Taking away God's gender?

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Fiannan
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Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:24 am

he Church of Sweden is encouraging its clergy to use the gender-neutral term "God" instead of referring to the deity as "he" or "the Lord".

The decision was made on Thursday, wrapping up an eight-day meeting of the church's 251-member decision-making body. The decision will take effect on May 20 during Pentecost.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -gendered/

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Lyster » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:06 am

Our semi-adoptive-parental-figure-of-mind (for thou canst not be spirit, for spirit exists not, and thou canst not be flesh for we cannot be the offspring of that which we cannot see) that we give the neutral term of God unto,

we thank thee that thou didst not choose to abort us (which would have been ideal for thee) in our pre-adopted state of creation, whence thou didst set in motion the plan of evolution long ago by way of the Big Bang, though thou couldst not have aborted us for we were not in existence,

give unto us this day our daily bread by the virtue of others' work (preferably those who are white, and especially so if they are straight and male),

and forgive us not, for it is not needed.

-- The Jesus-person's prayer of neutrality and equality

Did I miss anything?

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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 am

The Swedish Church does not believe in an anthropomorphic male god anyway, so this change in language does not imply any change in their doctrine.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 am

inho wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 am
The Swedish Church does not believe in an anthropomorphic male god anyway, so this change in language does not imply any change in their doctrine.
This particular video explains what the left is pushing today...maybe even in your children's classrooms. Language does matter and the people on the left know it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc-bkUP8zew&t=7s
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby mcusick » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 am

inho wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 am
The Swedish Church does not believe in an anthropomorphic male god anyway, so this change in language does not imply any change in their doctrine.
Good point. Most people and churches do not believe in an literal embodied gendered god.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:30 am

mcusick wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 am
inho wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 am
The Swedish Church does not believe in an anthropomorphic male god anyway, so this change in language does not imply any change in their doctrine.
Good point. Most people and churches do not believe in an literal embodied gendered god.
And as the video demonstrates (link above) the goal of the left is that human beings will no longer see gender and sex differences as literal.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:35 am

I don't see the decision of the Swedish Church as part of the leftist agenda to erase gender. In fact, if I believed in a genderless god, I would consider the Swedish Church resolution to be a positive thing.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:58 am

inho wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:35 am
I don't see the decision of the Swedish Church as part of the leftist agenda to erase gender. In fact, if I believed in a genderless god, I would consider the Swedish Church resolution to be a positive thing.
So God looks like a Ken doll?
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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:42 am

Fiannan wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:58 am
inho wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:35 am
I don't see the decision of the Swedish Church as part of the leftist agenda to erase gender. In fact, if I believed in a genderless god, I would consider the Swedish Church resolution to be a positive thing.
So God looks like a Ken doll?
Not according to me. However, most Christians don't believe that God has a human form at all. We Mormons are an exception.

If the aim was to erase gender from the teachings of a Christian church, then a radical measure to take would be to downplay the part Jesus has. One could talk about God without talking about God's male incarnation.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby passionflower » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 pm

Since the scriptures constantly refer to God as a "He" and during the most famous prayer of all says, " Our Father who art in Heaven". Yes a lot, A LOT would change in Christendom if God became genderless. It wouldn't really be Christianity anymore.

If I asked the catholic bishop at the cathedral down the street if God was a man, I am sure he would say "yes". Throughout my mission I never met any Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran or Episcopalian who did not automatically assume God was male and a Father figure to all.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 am

passionflower wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 pm
Since the scriptures constantly refer to God as a "He" and during the most famous prayer of all says, " Our Father who art in Heaven". Yes a lot, A LOT would change in Christendom if God became genderless. It wouldn't really be Christianity anymore.

If I asked the catholic bishop at the cathedral down the street if God was a man, I am sure he would say "yes". Throughout my mission I never met any Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran or Episcopalian who did not automatically assume God was male and a Father figure to all.
Most Christians think that God is transcendent, meaning that God is wholly independent of the material universe. One cannot grasp what God is, thus one cannot assign God a gender.

Wikipedia:
Gender of God in Christianity

God has traditionally been described using masculine terms in Christian scripture and theology. While this has sometimes given rise to the idea that Christians consider God to be male, the majority of Christian denominations (with the notable exception of Mormonism) accept a God who transcends gender.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Thinker » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:49 am

I have been very passionate about defending marriage between a man & a woman and in defending children who are being hurt by homosexual and transgender dysfunction.

However, I believe God is like a Surname of BOTH Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother. When I pray, (besides in church where it might be distracting) I pray to both. To me, motherhood is as much, if not more creative as fatherhood is. One aspect I appreciate about some polytheistic religions is the honor of representations of aspects of Heavenly Mother (as well as HF). Catholicism honors Mary as if HM - not doctrinally but in practice.

So in an ideal world, I’d prefer God be referred to as both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. That’s a bit long - so “God” works too.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:46 am

Most Christians think that God is transcendent, meaning that God is wholly independent of the material universe. One cannot grasp what God is, thus one cannot assign God a gender.
And thus why what we call Christianity is more akin to Hellenism than to the Bible. In fact, in a way one has to agree with this guy:
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Sirocco » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:50 am

Sweden is a vile mess
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby passionflower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:00 am

inho wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 am
passionflower wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:36 pm
Since the scriptures constantly refer to God as a "He" and during the most famous prayer of all says, " Our Father who art in Heaven". Yes a lot, A LOT would change in Christendom if God became genderless. It wouldn't really be Christianity anymore.

If I asked the catholic bishop at the cathedral down the street if God was a man, I am sure he would say "yes". Throughout my mission I never met any Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran or Episcopalian who did not automatically assume God was male and a Father figure to all.
Most Christians think that God is transcendent, meaning that God is wholly independent of the material universe. One cannot grasp what God is, thus one cannot assign God a gender.

Wikipedia:
Gender of God in Christianity

God has traditionally been described using masculine terms in Christian scripture and theology. While this has sometimes given rise to the idea that Christians consider God to be male, the majority of Christian denominations (with the notable exception of Mormonism) accept a God who transcends gender.
I am pretty dang sure that the definition of the Trinity is FATHER, Son and Hoiy Ghost. My point being that making God genderless is a huge change for the Lutheran church there in Sweden. Much of the Bible would have to be rewritten, prayers, rites, just a whole lot of stuff. And the government is dictating this change. Another reason that a separation of church and state is so important.

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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:20 am

passionflower wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:00 am
And the government is dictating this change. Another reason that a separation of church and state is so important.
I must have missed something. How did the government dictate this? I thought the church was revising its handbook from its own initiative.

The Sweden is on its way to the separation of church and state. Swedish church lost its status as a state church in 2000. I think it still has some special privileges, though.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby passionflower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:32 pm

inho wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:20 am
passionflower wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:00 am
And the government is dictating this change. Another reason that a separation of church and state is so important.
I must have missed something. How did the government dictate this? I thought the church was revising its handbook from its own initiative.

The Sweden is on its way to the separation of church and state. Swedish church lost its status as a state church in 2000. I think it still has some special privileges, though.
OK, you could be right on that, and I will throw in with you on that one. I assumed Lutheranism was still the state supported and state controlled religion. My mistake.

But my real point is that remaking God into a genderless being will have a huge impact, and a very very negative one. This is not just some little thing where you could say "they always believed this anyway so what's the big deal? " No, they didn't always believe this. They never did. Just because they don't see God as anthropomorphic doesn't mean they don't see God as a HE.

The Nicene Creed states upfront: "We believe in one God, the FATHER almighty, the maker of heaven and earth......." And the Lutherans accept that and say the same thing in their own Apostles' Creed, and pretty much all Protestant Christianity follows this.

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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:49 pm

I think that if you asked an average Christian if God is a he, the Christian would answer without hesitation 'yes', since God is always talked about with male words.
However, if you asked instead if God has a gender, the average Christian would probably just think that the question is weird, since in his/her mind God is something abstract and transcends gender.

Also, it is good to point out that the Swedish Church is not banning male words. They encourage the use of the gender-neutral terms and offer a gender neutral alternative to use in the start of the worship: instead of "In the name of the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit," the priest may say "In the name of God, the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit" or "In the name of the triune God". Their new handbook still uses male words in many instances.

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby JohnnyL » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:58 pm

inho wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:20 am
passionflower wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:00 am
And the government is dictating this change. Another reason that a separation of church and state is so important.
I must have missed something. How did the government dictate this? I thought the church was revising its handbook from its own initiative.

The Sweden is on its way to the separation of church and state. Swedish church lost its status as a state church in 2000. I think it still has some special privileges, though.
Interesting last part. It's possible to have separation, but "not really." Taiwan has no official religion, but it does have an unofficial one. They get government compliance, police help, parking officer help, traffic control, immunity for many things, etc. No one will say anything against it. And it's considered in all decisions.

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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:43 am

JohnnyL wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:58 pm
inho wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:20 am
The Sweden is on its way to the separation of church and state. Swedish church lost its status as a state church in 2000. I think it still has some special privileges, though.
Interesting last part. It's possible to have separation, but "not really." Taiwan has no official religion, but it does have an unofficial one. They get government compliance, police help, parking officer help, traffic control, immunity for many things, etc. No one will say anything against it. And it's considered in all decisions.
"Not really" is the type of separation they have in Sweden.
Wikipedia:
Although the status of state religion came to an end, the Church of Sweden nevertheless remains Swedens national church, and as such is still regulated by the government through the law of the Church of Sweden. Therefore, it would be more appropriate to refer to a change of relation between state and church rather than a separation. Furthermore, the Swedish constitution still maintain that the Sovereign and the members of the royal family has to confess an evangelical Lutheran faith, which in praxis means they need to be members of the Church of Sweden to remain in the line of succession.

Separation of church and state: Sweden

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby sandman45 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm

Thinker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:49 am
I have been very passionate about defending marriage between a man & a woman and in defending children who are being hurt by homosexual and transgender dysfunction.

However, I believe God is like a Surname of BOTH Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother. When I pray, (besides in church where it might be distracting) I pray to both. To me, motherhood is as much, if not more creative as fatherhood is. One aspect I appreciate about some polytheistic religions is the honor of representations of aspects of Heavenly Mother (as well as HF). Catholicism honors Mary as if HM - not doctrinally but in practice.

So in an ideal world, I’d prefer God be referred to as both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. That’s a bit long - so “God” works too.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/ ... lang=eng#4

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Thinker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:13 pm

sandman45 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm
Thinker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:49 am
I have been very passionate about defending marriage between a man & a woman and in defending children who are being hurt by homosexual and transgender dysfunction.

However, I believe God is like a Surname of BOTH Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother. When I pray, (besides in church where it might be distracting) I pray to both. To me, motherhood is as much, if not more creative as fatherhood is. One aspect I appreciate about some polytheistic religions is the honor of representations of aspects of Heavenly Mother (as well as HF). Catholicism honors Mary as if HM - not doctrinally but in practice.

So in an ideal world, I’d prefer God be referred to as both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. That’s a bit long - so “God” works too.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/ ... lang=eng#4
Hey, Sandman, once in a while someone shares something at the perfect time and it feels like a priceless gift - as with the scriptures you just shared. Thanks. So much meaning that touches in several principles I’ve been thinking about. Maybe I ought to pray to both in church - of course it’s best to please God above people - but as we love others, we love God. I can’t help but wonder if in praying differently than orthodox, it might seem disrespectful to people - or people would focus so much on the newness and miss the spirit of the prayer. I don’t know. Praying in our own family how I feel most appropriate has been met with plenty of opposition in itself. The scripture says to avoid vain repetition- yet in the church - aspects of prayers are very much “standard.” Anyway - as mentioned, prayer is primarily between God and the pray-er. :)

Another aspect I love from those scriptures is the power I’ve experienced in Jesus’s suggested way of praying. There is power in some of those words!

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby skmo » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:50 pm

More proof that Sweden has used up all of its value in creating ABBA and has nothing of value left to contribute to civilization.
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sandman45
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby sandman45 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:26 pm

Thinker wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:13 pm
sandman45 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm
Thinker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:49 am
I have been very passionate about defending marriage between a man & a woman and in defending children who are being hurt by homosexual and transgender dysfunction.

However, I believe God is like a Surname of BOTH Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother. When I pray, (besides in church where it might be distracting) I pray to both. To me, motherhood is as much, if not more creative as fatherhood is. One aspect I appreciate about some polytheistic religions is the honor of representations of aspects of Heavenly Mother (as well as HF). Catholicism honors Mary as if HM - not doctrinally but in practice.

So in an ideal world, I’d prefer God be referred to as both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. That’s a bit long - so “God” works too.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/ ... lang=eng#4
Hey, Sandman, once in a while someone shares something at the perfect time and it feels like a priceless gift - as with the scriptures you just shared. Thanks. So much meaning that touches in several principles I’ve been thinking about. Maybe I ought to pray to both in church - of course it’s best to please God above people - but as we love others, we love God. I can’t help but wonder if in praying differently than orthodox, it might seem disrespectful to people - or people would focus so much on the newness and miss the spirit of the prayer. I don’t know. Praying in our own family how I feel most appropriate has been met with plenty of opposition in itself. The scripture says to avoid vain repetition- yet in the church - aspects of prayers are very much “standard.” Anyway - as mentioned, prayer is primarily between God and the pray-er. :)

Another aspect I love from those scriptures is the power I’ve experienced in Jesus’s suggested way of praying. There is power in some of those words!
Welcome. I agree about vain repetition. I try so hard to teach my kids but every time we pray over food or before bed or family scripture most of them do that repetitive prayer just to hurry and get it over with lol. I see it in the church too and st times there are some great prayers that are not repetitive

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inho
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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby inho » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:33 am

skmo wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:50 pm
More proof that Sweden has used up all of its value in creating ABBA and has nothing of value left to contribute to civilization.
Herreys came after ABBA. And to top it all, they were Mormons. :D

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Silver Pie » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:43 pm

Fiannan wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:24 am
Thoughts?
According to the scriptures, God is both male and female, as one cannot become a God without being married. It doesn't matter what someone says about them. They can call God "It" all they want, it doesn't make it so.
Toni

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Re: Taking away God's gender?

Postby Fiannan » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:47 pm

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