atonement of an Only Begotten Son. Can anyone else clarify?
That sounds more like the traditional fundamentalist Adam-God theory. If you look at what Alaris is teaching in his MMP thread, it seems like he is believing in multiple normal births.

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Alaris
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Alaris »

CelestialAngel wrote: January 7th, 2018, 2:42 pm Look, I wouldn't have a problem if I've already gone through multiple mortal probations before, I just want this mortal probation to be my last stop of being mortal, you know? I don't want to go through physical pain again after this life. I want to be resurrected and gain exaltation.
Thank you for your honesty. My mother has struggled with her testimony and has said many times, "Why would anyone choose to go through what I went through?" She went through hell as a child. Recently, she mentioned this to me again, and the spirit prompted me to respond to her, "Would you go through it so that none of your children nor your chidlren's children have to go through it?" My point was, of course, that she broke that cycle of abuse.

That was an easy answer for my mother who is the most giving, loving, sacrificing person I know. That is the motivation that lies at the heart of suffering through this veil of tears by the beings who are more advanced than we - charity & the pure love of Christ.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

The idea of reincarnation was part of the beliefs around Jesus:
“Jesus...asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” -Matt 16

If the essence of who we are is conscious energy... and energy never zaps out of existence but changes form, reincarnation makes perfect sense. The understandable problem many have with it (besides being against their religious dictates) is we kind of get attached and identified with our bodies. But IMO, old age & death serve the purpose of helping us let go of such attachments.

... I wasn’t going to go here but... You bring up the atonement as if it is something that is obvious, but have you ever really pondered it, questioned it & prayed about it? I did for a long time. And it took me a while to realize how I’d been mistaken for believing philosophies of men that were portrayed as God’s plan but were deceptive.

“Thou shalt not kill.” Basic, so would God require human sacrifice of Jesus?
“God created man (warts & all) & saw that it was good.” So why would God change his mind and say it was bad?
“First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
Did Jesus preach scapegoating? No! Then why have we made him one?
At-one is to “make at one” what we screw up. It is NOT to blame it on a scapegoat.
“The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving.”
God planned for us to choose & sin so we could have experience & deeper ability to love. When we screw up, God would not kick us when we’re down. We are punished by the consequences of our sins, not for or in addition to them. God designed for us to sin so we’d humble ourselves & come to God and God would make weak things strong. We need to accept what God accepted and even saw as good - our human nature as works in progress... Humbly accept it while striving to do and be better.

Jesus also warned AGAINST worshipping him but that’s been dismissed too.
For people who want even more... Jesus showed us the way and repeatedly said “come follow me” and that includes searching our souls and without being excessively punitive ;), seeing that we each have a part in humanities sins. Yes, we have saviors in person and in spirit but they are not human sacrifice scapegoats. IMO, the epitomy of evil is not so much sinning (as God created us to do to learn), but denying our sin, shifting blame and trying to make another pay. It doesn’t matter that this idea of human sacrifice scapegoat is as common in tradition as “pass the salt & pepper.” When something is not of God, but assumed it is, it can damn us (hold us back) spiritually.

I usually don’t bring this up, partly because some aren’t ready for it. They need their false god until they’re ready to see that it’s false. It is comforting to believe someone would love me so much he’d die for me! But human sacrifice scapegoating is simply not of God. And we cannot afford to base faith on such shaky deception! I believe in Christ & many beautiful scriptures but I don’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating & don’t need that to feel loved. When I think about the many people in my family who have died but have made it possible for me to live and the countless angels who have helped me - & when I see how God has blessed me with so much like a miraculously beating heart - I know I’m loved.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

I've been checking on this thread - waiting for someone to respond to what I posted, but nothing. Yet, many views, so I thought maybe I need to offer something since, it may seem that I was taking something big away.

Again, I believe in Christ. But I acknowledge that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become and do as he did and more!

Still, I see good that comes from Christianity even though it's been warped. Maybe, as in all parables and spiritual stories, the story of Jesus, can be taken on different levels. IE:
0. (This mostly applies to us LDS)... No real attention to Jesus, because the focus is more on the church.

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral. I'm wondering what is of God. Who is God? What's the spiritual map - is there one? What do I do with the paradox of accepting my life-time human-nature of being flawed, while striving to do better? What's the meaning of this all? If I was mistaken about Jesus, what else am I mistaken about? What can I know - and what is worth knowing?"

4. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness. Considering that maybe, Jesus's life was a map to help guide us to be Christ-like. Seeing myself as I see the series of parables that represent Jesus... "likening" it all to me/us. Let's see, what did Jesus do that was noted that I may do to become more Christ-like?
  • *Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
    *Honored his parents, while honoring God.
    *Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
    *Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
    *Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
    *Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
    *Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
    *Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
    *Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."
This is a bit like Fowler's stages of Faith, except more specific to Christianity. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

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Thinker
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

I don’t pretend to have it all figured out, but I’m trying to ensure my foundation is firm - based on truth not deception, no matter how familiar that deception is. I’ve seen many people find out some crazy thing about the church &/or Christianity and then they freak out, crash & burn - tearing up families and lives. That doesn’t have to happen. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (so to speak). Realize just as there’s good and bad in everyone, there is also both in religious beliefs handed down. Take the best, leave the rest.

We cannot afford to have faith based on deception - because it will eventually crumble. Faith needs to be built on truth and the openness to seeking and incorporating truth “wherever it’s found.” Only then can we withstand the firey darts of the enemy.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by BruceRGilbert »

"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars in order to become acquainted with the butterflies." The Little Prince by St. Exupery

I am addressing my remarks to you, Thinker as I perceive a catharsis in your actualization; a pivotal time.
Thinker wrote: I've been checking on this thread - waiting for someone to respond to what I posted, but nothing. Yet, many views, so I thought maybe I need to offer something since, it may seem that I was taking something big away.

Again, I believe in Christ. But I acknowledge that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become and do as he did and more!

Still, I see good that comes from Christianity even though it's been warped. Maybe, as in all parables and spiritual stories, the story of Jesus, can be taken on different levels. IE:
0. (This mostly applies to us LDS)... No real attention to Jesus, because the focus is more on the church.

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral. I'm wondering what is of God. Who is God? What's the spiritual map - is there one? What do I do with the paradox of accepting my life-time human-nature of being flawed, while striving to do better? What's the meaning of this all? If I was mistaken about Jesus, what else am I mistaken about? What can I know - and what is worth knowing?"

4. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness. Considering that maybe, Jesus's life was a map to help guide us to be Christ-like. Seeing myself as I see the series of parables that represent Jesus... "likening" it all to me/us. Let's see, what did Jesus do that was noted that I may do to become more Christ-like?
  • *Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
    *Honored his parents, while honoring God.
    *Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
    *Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
    *Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
    *Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
    *Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
    *Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
    *Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."
This is a bit like Fowler's stages of Faith, except more specific to Christianity. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
One of the reasons that I got out of psychology, Thinker, was because - like you - I was very analytical. It got to the point that I would look for ulterior motives in peoples behavior. I found that I could not be "spontaneous" in a relationship because of "analysis paralysis." I was developing a basic mistrust of people in an attempt to understand them better than they did themselves. I couldn't take them at "face value." They weren't saying and acting "real" and it was a "facade" masquerading as something else in our "exchanges." It had started affecting all of my relationships. I came to realize, at least for myself . . . because it is a relative and not an absolute . . . that it was my "false religion." I found that "political correctness" and "ethics" did not permit me to tell someone who was engaged in voluntary "dysfunctional" behavior that the reason for their depression was due to sin. "Wickedness can never bring happiness." I made the mistake of "living in my head" and not being in touch with the real world. Cognition alone cannot resolve human weaknesses. Man is incapable of adding one cubit to his height. It doesn't work that way. In other words, no amount of meditation, pondering or thinking on an individuals part can resolve their blindness . . . but, feeling can. The solution and model to my personal quest for making a difference in the world and for others was right in front of me the whole time . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It involves "whole soul" effort, inclusive of the Mind (Thinking,) Heart (Feeling) and Body (Strength and Might.)

Image

Principles that have helped me:

1.) Falling is a necessary part of learning how to walk. (Warts and all.)
2.) Judgment is meant for identification and not condemnation. (Fruit sampling.)
3.) If I make allowances for myself, of necessity, I must make allowances for others. (Tolerance and Patience.)

The Process of Coming to Know . . . .
1.) Recognition 2.) Association 3.) Emulation
Comprehend Understand Realize
Mind Heart Soul
Justification Sanctification Purification
(Innocence) (Holiness) (Purity - Perfection)
(Telestial) (Terrestrial) (Celestial)
Holy Ghost Spirit of Christ Fullness
(Confirmation) (Sacrament) (Parting of the Veil)
Calling Election Made Sure
(Washings) (Annointings) (Sealings)
Prophet Priest King
(Prophetess) (Priestess) (Queen)
Elias Elijah Messiah
Aaronic Melchizedek Patriarchal

I concur with you, Thinker, that at a time in our growth and development we no longer need a "scapegoat," nor a "whipping boy" to take our punishment. I would suppose that it would be that time when we are Intellectually Honest and Mature, as well as Emotionally Honest and Mature to be responsible for our own selves. After we have received the "more sure word," whether by the Lord's voice or His servants, we become responsible for ourselves and the Savior becomes a personal Mentor. It is one thing to have "faith" and quite another to have "knowledge." It is one thing to be on probation, and quite another to be trusted. I wish I could share.

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Thinker
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

BruceRGilbert wrote: January 20th, 2018, 1:49 amI am addressing my remarks to you, Thinker as I perceive a catharsis in your actualization; a pivotal time.
Thanks for your consideration, Bruce. Yeah, I guess it's pivotal. Technically, it's been a few years since I had a faith crisis, but I do realize I have some major work to do and leaps to make.
One of the reasons that I got out of psychology, Thinker, was because - like you - I was very analytical. It got to the point that I would look for ulterior motives in peoples behavior. I found that I could not be "spontaneous" in a relationship because of "analysis paralysis." I was developing a basic mistrust of people in an attempt to understand them better than they did themselves. I couldn't take them at "face value." They weren't saying and acting "real" and it was a "facade" masquerading as something else in our "exchanges." It had started affecting all of my relationships. I came to realize, at least for myself . . . because it is a relative and not an absolute . . . that it was my "false religion." I found that "political correctness" and "ethics" did not permit me to tell someone who was engaged in voluntary "dysfunctional" behavior that the reason for their depression was due to sin. "Wickedness can never bring happiness." I made the mistake of "living in my head" and not being in touch with the real world. Cognition alone cannot resolve human weaknesses. Man is incapable of adding one cubit to his height. It doesn't work that way. In other words, no amount of meditation, pondering or thinking on an individuals part can resolve their blindness . . . but, feeling can. The solution and model to my personal quest for making a difference in the world and for others was right in front of me the whole time . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It involves "whole soul" effort, inclusive of the Mind (Thinking,) Heart (Feeling) and Body (Strength and Might.)

Although I really love psychology (and see it as inseparable to spirituality), I too, have been hesitant to focus on it as a career. I once taught a parenting class - I'm qualified I guess - right degree, I've parented, but I felt so much pressure to walk the talk perfectly. I felt like I needed to be a perfect parent, or else I was being hypocritical - and I just couldn't take the pressure so I finished the course and then didn't teach it again. I realize this is a flaw and not correct, but it's how I see and feel about it. And I've heard similar things of people in psychology and spiritual leadership roles - higher stats of depression etc.

I realize that emotional intelligence is important - (even more than IQ when it comes to "success"). I work on this by exploring feelings - even the most uncomfortable ones - and often as I put them in words, I can harmonize feeling and thought.

I get the sense that I'm still missing something of what you were trying to tell me about the gospel of Christ involving whole soul effort. What am I missing?
I concur with you, Thinker, that at a time in our growth and development we no longer need a "scapegoat," nor a "whipping boy" to take our punishment. I would suppose that it would be that time when we are Intellectually Honest and Mature, as well as Emotionally Honest and Mature to be responsible for our own selves. After we have received the "more sure word," whether by the Lord's voice or His servants, we become responsible for ourselves and the Savior becomes a personal Mentor. It is one thing to have "faith" and quite another to have "knowledge." It is one thing to be on probation, and quite another to be trusted. I wish I could share.
I'm glad you can relate and see the need of being more responsible for our own relationship to God and spiritual development. What do you mean by "more sure word"? I tend to believe that faith is the 1st and continuing principle of spirituality. The moment I think I "know" is when I shut myself off to learning more. However, I also see the need to put so much faith in some idea so that you can act on it - because faith without works is dead.

This is being really blunt, but I think you'll understand and know I mean well in striving for clarity. Jesus, Heavenly Father and Mother (and for some in other religions angels, etc), serve as symbols for us to spiritually resonate. My idea of God when I pray as Heavenly Father and Mother is probably very limited compared to what God is really about, but I can only imagine what I can imagine at this time. Imagining Jesus as someone who saves me from my sins is in a way, kind of evil because it's trying to shift blame and make another pay instead of making at-one what I broke up, as much as I can. It's a bit like kids understanding Santa Clause before understanding the spirit of Christmas - Jesus is more concrete - and it's easier to worship or explore "the kingdom of God within." If I imagine Jesus to represent me and me following in his footsteps, then I am the one who is doing the soul-searching and in a way, taking on me the sins of the world - like the incorrect thoughts in collective unconscious culminating from centuries. And I am overcoming the/my world and progressing as intended.

The more I explore all of this, the more I realize why Moses gave the 1st commandment he did about not having other gods before God. The temptation is overwhelming! Paul Tillech defined God as one's ultimate concern and explained that the God one claimed to worship was not as important as the god that one actually worshipped on a daily habitual basis. IE: For me, sometimes when I've been addicted to forums, it's been my highest priority - my ultimate concern. But I strive to make it love - as in appreciating what is, while striving for what's best through trial & error - active faith. Tillech challenged to find ultimate concern with the least element of idolatry. To me, this requires an openness to learning more - realizing that we will never know it all. But it also requires faith.

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David13
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by David13 »

Thinker wrote: January 10th, 2018, 10:15 pm The idea of reincarnation was part of the beliefs around Jesus:
“Jesus...asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” -Matt 16

If the essence of who we are is conscious energy... and energy never zaps out of existence but changes form, reincarnation makes perfect sense. The understandable problem many have with it (besides being against their religious dictates) is we kind of get attached and identified with our bodies. But IMO, old age & death serve the purpose of helping us let go of such attachments.

... I wasn’t going to go here but... You bring up the atonement as if it is something that is obvious, but have you ever really pondered it, questioned it & prayed about it? I did for a long time. And it took me a while to realize how I’d been mistaken for believing philosophies of men that were portrayed as God’s plan but were deceptive.

“Thou shalt not kill.” Basic, so would God require human sacrifice of Jesus?
“God created man (warts & all) & saw that it was good.” So why would God change his mind and say it was bad?
“First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
Did Jesus preach scapegoating? No! Then why have we made him one?
At-one is to “make at one” what we screw up. It is NOT to blame it on a scapegoat.
“The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving.”
God planned for us to choose & sin so we could have experience & deeper ability to love. When we screw up, God would not kick us when we’re down. We are punished by the consequences of our sins, not for or in addition to them. God designed for us to sin so we’d humble ourselves & come to God and God would make weak things strong. We need to accept what God accepted and even saw as good - our human nature as works in progress... Humbly accept it while striving to do and be better.

Jesus also warned AGAINST worshipping him but that’s been dismissed too.
For people who want even more... Jesus showed us the way and repeatedly said “come follow me” and that includes searching our souls and without being excessively punitive ;), seeing that we each have a part in humanities sins. Yes, we have saviors in person and in spirit but they are not human sacrifice scapegoats. IMO, the epitomy of evil is not so much sinning (as God created us to do to learn), but denying our sin, shifting blame and trying to make another pay. It doesn’t matter that this idea of human sacrifice scapegoat is as common in tradition as “pass the salt & pepper.” When something is not of God, but assumed it is, it can damn us (hold us back) spiritually.

I usually don’t bring this up, partly because some aren’t ready for it. They need their false god until they’re ready to see that it’s false. It is comforting to believe someone would love me so much he’d die for me! But human sacrifice scapegoating is simply not of God. And we cannot afford to base faith on such shaky deception! I believe in Christ & many beautiful scriptures but I don’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating & don’t need that to feel loved. When I think about the many people in my family who have died but have made it possible for me to live and the countless angels who have helped me - & when I see how God has blessed me with so much like a miraculously beating heart - I know I’m loved.

I know someone in the church for a long life, with many important callings, who says ... yes we do believe in human sacrifice. Jesus died on the cross for us, as he so loved us, he died for our sins.
dc

Remember tho', I'm in the church now nearly 3 years.

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David13
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by David13 »

Thinker wrote: January 16th, 2018, 11:06 am I've been checking on this thread - waiting for someone to respond to what I posted, but nothing. Yet, many views, so I thought maybe I need to offer something since, it may seem that I was taking something big away.

Again, I believe in Christ. But I acknowledge that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become and do as he did and more!

Still, I see good that comes from Christianity even though it's been warped. Maybe, as in all parables and spiritual stories, the story of Jesus, can be taken on different levels. IE:
0. (This mostly applies to us LDS)... No real attention to Jesus, because the focus is more on the church.

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral. I'm wondering what is of God. Who is God? What's the spiritual map - is there one? What do I do with the paradox of accepting my life-time human-nature of being flawed, while striving to do better? What's the meaning of this all? If I was mistaken about Jesus, what else am I mistaken about? What can I know - and what is worth knowing?"

4. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness. Considering that maybe, Jesus's life was a map to help guide us to be Christ-like. Seeing myself as I see the series of parables that represent Jesus... "likening" it all to me/us. Let's see, what did Jesus do that was noted that I may do to become more Christ-like?
  • *Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
    *Honored his parents, while honoring God.
    *Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
    *Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
    *Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
    *Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
    *Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
    *Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
    *Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."
This is a bit like Fowler's stages of Faith, except more specific to Christianity. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

The fault in your concept of 'scapegoat' is that all are personally responsible for their sins. A scapegoat is "the devil made me do it", not the atonement for mans sins provided by Jesus Christ.

I still ask people who Jesus Christ is and they can't say much about him. One thing they say is, well, he is on the wall in the chapel. I don't like that at all, but they don't seem to care.

Who is he to you? And what does "the Christ" mean to you? Is your view as to who or what "the Christ" means the same as the church's? If not, what is the difference.
dc

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