The Only True Tax Plan

[Arenera]

The GOP is giving us a new tax plan, the greatest in decades, for 2018. Is it the Only True Tax Plan?

FOR INDIVIDUAL FILERS

1. Lowers (many) individual rates: The bill preserves seven tax brackets, but changes the rates that apply to: 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35% and 37%.

Today's rates are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, 35% and 39.6%.

Here's how much income would apply to the new rates:
-- 10% (income up to $9,525 for individuals; up to $19,050 for married couples filing jointly)
-- 12% (over $9,525 to $38,700; over $19,050 to $77,400 for couples)
-- 22% (over $38,700 to $82,500; over $77,400 to $165,000 for couples)
-- 24% (over $82,500 to $157,500; over $165,000 to $315,000 for couples)
-- 32% (over $157,500 to $200,000; over $315,000 to $400,000 for couples)
-- 35% (over $200,000 to $500,000; over $400,000 to $600,000 for couples)
-- 37% (over $500,000; over $600,000 for couples)

2. Nearly doubles the standard deduction: For single filers, the bill increases it to $12,000 from $6,350 currently; for married couples filing jointly it increases to $24,000 from $12,700.

The net effect: The percentage of filers who choose to itemize would drop sharply, since the only reason to do so is if your deductions exceed your standard deduction.

3. Eliminates personal exemptions: Today you're allowed to claim a $4,050 personal exemption for yourself, your spouse and each of your dependents. Doing so lowers your taxable income and thus your tax burden. The GOP tax plan eliminates that option.

For families with three or more kids, that could mute if not negate any tax relief they might get as a result of other provisions in the bill.

4. Caps state and local tax deduction: The final bill will preserve the state and local tax deduction for anyone who itemizes, but it will cap the amount that may be deducted at $10,000. Today the deduction is unlimited for your state and local property taxes plus income or sales taxes.

The SALT break has been on the book for more than a century. The original House and Senate GOP bills sought to repeal it entirely to help pay for the tax cuts, but that met with stiff resistance from lawmakers in high-tax states.

Residents in the vast majority of counties across the country claim an average SALT deduction below $10,000, according to the Tax Foundation. So for low- and middle-income families who currently itemize because of their SALT deduction, they're likely to take the much higher standard deduction under the bill if it becomes law, unless their total itemized deductions, including SALT, top $12,000 if single or $24,000 if married filing jointly.

Preserving the break -- albeit with a cap -- is likely to provide more help to higher income households in high-tax states.

5. Expands child tax credit: The credit would be doubled to $2,000 for children under 17. It also would be made available to high earners because the bill would raise the income threshold under which filers may claim the full credit to $200,000 for single parents, up from $75,000 today; and to $400,000 for married couples, up from $110,000 today.

Like the first $1,000 of the child tax credit, $400 of the additional $1,000 also will be refundable, meaning a low- or middle-income family will be able get the money refunded to them if their federal income tax liability nets out at zero.

Even with the additional $400 in refundability, however, 10 million children from working low-income families would receive only an additional $75 in benefit under the bill, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities estimates.

6. Creates temporary credit for non-child dependents: The bill would allow parents to take a $500 credit for each non-child dependent whom they're supporting, such as a child 17 or older, an ailing elderly parent or an adult child with a disability.

7. Lowers cap on mortgage interest deduction: If you take out a new mortgage on a first or second home you would only be allowed to deduct the interest on debt up to $750,000, down from $1 million today. Homeowners who already have a mortgage would be unaffected by the change.

The bill would no longer allow a deduction for the interest on home equity loans. Currently that's allowed on loans up to $100,000.

8. Curbs who's hit by AMT: Earlier bills called for the elimination of the Alternative Minimum Tax. The final version keeps it, but reduces the number of filers who would be hit by it by raising the income exemption levels to $70,300 for singles, up from $54,300 today; and to $109,400, up from $84,500, for married couples.

9. Preserves smaller but popular tax breaks: Earlier versions of the bill had proposed repealing the deductions for medical expenses, student loan interest and classroom supplies bought with a teacher's own money. They also would have repealed the tax-free status of tuition waivers for graduate students.

The final bill, however, preserves all of these as they are under the current code. And it actually expands the medical expense deduction for 2018 and 2019.

10. Exempts almost everybody from the estate tax: Unlike the House GOP bill, the final bill does not call for a repeal of the estate tax.

But it essentially eliminates it for all but the smallest number of people by doubling the amount of money exempt from the estate tax -- currently set at $5.49 million for individuals, and $10.98 million for married couples. Even at today's levels, only 0.2% of all estates ever end up being subject to the estate tax.

11. Slows inflation adjustments in tax code: The bill would use "chained CPI" to measure inflation, which is a slower measure than is used today. The net effect is your deductions, credits and exemptions will be worth less -- since the inflation adjusted dollars defining eligibility and maximum value would grow more slowly. It also would subject more of your income to higher rates in future years than would be the case under the current code.

12. Eliminates mandate to buy health insurance: There would no longer be a penalty for not buying insurance. While long a goal of Republicans to get rid of it, the measure also would help offset the cost of the tax bill. It is estimated to save money because it would reduce how much the federal government spends on insurance subsidies and Medicaid.

The Congressional Budget Office expects fewer consumers who qualify for subsidies will enroll on the Obamacare exchanges, and fewer people who are eligible for Medicaid will seek coverage and learn they can sign up for the program.

But policy experts also note that the mandate repeal could raise premiums because more healthy people might decide to skip buying insurance.

FOR BUSINESSES AND CORPORATIONS

13. Lowers tax burden on pass-through businesses: The tax burden on owners, partners and shareholders of S-corporations, LLCs and partnerships -- who pay their share of the business' taxes through their individual tax returns -- would be lowered by a 20% deduction, somewhat less than the 23% called for in the Senate-passed bill.

The 20% deduction would be prohibited for anyone in a service business -- unless their taxable income is less than $315,000 if married ($157,500 if single).

14. Includes rule to prevent abuse of pass-through tax break: If the owner or partner in a pass-through also draws a salary from the business, that money would be subject to ordinary income tax rates.

But to prevent people from recharacterizing their wage income as business profits to get the benefit of the pass-through deduction, the bill would place limits on how much income would qualify for the deduction.

Tax experts nevertheless have warned that this kind of anti-abuse measure still presents taxpayers with a lot of opportunities to game the system, and favors passive owners of a business over active owners who actually run things.

15. Slashes corporate rate: The bill cuts the corporate rate to 21% from 35%, starting next year. That's somewhat higher than the 20% called for earlier. The increase was made to free up some revenue to accommodate lawmaker demands on other provisions. The bill would also repeal the alternative minimum tax on corporations.

16. Change how U.S. multinationals are taxed: Today U.S. companies owe Uncle Sam tax on all their profits, regardless of where the income is earned. They're allowed to defer paying U.S. tax on their foreign profits until they bring the money home.

Many argue that this "worldwide" tax system puts American businesses at a disadvantage. That's because most foreign competitors come from countries with territorial tax systems, meaning they don't owe tax to their own governments on income they make offshore.

The final GOP bill proposes switching the U.S. to a territorial system. It also includes a number of anti-abuse provisions to prevent corporations with foreign profits from gaming the system.

In the meantime it would require companies to pay a one-time, low tax rate on their existing overseas profits -- 15.5% on cash assets and 8% on non-cash assets (e.g., equipment abroad in which profits were invested), slightly higher than the rates in the Senate- and House-passed bills.

[JK4Woods]

Its just sleigh of hand and smoke and mirrors.

Actual taxes collected by the Government don't go down, and the bloated bureaucracy doestn't get slimmer.

All in all, its just another partisan plan the other side hates.

Gov't Politicians and all department heads don't want actual spending to lower from current levels.
No-one has the intestinal fortiude to actually cut Gov't programs across the board by 5% in real spending, and stop budget growth as pegged to inflation. That's what would really free up money...

[Arenera]

Its just sleigh of hand and smoke and mirrors.

Actual taxes collected by the Government don't go down, and the bloated bureaucracy doestn't get slimmer.

All in all, its just another partisan plan the other side hates.

Gov't Politicians and all department heads don't want actual spending to lower from current levels.
No-one has the intestinal fortiude to actually cut Gov't programs across the board by 5% in real spending, and stop budget growth as pegged to inflation. That's what would really free up money...

This is what will affect most Americans:

Here's how much income would apply to the new rates:
-- 10% (income up to $9,525 for individuals; up to $19,050 for married couples filing jointly)
-- 12% (over $9,525 to $38,700; over $19,050 to $77,400 for couples)
-- 22% (over $38,700 to $82,500; over $77,400 to $165,000 for couples)
-- 24% (over $82,500 to $157,500; over $165,000 to $315,000 for couples)
-- 32% (over $157,500 to $200,000; over $315,000 to $400,000 for couples)
-- 35% (over $200,000 to $500,000; over $400,000 to $600,000 for couples)
-- 37% (over $500,000; over $600,000 for couples)

Nearly doubles the standard deduction: For single filers, the bill increases it to $12,000 from $6,350 currently; for married couples filing jointly it increases to $24,000 from $12,700.

The net effect: The percentage of filers who choose to itemize would drop sharply, since the only reason to do so is if your deductions exceed your standard deduction.

A lot less people itemizing.

Also, your tax would jump from 12% to 22%, or 10% more, if you make over $101,400.

[Joel]

I have never seen a progressive tax system that I have liked.

[Ezra]

How is it that we as a nation were able to pay off our national debt at one point in our history with 0% income tax????


That is the “real” true tax plan. One that didn’t involve stealing a persons property.

1%-100% income tax rate is always 100% theft.

No one has a “right” to take away my property no matter how many people voted that “they” think it’s ok.

That is slavery.

[captainfearnot]

Does this affect tithing at all?

Charitable donations are still deductible, it's just that with the standard deduction doubling, fewer people will itemize deductions. That creates less incentive to donate to charity.

In my experience, the tax deduction doesn't really factor in to most LDS members' tithing decisions, so I wouldn't expect it to have much of an impact. As far as charitable giving goes, I'm guessing LDS tithing is less "elastic" than most.

[Arenera]

I have never seen a progressive tax system that I have liked.

Let's consider Zion, where there is no poor.

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

Would not the Law of Consecration apply to Zion, where all you have is the Lord's?

A straight tax plan, say 10% (like tithing) everyone would pay 10%:
Family making $10,000 would pay $1,000. They would have $9,000 for all other necessities.
Family making $1,000,000 would pay $100,000. They would have $900,000 for all other necessities.
If consecration is in play:
Since the family making 1 million needs $150,000 for necessities, they would give $750,000 to help the poor.
The poor family would receive $141,000 from the generous rich family. Both families are happy.

Let's look at the progressive tax plan:

-- 10% (income up to $9,525 for individuals; up to $19,050 for married couples filing jointly)
-- 12% (over $9,525 to $38,700; over $19,050 to $77,400 for couples)
-- 22% (over $38,700 to $82,500; over $77,400 to $165,000 for couples)
-- 24% (over $82,500 to $157,500; over $165,000 to $315,000 for couples)
-- 32% (over $157,500 to $200,000; over $315,000 to $400,000 for couples)
-- 35% (over $200,000 to $500,000; over $400,000 to $600,000 for couples)
-- 37% (over $500,000; over $600,000 for couples)
Nearly doubles the standard deduction: For single filers, the bill increases it to $12,000 from $6,350 currently; for married couples filing jointly it increases to $24,000 from $12,700.

A family making $10,000, having a standard deduction of $24,000, would not pay any taxes.

The family making $1,000,000, with a standard deduction of $24,000, would pay $361,120, leaving $638,880 for necessities.

Is this not helping the poor?

With the progressive plan, you do have to pay more. You say forced.

With consecration you give it all up.

[Ezra]

I have never seen a progressive tax system that I have liked.

Let's consider Zion, where there is no poor.

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

Would not the Law of Consecration apply to Zion, where all you have is the Lord's?

A straight tax plan, say 10% (like tithing) everyone would pay 10%:
Family making $10,000 would pay $1,000. They would have $9,000 for all other necessities.
Family making $1,000,000 would pay $100,000. They would have $900,000 for all other necessities.
If consecration is in play:
Since the family making 1 million needs $150,000 for necessities, they would give $750,000 to help the poor.
The poor family would receive $141,000 from the generous rich family. Both families are happy.

Let's look at the progressive tax plan:

-- 10% (income up to $9,525 for individuals; up to $19,050 for married couples filing jointly)
-- 12% (over $9,525 to $38,700; over $19,050 to $77,400 for couples)
-- 22% (over $38,700 to $82,500; over $77,400 to $165,000 for couples)
-- 24% (over $82,500 to $157,500; over $165,000 to $315,000 for couples)
-- 32% (over $157,500 to $200,000; over $315,000 to $400,000 for couples)
-- 35% (over $200,000 to $500,000; over $400,000 to $600,000 for couples)
-- 37% (over $500,000; over $600,000 for couples)
Nearly doubles the standard deduction: For single filers, the bill increases it to $12,000 from $6,350 currently; for married couples filing jointly it increases to $24,000 from $12,700.

A family making $10,000, having a standard deduction of $24,000, would not pay any taxes.

The family making $1,000,000, with a standard deduction of $24,000, would pay $361,120, leaving $638,880 for necessities.

Is this not helping the poor?

With the progressive plan, you do have to pay more. You say forced.

With consecration you give it all up.

You are truly ignorant of gods plan vs Satan’s plan aren’t you.

Force of government (gunpoint) to make people take care of the poor and needy and to have things in common is Satan’s plan.

If done completely by the choice and will of the individuals involved that is gods plan.


How is it with so many people on this forum explaining this simple concept you are unable to understand? The prophets have also defined it the same way.

What is your purpose for trying to seduce other to see Satan’s plan as gods?

[Ezra]

Quotes from our prophets against your blatantly wrong position.

Pres. Spencer W Kimball Aug 7, 1976 Deseret News
We don’t believe in government welfare systems! We teach our people to be thrifty, so that if they get into financial trouble they can look to their family, then to the church, but NEVER to the government.


David O McKay March 14, 1953 Church News; PPNS p. 346-7; Awakening To Our Awful Situation p. 75
I shall raise my voice as long as God gives me sound or ability, against the communistic idea that the government will take care of us all, and that everything belongs to the government. … It is wrong! No wonder, in trying to perpetuate that idea that men become anti-Christ, because those teachings strike directly at the doctrines of the Savior. No government owes you a living. You get it yourself by your own acts. …

Howard W Hunter March 8, 1966 BYU Devotional
Under a free enterprise economy, little more than 6% of the world population has produced nearly half of the world’s goods. We can today best wage a war on poverty by working on the roots of prosperity, not by sapping their vital strength. To sap the self-reliant spirit of enterprising independent souls in the development of a welfare state can bring only “poverty equally divided”. When the responsibility for their won welfare is completely shifted from the shoulders of individuals and families to the state, a lethal blow is struck at both the roots of our prosperity and our moral growth. What is the real cause of this trend toward the welfare state, toward more socialism? …it is personal unrighteousness.

Pres. David O McKay Nov 2, 1964 Deseret News; An Enemy Hath Done This p. 296; PPNS p. 378
As a matter of general policy the BYU Board of Trustees has long adhered to a position opposed to general federal aid to education. We have always objected to the Church or any of its branches or agencies receiving any subsidy or gift from the government. …We have steadfastly refused to participate in any federal educational program which is based upon the subsidy principle.

Ezra Taft Benson An Enemy Hath Done This p. 115
Rome began to tax everything that could be taxed, and to regulate everything that could be regulated; even to the load that could be carried on an @#$. … They put names on the public payroll until a third of the citizens of Rome were on the national payroll and that republic collapsed. A dictatorship followed until the fat accumulated during the days of the republic had been consumed, and then the empire fell. “In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security, a comfortable life, and they lost all. The Athenians wished most for was freedom from responsibility; the Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.” (Edith Hamilton)

Thomas Jefferson This Nation Shall Endure p. 98; Ezra Taft Benson
To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must take our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.

Spencer W Kimball April 1963 CR
In the Book of Mormon we see people taxed from 50 percent, and then to totalness, to slavery, and to bondage. He will see power-greedy, paternalistic, centralized governments move toward the inevitable revolution which finally impoverishes but frees the people to begin again from ashes.


J Reuben Clark Jr Jan 24 1945 PPNS p. 322-323
Our fears that our old age would find us penniless and in want have been played upon, and we have been persuaded that the state would care for us in our old age, we forgetting that this would make of the nation one great poorhouse. We are not through with that technique… This is state socialism; it is not democracy, it is not the concept of a republic. History is repeating itself. Esau being hungry, sold his birthright to Jacob for a mess of pottage. We are a nation of Esau’s… We shall come into post-war American in substantial part…regimented for a socialized state and government which deifies the state and makes men its slaves.


Slavery must suit you Arenera


Howard W Hunter March 8 1966 BYU Devotional
If you deprive a man of his right to fail in the righteous use of his property, you also deprive him of his right to succeed. If you remove from a man his right to: go to hell” you likewise remove his free agency to go to heaven. Satan’s entire philosophy is based on a “something for nothing” philosophy; Salvation without effort…A free gift. This counterfeit doctrine was rejected by God our Father. Our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ, accepted our Father’s plan and agreed to pay the infinite price to become our Savior and Redeemer and to show us the way back to the Father. The way is often the hard way. It is the Law of the Harvest.

George Albert Smith CR-10/49:171-2 PPNS p.343
We must not fall into the bad habits of other people. We must not get into the frame of mind that we will take what the other man has. Refer back to the ten commandments, and you will find one short paragraph, “Thou shalt not covet.” That is what is the matter with a good many people today. They are coveting what somebody else has, when as a matter of fact, many of them have been cared for and provided with means to live by those very ones from whom they would take away property.

Spencer W Kimball CR-4/50:41-2
As President McKay was talking about the freedoms which we seem ever more eager to exchange for bread, my thoughts went back to old Israel, who, becoming hungry, went south to Egypt and found corn. That corn tasted so good to them that they continued eating the corn of another people. Eventually they accepted the grain and the security it symbolized in full payment for their liberty. Chains and abject slavery came to them and to their children and their children’s children. Their suffering accelerated in intensity until a great Moses, under God, came to emancipate them. Thank the Lord for a deliverer! But how much nobler if people could accept the advice of God’s leaders before the bondage comes!


Ezra Taft Benson An Enemy Hath Done This p. 136 The Law pp. 21, 26 PPNS p.377
How is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime…

Can you understand what he is saying?? Would you like me to explain?????????????????


The government gets its powers from the people. If the individuals don’t have a power neither does the government.

As an individual I cannot go to my neighbors and demand they pay for my children’s schooling, or their health or to pay for their food. Their retirement.

It’s theft. It’s Coercion. It would make them a slave to a slave master.

By government doing this it is still theft. Still slavery. It many people coming together to using unrighteous dominion over there fellow men and women.


I challenge you arenera to use scripture and the words of prophet to support your extremely weak wrong position. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vision]

leaving $638,880 for necessities.Is this not helping the poor?

Arenera. Giving $638K to the government does not translate into $638K going to the poor. The poor don't need bombs, fighter jets, tanks, and humves's. The poor don't need the EPA, NSA, TSA, CPFB and all the other bureaucracies tax payers money is used for.

The poor need charity and the government does not understand charity, other wise they wouldn't collect taxes under the threat of violence.

[Arenera]

I challenge you arenera to use scripture and the words of prophet to support your extremely weak wrong position. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do I have to repeat this scripture for you?

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

How do you interpret this scripture?

[gardener4life]

I challenge you arenera to use scripture and the words of prophet to support your extremely weak wrong position. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do I have to repeat this scripture for you?

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

How do you interpret this scripture?

I also want to add my 2 cents and support the idea that too many people are wrestling the scriptures against their real meaning. A certain someone above just did a twisted and manipulative view that taking care of the poor is Satan's plan. That is absolutely unbelievable that you would try to slip that in there. You can find many places in the scriptures where it says if you push the beggar out to perish, or the person in need, or chase the poor out from among you that the judgments of God will be upon you.

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Proverbs 28:3 A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food.

2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

2 Nephi 13:14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people and the princes thereof; for ye have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the poor in your houses.

2 Nephi 9:30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also. (Wo is bad btw if you didn't know that.)

Helaman 4:11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them, would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God.
12 And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding riches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the poor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek, making a mock of that which was sacred, denying the spirit of prophecy and of revelation, murdering, plundering, lying, stealing, committing adultery, rising up in great contentions, and deserting away into the land of Nephi, among the Lamanites—
13 And because of this their great wickedness, and their boastings in their own strength, they were left in their own strength; therefore they did not prosper, but were afflicted and smitten, and driven before the Lamanites, until they had lost possession of almost all their lands.

[Ezra]

I challenge you arenera to use scripture and the words of prophet to support your extremely weak wrong position. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do I have to repeat this scripture for you?

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

How do you interpret this scripture?

Apparently you do not know what free means.

It means they are free. As in no force. Not at gun point. Not at the threat of imprisonment. They were all free to take part of the heavenly gift of agency.

How is it that you suppose all of those prophets of god misinterpreted it to mean the opposite of the truth they were teaching???????? That government taxation is theft and slavery???

That scripture goes hand in hand with the teachings by all those prophets against taxation

[Ezra]

I challenge you arenera to use scripture and the words of prophet to support your extremely weak wrong position. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do I have to repeat this scripture for you?

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

How do you interpret this scripture?

I also want to add my 2 cents and support the idea that too many people are wrestling the scriptures against their real meaning. A certain someone above just did a twisted and manipulative view that taking care of the poor is Satan's plan. That is absolutely unbelievable that you would try to slip that in there. You can find many places in the scriptures where it says if you push the beggar out to perish, or the person in need, or chase the poor out from among you that the judgments of God will be upon you.

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Proverbs 28:3 A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food.

2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

2 Nephi 13:14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people and the princes thereof; for ye have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the poor in your houses.

2 Nephi 9:30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also. (Wo is bad btw if you didn't know that.)

Helaman 4:11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them, would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God.
12 And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding riches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the poor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek, making a mock of that which was sacred, denying the spirit of prophecy and of revelation, murdering, plundering, lying, stealing, committing adultery, rising up in great contentions, and deserting away into the land of Nephi, among the Lamanites—
13 And because of this their great wickedness, and their boastings in their own strength, they were left in their own strength; therefore they did not prosper, but were afflicted and smitten, and driven before the Lamanites, until they had lost possession of almost all their lands.

Not a single person, prophet or person on this forum has even suggested that taking care of the poor is somehow Satan’s plan.

Satan’s plan is to use “force” or unrighteous dominion to take care of the poor. As well as any other good thing.

The use of force is Satan’s plan.

Not taking care of the poor is always wrong. Using Satan’s plan to do so makes it where none gets the heavenly reward of if they did it on their own. There is no place in heaven for those who were forced to do the right thing according to our own prophets.

Thanks for quoting scriptures that go hand in hand with what our prophets have taught about the need to take care of the poor and not by government force but by their own desire to help them. By being anxiously engaged in that good cause. By not needing to be commanded in all things or forced.

[Arenera]

Apparently you do not know what free means.

It means they are free. As in no force. Not at gun point. Not at the threat of imprisonment. They were all free to take part of the heavenly gift of agency.

How is it that you suppose all of those prophets of god misinterpreted it to mean the opposite of the truth they were teaching???????? That government taxation is theft and slavery???

That scripture goes hand in hand with the teachings by all those prophets against taxation

It isn't free agency, just agency. You make choices.

It is Dec, 2017. The Republicans just passed a "sweeping" tax bill. Did your Senators and Congress people vote for it?

Doesn't matter, it becomes law on 1/1/2018.

With your agency, you can support the bill by paying the taxes if you get a paycheck, or run a business.

You can complain about it. You can vote for different senators, congress people, and president. If the people you vote for are not elected, well, that is how it works in the Telestial United States.

[Vision]

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

How do you interpret this scripture?

Just a thought on this scripture. Does the word common mean equal in all things, or does it mean that everyone has housing, not all the house's are the same size and shape?

com·mon
ˈkämən/Submit
adjective
1.
occurring, found, or done often; prevalent.
"salt and pepper are the two most common seasonings"
synonyms: usual, ordinary, familiar, regular, frequent, recurrent, everyday; More
2.
showing a lack of taste and refinement; vulgar.
synonyms: uncouth, vulgar, coarse, rough, boorish, unladylike, ungentlemanly, ill-bred, uncivilized, unrefined, unsophisticated; More
3.
shared by, coming from, or done by more than one.
"the two republics' common border"
4.
GRAMMAR
(in Latin and certain other languages) of or denoting a gender of nouns that are conventionally regarded as masculine or feminine, contrasting with neuter.
5.
PROSODY
(of a syllable) able to be either short or long.
6.
LAW
(of a crime) of relatively minor importance.
"common assault"
noun
noun: common; plural noun: commons
1.
a piece of open land for public use, especially in a village or town.
2.
(in the Christian Church) a form of service used for each of a group of occasions.

[Arenera]

Not a single person, prophet or person on this forum has even suggested that taking care of the poor is somehow Satan’s plan.

Satan’s plan is to use “force” or unrighteous dominion to take care of the poor. As well as any other good thing.

The use of force is Satan’s plan.

Not taking care of the poor is always wrong. Using Satan’s plan to do so makes it where none gets the heavenly reward of if they did it on their own. There is no place in heaven for those who were forced to do the right thing according to our own prophets.

Thanks for quoting scriptures that go hand in hand with what our prophets have taught about the need to take care of the poor and not by government force but by their own desire to help them. By being anxiously engaged in that good cause. By not needing to be commanded in all things or forced.

Did Jesus answer your question?

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Cæsar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Cæsar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

[Ezra]

Apparently you do not know what free means.

It means they are free. As in no force. Not at gun point. Not at the threat of imprisonment. They were all free to take part of the heavenly gift of agency.

How is it that you suppose all of those prophets of god misinterpreted it to mean the opposite of the truth they were teaching???????? That government taxation is theft and slavery???

That scripture goes hand in hand with the teachings by all those prophets against taxation

It isn't free agency, just agency. You make choices.

It is Dec, 2017. The Republicans just passed a "sweeping" tax bill. Did your Senators and Congress people vote for it?

Doesn't matter, it becomes law on 1/1/2018.

With your agency, you can support the bill by paying the taxes if you get a paycheck, or run a business.

You can complain about it. You can vote for different senators, congress people, and president. If the people you vote for are not elected, well, that is how it works in the Telestial United States.

51% of wolfs voting for what’s for dinner does not somehow make it gods plan. It’s not agency to have someone else decide how much of your property you will give to them because they voted for you to do so.

I don’t pay taxes by ensuring I am exempt from them. (An easy process). Because that is the best way to withdraw my support. As well as withdraw the ability for lazy individuals from living off of me.

I also give to the poor and needy and have money to do so.

It doesn’t matter if it becomes law. It’s still legal plunder and wrong. It’s unrighteous dominion over your fellow men.

[Ezra]

Not a single person, prophet or person on this forum has even suggested that taking care of the poor is somehow Satan’s plan.

Satan’s plan is to use “force” or unrighteous dominion to take care of the poor. As well as any other good thing.

The use of force is Satan’s plan.

Not taking care of the poor is always wrong. Using Satan’s plan to do so makes it where none gets the heavenly reward of if they did it on their own. There is no place in heaven for those who were forced to do the right thing according to our own prophets.

Thanks for quoting scriptures that go hand in hand with what our prophets have taught about the need to take care of the poor and not by government force but by their own desire to help them. By being anxiously engaged in that good cause. By not needing to be commanded in all things or forced.

Did Jesus answer your question?

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Cæsar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Cæsar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

Rendering money to the governing body for defense and roads and so on is one thing.

God also said

D&c 98
4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

( I command them) he didn’t say follow any law man makes.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.


(Anything more or less then following constitutional law of the land will Cometh evil. )

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.


We have wicked men who rule. Why??

Mosiah 7

15 For behold, we are in bondage to the Lamanites, and are taxed with a tax which is grievous to be borne. And now, behold, our brethren will deliver us out of our bondage, or out of the hands of the Lamanites, and we will be their slaves; for it is better that we be slaves to the Nephites than to pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites.

Tax is bondage.

Again how did we as a nation pay off our national debt with a 0% income tax????

Wouldn’t you rather have a 0% income tax? So you had the money to take care of the poor?

Only paying attention to one scripture and ignoring the rest does not paint a entire picture.

Understanding the constitution. A document created by god d&c 101:80 helps out greatly. A few of our prophets have said that to them the constitution is like scripture.

The constitution that god made is very specific on which ways it can collect money for the purpose of maintaining the freedoms of the people.

When you go beyond that scope you move into tyrannical power. You move into law that will only bring about evil. Bring about unrighteous dominion.

We are beyond that scope now.

Howard W Hunter March 8, 1966 BYU Devotional
Under a free enterprise economy, little more than 6% of the world population has produced nearly half of the world’s goods. We can today best wage a war on poverty by working on the roots of prosperity, not by sapping their vital strength. To sap the self-reliant spirit of enterprising independent souls in the development of a welfare state can bring only “poverty equally divided”. When the responsibility for their won welfare is completely shifted from the shoulders of individuals and families to the state, a lethal blow is struck at both the roots of our prosperity and our moral growth. What is the real cause of this trend toward the welfare state, toward more socialism? …it is personal unrighteousness.


The government sucks at everything it does. It’s terribly inefficient. It takes it cut off the top of a job that is Guaranteed regardless of performance. How can that be the best option for the poor?

The government has had a war on drugs for a few decades now. With an insane amount of money spent to that cause. How has that turned out?? More drugs on the streets now then there was when it started.

Government is not the answer. Government is the problem.

[Arenera]

The government sucks at everything it does. It’s terribly inefficient. It takes it cut off the top of a job that is Guaranteed regardless of performance. How can that be the best option for the poor?

The government has had a war on drugs for a few decades now. With an insane amount of money spent to that cause. How has that turned out?? More drugs on the streets now then there was when it started.

Government is not the answer. Government is the problem.

And your solution is?

[Ezra]

The government sucks at everything it does. It’s terribly inefficient. It takes it cut off the top of a job that is Guaranteed regardless of performance. How can that be the best option for the poor?

The government has had a war on drugs for a few decades now. With an insane amount of money spent to that cause. How has that turned out?? More drugs on the streets now then there was when it started.

Government is not the answer. Government is the problem.

And your solution is?

Return to righteousness. The scriptures say to.

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms--
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.

Teach others in morality in righteousness and in the correct principles of agency found in the constitution.

There has to be a change of heart and understanding in order for this county to return back to being constitutional. That’s part of following the above commandments given to us to teach other to bring that change in heart. It’s just doing our part.

But I believe our prophets and scripture has already told us of what it will take to regain the lost freedoms.

Blood.


J Reuben Clark PPNS p.89 CR April 1944 An Enemy Hath Done This p.310
I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of this church will, in order to keep the church going forward, have more sacrifices to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known, heavy as our sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been…If we do not vigorously fight for our liberties, we shall go clear through to the end of the road and become another Russia, or worse…(He added that is the conspiracy ever completely takes over America, and destroys our freedom by instituting a police state) it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this church of ours…

Wilford Woodruff JD vol. 21 p. 301 August 1, 1880
I ask myself the question, “Can the American nation escape?” The answer comes, “No.” Its destruction as well as the destruction of the world is sure; just as sure as the Lord cut off and destroyed the two great and prosperous nations that once inhabited this continent of North and South America, because of their wickedness, so will He them destroy, and sooner or later they will reap the fruits of their own wicked acts, and be numbered among the past.

There is a parable in d&c 101. It’s the only parable you will find in d&c. Starts at vs 43-78.
It’s very telling of what is to come. Keep in mind that the Book of Mormon is the tower and the hedge is the constitution.

[Arenera]

The government sucks at everything it does. It’s terribly inefficient. It takes it cut off the top of a job that is Guaranteed regardless of performance. How can that be the best option for the poor?

The government has had a war on drugs for a few decades now. With an insane amount of money spent to that cause. How has that turned out?? More drugs on the streets now then there was when it started.

Government is not the answer. Government is the problem.

And your solution is?

Return to righteousness. The scriptures say to.

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms--
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.

Teach others in morality in righteousness and in the correct principles of agency found in the constitution.

There has to be a change of heart and understanding in order for this county to return back to being constitutional. That’s part of following the above commandments given to us to teach other to bring that change in heart. It’s just doing our part.

But I believe our prophets and scripture has already told us of what it will take to regain the lost freedoms.

Blood.


J Reuben Clark PPNS p.89 CR April 1944 An Enemy Hath Done This p.310
I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of this church will, in order to keep the church going forward, have more sacrifices to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known, heavy as our sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been…If we do not vigorously fight for our liberties, we shall go clear through to the end of the road and become another Russia, or worse…(He added that is the conspiracy ever completely takes over America, and destroys our freedom by instituting a police state) it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this church of ours…

Wilford Woodruff JD vol. 21 p. 301 August 1, 1880
I ask myself the question, “Can the American nation escape?” The answer comes, “No.” Its destruction as well as the destruction of the world is sure; just as sure as the Lord cut off and destroyed the two great and prosperous nations that once inhabited this continent of North and South America, because of their wickedness, so will He them destroy, and sooner or later they will reap the fruits of their own wicked acts, and be numbered among the past.

There is a parable in d&c 101. It’s the only parable you will find in d&c. Starts at vs 43-78.
It’s very telling of what is to come. Keep in mind that the Book of Mormon is the tower and the hedge is the constitution.

Well, I checked with the manual, and it doesn’t agree with your thought on the wall.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:43–75
The Lord gives the parable of the nobleman and the olive trees and admonishes the Saints to continue the work of gathering

Read Doctrine and Covenants 101:43–62, looking for what the Lord taught about the redemption of Zion through the parable of the nobleman and the olive trees.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:43–62. The parable of the nobleman and the olive trees

The parable of the nobleman and the olive trees is unique to the Doctrine and Covenants, though it shares similarities with parables taught by Isaiah and Jesus Christ (see Isaiah 5:1–7; Matthew 21:33–46). The Lord used the parable to explain why the Saints had been driven from the land of Zion and to reveal His will concerning Zion’s redemption.

The Lord compared the land of Zion in Jackson County, Missouri, to a choice piece of land owned by a nobleman. The nobleman’s instruction to his servants to plant 12 olive trees upon this land can represent the Lord’s commandment to the Saints to establish settlements in Zion (see D&C 57:8, 11, 14). Setting watchmen around the olive trees may represent the calling of Church leaders and officers to guide the Saints in Zion. Anciently, watchmen on a wall or tower had the responsibility to protect cities, as well as vineyards and fields, by warning of impending danger from enemy attacks (see Ezekiel 33:1–6). The scriptures liken the Lord’s prophets and leaders to watchmen (see Isaiah 62:6; Jeremiah 6:17; Ezekiel 3:17; 33:7). Through revelation these watchmen are able to see the enemy from afar and can warn the Saints of coming danger.

The interpretation of the tower in the parable is not clear. It may represent the temple that the Lord commanded the Saints to build in Jackson County (see D&C 57:2–3; 84:1–5; 97:10–12). More broadly, the tower may represent Zion, which the Saints could build up only by obeying the Lord’s commandments (see D&C 101:11–12; 105:3–6). In the parable, the servants of the nobleman “began to build a tower,” but afterward “they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord” (D&C 101:46, 50). Consequently, their enemies scattered them and destroyed their work.

In the parable, the nobleman commanded a servant to gather “the strength of [his] house” and go to the land of his vineyard and redeem it (D&C 101:55). The servant represents the Prophet Joseph Smith (see D&C 103:21–22). In obedience to the Lord’s commandment, the Prophet organized the Camp of Israel (later referred to as Zion’s Camp) to redeem Zion and restore the Saints to their lands and homes (see D&C 103:29–40).

The parable foreshadowed that some time would elapse between the Camp of Israel and Zion’s eventual redemption. When the servant asked the nobleman when the vineyard would be redeemed, the nobleman responded, “When I will” (see D&C 101:59–60). The parable concludes by saying that “after many days all things were fulfilled” (D&C 101:62). In a later revelation that disbanded the Camp of Israel, the Lord explained why the Saints were to “wait for a little season” for the redemption of Zion (D&C 105:9; see D&C 105:1–19).

Read Doctrine and Covenants 101:63–75, looking for what the Lord taught the Saints about the work of gathering.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:63–66. “I must gather together my people”

After giving the parable of the nobleman and the olive trees, the Lord explained His will “concerning all the churches,” meaning all of the congregations of Latter-day Saints (D&C 101:63). He instructed the Saints to continue “gathering together” so that He could “build them up unto [His] name upon holy places” (D&C 101:64). The Lord promised to “gather together [His] people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares” (D&C 101:65). Tares are harmful weeds that look similar to wheat when they are young, but they can be distinguished from wheat once they mature. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the wheat represents faithful members of the Church and the tares represent the wicked who are scattered among them (see Matthew 13:24–30, 36–43; D&C 86:1–7).

The Lord likened the gathering of His people to the gathering of wheat into “garners” (D&C 101:65). Anciently, wheat was gathered into garners, or granaries, to safely store and protect it. While speaking about Alma 26:5, in which Ammon refers to “sheaves,” or bundles of grain, being “gathered into the garners,” Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught, “The garners are the holy temples” (“Honorably Hold a Name and Standing,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 97). Members of the Church receive protective blessings and are prepared for celestial glory and eternal life as they gather to the Lord’s holy temples to receive saving ordinances and enter into covenants for themselves and on behalf of their ancestors.

The Prophet Joseph Smith (1805–1844) taught: “What was the object of gathering the … people of God in any age of the world? … The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby He could reveal unto His people the ordinances of His house and the glories of His kingdom, and teach the people the way of salvation” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 416).

For more explanation of the parable of the wheat and the tares, see the commentary for Doctrine and Covenants 86:1–7 in this manual.

In what ways has gathering to the temple to worship, serve, and receive saving ordinances helped protect and prepare you for eternal life with your Heavenly Father?

[Ezra]

I said nothing about a wall. What are you talking about?

Is there only one lesson to be learned from a parable???

2 nephi 28:30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.


When the manual says.


“The interpretation of the tower in the parable is not clear. It may represent ”

Means they are giving one possible meaning.

The more you think on it the more you ponder it the more the lord can instruct you further.

Read the parable with the tower representing the Book of Mormon and the hedge the constitution.


See what you get from it.

Or are you the type who

2 nephi 28:27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

2 nephi 28:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

The point of thinking and pondering on scriptures in different ways is to have the spirit instruct you.

When the end of the parable ends with.

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

You should know or a least have a pretty good guess that God is talking the constitution in the parable in some way.

But there is always more then one lesson to be learned from parables.

I am interested on what your take is on the parable with those things in mind. It made it much easier to understand for me when my bishop suggested to read it with that in mind.