Deleted

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Lizzy60 »

Mosiah 5:7

If we keep our covenants, we become sons and daughters of Christ. He will be our Father.

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Lizzy60 »

Did you look up Mosiah 5?

King Benjamin is specifically referring to those who are covenant-keepers, meaning those who have received their baptism of fire, which makes them spiritually born as sons and daughters of Christ. These are His (Christ's) sheep, the ones who are numbered unto Him, and who have been given to Him (Christ) by His father (who you refer to as Elohim).

There is no greater blessing than to be numbered as a son/daughter of Christ, and I don't believe it is possible to talk about Him, worship Him, or praise Him too much.

"I glory in my Jesus, for He hath redeemed my soul from hell". (Nephi)
Last edited by Lizzy60 on December 22nd, 2017, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

We are to receive the Holy Ghost first. The Holy Ghost brings us to Christ. Christ brings us to the Father. This is the pattern.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This is the end to which we endure. It is the way. When we enter in at the gate by receiving the Holy Ghost, it will show us all things what we should do (2 Nephi 31 & 32). When we receive Jesus Christ, He becomes our Father. This has been declared repeatedly in scripture, especially the Book of Mormon. How can we even know the Father without first knowing the Son?
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
We must first be spiritually begotten of Jesus Christ. Then He will bring us to the Father and both will make their abode with us.
Last edited by marc on December 22nd, 2017, 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

CelestialAngel wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 5:18 pm Now that Jesus Christ is resurrected is He on the same level as Heavenly Father?
I believe Joseph Smith addressed this in his King Follet's discourse. The Father will take a higher exaltation. I'll try and find it quickly.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

Found it: link

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by gardener4life »

I think it would be better to keep it simple. Don't complicate things by worrying to much over Heavenly Father's status going elsewhere or Jesus taking over.

Instead focus on this fact; Jesus is the mediator and the Redeemer. Its appropriate for us to get to know him because its like in a court the defense would meet with his counsel to be able to think on how to state his case and plead before the authority figure. We're being mentored by Christ in this life. At some point we'll be able to really get to know Heavenly Father better when we can handle being obedient and being consistent. We need to work on being strong enough to not fall away first, and work on how to be good without peeing our pants spiritually (sin).

If we were to know Heavenly Father while committing sins then it would take away the chance to have faith and repentance.

What we can understand is that Heavenly Father is a real person. Jesus is a real person. We can get closer to them based on what we can handle. Being good now will open up things for us to see and understand this better.

In answer to the original post, what we can do is try to open up the scriptures more at church. Now you are going to have be patient because people are working them to death at the same time and trying to go to church. They also have kids, their exhausted, and they are just trying to hang on. Satan tries to get them to be TOO TIRED to appreciate church. So people need help with getting their scriptures open and about being encouraged to love the scriptures, use them, and to avoid just stating opinions in meetings....though discussions are good.

But even better than scriptures if you can get people talking about how to love and serve one another without sin that's a good end goal and as good or better than getting the scriptures open.

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1562

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by sandman45 »

CelestialAngel wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 3:53 pm For some odd reason I feel the church somehow elevates Jesus Christ above Heavenly Father in sermons and conference talks, while Heavenly Father is Elohim, the Most High God. Shouldn't we focus more on Heavenly Father and speak about Him? Or is it that we just don't have enough information because I feel we should focus on returning to God and who God is and how much Heavenly Father loves us. This is nothing against Jesus, I just feel I don't hear enough about my loving Father.
Amen!!! I mentioned this in EQ when I taught.. I mentioned how when I was in primary (as a teacher of 7 year olds ) the primary presidency leaders would always say. “Jesus....and Heavenly Father “. Like an after thought of “oh yea him too”

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1562

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by sandman45 »

CelestialAngel wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 5:18 pm Now that Jesus Christ is resurrected is He on the same level as Heavenly Father?
Not yet. Daniel 7 says he comes to the ancient of days and the ancient of days then gives Christ a kingdom and glory etc.

So according to scripture he hasn’t received all yet

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1562

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by sandman45 »

marc wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 4:41 pm We are to receive the Holy Ghost first. The Holy Ghost brings us to Christ. Christ brings us to the Father. This is the pattern.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This is the end to which we endure. It is the way. When we enter in at the gate by receiving the Holy Ghost, it will show us all things what we should do (2 Nephi 31 & 32). When we receive Jesus Christ, He becomes our Father. This has been declared repeatedly in scripture, especially the Book of Mormon. How can we even know the Father without first knowing the Son?
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
We must first be spiritually begotten of Jesus Christ. Then He will bring us to the Father and both will make their abode with us.
Yes but not literal or spirit children. More like children of the atonement. The Father will still be our father and our god and Christ’s father and his god

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
While the term "spiritually begotten" is correct, it does not refer to us being Christ's "spirit children."

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by gardener4life »

marc wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 11:11 pm
Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
While the term "spiritually begotten" is correct, it does not refer to us being Christ's "spirit children."
There are many instances of similar scriptures like this throughout the standard works. I think the point is people realize...you know saying you care about someone doesn't do justice when you see they care more about their own kids more than someone on the street. But this satisfies that. Christ will really care about Heavenly Father's children as if they were his own. And also its a type of inheritance and symbolism of receiving the Celestial kingdom. This is a good thing and to be encouraged of liking and looking forward to scriptures like Mosiah 5:7.

Michelle
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Michelle »

CelestialAngel wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 3:53 pm For some odd reason I feel the church somehow elevates Jesus Christ above Heavenly Father in sermons and conference talks, while Heavenly Father is Elohim, the Most High God. Shouldn't we focus more on Heavenly Father and speak about Him? Or is it that we just don't have enough information because I feel we should focus on returning to God and who God is and how much Heavenly Father loves us. This is nothing against Jesus, I just feel I don't hear enough about my loving Father.
I fear your latest string of posts will leave you with a stomachful of camels, but at least you are dodging those gnats.

User avatar
Jonesy
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1530
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Jonesy »

Michelle wrote: December 23rd, 2017, 5:48 pm I fear your latest string of posts will leave you with a stomachful of camels, but at least you are dodging those gnats.
Then help a brother out. He’s probably trying to figure things out like the rest of us.

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by gardener4life »

I do think there would be more talk about Heavenly Father if people would really put their hearts into BEING at church, instead of being on their electronic devices. A lot of people are not using them for scriptures.

User avatar
Lyster
captain of 100
Posts: 157
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Lyster »

I tend to use said device at times when feeling especially uninspired, such as now, when I should be hearing all kinds of Christian goodies, but am instead being lectured on the history of select hymns...


Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Lizzy60 »

JackBuckeye wrote: December 24th, 2017, 12:23 pm Elder McConkie's council: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/
This talk by McConkie is not in harmony in many ways with the Book of Mormon. I'll take scripture, especially the plain and simple doctrine in the Book of Mormon, over a church leader who was attempting to quash the teaching of a very popular BYU religion professor.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

And yet six years earlier on October 1976, in General Conference, James E. Faust said:
There is a great humility and timidity in my soul as I presume to speak about coming to a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of the world and the Son of God...

...Recently in South America, a seasoned group of outstanding missionaries was asked, “What is the greatest need in the world?” One wisely responded: “Is not the greatest need in all of the world for every person to have a personal, ongoing, daily, continuing relationship with the Savior?” Having such a relationship can unchain the divinity within us, and nothing can make a greater difference in our lives as we come to know and understand our divine relationship with God...

...By sanctifying yourselves, the day will come when “he will unveil his face unto you.” (D&C 88:68.) “If your eye be single to [His] glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.” (D&C 88:67.)...

...It is my testimony that we are facing difficult times. We must be courageously obedient. My witness is that we will be called upon to prove our spiritual stamina, for the days ahead will be filled with affliction and difficulty. But with the assuring comfort of a personal relationship with the Savior, we will be given a calming courage...A Personal Relationship with the Savior
Joseph Smith had much more to say about the subject. Jesus Christ personally admonishes each of us to rend the veil and know Him.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by marc »

It's interesting to me that Bruce R. McConkie's talk at BYU had such an impact on George W. Pace who gave a contrasting talk years earlier: What it means to know Christ. From Wikipedia, we read:
In 1982, Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle in the LDS Church, presented a televised sermon at BYU that was interpreted as an attack on Pace's book, What It Means to Know Christ.[12] In his sermon, McConkie did not mention Pace or his book by name,[13] though he excerpted a quote which he called "plain sectarian nonsense", and warned against developing a special spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, apart from the Holy Ghost and God the Father. McConkie felt this was a "gospel hobby" that could lead to "an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude" or "despondence". McConkie said he didn't intend to "downgrade" Jesus, but to teach true doctrine and warn his audience.[14] McConkie later claimed he wasn't singling out or specifically thinking of Pace, but was warning against a general trend of "extreme behavior" of born-again type experiences.[15]

According to his son, Pace was personally devastated and saw this as a public condemnation and rebuke. He removed his book from the market, lost his church position as stake president, and had a dramatic drop in class enrollment.[12][16] Pace issued a formal apology in which he stated that his opinions may be misinterpreted, and he was glad that McConkie had clarified the issues. Pace wanted "to stay in the mainstream of the Church" and remain loyal to its leadership.[6] In contrast, Pace's son cited the controversy as disillusioning him toward his religious leaders and motivating him to leave the LDS Church.[16]
As much as I admired BRM when I was a young missionary, his declarations contrary to the notion of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ were incorrect. George Pace had it right. And so did the many BoM prophets who testified the same. James E. Faust had it right, too. Joseph Smith had it right. Heck, even Brigham Young said it:
The greatest and most important of all requirements of our Father in Heaven and of his Son Jesus Christ...is to believe in Jesus Christ, confess him, seek him, cling to him, make friends with him. Take a course to open a communication with your Elder Brother or file-leader—our Savior.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 339.)
I could go on, but I already have in so many topics.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Thinker »

There’s a reason why the 1st of the basic, lower-law 10 commandments is “Thou shalt have no other gods.” Having other gods is so extremely tempting!

And there’s a reason why Jesus warned against deifying him, and why he repeatedly said to follow him & that we can do all he did and more! Unfortunately his writing have been twisted to make him to be “GOoD Master,” idolized pictures of him in places of worship & people use Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat on a pedestal way too high to “follow.” Such ideas may help one feel better and relate to an extent- but at the cost of genuine spiritual development.

Still, it’s understandable that it’s easier to relate with a personification of spirituality than a God who is less easy to label and pinpoint and harder to superficially relate to.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Robin Hood »

On a personal note, I don't generally like the term "Heavenly Father".
People use it as a name and often in the wrong context.
I much prefer "God" or "Father in Heaven".
I know... I'm weird.

The context in which many members use the term "Heavenly Father" sounds so baby-ish sometimes.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: I fear there is not enough talk about Heavenly Father in the church

Post by Thinker »

Robin Hood wrote: January 1st, 2018, 1:53 am On a personal note, I don't generally like the term "Heavenly Father".
People use it as a name and often in the wrong context.
I much prefer "God" or "Father in Heaven".
I know... I'm weird.

The context in which many members use the term "Heavenly Father" sounds so baby-ish sometimes.
No that's not so weird, lol of course it's coming from someone who has taken it as a compliment and challenge to be as weird as I can - life's short! :)
I've actually thought that at times too - but I think it's also because "Heavenly Father" seems a bit ignor-ant - ignoring Heavenly Mother.
And I don't know about you, but my parents considered it being sarcastically rude to call them, "Mother" or "Father."
Then again, "Heavenly Dad" doesn't sound quite right.

I generally think of God as last name for a Mr. and Mrs.... and when I hear Jesus worshipped, I try to imagine God in his place.

Oh, and while we're on this topic... I do find it kind of funny that we have culturally required Elizabethian English to speak to God - "thou" and "thee." Weird as I am, I still use it sometimes when I pray - but I get it that it's more cultural than what God's about.

Post Reply