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Thinker
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

I don’t pretend to have it all figured out, but I’m trying to ensure my foundation is firm - based on truth not deception, no matter how familiar that deception is. I’ve seen many people find out some crazy thing about the church &/or Christianity and then they freak out, crash & burn - tearing up families and lives. That doesn’t have to happen. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (so to speak). Realize just as there’s good and bad in everyone, there is also both in religious beliefs handed down. Take the best, leave the rest.

We cannot afford to have faith based on deception - because it will eventually crumble. Faith needs to be built on truth and the openness to seeking and incorporating truth “wherever it’s found.” Only then can we withstand the firey darts of the enemy.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by BruceRGilbert »

"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars in order to become acquainted with the butterflies." The Little Prince by St. Exupery

I am addressing my remarks to you, Thinker as I perceive a catharsis in your actualization; a pivotal time.
Thinker wrote: I've been checking on this thread - waiting for someone to respond to what I posted, but nothing. Yet, many views, so I thought maybe I need to offer something since, it may seem that I was taking something big away.

Again, I believe in Christ. But I acknowledge that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become and do as he did and more!

Still, I see good that comes from Christianity even though it's been warped. Maybe, as in all parables and spiritual stories, the story of Jesus, can be taken on different levels. IE:
0. (This mostly applies to us LDS)... No real attention to Jesus, because the focus is more on the church.

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral. I'm wondering what is of God. Who is God? What's the spiritual map - is there one? What do I do with the paradox of accepting my life-time human-nature of being flawed, while striving to do better? What's the meaning of this all? If I was mistaken about Jesus, what else am I mistaken about? What can I know - and what is worth knowing?"

4. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness. Considering that maybe, Jesus's life was a map to help guide us to be Christ-like. Seeing myself as I see the series of parables that represent Jesus... "likening" it all to me/us. Let's see, what did Jesus do that was noted that I may do to become more Christ-like?
  • *Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
    *Honored his parents, while honoring God.
    *Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
    *Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
    *Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
    *Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
    *Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
    *Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
    *Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."
This is a bit like Fowler's stages of Faith, except more specific to Christianity. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
One of the reasons that I got out of psychology, Thinker, was because - like you - I was very analytical. It got to the point that I would look for ulterior motives in peoples behavior. I found that I could not be "spontaneous" in a relationship because of "analysis paralysis." I was developing a basic mistrust of people in an attempt to understand them better than they did themselves. I couldn't take them at "face value." They weren't saying and acting "real" and it was a "facade" masquerading as something else in our "exchanges." It had started affecting all of my relationships. I came to realize, at least for myself . . . because it is a relative and not an absolute . . . that it was my "false religion." I found that "political correctness" and "ethics" did not permit me to tell someone who was engaged in voluntary "dysfunctional" behavior that the reason for their depression was due to sin. "Wickedness can never bring happiness." I made the mistake of "living in my head" and not being in touch with the real world. Cognition alone cannot resolve human weaknesses. Man is incapable of adding one cubit to his height. It doesn't work that way. In other words, no amount of meditation, pondering or thinking on an individuals part can resolve their blindness . . . but, feeling can. The solution and model to my personal quest for making a difference in the world and for others was right in front of me the whole time . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It involves "whole soul" effort, inclusive of the Mind (Thinking,) Heart (Feeling) and Body (Strength and Might.)

Image

Principles that have helped me:

1.) Falling is a necessary part of learning how to walk. (Warts and all.)
2.) Judgment is meant for identification and not condemnation. (Fruit sampling.)
3.) If I make allowances for myself, of necessity, I must make allowances for others. (Tolerance and Patience.)

The Process of Coming to Know . . . .
1.) Recognition 2.) Association 3.) Emulation
Comprehend Understand Realize
Mind Heart Soul
Justification Sanctification Purification
(Innocence) (Holiness) (Purity - Perfection)
(Telestial) (Terrestrial) (Celestial)
Holy Ghost Spirit of Christ Fullness
(Confirmation) (Sacrament) (Parting of the Veil)
Calling Election Made Sure
(Washings) (Annointings) (Sealings)
Prophet Priest King
(Prophetess) (Priestess) (Queen)
Elias Elijah Messiah
Aaronic Melchizedek Patriarchal

I concur with you, Thinker, that at a time in our growth and development we no longer need a "scapegoat," nor a "whipping boy" to take our punishment. I would suppose that it would be that time when we are Intellectually Honest and Mature, as well as Emotionally Honest and Mature to be responsible for our own selves. After we have received the "more sure word," whether by the Lord's voice or His servants, we become responsible for ourselves and the Savior becomes a personal Mentor. It is one thing to have "faith" and quite another to have "knowledge." It is one thing to be on probation, and quite another to be trusted. I wish I could share.

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Thinker
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Thinker »

BruceRGilbert wrote: January 20th, 2018, 1:49 amI am addressing my remarks to you, Thinker as I perceive a catharsis in your actualization; a pivotal time.
Thanks for your consideration, Bruce. Yeah, I guess it's pivotal. Technically, it's been a few years since I had a faith crisis, but I do realize I have some major work to do and leaps to make.
One of the reasons that I got out of psychology, Thinker, was because - like you - I was very analytical. It got to the point that I would look for ulterior motives in peoples behavior. I found that I could not be "spontaneous" in a relationship because of "analysis paralysis." I was developing a basic mistrust of people in an attempt to understand them better than they did themselves. I couldn't take them at "face value." They weren't saying and acting "real" and it was a "facade" masquerading as something else in our "exchanges." It had started affecting all of my relationships. I came to realize, at least for myself . . . because it is a relative and not an absolute . . . that it was my "false religion." I found that "political correctness" and "ethics" did not permit me to tell someone who was engaged in voluntary "dysfunctional" behavior that the reason for their depression was due to sin. "Wickedness can never bring happiness." I made the mistake of "living in my head" and not being in touch with the real world. Cognition alone cannot resolve human weaknesses. Man is incapable of adding one cubit to his height. It doesn't work that way. In other words, no amount of meditation, pondering or thinking on an individuals part can resolve their blindness . . . but, feeling can. The solution and model to my personal quest for making a difference in the world and for others was right in front of me the whole time . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It involves "whole soul" effort, inclusive of the Mind (Thinking,) Heart (Feeling) and Body (Strength and Might.)

Although I really love psychology (and see it as inseparable to spirituality), I too, have been hesitant to focus on it as a career. I once taught a parenting class - I'm qualified I guess - right degree, I've parented, but I felt so much pressure to walk the talk perfectly. I felt like I needed to be a perfect parent, or else I was being hypocritical - and I just couldn't take the pressure so I finished the course and then didn't teach it again. I realize this is a flaw and not correct, but it's how I see and feel about it. And I've heard similar things of people in psychology and spiritual leadership roles - higher stats of depression etc.

I realize that emotional intelligence is important - (even more than IQ when it comes to "success"). I work on this by exploring feelings - even the most uncomfortable ones - and often as I put them in words, I can harmonize feeling and thought.

I get the sense that I'm still missing something of what you were trying to tell me about the gospel of Christ involving whole soul effort. What am I missing?
I concur with you, Thinker, that at a time in our growth and development we no longer need a "scapegoat," nor a "whipping boy" to take our punishment. I would suppose that it would be that time when we are Intellectually Honest and Mature, as well as Emotionally Honest and Mature to be responsible for our own selves. After we have received the "more sure word," whether by the Lord's voice or His servants, we become responsible for ourselves and the Savior becomes a personal Mentor. It is one thing to have "faith" and quite another to have "knowledge." It is one thing to be on probation, and quite another to be trusted. I wish I could share.
I'm glad you can relate and see the need of being more responsible for our own relationship to God and spiritual development. What do you mean by "more sure word"? I tend to believe that faith is the 1st and continuing principle of spirituality. The moment I think I "know" is when I shut myself off to learning more. However, I also see the need to put so much faith in some idea so that you can act on it - because faith without works is dead.

This is being really blunt, but I think you'll understand and know I mean well in striving for clarity. Jesus, Heavenly Father and Mother (and for some in other religions angels, etc), serve as symbols for us to spiritually resonate. My idea of God when I pray as Heavenly Father and Mother is probably very limited compared to what God is really about, but I can only imagine what I can imagine at this time. Imagining Jesus as someone who saves me from my sins is in a way, kind of evil because it's trying to shift blame and make another pay instead of making at-one what I broke up, as much as I can. It's a bit like kids understanding Santa Clause before understanding the spirit of Christmas - Jesus is more concrete - and it's easier to worship or explore "the kingdom of God within." If I imagine Jesus to represent me and me following in his footsteps, then I am the one who is doing the soul-searching and in a way, taking on me the sins of the world - like the incorrect thoughts in collective unconscious culminating from centuries. And I am overcoming the/my world and progressing as intended.

The more I explore all of this, the more I realize why Moses gave the 1st commandment he did about not having other gods before God. The temptation is overwhelming! Paul Tillech defined God as one's ultimate concern and explained that the God one claimed to worship was not as important as the god that one actually worshipped on a daily habitual basis. IE: For me, sometimes when I've been addicted to forums, it's been my highest priority - my ultimate concern. But I strive to make it love - as in appreciating what is, while striving for what's best through trial & error - active faith. Tillech challenged to find ultimate concern with the least element of idolatry. To me, this requires an openness to learning more - realizing that we will never know it all. But it also requires faith.

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David13
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by David13 »

Thinker wrote: January 10th, 2018, 10:15 pm The idea of reincarnation was part of the beliefs around Jesus:
“Jesus...asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” -Matt 16

If the essence of who we are is conscious energy... and energy never zaps out of existence but changes form, reincarnation makes perfect sense. The understandable problem many have with it (besides being against their religious dictates) is we kind of get attached and identified with our bodies. But IMO, old age & death serve the purpose of helping us let go of such attachments.

... I wasn’t going to go here but... You bring up the atonement as if it is something that is obvious, but have you ever really pondered it, questioned it & prayed about it? I did for a long time. And it took me a while to realize how I’d been mistaken for believing philosophies of men that were portrayed as God’s plan but were deceptive.

“Thou shalt not kill.” Basic, so would God require human sacrifice of Jesus?
“God created man (warts & all) & saw that it was good.” So why would God change his mind and say it was bad?
“First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
Did Jesus preach scapegoating? No! Then why have we made him one?
At-one is to “make at one” what we screw up. It is NOT to blame it on a scapegoat.
“The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving.”
God planned for us to choose & sin so we could have experience & deeper ability to love. When we screw up, God would not kick us when we’re down. We are punished by the consequences of our sins, not for or in addition to them. God designed for us to sin so we’d humble ourselves & come to God and God would make weak things strong. We need to accept what God accepted and even saw as good - our human nature as works in progress... Humbly accept it while striving to do and be better.

Jesus also warned AGAINST worshipping him but that’s been dismissed too.
For people who want even more... Jesus showed us the way and repeatedly said “come follow me” and that includes searching our souls and without being excessively punitive ;), seeing that we each have a part in humanities sins. Yes, we have saviors in person and in spirit but they are not human sacrifice scapegoats. IMO, the epitomy of evil is not so much sinning (as God created us to do to learn), but denying our sin, shifting blame and trying to make another pay. It doesn’t matter that this idea of human sacrifice scapegoat is as common in tradition as “pass the salt & pepper.” When something is not of God, but assumed it is, it can damn us (hold us back) spiritually.

I usually don’t bring this up, partly because some aren’t ready for it. They need their false god until they’re ready to see that it’s false. It is comforting to believe someone would love me so much he’d die for me! But human sacrifice scapegoating is simply not of God. And we cannot afford to base faith on such shaky deception! I believe in Christ & many beautiful scriptures but I don’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating & don’t need that to feel loved. When I think about the many people in my family who have died but have made it possible for me to live and the countless angels who have helped me - & when I see how God has blessed me with so much like a miraculously beating heart - I know I’m loved.

I know someone in the church for a long life, with many important callings, who says ... yes we do believe in human sacrifice. Jesus died on the cross for us, as he so loved us, he died for our sins.
dc

Remember tho', I'm in the church now nearly 3 years.

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David13
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by David13 »

Thinker wrote: January 16th, 2018, 11:06 am I've been checking on this thread - waiting for someone to respond to what I posted, but nothing. Yet, many views, so I thought maybe I need to offer something since, it may seem that I was taking something big away.

Again, I believe in Christ. But I acknowledge that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become and do as he did and more!

Still, I see good that comes from Christianity even though it's been warped. Maybe, as in all parables and spiritual stories, the story of Jesus, can be taken on different levels. IE:
0. (This mostly applies to us LDS)... No real attention to Jesus, because the focus is more on the church.

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral. I'm wondering what is of God. Who is God? What's the spiritual map - is there one? What do I do with the paradox of accepting my life-time human-nature of being flawed, while striving to do better? What's the meaning of this all? If I was mistaken about Jesus, what else am I mistaken about? What can I know - and what is worth knowing?"

4. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness. Considering that maybe, Jesus's life was a map to help guide us to be Christ-like. Seeing myself as I see the series of parables that represent Jesus... "likening" it all to me/us. Let's see, what did Jesus do that was noted that I may do to become more Christ-like?
  • *Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
    *Honored his parents, while honoring God.
    *Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
    *Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
    *Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
    *Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
    *Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
    *Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
    *Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."
This is a bit like Fowler's stages of Faith, except more specific to Christianity. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

The fault in your concept of 'scapegoat' is that all are personally responsible for their sins. A scapegoat is "the devil made me do it", not the atonement for mans sins provided by Jesus Christ.

I still ask people who Jesus Christ is and they can't say much about him. One thing they say is, well, he is on the wall in the chapel. I don't like that at all, but they don't seem to care.

Who is he to you? And what does "the Christ" mean to you? Is your view as to who or what "the Christ" means the same as the church's? If not, what is the difference.
dc

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David13
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by David13 »

Thinker wrote: January 16th, 2018, 12:26 pm I don’t pretend to have it all figured out, but I’m trying to ensure my foundation is firm - based on truth not deception, no matter how familiar that deception is. I’ve seen many people find out some crazy thing about the church &/or Christianity and then they freak out, crash & burn - tearing up families and lives. That doesn’t have to happen. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (so to speak). Realize just as there’s good and bad in everyone, there is also both in religious beliefs handed down. Take the best, leave the rest.

We cannot afford to have faith based on deception - because it will eventually crumble. Faith needs to be built on truth and the openness to seeking and incorporating truth “wherever it’s found.” Only then can we withstand the firey darts of the enemy.
Something tells me if I find truth anywhere it's going to be in this church. Not with every person, or every word, and certainly not with every operational policy, but as a general concept.
dc

And I don't think this church, or the people in it believe in reincarnation, either per se or by any other title.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Thinker wrote:
BruceRGilbert wrote: January 20th, 2018, 1:49 amI am addressing my remarks to you, Thinker as I perceive a catharsis in your actualization; a pivotal time.
Thanks for your consideration, Bruce. Yeah, I guess it's pivotal. Technically, it's been a few years since I had a faith crisis, but I do realize I have some major work to do and leaps to make.
One of the reasons that I got out of psychology, Thinker, was because - like you - I was very analytical. It got to the point that I would look for ulterior motives in peoples behavior. I found that I could not be "spontaneous" in a relationship because of "analysis paralysis." I was developing a basic mistrust of people in an attempt to understand them better than they did themselves. I couldn't take them at "face value." They weren't saying and acting "real" and it was a "facade" masquerading as something else in our "exchanges." It had started affecting all of my relationships. I came to realize, at least for myself . . . because it is a relative and not an absolute . . . that it was my "false religion." I found that "political correctness" and "ethics" did not permit me to tell someone who was engaged in voluntary "dysfunctional" behavior that the reason for their depression was due to sin. "Wickedness can never bring happiness." I made the mistake of "living in my head" and not being in touch with the real world. Cognition alone cannot resolve human weaknesses. Man is incapable of adding one cubit to his height. It doesn't work that way. In other words, no amount of meditation, pondering or thinking on an individuals part can resolve their blindness . . . but, feeling can. The solution and model to my personal quest for making a difference in the world and for others was right in front of me the whole time . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It involves "whole soul" effort, inclusive of the Mind (Thinking,) Heart (Feeling) and Body (Strength and Might.)

Although I really love psychology (and see it as inseparable to spirituality), I too, have been hesitant to focus on it as a career. I once taught a parenting class - I'm qualified I guess - right degree, I've parented, but I felt so much pressure to walk the talk perfectly. I felt like I needed to be a perfect parent, or else I was being hypocritical - and I just couldn't take the pressure so I finished the course and then didn't teach it again. I realize this is a flaw and not correct, but it's how I see and feel about it. And I've heard similar things of people in psychology and spiritual leadership roles - higher stats of depression etc.

Thinker, I love "REAL." I enjoy a conversation where people are honest and forthright. My perception of you is that you are very "intellectual" and because of that I feel that there are many "thinking" traps that have caused you dilemma. I understand because I have been there. Because of your expressed concern about being "hypocritical" and "perfect," I recognize that paradox, as well. It is a "cognitive" trap. I enjoyed that you spoke of loving yourself and others "warts and all." That is a step in the right direction . . . because we are all flawed and we are all hypocritical. We have all sinned and fallen short . . . it is where we are. Now, the difference between you and me versus a normal, run of the mill hypocrite is that you and I care that we are and we wish to change it. This, then, is part of "owning the paradox." Can you really be "whole and complete" er . . . "perfect" while being flawed and hypocritical? Bless your heart . . . yes, in a way you can . . . you can be perfectly (whole and complete) by being who you are . . . by "owning" the paradox that is you . . . and learning to appreciate your uniqueness . . . because believe me . . . of all the creations of God . . . there is not another like you . . . contextually nor in psyche. By "owning the paradox" that is you, you establish a baseline and a metric whereby through introspection and exposure to the Spirit, you can realize the transformation from the caterpillar to the butterfly . . . a blossoming, if you would.

I realize that emotional intelligence is important - (even more than IQ when it comes to "success"). I work on this by exploring feelings - even the most uncomfortable ones - and often as I put them in words, I can harmonize feeling and thought.

Ah, I am very leery of the conjunction of those two terms together . . . because they are not the same in my paradigm: "emotional intelligence." Who says that emotions have to be "intelligent?" That is not what emotions are about. Emotions and Intelligence are different things . . . Intelligence is about cognition and Emotions are about visceral reactions . . . "feelings." This is what I feel that you may be missing. There is a difference between "thinking something and feeling something." We need to be "both." We need to experience "both." One without the other is like hearing the lyrics of a song without the music or having an orchestra with only one instrument. You can control cognition . . . but you can only "shut down" and ignore emotion. This is the reason that I spoke about the blind person being unable to think their way into seeing the world . . . it can't be done . . . however, a blind person can learn to "see" the world by feel. Consider the miracle of Helen Keller. What I would have said according to my paradigm is that emotions have to be "experienced, acknowledged, explored and - most importantly - understood. Why do I feel the way that I do?"

A word about "success." I would invite you to consider another definition of success other than the one that you have formulated. What if success meant being "happy" instead of being "more of this" or "more of that?" Adam fell that man might be . . . men are that they might have joy. The object of your existence, Thinker, the whole point of "all of this stuff" is to learn to be content, happy and fulfilled. Have you asked yourself what that would entail? Are you at peace? Is everything "right" in your world?

The thing is that we are unable to mimic the "sign of the dove." The "resonance" and "harmony" of which I speak is not something that we "control." It is something that we experience. It is a "reward" for synchronicity with God's will.


I get the sense that I'm still missing something of what you were trying to tell me about the gospel of Christ involving whole soul effort. What am I missing?

We are told to love God with all of our "heart, might, mind, and strength." The heart denotes "feelings," the mind denotes "thoughts," the might and strength denotes "body." The "spirit" within us that is preserved through death consists of a consciousness of thoughts and feelings . . . the essence of our identity. Joseph Smith defined the soul as being the union of the body and the spirit . . . hence, the whole soul effort of loving and creating involves . . . heart, might, mind and strength." Within ourselves is a "euphemistic" universe of ether within which we can operate. It is ours to "spiritually" create things with our imaginations and live fantasies, if we wish it. Because "TRUTH" has been defined as a knowledge or "cognition" of things as they were, are and will be . . . truth ends up being "cognition" or "comprehension" of "structure" . . . or "order" be it sequential as in temporal (time) or combinational as in "spatial." (Forgive me for the diversion . . . it reminds me of a joke I heard in my earlier years and should like you to smile at this point. "Neurotics" build castles in the air, "Psychotics" inhabit them, and Psychologists collect the rent. Another? errr . . . Two Psychologists pass each other in the hall, one says to the other, "You're O.K.! How am I?") Well, the point that I would like to make is that there are two types of TRUTH; "relative" . . . meaning it is what is inside of a person, spiritually and "absolute" . . . meaning that which is outside of us in the physical world in which we all share . . . our "shared" reality is "God's" ether. We attain "resonance" and "oneness" when our relative truth becomes the same as the absolute truth and we know as we are known. To further aid in the comprehension of this . . . gravity is going to operate on my body regardless of whether I am conscious or not. Perception is only one aspect of reality . . . and, therefore, truth.
I concur with you, Thinker, that at a time in our growth and development we no longer need a "scapegoat," nor a "whipping boy" to take our punishment. I would suppose that it would be that time when we are Intellectually Honest and Mature, as well as Emotionally Honest and Mature to be responsible for our own selves. After we have received the "more sure word," whether by the Lord's voice or His servants, we become responsible for ourselves and the Savior becomes a personal Mentor. It is one thing to have "faith" and quite another to have "knowledge." It is one thing to be on probation, and quite another to be trusted. I wish I could share.
I'm glad you can relate and see the need of being more responsible for our own relationship to God and spiritual development. What do you mean by "more sure word"? I tend to believe that faith is the 1st and continuing principle of spirituality. The moment I think I "know" is when I shut myself off to learning more. However, I also see the need to put so much faith in some idea so that you can act on it - because faith without works is dead.

"When I was a child, I thought as a child, now that I am a man, I have put away childish things." When I was a child, I needed to have the security of knowing that I wasn't going to get a good paddling for being bad. There are consequences for bad behavior . . . and there comes a point in our progression when we become responsible for ourselves. It is after "the more sure word" of prophecy in knowing that God, in essence, trusts you. I recall being taught by the wife of a very close friend that initially living the Gospel was like passing through a "funnel" that is progressively necked down, but that there comes a time during "passage" that it progressively reopens . . . becoming an inverted funnel and allowing more "degrees of freedom." It is a "birthing" process. There comes a time when our "kanoggan" and "feeler" hatches.

This is being really blunt, but I think you'll understand and know I mean well in striving for clarity. Jesus, Heavenly Father and Mother (and for some in other religions angels, etc), serve as symbols for us to spiritually resonate. My idea of God when I pray as Heavenly Father and Mother is probably very limited compared to what God is really about, but I can only imagine what I can imagine at this time. Imagining Jesus as someone who saves me from my sins is in a way, kind of evil because it's trying to shift blame and make another pay instead of making at-one what I broke up, as much as I can. It's a bit like kids understanding Santa Clause before understanding the spirit of Christmas - Jesus is more concrete - and it's easier to worship or explore "the kingdom of God within." If I imagine Jesus to represent me and me following in his footsteps, then I am the one who is doing the soul-searching and in a way, taking on me the sins of the world - like the incorrect thoughts in collective unconscious culminating from centuries. And I am overcoming the/my world and progressing as intended.

Certainly, they can be this; however, I can assure you that they aren't "Mental Constructs." You will know this at some point in future. It has helped me to realize that the Savior is someone who wishes to help us gain and maintain our balance in the process of learning how to walk and negotiate the terrain of "other entities." Initially, like a Parent, who is teaching a child how to walk - knowing full well that we are going to fall flat on our rumps, He is attempting to help us gain the confidence and maturity that we need in order to be "successful" in attaining "our" endeavors. There will be a point when "our confidence will wax strong" and we will be able to negotiate "existence" amidst "uncertainty." It will be at that time when our acuity of perception . . . not only cognitively, but "viscerally" will allow us to pass through "darkness" when He is not there to steady us. Too, there is another aspect to this . . . we aren't "in it" just for ourselves. Of necessity due to our "thinking and feeling" like our "Mentor," we are to wage a "rescue" attempt in representing Him and being were He cannot be.

The more I explore all of this, the more I realize why Moses gave the 1st commandment he did about not having other gods before God. The temptation is overwhelming! Paul Tillech defined God as one's ultimate concern and explained that the God one claimed to worship was not as important as the god that one actually worshipped on a daily habitual basis. IE: For me, sometimes when I've been addicted to forums, it's been my highest priority - my ultimate concern. But I strive to make it love - as in appreciating what is, while striving for what's best through trial & error - active faith. Tillech challenged to find ultimate concern with the least element of idolatry. To me, this requires an openness to learning more - realizing that we will never know it all. But it also requires faith.
Ah, yes, and now it is my turn to be blunt. You mention "faith" a great deal - but, again, that is the one instrument or one tool, tool box that is not adequate for the "happy, joy, fulfillment" project. He, being REAL, has indicated, and you can read it right there at the end of the expose on LOVE in 1 Corinthians 13 and verse 28 of Ether 12, that the tool box should have a tool of the mind, called FAITH, a tool of the heart, called HOPE and a tool for the "whole soul" called LOVE or CHARITY. So I guess what I am saying is, Sister, your tool box is a little bleak for the project that you wish to undertake. Now, in case you are wondering . . . the FAITH and HOPE tools are initially to be used for your own preservation . . . but in a future time, they will be needed for and in behalf of your "REPRESENT/RESCUE" project . . . which, being "SYMBIOTIC" will be of great worth for ALL involved, including yourself. LOVE yourself first . . . warts and all . . . "paradox" and all and then . . . because you have learned to make allowances for yourself and your warts, you will be able to make allowances for others, as well.

Paradoxes have resolutions . . . and you have already "experienced" the irresistible force/immovable object one. Another one that pops up from time to time is: "Can God make a rock larger than He can lift?" If the answer is "yes," the conclusion is that God is not ALL POWERFUL. If the answer is "no," the conclusion is the same . . . God is not ALL POWERFUL. Well, I know that God is ALL POWERFUL and so I will give you the answer ;) He can if He wants to.

God bless you, Thinker. I hope you learn how to use your heart for "feeling" what HOPE feels like. I hope that you learn how to use your soul in service to others so that you will experience the indescribable joy of knowing that LOVE is the irresistible "real" force that binds and unifies God's creations together and most importantly, I hope that you come face to face with our Divine Mentor. Don't LOOK, FEEL.
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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Thinker, I have been doing some "ponderizing, reviewing, (re-reading what you and I have written,) wondering if I have addressed that which was helpful." (Certainly it is a cognitive AND "visceral" process. - Have you ever walked into a room and you could just feel the spirit of it? This could be due to the environment - the feng shui, motiff, aesthetics, decor - whatever you wish to ascribe it to or it could be the impression felt as a "left over" from a prior "engagement" between intelligent beings.) I engage this process when I wish to "discern." I have left some things "unsaid" that I wish to include.

Why is it important to "OWN" our failings? Why do we need to embrace our "paradoxical" selves? It has to do with being responsible for the space. In conjunction with thoughts that I expressed in a thread about "entanglement," (GENERAL DISCUSSIONS: Entanglement of virtue and intelligence.,) and in recognition that the "brain" and "heart" need constantly be "employed" . . . one for "leading" and the other for "accumulating" (sequential, combinational . . .temporal, spacial . . . "pressure, flow" . . . "electro, magnetic" . . .directive, attractive . . . presiding, nurturing) . . .(I hope you are beginning to glimpse "associations" and how analysis gives rise to better "vernacular" in description and better "understanding,") It would seem that "cognitively speaking," there are those who cannot be "whole" or "complete" because they haven't acquired the "space" that includes their "wholeness." I hope that this makes sense to you. One cannot overcome something that is not "bounded" by their space. They are not "integrated."

"The Sign of the Dove" refers to the "token" reception of the Holy Ghost as a concentrated feeling within the center of your being . . . "HEART" . . . that is an overwhelming sense of love, acceptance and peace that has been described as "fire" or "burning of the bosom." The effect of such an event is that of having received a "Heavenly, Divine" embrace of nurturing that signifies "approbation."

Learning to ask the right questions in order to "feel" God:

The "child" within grows to complexity. Initial queries of Deity ought to begin with the simple . . . and the "K.I.S.S." principle is at precedence here with a slight modification: the last letter stands for "Saint." In the beginning we are to ask simple "Yes or No" questions so that we can learn what that "Sign of the Dove" token is all about. Language development takes place later once mastery is attained by practice. A "yes" answer is attained by receiving "two" witnesses . . . the "mind and heart" witnesses. One being a "quickening of thoughts" and "enlightenment" providing "clarity" and "direction," (this is the "mind" part,) and the other being a "nurturing" of the heart and that inward "fiery" embrace of approbation.

More complex communications with Deity involve greater maturity. God cannot utilize "vernacular" that we are not familiar with. It just wouldn't make sense. God cannot "inspire" and "direct" in a "vacuum" when there is a void of His "constructs." One must acquire an understanding of God's constructs and this involves "familiarity." Not everyone understands what the "still, small voice is." They kinda expect what was happening on the Mount with Elijah:
1 Kings 19:9 ¶ And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire:
and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
If you will carefully notice . . . this account is reflexive. In the first verse given, it states that the word of the Lord came to him. He was asked, "What doest thou here, Elijah?" He responds, "I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts . . . ." Note what transpires in verse 13. Compare verses 10 and 14.

WHAT IS THE STILL, SMALL VOICE?

God will only speak in "physical" terms by wind, earthquake and fire if we do not hear Him in His "Spiritual" whisper. He uses a "still and small voice" that comes to us "spiritually" and within. It is heard with our "spiritual ears" and not our "physical" ones. God's word is "LIGHT." Because it is "Light" it comes to "ENLIGHTEN," first. It comes to our minds in the "Light of Christ" form, initially and that is to say that it is the voice of our conscience; One that I hope we are all familiar with. In our later maturity and discernment, it will take on its own "uniqueness."

Initially, the "conscience" may be considered an "Elias" to prepare the way, hence:
Mark 1:
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Now for the correlation:
Doctrine and Covenants 88:
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
So, naturally and initially, the conscience, originating from the wilderness of thought, will cry forth and remind us to "make our paths straight" in preparing for the way of the Lord, because His paths are straight. Hence, GUILT.

Amidst all of the "noise" and authors of thought; in the vast "wilderness" or our internal "ether" of consciousness, we have claimed this voice as our own. It is very familiar, I hope, to every one of us.

When we realize that our "conscience" can be so much more than a "path straightener," we will begin to recognize it for what it really is and develop our relationship with God.
2 Nephi 31:
3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
James 3:
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
May you continue on, Thinker, to the point of receiving revelation upon revelation. I hope that the way is clearly shown you. TO SEE YOU MUST FEEL.
Last edited by BruceRGilbert on January 23rd, 2018, 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Mercy, I did it again. Prompted for additional information. In another thread, (GOSPEL DISCUSSIONS: God's Perception of Intelligence), I wrote of Justification and Boundaries. In that presentation, mention was made of "soft" boundaries and "hard" boundaries of tolerance and degrees of freedom. We recognize that we are cognizant of 4 dimensions . . . 3 of which are "spatial" and of course the remaining one being "temporal" or "time." We have spoken about sequential and combinational "occupancy" of this "TELESTIAL" existence and are very aware of "soft boundaries" in our interactions in this state. God exists outside of "Time" and "Space" and for us . . . it is a "hard" boundary "dimensionally" to exist in the same "state" that He is in. We can't. It is impossible. We do not have the power, capability, nature, freedom, etc., etc. to do so. We experience GOD on HIS terms and not on our own. He intercedes in our state and is manifest however and whenever HE chooses. It just seemed important to include this.

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

Post by Finrock »

Bruce,

Lots of really good things in your posts. I hope many people read, ponder, think, and feel the message you are sharing. Thank you!

-Finrock

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Re: The idea of multiple mortal probations is agains the Atonement and resurrection

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brianj wrote: December 23rd, 2017, 1:30 pm
True wrote: December 23rd, 2017, 7:30 am Have you ever read through theJournal of Discourses? It’s basically conference addresses from the time they got to Salt Lake. It is in there. It has shown me that prophets can make mistakes. They are men. But this is still God’s church and Christ heads it. That much I know.
The Journal of Discourses is more than that. It is evidence that every six months we should kneel down and express deep gratitude for broadcast schedules. A brief review of the JD suggests that talks were only partially prepared at best. Those volumes imply that at least some church leaders would ramble on until they were tired of talking. Broadcast schedules for radio, TV, and now satellite force the church leaders to start and end on time instead of when they feel like it.
Yeah... it feels so much more by the spirit now that we can watch them read from a teleprompter which has their script. :?

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